This loss to Rockets deserves a separate thread....how???
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic    LakersGround.net Forum Index -> LA Lakers Lounge Reply to topic
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
LakersNewEra
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 16 Apr 2014
Posts: 1526
Location: Vancouver BC

PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:00 am    Post subject: This loss to Rockets deserves a separate thread....how???

I know DB does great work and all but still this isn't just another game. There is something bigger at play here and I just feel basketball as a sport has left me behind. I need those that follow non stop and that understand x's and o's etc to tell me how does this happen and what does this tell us. How do we with all our size lose to a team that starts a 6'5" P.J Tucker and doesn't have a player taller bigger than him? Tell me how.
They have won last what like 10 games playing this way, they look much better without Capella and I just need an explanation. How the heck is that possible.

I know basketball has changed a lot. It's smaller, 3pt shot is everything, I get all that. I was talking to a friend about the Andre Drummond deal and I said look I just don't know what his value is now. 20 years ago he'd be the MVP with his style of play. A better Ben Wallace. But today? I just dunno.

So yeah those of you that have expert level knowledge, please, explain this stuff to me. Thanks.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Theseus
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Posts: 13855

PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:44 am    Post subject:

We played to their strategy, and its not a style we play well at since we very rarely do it. Its one of those things that bites you in the butt on the course of a season, but for the playoffs its much easier with all the game-planning and practicing you do to combat an odd style.

Dwight Howard and McGee barely played. I think that was a bad decision. I know that their smalls are going to flop on any and all contact against our bigs and refs fall for that all the time, but we can't play down to their level.

All their flopping is tough to deal with too. You'll see Harden and Westbrook make strong moves with creating contact, but other times they will flop around when they get any contact. Its difficult to get a feel for when you see it sparingly, since basketball is a rhythm/feel game.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
LakersRGolden
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 13 Jan 2002
Posts: 7909
Location: Lake Forest

PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:47 am    Post subject:

The one 7 footer we played was floating outside the key. Size doesn't do much on the perimeter.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Nobody
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 13 Sep 2008
Posts: 5699
Location: Ljubljana, Slovenia

PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:59 am    Post subject:

Teams also consistently zone us since we have nobody outside of KCP who can consistently hit the three. 50+ games in and it doesn't seem that our boys know how to combat a zone, which is inexcusable for a high level NBA team.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
miggz23
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 29 Nov 2018
Posts: 6564

PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:34 am    Post subject:

Nobody wrote:
Teams also consistently zone us since we have nobody outside of KCP who can consistently hit the three. 50+ games in and it doesn't seem that our boys know how to combat a zone, which is inexcusable for a high level NBA team.


Well if we continue to play Rondo/Caruso/Lebron line up... Expect to see a lot of teams zoning us up. It gives Lebron no driving lanes and prevents him from posting up also. We actually have a pretty decent PG who can shoot in Cook, but for some reason he is glued in the bench cause of Rondo? That's why I don't get, he was a very serviceable off the bench guy for a championship team before. It's not like the dude is some scrub.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
venturalakersfan
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 14 Apr 2001
Posts: 144432
Location: The Gold Coast

PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 7:45 am    Post subject:

I guess because the OP started this thread
_________________
RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
LakerSD
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 10 Nov 2016
Posts: 23731

PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 7:53 am    Post subject:

Combination of factors:

1. The modern game of spacing
2. The Lakers bigs aren’t Shaq or Olajuwon in the post. They get bothered by small pesky defenders
3. The Lakers don’t shoot well enough. It was going to be a blowout if DG didn’t hit those big 3s before half.
4. Lakers defense was basically non-existent and had trouble sorting out full time small ball rockets.
5. The offense stagnated a lot and you can’t do that against a 3 point heavy team.

Remains to be seen if the rockets style will work over 7 games with scouting, film, etc. but imo the biggest concern from this game is undersized guys are able to neutralize the Lakers big lineups and that’s no bueno when you have AD and Lebron. It’s not only Harrell, but now it’s guys like Tucker, Sefolosha and even a skinny wing like Covington.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
cencio_999
Starting Rotation
Starting Rotation


Joined: 12 Nov 2019
Posts: 264

PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:06 am    Post subject:

The short x&o answer is: vogel's gameplan was awful.

The long answer is:
Deciding to double harden sistematically with HOU playing 5 out put even much pressure on our defensive rotations, exposing more our bigs on the perimeter, especially McGee.

So vogel gave up and followed MDA small ball instead of imposing our lenght.

There were other choiches from vogel that were unexplicable to me (e.g. Kuzma on westbrook, rondo 15 minutes), but what above was the main issue
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
scout0_0
Starting Rotation
Starting Rotation


Joined: 06 Jul 2019
Posts: 918

PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:20 am    Post subject:

cencio_999 wrote:
The short x&o answer is: vogel's gameplan was awful.

The long answer is:
Deciding to double harden sistematically with HOU playing 5 out put even much pressure on our defensive rotations, exposing more our bigs on the perimeter, especially McGee.

So vogel gave up and followed MDA small ball instead of imposing our lenght.

There were other choiches from vogel that were unexplicable to me (e.g. Kuzma on westbrook, rondo 15 minutes), but what above was the main issue



Rondo -15

blame it on archaic ball
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
dont_be_a_wuss
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 29 Mar 2012
Posts: 21415

PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:29 am    Post subject:

The team continues to look unrehearsed. When we threw double teams at the Rockets, trapped, pressed, they often made two quick passes leading to an open three, and they did it with such precision that it was almost like they had been practicing that sort of thing. I rarely get that feeling watching the Lakers offense.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
DrDent
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 30 Jun 2016
Posts: 12975

PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:30 am    Post subject:

LakerSD wrote:
Combination of factors:

1. The modern game of spacing
2. The Lakers bigs aren’t Shaq or Olajuwon in the post. They get bothered by small pesky defenders
3. The Lakers don’t shoot well enough. It was going to be a blowout if DG didn’t hit those big 3s before half.
4. Lakers defense was basically non-existent and had trouble sorting out full time small ball rockets.
5. The offense stagnated a lot and you can’t do that against a 3 point heavy team.

Remains to be seen if the rockets style will work over 7 games with scouting, film, etc. but imo the biggest concern from this game is undersized guys are able to neutralize the Lakers big lineups and that’s no bueno when you have AD and Lebron. It’s not only Harrell, but now it’s guys like Tucker, Sefolosha and even a skinny wing like Covington.


Not that I disagree with point 2 but im wondering if part of the issue is AD last night concerned a foul would be called. Remember his backdown on Tucker post move? He got an easy dunk, but Tucker flopped, and the entire Rocket team jumped up and screamed it was a foul (altho no foul was called). Considering its the Rockets who have a reputation of getting calls I wonder if that made AD more hesitant to do that again as I dont recall it happening after. It was one of those standard go to moves shaq did that we dont really see anymore in part cuz of the “modern nba”.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Four Decade Bandwagon
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 18 Jul 2014
Posts: 8127

PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:40 am    Post subject:

dont_be_a_wuss wrote:
The team continues to look unrehearsed. When we threw double teams at the Rockets, trapped, pressed, they often made two quick passes leading to an open three, and they did it with such precision that it was almost like they had been practicing that sort of thing. I rarely get that feeling watching the Lakers offense.


Probably because the Lakers offense is one dimensional and easier to defend, most of the time.

What exactly is the offense? Rebound and pass to James. Take away the quick run out pass and the Lakers get mired into a half court James-centric dribble the ball outside the 3pt line offense. Waiting for him to make a drive or launch a long 3pt shot as the clock expires.

On a good night it works, they win, against focused and talented teams it turns into the TOs and bad contested 3pt shots.

Also why the team struggles so much with him on the bench. It is difficult to duplicate that greatness or to suddenly switch to an alternative offense. As an example, how smooth does a T. Brady or P. Mahommes offense look if they get injured mid game.

James is a great player, the team lives and dies by his impact on any given night.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Treble Clef
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 20 Nov 2012
Posts: 23742

PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:49 am    Post subject:

Lots of inexplicable game planning in this one.

Pick and roll sets were automatic points and they didn’t take advantage. When players were in motion, the Rockets couldn’t stop the Lakers bigs, but instead they spend a lot of time trying to force entry passes and while it worked whenever Davis got the ball, it also resulted in a bunch of unnecessary turnovers.

Way too much emphasis on not letting Harden beat them. Instead of letting him take contested 3’s into single coverage, they aggressively trapped and doubled him so someone like Gordon, Covington, Tucker, or House could have a wide open look instead. It was also weird to allow bigs to guard Westbrook on the perimeter. He was just having a field day with that.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
LakerSD
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 10 Nov 2016
Posts: 23731

PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:58 am    Post subject:

DrDent wrote:
LakerSD wrote:
Combination of factors:

1. The modern game of spacing
2. The Lakers bigs aren’t Shaq or Olajuwon in the post. They get bothered by small pesky defenders
3. The Lakers don’t shoot well enough. It was going to be a blowout if DG didn’t hit those big 3s before half.
4. Lakers defense was basically non-existent and had trouble sorting out full time small ball rockets.
5. The offense stagnated a lot and you can’t do that against a 3 point heavy team.

Remains to be seen if the rockets style will work over 7 games with scouting, film, etc. but imo the biggest concern from this game is undersized guys are able to neutralize the Lakers big lineups and that’s no bueno when you have AD and Lebron. It’s not only Harrell, but now it’s guys like Tucker, Sefolosha and even a skinny wing like Covington.


Not that I disagree with point 2 but im wondering if part of the issue is AD last night concerned a foul would be called. Remember his backdown on Tucker post move? He got an easy dunk, but Tucker flopped, and the entire Rocket team jumped up and screamed it was a foul (altho no foul was called). Considering its the Rockets who have a reputation of getting calls I wonder if that made AD more hesitant to do that again as I dont recall it happening after. It was one of those standard go to moves shaq did that we dont really see anymore in part cuz of the “modern nba”.


I think you just have to force the officials to call it and if they do it’s probably a back and forth on flopping and each team getting a call. I get what you are saying.

I’m more concerned with when he tried to impose his size and get to spots, he would get beat to the spot and kind of just give up and take a fadeaway. He made some shots because he is talented, but tbh he should be abusing these undersized players.

I guess what I’m trying to say is you don’t see the force that you see when Giannis has an undersized player on him and even someone like Kawhi when he has KCP on him.

Lebron and AD should be both able to keep punishing smaller defenders but they just fade away if the defender beats them to the initial spot. Lebron is better about counters but not nearly enough especially when he feels like he can’t get past the defender.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
MJST
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 06 Jul 2014
Posts: 26076

PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:01 am    Post subject:

They made no moves at the trade deadline, as if they thought that this roster as was had nothing that needed to be fixed.

That's the biggest problem.
_________________
How NBA 2K18 failed the All-Time Lakers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxMBYm3wwxk
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
kikanga
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 15 Sep 2012
Posts: 29150
Location: La La Land

PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:04 am    Post subject:

We're a transition and drive and kick team. Outside of giving up offensive boards, HOU had nothing to lose going small against us.
_________________
"Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better”
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Great One
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 24 Jun 2005
Posts: 3166
Location: Girl I'm Back in Spanish Town

PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:05 am    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
They made no moves at the trade deadline, as if they thought that this roster as was had nothing that needed to be fixed.

That's the biggest problem.

_________________
"Nobody hates the good ones. They hate the great ones." - KB
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
MJST
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 06 Jul 2014
Posts: 26076

PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:11 am    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
We're a transition and drive and kick team. Outside of giving up offensive boards, HOU had nothing to lose going small against us.


Because there's teams that are better than us at the gameplan we want to establish, as well as better equipped to accomplish it, and we're not exactly a team of spring chickens that can run teams out of the building for 4 quarters straight. We can't out Fred Astaire, Fred Astaire.
_________________
How NBA 2K18 failed the All-Time Lakers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxMBYm3wwxk
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
yinoma2001
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 119487

PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:13 am    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
They made no moves at the trade deadline, as if they thought that this roster as was had nothing that needed to be fixed.

That's the biggest problem.


Or we are asset poor and Kuz's low salary means we have to either send out Green or a poo poo platter of matching salaries that complicates trades.

We'll see if they don't pick up anyone from buyouts, then yes, I'll agree with you 100%.
_________________
From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
BandwagonLBJhopper
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 07 Feb 2020
Posts: 3562

PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:26 am    Post subject:

This was all Vogel

Been noted above all his mistakes down sizing, some of the puzzling rotations he puts out there at times.

But the biggest mistake is force feeding Rondo minutes, the guy comes in and we immediately collapse. You can tell within minutes whether it's a night Rondo has it or not, yet Vogel insists on playing him under this premise it helps Lebron manage the playmaking load when really Lebron just stands there when he doesn't have the ball, and when he does have it teams cheat off Rondo and Lebron has no room to drive.

The bigger concern is this issue has come up repeatedly in our losses, FO needs to eliminate Rondo from being a crutch for Vogel. It's risky because it might mess up chemistry and piss off AD, but long term we will lose if he still has the Rondo card he can force out there.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
PhiberOptik
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 4255
Location: San Francisco, CA

PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:27 am    Post subject:

Can anyone tell me what offense are we even running? The NBA offense has evolved now and it is predicated on having more possessions. I remember Danny Green saying a few months ago that they need to play faster but we rely so much on posting up and wasting time.

No wonder we struggle against playoff teams. They run and shoot the 3 against us and we have no answer every time.
_________________
Let's Go Lakers!!!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger Reply with quote
vanexelent
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 17 May 2005
Posts: 30081

PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:32 am    Post subject:

I don't think we really need to focus on the Rockets, tbh. I think we figure them out in a 7 game series.

They're going to give many teams fits with that offense. I think the Clippers, Bucks and 76'ers may be the best equipped to defend a team like that. Unfortunately they're equipped to defend us as well.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
>.<
Rookie
Rookie


Joined: 09 Jan 2020
Posts: 18

PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 10:19 am    Post subject:

in b4 merged/locked
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
deal
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 17 Aug 2008
Posts: 14900
Location: Earth

PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 10:34 am    Post subject:

If we run plays for our big men, which is not the same as just pounding the ball inside, it would not be long before Houston would be inbound foul trouble. That we'll give up some 3's? Maybe but we need to play to our strength, not the other teams strength. In the long run Houston would have to sit their perimeter shooters because of fouls.

For me it's a poor strategy to play small ball against a small ball team...just my O.
_________________
Lakers need to build a freaking team !
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
governator
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 24995

PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 11:16 am    Post subject:

P-A-N-I-C-M-O-D-E

Is Collison alone gonna solve this?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    LakersGround.net Forum Index -> LA Lakers Lounge All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2
Jump to:  

 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum






Graphics by uberzev
© 1995-2018 LakersGround.net. All Rights Reserved. Privacy Policy. Terms of Use.
LakersGround is an unofficial news source serving the fan community since 1995.
We are in no way associated with the Los Angeles Lakers or the National Basketball Association.


Powered by phpBB