Lakers Front Office Made Critical Mistakes Over the Past Year (Long)
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venturalakersfan
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 7:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Lakers Front Office Made Critical Mistakes Over the Past Year (Long)

datniggbstyle wrote:


Roster Entering THIS season

Chris Mihm/Kwame Brown/Andrew Bynum
Lamar Odom/Brian Cook/Ronny Turiaf/Slava Medvedenko
Caron Butler/Devean George/Jumaine Jones
Kobe Bryant/Kareem Rush
Smush Parker/Sasha Vujacic



[/b]


Minus Smush, that is the roster that ended up in the lottery and got the team a 10th pick. The roster this season is better.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 7:24 pm    Post subject:

tgf5 wrote:
plunder456 wrote:
Telll me ANYONE. Why R we paying K Brown 8 mill per year? Could we get his PRODUCTION for 2 mill or LESS per year?


Funny we are paying Brown that much but couldn't pay Butler that much. Butler would have stayed for the same price.


Kwame does a much better job of guarding centers in the league than Butler would. But then again, Butler couldn't guard many SG/SFs, either. Sorry, I know defense hasn't entered into this discussion yet, but ignoring it is what cost the Lakers last year.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 7:25 pm    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
Phil wants his SF to be his main initiators.

Butler wasn't the type of SF that fit Phil's vision IMO. So Butler would be the 6th man.

Plus, they were desperate for some size at PF or C.

While I don't think the trade was a good - it was made out of desperation. Exactly why you don't make trades out of desperation. Always wait out. Even it means you have an unbalanced roster.


Phil wanted Lamar to be the initiatotor and play the 3. With DG and Luke behind him, and Caron being the most tradeable piece, he had to go. Plus to extend Caron, they would have lost the 2007 plan. As for Kwame, their aren't many players with Kwame's physical skills, and if anyone can reach him, it would be Phil. Kwame actually reminds me of Mihm last year...remeber the inconsistency, the bad hands and dropped passes under the hoop, the foul trouble, the bricks from 4 feet, the lack of a go-to move. Mihm's made progress since last year, maybe Kwame will too. Plus Kwame can play some D.
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dcarter4kobe
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 8:15 pm    Post subject:

I know its in the past but what would everyone had liked to get back in the Shaq trade??????????
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Lakers Front Office Made Critical Mistakes Over the Past Year (Long)

datniggbstyle wrote:


Mistake #2

Trading Kareem Rush and Jumaine Jones to the Bobcats for Draft Picks. In Particular, Holding on to Luke Walton.

Ok, so you say he knows the triangle and is a smart player. So does my daughter but she isnt playing for the Lakers. Luke Walton is a servicable player that should find himself in Miami soon enough. He has absolutely no value in a Laker uniform. His strengths are passing and court vision. He finds an open man they miss the shot. He finds an open shot he misses the shot. Get my drift. Get him a big man and he will be average to good. Kareem and Jumaine are guys that compliment Kobe perfectly. These two trades drastically lowered our talent level.

[/b]


I agree in part with this, esp. in trading Jumaine. It was quite obvious last season that he brings in defensive energy off the bench, sometimes not quantified by stats. We miss his blue-collar type of play right now.

I don't understand the FO's continued hard-on for Luke's play. He needs to nail his jump shots to be a good complement on this team. Anyone else have a different opinion, pls. enlighten me.

Not a big fan of Rush's game, SG with no handles and too streaky with his shot to begin with. Also plays soft on both ends, we have a lot of those already.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:21 pm    Post subject:

Arsenal wrote:
Lakers brass has made mistakes since the 2nd championship when they should have re-loaded with young talent.


I would say the 3rd championship. They won but just barely. They should have reloaded then.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 11:09 pm    Post subject:

Arsenal wrote:
Lakers brass has made mistakes since the 2nd championship when they should have re-loaded with young talent.


I agree. Simple and straight to the point.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 11:19 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
Problem is we Traded for Jones and Rush for NOBODY. 2nd Round Picks.


But that's the problem with your argument. Jones and Rush are nobodies. They aren't worth more than second round picks.

Quote:
They are guards, do you want them in the .500's it doesnt work like that.


Jones is a forward who shoots about .410. Rush shoots under .400. That's why they're only worth second round picks.

Quote:
Let it digest and then get back to me. dont skim through my posts. Who said anything about getting quality players for Walton or Medvedenko.


I read your post. You're the one who talked about trading Walton and Medvedenko.

Quote:
While the numbers make it look ugly, it's hard to forget that the Lakers finished last season like 1-39 or something while Kobe was healthy and Caron was putting up 20/6/2 every night, and Lamar was out.


Exactly. Butler's net +/- last season was an astounding -4.0. This year with the Wizards, he has improved to -3.7. The people around here who think he's anything better than average are just experiencing seller's remorse.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 11:53 pm    Post subject:

JerryMagicKobe wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
Phil wants his SF to be his main initiators.

Butler wasn't the type of SF that fit Phil's vision IMO. So Butler would be the 6th man.

Plus, they were desperate for some size at PF or C.

While I don't think the trade was a good - it was made out of desperation. Exactly why you don't make trades out of desperation. Always wait out. Even it means you have an unbalanced roster.


Phil wanted Lamar to be the initiatotor and play the 3. With DG and Luke behind him, and Caron being the most tradeable piece, he had to go. Plus to extend Caron, they would have lost the 2007 plan. As for Kwame, their aren't many players with Kwame's physical skills, and if anyone can reach him, it would be Phil. Kwame actually reminds me of Mihm last year...remeber the inconsistency, the bad hands and dropped passes under the hoop, the foul trouble, the bricks from 4 feet, the lack of a go-to move. Mihm's made progress since last year, maybe Kwame will too. Plus Kwame can play some D.


Really. Kwame isn't panning out the way most have expected BUT, I think most people disagree with the Butler/Kwame trade because it was uneven in terms of talent.

But.
1. It improved team balance.
2. It improved interior defense.
3. What was our record last year compared to this season? Big improvement compared to last season.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 12:20 am    Post subject:

1. Lakers should have traded Caron+Chucky for Magloire but we didn't have the nerve to wait until he hit the market, so we pulled the trigger on Kwame.

2. Lakers should have kept Jumaine on the bench, he was shooting 39% from 3pt range last year. Would have been good backup for when Odom or Smush we having an off night. He may not being doing well on the Bobcats but he did well playing with Kobe.

3. Lakers should have traded Vlade+Slava+George for Jalen Rose+a pick, but Buss didn't want to hold onto to Vlade's contract value. Jalen may only be slightly better than George but his expiring contract has a lot of value next year to the knicks (watch them try to package Jalen+Frye+picks for KG). Not my first choice, but why let the expiring contracts go for nothing when we won't have cap space until 2008.

4. Lakers should have used the MLE to sign Steve Blake(2.3m for 2 years) and/or Eddie Griffen(2m for 2 years)

5. Worst case - lakers should have kept Brian Grant's expiring contract for value next year, especially since the 2007 plan is dead. Even an injured Grant is more value than Devin Green and Von Wafer.

Potential roster:
PG: Blake / Smush / Sasha
SG: Kobe / Jalen
SF: Odom / Jumaine
PF: Magloire / Cook / Eddie Griffen
C: Mihm / Bynum / Grant

But in saving money the Lakers have lost a lot of trading chips. Even 2 out of Blake, Jalen, Griffen, or Jumaine would be nice boost with all our injuries.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 12:21 am    Post subject:

I agree with the original poster on Washington not matching a MLE offer. I said this immediately when we caught wind of this rumor. Why give up so much for a free agent. No way in hell does Washington match any offer. We sign Kwame for the MLE, probably for at least four years, and we keep Caron. Sucky could've just been released or traded for a future 3025 draft pick or whatever. But Caron would've been the second scorer we're now looking for. Plus we'd have better trade bait for a possible KG run. And Caron would've either been a restricted free agent this off season for a sign-n-trade or we could've signed him for about 7-8 million per season.

Oh, and guess who's averaging more rebounds per game this season? Kwame or Caron?
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 12:39 am    Post subject:

^It's as if the Lakers finally nailed talent evaluation in regards to the draft and SPL, but when it comes to trades and making the right ones, only few times we've stolen and other times, extended the amount of time to become championship level.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 12:44 am    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
tgf5 wrote:
plunder456 wrote:
Telll me ANYONE. Why R we paying K Brown 8 mill per year? Could we get his PRODUCTION for 2 mill or LESS per year?


Funny we are paying Brown that much but couldn't pay Butler that much. Butler would have stayed for the same price.


Kwame does a much better job of guarding centers in the league than Butler would. But then again, Butler couldn't guard many SG/SFs, either. Sorry, I know defense hasn't entered into this discussion yet, but ignoring it is what cost the Lakers last year.


Co-sign.

Kwame does not get alot of Blocks becuase he does not go for head fakes.

Kwame does not get alot of Steals becuase he does not gamble.

He makes you take tough shots over him.

Kwame bottled up Shaq pretty good. Yesterday,he had Brand contained until Phil sat him down and put Mihm on Brand. Once an all-star gets hot it is almost impossible to cool him down.Kwame did not do it but nor could anybody.

Caron is a 6-7" Chucky. He gets alot of points but gives up that many on defense.

Look at his plus minus in games.

Plus Caron cries like a little girl on Leno and Oprah.

Maybe Jordan did make Kwame cry but at least he did not do it on National TV.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 12:50 am    Post subject:

The Dagger wrote:
I agree with the original poster on Washington not matching a MLE offer. I said this immediately when we caught wind of this rumor. Why give up so much for a free agent. No way in hell does Washington match any offer. We sign Kwame for the MLE, probably for at least four years, and we keep Caron. Sucky could've just been released or traded for a future 3025 draft pick or whatever. But Caron would've been the second scorer we're now looking for. Plus we'd have better trade bait for a possible KG run. And Caron would've either been a restricted free agent this off season for a sign-n-trade or we could've signed him for about 7-8 million per season.

Oh, and guess who's averaging more rebounds per game this season? Kwame or Caron?


You are kidding yourself if you think a 23 year old 7' 270 lbs athletic freak is going to be had for the MLE.

Maybe not Washington. He was done there.But Memphis or Indiana would have given him a similar deal. Plenty of reports have come out that the Pacers would have given him a similar deal with a guaranteed third year.

Teams always gamble and give second and third chances on athletic bigs.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 8:16 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
JerryMagicKobe wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
Phil wants his SF to be his main initiators.

Butler wasn't the type of SF that fit Phil's vision IMO. So Butler would be the 6th man.

Plus, they were desperate for some size at PF or C.

While I don't think the trade was a good - it was made out of desperation. Exactly why you don't make trades out of desperation. Always wait out. Even it means you have an unbalanced roster.


Phil wanted Lamar to be the initiatotor and play the 3. With DG and Luke behind him, and Caron being the most tradeable piece, he had to go. Plus to extend Caron, they would have lost the 2007 plan. As for Kwame, their aren't many players with Kwame's physical skills, and if anyone can reach him, it would be Phil. Kwame actually reminds me of Mihm last year...remeber the inconsistency, the bad hands and dropped passes under the hoop, the foul trouble, the bricks from 4 feet, the lack of a go-to move. Mihm's made progress since last year, maybe Kwame will too. Plus Kwame can play some D.


Really. Kwame isn't panning out the way most have expected BUT, I think most people disagree with the Butler/Kwame trade because it was uneven in terms of talent.

But.
1. It improved team balance.
2. It improved interior defense.
3. What was our record last year compared to this season? Big improvement compared to last season.

I agree.

But the talent drop of was huge. That was my concern. Not the fact that we were getting a big or trading Caron - but how raw Kwame's game was and still is.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 8:30 am    Post subject:

Of course the biggest recent mistake is trading up to draft Rush when Tayshaun Prince was available. Detroit probably doesnt' even make it to the finals w/o prince and his D on Miller. Even if they do, nobody to D up on Kobe. And Lidnsey Hunter is still better than any other guard on the Lakers today bar one.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 8:52 am    Post subject:

No Caron was better than Kwane & Odom. Brown should get 3 mill for his contributions. I do NOT believe any team would have given him 8 mill per year. E Campbell, Parks and other bigs could have been had for much less than 8 mill per year. Hell, combine Parks & Campbell(4 mill) & we would have MORE points & MORE rebounds than we do now.
Face it. we OVERPAY for Brown & we OVERPAY for Odom's rebounding. At 12 mill per year, Odom SHOULD average 16-9 & 7 ASSISTS.
Lakers SHOULD have trdaded snaq in 2003---to clips for Brand, olowokandi(tradable piece) & fillers------after snaqomeal's irresponsibility had cost us the 4PEAT. I was flamed by snaqlovers when I first porposed this but a year later snaq DEMANDED a trade & screwed us.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 11:02 am    Post subject:

To me, the biggest thing that has hurt the Lakers is wasting the MLE two years in a row. That was a chance to get some players who could have added quality depth. Hindsight, maybe you don't trade for Kwame, but as has been noted above several times many teams were willing to take a shot at him. Potential is a magic word in sports. I didn't like trading Rush and Jones for second round picks then and still don't. Pargo is better off the bench too than many they have now. It's frustrating and if Mitch unloads Mihm and Cook and others for Boozer they may be heading down the same road next year.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 11:12 am    Post subject:

NestT wrote:
The Dagger wrote:
I agree with the original poster on Washington not matching a MLE offer. I said this immediately when we caught wind of this rumor. Why give up so much for a free agent. No way in hell does Washington match any offer. We sign Kwame for the MLE, probably for at least four years, and we keep Caron. Sucky could've just been released or traded for a future 3025 draft pick or whatever. But Caron would've been the second scorer we're now looking for. Plus we'd have better trade bait for a possible KG run. And Caron would've either been a restricted free agent this off season for a sign-n-trade or we could've signed him for about 7-8 million per season.

Oh, and guess who's averaging more rebounds per game this season? Kwame or Caron?


You are kidding yourself if you think a 23 year old 7' 270 lbs athletic freak is going to be had for the MLE.

Maybe not Washington. He was done there.But Memphis or Indiana would have given him a similar deal. Plenty of reports have come out that the Pacers would have given him a similar deal with a guaranteed third year.

Teams always gamble and give second and third chances on athletic bigs.


Well, if that's the case then good, let whatever team have him. He's not worth the 9 million per season we're paying him. The bottomline is we should've kept Butler for either A. trade bait for KG or others or B. Sign the damn fool and keep that talent on this team. Caron loved playing in LA and with Kobe and would have likely signed for cheaper than he did for Washington.

We could have conceivably signed Diop who's playing just as good as Kwame this year for about 8 million dollars less and kept Caron. Oh, well just another fub-up by Mitch.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 2:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Lakers Front Office Made Critical Mistakes Over the Past Year (Long)

datniggbstyle wrote:


Trading Caron Butler For Kwame Brown

Caron Butler was a player that showed an ability to play with Kobe and be succesful. He was aggressive with or without Kobe in the game. Paying him 8 to 9 million over the next 5 seasons was a small price to pay, when he showed a willingness to EQUAL or atleast ATTEMPT to EQUAL kobes brilliance, Not just take a backseat and take advantage of Kobes brilliance like Odom does.He had a passion for the game the lakers are now missing. More than anything he had a chemistry with our star player. A chemistry that is hard to find and has yet to be matched. MAJOR downgrade in talent[/b]


I still dont understand why Caron was never given a chance to show what he could do in the triangle, and why Odom was annointed when he was least qualified for the Job. In my eyes being Kobes Partner>>>>>>> An Initiator

We all know that Kobe could have been the initiator and still put up 30 a game. We have seen him do it before. Lamar should have been packaged for an Big Man (2 years or Less) and a starting caliber PG.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 2:40 pm    Post subject:

Actually Diop makes about 6 million less than Kwame. He would've made more sense financially and would not have cost Caron. To the poster who thinks Kwame looks like Mihm last year I totally disagree. Mihm has always had offensive skills going back to his days at Texas. Kwame only has the size and athleticism but no offensive skills to develop.

It seems crazy to pay a situational defensive player 8 mil per season. The Lakers (Kupchak, Buss, whoever) are out of their minds if they picked up that 3rd year option. Some other teams may have offered the MLE last summer but nobody else would've given up a talent like Butler or given him 8 million for this season.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 2:40 pm    Post subject:

Quote:

But the talent drop of was huge. That was my concern. Not the fact that we were getting a big or trading Caron - but how raw Kwame's game was and still is.


I didn't like the trade either. It wasn't balanced in terms of talent.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 6:52 pm    Post subject:

Mitch has made very few good trades and very few good choices with free agency.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:50 am    Post subject:

loseyourname wrote:


Hell, Diaw is alone has already turned into Lamar-lite, and makes so little that we easily could be major players in free agency in '07. Who doesn't think this would have been a good team two years from now:

Diaw/Parker
Bryant/Wafer
Smith or Childress/Walton
Bosh/Turiaf
Bynum/Mihm

The scary thing is that team in '07 would still be under the cap enough to sign another player for more than the MLE (perhaps a more traditional point guard to mix up the rotations a bit and allow more lineup flexibility).


I think that's a little unfair, because he was traded for Joe Johnson. I dont know if we could have gotten Diaw or wanted Diaw a year ago. No one expected Diaw to turn out the way he did. Also I dont think Diaw is a legit 1 (better than Smush maybe) but he has Steve Nash to set him up for assists and is surrounded by a much better squad. I think Lakers traded for Kwame based on potential and that's exactly what we're paying for. We needed size and I dont know if Washington wouldnt have matched, thats just out of speculation. I dont think you (as an organization) let your #1draft pick go for the MLE, regardless of how bad he is, ESPECIALLY when you can make a trade for him.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 9:20 am    Post subject:

Von Wafer over Ryan Gomes.
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