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LakersNewEra Star Player
Joined: 16 Apr 2014 Posts: 1526 Location: Vancouver BC
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Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:00 am Post subject: This loss to Rockets deserves a separate thread....how??? |
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I know DB does great work and all but still this isn't just another game. There is something bigger at play here and I just feel basketball as a sport has left me behind. I need those that follow non stop and that understand x's and o's etc to tell me how does this happen and what does this tell us. How do we with all our size lose to a team that starts a 6'5" P.J Tucker and doesn't have a player taller bigger than him? Tell me how.
They have won last what like 10 games playing this way, they look much better without Capella and I just need an explanation. How the heck is that possible.
I know basketball has changed a lot. It's smaller, 3pt shot is everything, I get all that. I was talking to a friend about the Andre Drummond deal and I said look I just don't know what his value is now. 20 years ago he'd be the MVP with his style of play. A better Ben Wallace. But today? I just dunno.
So yeah those of you that have expert level knowledge, please, explain this stuff to me. Thanks. |
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Theseus Franchise Player
Joined: 15 Dec 2007 Posts: 13855
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Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:44 am Post subject: |
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We played to their strategy, and its not a style we play well at since we very rarely do it. Its one of those things that bites you in the butt on the course of a season, but for the playoffs its much easier with all the game-planning and practicing you do to combat an odd style.
Dwight Howard and McGee barely played. I think that was a bad decision. I know that their smalls are going to flop on any and all contact against our bigs and refs fall for that all the time, but we can't play down to their level.
All their flopping is tough to deal with too. You'll see Harden and Westbrook make strong moves with creating contact, but other times they will flop around when they get any contact. Its difficult to get a feel for when you see it sparingly, since basketball is a rhythm/feel game. |
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LakersRGolden Star Player
Joined: 13 Jan 2002 Posts: 7909 Location: Lake Forest
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Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:47 am Post subject: |
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The one 7 footer we played was floating outside the key. Size doesn't do much on the perimeter. |
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Nobody Star Player
Joined: 13 Sep 2008 Posts: 5699 Location: Ljubljana, Slovenia
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Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:59 am Post subject: |
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Teams also consistently zone us since we have nobody outside of KCP who can consistently hit the three. 50+ games in and it doesn't seem that our boys know how to combat a zone, which is inexcusable for a high level NBA team. |
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miggz23 Star Player
Joined: 29 Nov 2018 Posts: 6564
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Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:34 am Post subject: |
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Nobody wrote: | Teams also consistently zone us since we have nobody outside of KCP who can consistently hit the three. 50+ games in and it doesn't seem that our boys know how to combat a zone, which is inexcusable for a high level NBA team. |
Well if we continue to play Rondo/Caruso/Lebron line up... Expect to see a lot of teams zoning us up. It gives Lebron no driving lanes and prevents him from posting up also. We actually have a pretty decent PG who can shoot in Cook, but for some reason he is glued in the bench cause of Rondo? That's why I don't get, he was a very serviceable off the bench guy for a championship team before. It's not like the dude is some scrub. |
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venturalakersfan Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144432 Location: The Gold Coast
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Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 7:45 am Post subject: |
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I guess because the OP started this thread _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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LakerSD Franchise Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2016 Posts: 23731
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Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 7:53 am Post subject: |
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Combination of factors:
1. The modern game of spacing
2. The Lakers bigs aren’t Shaq or Olajuwon in the post. They get bothered by small pesky defenders
3. The Lakers don’t shoot well enough. It was going to be a blowout if DG didn’t hit those big 3s before half.
4. Lakers defense was basically non-existent and had trouble sorting out full time small ball rockets.
5. The offense stagnated a lot and you can’t do that against a 3 point heavy team.
Remains to be seen if the rockets style will work over 7 games with scouting, film, etc. but imo the biggest concern from this game is undersized guys are able to neutralize the Lakers big lineups and that’s no bueno when you have AD and Lebron. It’s not only Harrell, but now it’s guys like Tucker, Sefolosha and even a skinny wing like Covington. |
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cencio_999 Starting Rotation
Joined: 12 Nov 2019 Posts: 264
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Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:06 am Post subject: |
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The short x&o answer is: vogel's gameplan was awful.
The long answer is:
Deciding to double harden sistematically with HOU playing 5 out put even much pressure on our defensive rotations, exposing more our bigs on the perimeter, especially McGee.
So vogel gave up and followed MDA small ball instead of imposing our lenght.
There were other choiches from vogel that were unexplicable to me (e.g. Kuzma on westbrook, rondo 15 minutes), but what above was the main issue |
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scout0_0 Starting Rotation
Joined: 06 Jul 2019 Posts: 918
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Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:20 am Post subject: |
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cencio_999 wrote: | The short x&o answer is: vogel's gameplan was awful.
The long answer is:
Deciding to double harden sistematically with HOU playing 5 out put even much pressure on our defensive rotations, exposing more our bigs on the perimeter, especially McGee.
So vogel gave up and followed MDA small ball instead of imposing our lenght.
There were other choiches from vogel that were unexplicable to me (e.g. Kuzma on westbrook, rondo 15 minutes), but what above was the main issue |
Rondo -15
blame it on archaic ball |
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dont_be_a_wuss Franchise Player
Joined: 29 Mar 2012 Posts: 21415
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Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:29 am Post subject: |
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The team continues to look unrehearsed. When we threw double teams at the Rockets, trapped, pressed, they often made two quick passes leading to an open three, and they did it with such precision that it was almost like they had been practicing that sort of thing. I rarely get that feeling watching the Lakers offense. |
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DrDent Franchise Player
Joined: 30 Jun 2016 Posts: 12975
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Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:30 am Post subject: |
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LakerSD wrote: | Combination of factors:
1. The modern game of spacing
2. The Lakers bigs aren’t Shaq or Olajuwon in the post. They get bothered by small pesky defenders
3. The Lakers don’t shoot well enough. It was going to be a blowout if DG didn’t hit those big 3s before half.
4. Lakers defense was basically non-existent and had trouble sorting out full time small ball rockets.
5. The offense stagnated a lot and you can’t do that against a 3 point heavy team.
Remains to be seen if the rockets style will work over 7 games with scouting, film, etc. but imo the biggest concern from this game is undersized guys are able to neutralize the Lakers big lineups and that’s no bueno when you have AD and Lebron. It’s not only Harrell, but now it’s guys like Tucker, Sefolosha and even a skinny wing like Covington. |
Not that I disagree with point 2 but im wondering if part of the issue is AD last night concerned a foul would be called. Remember his backdown on Tucker post move? He got an easy dunk, but Tucker flopped, and the entire Rocket team jumped up and screamed it was a foul (altho no foul was called). Considering its the Rockets who have a reputation of getting calls I wonder if that made AD more hesitant to do that again as I dont recall it happening after. It was one of those standard go to moves shaq did that we dont really see anymore in part cuz of the “modern nba”. |
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Four Decade Bandwagon Star Player
Joined: 18 Jul 2014 Posts: 8127
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Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:40 am Post subject: |
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dont_be_a_wuss wrote: | The team continues to look unrehearsed. When we threw double teams at the Rockets, trapped, pressed, they often made two quick passes leading to an open three, and they did it with such precision that it was almost like they had been practicing that sort of thing. I rarely get that feeling watching the Lakers offense. |
Probably because the Lakers offense is one dimensional and easier to defend, most of the time.
What exactly is the offense? Rebound and pass to James. Take away the quick run out pass and the Lakers get mired into a half court James-centric dribble the ball outside the 3pt line offense. Waiting for him to make a drive or launch a long 3pt shot as the clock expires.
On a good night it works, they win, against focused and talented teams it turns into the TOs and bad contested 3pt shots.
Also why the team struggles so much with him on the bench. It is difficult to duplicate that greatness or to suddenly switch to an alternative offense. As an example, how smooth does a T. Brady or P. Mahommes offense look if they get injured mid game.
James is a great player, the team lives and dies by his impact on any given night. |
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Treble Clef Franchise Player
Joined: 20 Nov 2012 Posts: 23742
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Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:49 am Post subject: |
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Lots of inexplicable game planning in this one.
Pick and roll sets were automatic points and they didn’t take advantage. When players were in motion, the Rockets couldn’t stop the Lakers bigs, but instead they spend a lot of time trying to force entry passes and while it worked whenever Davis got the ball, it also resulted in a bunch of unnecessary turnovers.
Way too much emphasis on not letting Harden beat them. Instead of letting him take contested 3’s into single coverage, they aggressively trapped and doubled him so someone like Gordon, Covington, Tucker, or House could have a wide open look instead. It was also weird to allow bigs to guard Westbrook on the perimeter. He was just having a field day with that. |
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LakerSD Franchise Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2016 Posts: 23731
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Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:58 am Post subject: |
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DrDent wrote: | LakerSD wrote: | Combination of factors:
1. The modern game of spacing
2. The Lakers bigs aren’t Shaq or Olajuwon in the post. They get bothered by small pesky defenders
3. The Lakers don’t shoot well enough. It was going to be a blowout if DG didn’t hit those big 3s before half.
4. Lakers defense was basically non-existent and had trouble sorting out full time small ball rockets.
5. The offense stagnated a lot and you can’t do that against a 3 point heavy team.
Remains to be seen if the rockets style will work over 7 games with scouting, film, etc. but imo the biggest concern from this game is undersized guys are able to neutralize the Lakers big lineups and that’s no bueno when you have AD and Lebron. It’s not only Harrell, but now it’s guys like Tucker, Sefolosha and even a skinny wing like Covington. |
Not that I disagree with point 2 but im wondering if part of the issue is AD last night concerned a foul would be called. Remember his backdown on Tucker post move? He got an easy dunk, but Tucker flopped, and the entire Rocket team jumped up and screamed it was a foul (altho no foul was called). Considering its the Rockets who have a reputation of getting calls I wonder if that made AD more hesitant to do that again as I dont recall it happening after. It was one of those standard go to moves shaq did that we dont really see anymore in part cuz of the “modern nba”. |
I think you just have to force the officials to call it and if they do it’s probably a back and forth on flopping and each team getting a call. I get what you are saying.
I’m more concerned with when he tried to impose his size and get to spots, he would get beat to the spot and kind of just give up and take a fadeaway. He made some shots because he is talented, but tbh he should be abusing these undersized players.
I guess what I’m trying to say is you don’t see the force that you see when Giannis has an undersized player on him and even someone like Kawhi when he has KCP on him.
Lebron and AD should be both able to keep punishing smaller defenders but they just fade away if the defender beats them to the initial spot. Lebron is better about counters but not nearly enough especially when he feels like he can’t get past the defender. |
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MJST Retired Number
Joined: 06 Jul 2014 Posts: 26076
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Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:01 am Post subject: |
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They made no moves at the trade deadline, as if they thought that this roster as was had nothing that needed to be fixed.
That's the biggest problem. _________________ How NBA 2K18 failed the All-Time Lakers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxMBYm3wwxk |
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kikanga Retired Number
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29150 Location: La La Land
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Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:04 am Post subject: |
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We're a transition and drive and kick team. Outside of giving up offensive boards, HOU had nothing to lose going small against us. _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better” |
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Great One Star Player
Joined: 24 Jun 2005 Posts: 3166 Location: Girl I'm Back in Spanish Town
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Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:05 am Post subject: |
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MJST wrote: | They made no moves at the trade deadline, as if they thought that this roster as was had nothing that needed to be fixed.
That's the biggest problem. |
_________________ "Nobody hates the good ones. They hate the great ones." - KB |
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MJST Retired Number
Joined: 06 Jul 2014 Posts: 26076
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Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:11 am Post subject: |
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kikanga wrote: | We're a transition and drive and kick team. Outside of giving up offensive boards, HOU had nothing to lose going small against us. |
Because there's teams that are better than us at the gameplan we want to establish, as well as better equipped to accomplish it, and we're not exactly a team of spring chickens that can run teams out of the building for 4 quarters straight. We can't out Fred Astaire, Fred Astaire. _________________ How NBA 2K18 failed the All-Time Lakers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxMBYm3wwxk |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:13 am Post subject: |
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MJST wrote: | They made no moves at the trade deadline, as if they thought that this roster as was had nothing that needed to be fixed.
That's the biggest problem. |
Or we are asset poor and Kuz's low salary means we have to either send out Green or a poo poo platter of matching salaries that complicates trades.
We'll see if they don't pick up anyone from buyouts, then yes, I'll agree with you 100%. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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BandwagonLBJhopper Star Player
Joined: 07 Feb 2020 Posts: 3562
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Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:26 am Post subject: |
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This was all Vogel
Been noted above all his mistakes down sizing, some of the puzzling rotations he puts out there at times.
But the biggest mistake is force feeding Rondo minutes, the guy comes in and we immediately collapse. You can tell within minutes whether it's a night Rondo has it or not, yet Vogel insists on playing him under this premise it helps Lebron manage the playmaking load when really Lebron just stands there when he doesn't have the ball, and when he does have it teams cheat off Rondo and Lebron has no room to drive.
The bigger concern is this issue has come up repeatedly in our losses, FO needs to eliminate Rondo from being a crutch for Vogel. It's risky because it might mess up chemistry and piss off AD, but long term we will lose if he still has the Rondo card he can force out there. |
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PhiberOptik Star Player
Joined: 25 Aug 2003 Posts: 4255 Location: San Francisco, CA
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Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:27 am Post subject: |
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Can anyone tell me what offense are we even running? The NBA offense has evolved now and it is predicated on having more possessions. I remember Danny Green saying a few months ago that they need to play faster but we rely so much on posting up and wasting time.
No wonder we struggle against playoff teams. They run and shoot the 3 against us and we have no answer every time. _________________ Let's Go Lakers!!! |
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vanexelent Retired Number
Joined: 17 May 2005 Posts: 30081
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Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:32 am Post subject: |
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I don't think we really need to focus on the Rockets, tbh. I think we figure them out in a 7 game series.
They're going to give many teams fits with that offense. I think the Clippers, Bucks and 76'ers may be the best equipped to defend a team like that. Unfortunately they're equipped to defend us as well. |
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>.< Rookie
Joined: 09 Jan 2020 Posts: 18
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Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 10:19 am Post subject: |
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in b4 merged/locked |
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deal Franchise Player
Joined: 17 Aug 2008 Posts: 14900 Location: Earth
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Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 10:34 am Post subject: |
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If we run plays for our big men, which is not the same as just pounding the ball inside, it would not be long before Houston would be inbound foul trouble. That we'll give up some 3's? Maybe but we need to play to our strength, not the other teams strength. In the long run Houston would have to sit their perimeter shooters because of fouls.
For me it's a poor strategy to play small ball against a small ball team...just my O. _________________ Lakers need to build a freaking team ! |
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governator Franchise Player
Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 24995
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Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 11:16 am Post subject: |
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P-A-N-I-C-M-O-D-E
Is Collison alone gonna solve this? |
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