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lar9149
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 Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2020 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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| governator wrote: | Is the mRNA and the attenuated live vaccine generate two diff antibodies against Covid or too similar? (Not sure if both target same protein just diff way of introducing to our body) can Possibly need both type?
Also
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-03065-y |
It seems similar governator because the spike protein is the key component for antibody protection. If you get a live virus, your body could produce different antibodies but the ones it produces against the spike protein, would seem to be protective.
But they are different ways of introduction. Since mRNA is only exposing you too the spike protein, you will only get antibodies to that part of the virus.
If you inject a live attenuated virus, it is more like being exposed to actual Covid. And it could in theory prepare your immune system better because besides antibodies, your immune system like memory t helper cells and other factors could be activated by this type of vaccine. Hard to know if the same thing would happen with mRNA vaccine since its a new vaccine.
But because mRNA doesn’t inject a live att virus, you could inject a higher dosage which could result in more antibodies and that can counteract any possible drawbacks. Since the technology is new, the science is still being written.
As far as taking both, doesn’t seem to be the case because the mRNA vaccines have such high effectiveness according to clinical trials.
As we get more and more people vaccinated we will see how effective it is in the real world and that could help determine if both are needed. But so far doesn’t seem to be the case. |
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governator
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| Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2020 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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| lar9149 wrote: | | governator wrote: | Is the mRNA and the attenuated live vaccine generate two diff antibodies against Covid or too similar? (Not sure if both target same protein just diff way of introducing to our body) can Possibly need both type?
Also
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-03065-y |
It seems similar governator because the spike protein is the key component for antibody protection. If you get a live virus, your body could produce different antibodies but the ones it produces against the spike protein, would seem to be protective.
But they are different ways of introduction. Since mRNA is only exposing you too the spike protein, you will only get antibodies to that part of the virus.
If you inject a live attenuated virus, it is more like being exposed to actual Covid. And it could in theory prepare your immune system better because besides antibodies, your immune system like memory t helper cells and other factors could be activated by this type of vaccine. Hard to know if the same thing would happen with mRNA vaccine since its a new vaccine.
But because mRNA doesn’t inject a live att virus, you could inject a higher dosage which could result in more antibodies and that can counteract any possible drawbacks. Since the technology is new, the science is still being written.
As far as taking both, doesn’t seem to be the case because the mRNA vaccines have such high effectiveness according to clinical trials.
As we get more and more people vaccinated we will see how effective it is in the real world and that could help determine if both are needed. But so far doesn’t seem to be the case. |
I mean with this new strain that might ‘change’ that protein, would taking both covers more strain or redundant? Basically is the mRNA produced more effective but ‘narrow’ coverage of strains (only ones with that specific protein) vs live attenuated which is less effective but produces more antibody types against different parts of the virus? Or I’m all wrong in the way of looking at this. This UK news concerns me |
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cal1piggy
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| Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2020 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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| governator wrote: | Is the mRNA and the attenuated live vaccine generate two diff antibodies against Covid or too similar? (Not sure if both target same protein just diff way of introducing to our body) can Possibly need both type?
Also
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-03065-y |
i believe those vaccines cause multiple different types of antibodies to be generated.
the reason is these vaccines, whether mrna (pfizer, moderna), genetically engineered virus vector (oxford, j&j) or protein based (smithglaxokline, novavax) caused proteins or pieces of proteins inside the body. The antibodies are generated that bind to different parts of the proteins. Different parts of the proteins or pieces of proteins could cause different antibodies to be formed. Not sure which vaccine has the entire protein or parts of the protein.
thus theoretically, these 'polyclonal' antibodies should provide protection against mutations, but i believe nothing is perfect. here is where they need to do protein folding modeling (pretty good now) and try to figure out whether the antibodies will work. walter reed hospital said they would report on their modeling results in a few days. Of course, there is nothing like actual trials.
however given evolutionary forces, the virus will continue to mutate to adapt to the environment. if there is a mutation that will allow it to bind tightly to cell receptors (very contagious) and escape vaccine-generated proteins, you can bet that it will be happen because of evolutionary forces and the trillions of trillions of virus out there.
Last edited by cal1piggy on Mon Dec 21, 2020 3:30 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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governator
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| Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2020 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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| cal1piggy wrote: | | governator wrote: | Is the mRNA and the attenuated live vaccine generate two diff antibodies against Covid or too similar? (Not sure if both target same protein just diff way of introducing to our body) can Possibly need both type?
Also
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-03065-y |
i believe those vaccines cause multiple different types of antibodies to be generated.
the reason is these vaccines, whether mrna (pfizer, moderna), genetically engineered virus vector (oxford, j&j) or protein based (smithglaxokline, novavax) caused proteins or pieces of proteins inside the body. The antibodies are generated that bind to different parts of the proteins. Different parts of the proteins or pieces of proteins could cause different antibodies to be formed. Not sure which vaccine has the entire protein or parts of the protein.
thus theoretically, these 'polyclonal' antibodies should provide protection against mutations, but i believe nothing is perfect. here is where they need to do protein bending modeling (pretty good now) and try to figure out whether the antibodies will work. walter reed hospital said they would report on their modeling results in a few days. Of course, there is nothing like actual trials.
however given evolutionary forces, the virus will continue to mutate to adapt to the environment. if there is a mutation that will allow it to bind tightly to cell receptors (very contagious) and escape vaccine-generated proteins, you can bet that it will be happen because of evolutionary forces and the trillions of trillions of virus out there. |
Sounds like we’re looking at annual vaccine ala flu, sucks, was hoping decades of protection |
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cal1piggy
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| Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2020 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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| governator wrote: | | cal1piggy wrote: | | governator wrote: | Is the mRNA and the attenuated live vaccine generate two diff antibodies against Covid or too similar? (Not sure if both target same protein just diff way of introducing to our body) can Possibly need both type?
Also
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-03065-y |
i believe those vaccines cause multiple different types of antibodies to be generated.
the reason is these vaccines, whether mrna (pfizer, moderna), genetically engineered virus vector (oxford, j&j) or protein based (smithglaxokline, novavax) caused proteins or pieces of proteins inside the body. The antibodies are generated that bind to different parts of the proteins. Different parts of the proteins or pieces of proteins could cause different antibodies to be formed. Not sure which vaccine has the entire protein or parts of the protein.
thus theoretically, these 'polyclonal' antibodies should provide protection against mutations, but i believe nothing is perfect. here is where they need to do protein bending modeling (pretty good now) and try to figure out whether the antibodies will work. walter reed hospital said they would report on their modeling results in a few days. Of course, there is nothing like actual trials.
however given evolutionary forces, the virus will continue to mutate to adapt to the environment. if there is a mutation that will allow it to bind tightly to cell receptors (very contagious) and escape vaccine-generated proteins, you can bet that it will be happen because of evolutionary forces and the trillions of trillions of virus out there. |
Sounds like we’re looking at annual vaccine ala flu, sucks, was hoping decades of protection |
lets hope that is not the case. a friend and i had a discussion about flu vaccine yesterday due to this uk issue. we were guessing how in the world the flu vaccine manufacturers are able to produce a vaccine so quickly. given how long the covid protein based vaccines are taking to perfect and develop, we were wondering how could they change the flu vaccine every year. our guess is that they are merely combining antigens that they already have in house. they probably just to pick the few strains and mass manufacturing it.
however, if covid19 mutates that much, i am not sure even mrna can keep up with it.
imo, having enough immunity so that we dont die or end up in the icu is probably enough. |
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lar9149
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| Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2020 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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| cal1piggy wrote: | | governator wrote: | | cal1piggy wrote: | | governator wrote: | Is the mRNA and the attenuated live vaccine generate two diff antibodies against Covid or too similar? (Not sure if both target same protein just diff way of introducing to our body) can Possibly need both type?
Also
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-03065-y |
i believe those vaccines cause multiple different types of antibodies to be generated.
the reason is these vaccines, whether mrna (pfizer, moderna), genetically engineered virus vector (oxford, j&j) or protein based (smithglaxokline, novavax) caused proteins or pieces of proteins inside the body. The antibodies are generated that bind to different parts of the proteins. Different parts of the proteins or pieces of proteins could cause different antibodies to be formed. Not sure which vaccine has the entire protein or parts of the protein.
thus theoretically, these 'polyclonal' antibodies should provide protection against mutations, but i believe nothing is perfect. here is where they need to do protein bending modeling (pretty good now) and try to figure out whether the antibodies will work. walter reed hospital said they would report on their modeling results in a few days. Of course, there is nothing like actual trials.
however given evolutionary forces, the virus will continue to mutate to adapt to the environment. if there is a mutation that will allow it to bind tightly to cell receptors (very contagious) and escape vaccine-generated proteins, you can bet that it will be happen because of evolutionary forces and the trillions of trillions of virus out there. |
Sounds like we’re looking at annual vaccine ala flu, sucks, was hoping decades of protection |
lets hope that is not the case. a friend and i had a discussion about flu vaccine yesterday due to this uk issue. we were guessing how in the world the flu vaccine manufacturers are able to produce a vaccine so quickly. given how long the covid protein based vaccines are taking to perfect and develop, we were wondering how could they change the flu vaccine every year. our guess is that they are merely combining antigens that they already have in house. they probably just to pick the few strains and mass manufacturing it.
however, if covid19 mutates that much, i am not sure even mrna can keep up with it.
imo, having enough immunity so that we dont die or end up in the icu is probably enough. |
FYI. Cal1 yes you and your friend pretty much got the idea as far as flu vaccines. To add on since the flu virus mutates scientists try to predict which ones will be most prevalent and make vaccines based on that.
Mostly they get it right but every once in while they don’t predict the right strains and you get a flu outbreak.
But even when they get it right the effectiveness of flu vaccines isn’t that good because our bodies just don’t create good antibodies against the strains because the flu virus attaches to sialic acid a simple sugar found all over cell membranes. After attachment the cell simply engulfs the virus. The surface proteins on the virus can quickly mutate without compromising its ability to attach to these simple sugars.
Last edited by lar9149 on Mon Dec 21, 2020 6:50 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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cal1piggy
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| Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2020 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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| lar9149 wrote: | | cal1piggy wrote: | | governator wrote: | | cal1piggy wrote: | | governator wrote: | Is the mRNA and the attenuated live vaccine generate two diff antibodies against Covid or too similar? (Not sure if both target same protein just diff way of introducing to our body) can Possibly need both type?
Also
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-03065-y |
i believe those vaccines cause multiple different types of antibodies to be generated.
the reason is these vaccines, whether mrna (pfizer, moderna), genetically engineered virus vector (oxford, j&j) or protein based (smithglaxokline, novavax) caused proteins or pieces of proteins inside the body. The antibodies are generated that bind to different parts of the proteins. Different parts of the proteins or pieces of proteins could cause different antibodies to be formed. Not sure which vaccine has the entire protein or parts of the protein.
thus theoretically, these 'polyclonal' antibodies should provide protection against mutations, but i believe nothing is perfect. here is where they need to do protein bending modeling (pretty good now) and try to figure out whether the antibodies will work. walter reed hospital said they would report on their modeling results in a few days. Of course, there is nothing like actual trials.
however given evolutionary forces, the virus will continue to mutate to adapt to the environment. if there is a mutation that will allow it to bind tightly to cell receptors (very contagious) and escape vaccine-generated proteins, you can bet that it will be happen because of evolutionary forces and the trillions of trillions of virus out there. |
Sounds like we’re looking at annual vaccine ala flu, sucks, was hoping decades of protection |
lets hope that is not the case. a friend and i had a discussion about flu vaccine yesterday due to this uk issue. we were guessing how in the world the flu vaccine manufacturers are able to produce a vaccine so quickly. given how long the covid protein based vaccines are taking to perfect and develop, we were wondering how could they change the flu vaccine every year. our guess is that they are merely combining antigens that they already have in house. they probably just to pick the few strains and mass manufacturing it.
however, if covid19 mutates that much, i am not sure even mrna can keep up with it.
imo, having enough immunity so that we dont die or end up in the icu is probably enough. |
FYI. Cal1 yes you and your friend pretty much got the idea as far as flu vaccines. To add on since the flu virus mutates scientists try to predict which ones will be most prevalent and make vaccines based on that.
Mostly they get it right but every once in while they don’t predict the right strains and you get a flu outbreak. |
thanks lar
however, it takes a long time to make that much antigen.
i presume they guess which protein they need out of the protein antigens they have in stock, and then make more of those for the year's vaccine? |
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lar9149
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| Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2020 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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| cal1piggy wrote: | | lar9149 wrote: | | cal1piggy wrote: | | governator wrote: | | cal1piggy wrote: | | governator wrote: | Is the mRNA and the attenuated live vaccine generate two diff antibodies against Covid or too similar? (Not sure if both target same protein just diff way of introducing to our body) can Possibly need both type?
Also
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-03065-y |
i believe those vaccines cause multiple different types of antibodies to be generated.
the reason is these vaccines, whether mrna (pfizer, moderna), genetically engineered virus vector (oxford, j&j) or protein based (smithglaxokline, novavax) caused proteins or pieces of proteins inside the body. The antibodies are generated that bind to different parts of the proteins. Different parts of the proteins or pieces of proteins could cause different antibodies to be formed. Not sure which vaccine has the entire protein or parts of the protein.
thus theoretically, these 'polyclonal' antibodies should provide protection against mutations, but i believe nothing is perfect. here is where they need to do protein bending modeling (pretty good now) and try to figure out whether the antibodies will work. walter reed hospital said they would report on their modeling results in a few days. Of course, there is nothing like actual trials.
however given evolutionary forces, the virus will continue to mutate to adapt to the environment. if there is a mutation that will allow it to bind tightly to cell receptors (very contagious) and escape vaccine-generated proteins, you can bet that it will be happen because of evolutionary forces and the trillions of trillions of virus out there. |
Sounds like we’re looking at annual vaccine ala flu, sucks, was hoping decades of protection |
lets hope that is not the case. a friend and i had a discussion about flu vaccine yesterday due to this uk issue. we were guessing how in the world the flu vaccine manufacturers are able to produce a vaccine so quickly. given how long the covid protein based vaccines are taking to perfect and develop, we were wondering how could they change the flu vaccine every year. our guess is that they are merely combining antigens that they already have in house. they probably just to pick the few strains and mass manufacturing it.
however, if covid19 mutates that much, i am not sure even mrna can keep up with it.
imo, having enough immunity so that we dont die or end up in the icu is probably enough. |
FYI. Cal1 yes you and your friend pretty much got the idea as far as flu vaccines. To add on since the flu virus mutates scientists try to predict which ones will be most prevalent and make vaccines based on that.
Mostly they get it right but every once in while they don’t predict the right strains and you get a flu outbreak. |
thanks lar
however, it takes a long time to make that much antigen.
i presume they guess which protein they need out of the protein antigens they have in stock, and then make more of those for the year's vaccine? |
That is correct. Most of the flu virus strains have the same structure except for the mutations in the surface protein. So they can take protein antigens from previous years, make adjustments on the surface protein to match what they think will be the dominant strains. |
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cal1piggy
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Joined: 19 Jul 2017
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| Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2020 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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| lar9149 wrote: | | cal1piggy wrote: | | lar9149 wrote: | | cal1piggy wrote: | | governator wrote: | | cal1piggy wrote: | | governator wrote: | Is the mRNA and the attenuated live vaccine generate two diff antibodies against Covid or too similar? (Not sure if both target same protein just diff way of introducing to our body) can Possibly need both type?
Also
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-03065-y |
i believe those vaccines cause multiple different types of antibodies to be generated.
the reason is these vaccines, whether mrna (pfizer, moderna), genetically engineered virus vector (oxford, j&j) or protein based (smithglaxokline, novavax) caused proteins or pieces of proteins inside the body. The antibodies are generated that bind to different parts of the proteins. Different parts of the proteins or pieces of proteins could cause different antibodies to be formed. Not sure which vaccine has the entire protein or parts of the protein.
thus theoretically, these 'polyclonal' antibodies should provide protection against mutations, but i believe nothing is perfect. here is where they need to do protein bending modeling (pretty good now) and try to figure out whether the antibodies will work. walter reed hospital said they would report on their modeling results in a few days. Of course, there is nothing like actual trials.
however given evolutionary forces, the virus will continue to mutate to adapt to the environment. if there is a mutation that will allow it to bind tightly to cell receptors (very contagious) and escape vaccine-generated proteins, you can bet that it will be happen because of evolutionary forces and the trillions of trillions of virus out there. |
Sounds like we’re looking at annual vaccine ala flu, sucks, was hoping decades of protection |
lets hope that is not the case. a friend and i had a discussion about flu vaccine yesterday due to this uk issue. we were guessing how in the world the flu vaccine manufacturers are able to produce a vaccine so quickly. given how long the covid protein based vaccines are taking to perfect and develop, we were wondering how could they change the flu vaccine every year. our guess is that they are merely combining antigens that they already have in house. they probably just to pick the few strains and mass manufacturing it.
however, if covid19 mutates that much, i am not sure even mrna can keep up with it.
imo, having enough immunity so that we dont die or end up in the icu is probably enough. |
FYI. Cal1 yes you and your friend pretty much got the idea as far as flu vaccines. To add on since the flu virus mutates scientists try to predict which ones will be most prevalent and make vaccines based on that.
Mostly they get it right but every once in while they don’t predict the right strains and you get a flu outbreak. |
thanks lar
however, it takes a long time to make that much antigen.
i presume they guess which protein they need out of the protein antigens they have in stock, and then make more of those for the year's vaccine? |
That is correct. Most of the flu virus strains have the same structure except for the mutations in the surface protein. So they can take protein antigens from previous years, make adjustments on the surface protein to match what they think will be the dominant strains. |
regarding your comment about flu vaccine not being that effective, i think there is getting sick vs. going in the icu vs. dying.
if i remember right, there was a big h1n1 concern 10 years ago. was that because they did not have the antigen in stock because it is a relatively new strain? so it would take a long time before having it - kind of like covid19? |
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lar9149
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| Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2020 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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| That is actually one I don’t know the answer too cal1. Not sure if they did t have the antigen strain in stock or something of that nature. |
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cal1piggy
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| Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 5:33 am Post subject: |
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| lar9149 wrote: | | That is actually one I don’t know the answer too cal1. Not sure if they did t have the antigen strain in stock or something of that nature. |
from what i remember, the 2009 h1n1 virus had genetic materials from several strains. though they should be able to respond if the coating protein antigen was in available already. |
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governator
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| Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 5:40 am Post subject: |
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| there sure is a lot of smoke with this new UK strains, I mean neighboring west european countries are already banning flights from UK. I'm hoping it's not another political decision not to hold flight from UK to US which we should but so far only state of NY (on its own), at least until it's clear that mortality rate/vaccine effectiveness aren't compromised with this strain |
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cal1piggy
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| Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 6:05 am Post subject: |
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| governator wrote: | | there sure is a lot of smoke with this new UK strains, I mean neighboring west european countries are already banning flights from UK. I'm hoping it's not another political decision not to hold flight from UK to US which we should but so far only state of NY (on its own), at least until it's clear that mortality rate/vaccine effectiveness aren't compromised with this strain |
sorry, i would have to agree with taking action preemptively first. if it is that bad, getting more of it here could be 'irreversible'. xmas is upon us and it would sad for those doing holiday travel, but the consequence for inaction increase the numbers with this mutation here.
there is a reason why countries like taiwan and china now has minimal cases now. beyond very aggressive procedures to stop the virus with their citizens a few months ago, they also stop visitors to reinfect them. |
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governator
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| Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 6:20 am Post subject: |
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| cal1piggy wrote: | | governator wrote: | | there sure is a lot of smoke with this new UK strains, I mean neighboring west european countries are already banning flights from UK. I'm hoping it's not another political decision not to hold flight from UK to US which we should but so far only state of NY (on its own), at least until it's clear that mortality rate/vaccine effectiveness aren't compromised with this strain |
sorry, i would have to agree with taking action preemptively first. if it is that bad, getting more of it here could be 'irreversible'. xmas is upon us and it would sad for those doing holiday travel, but the consequence for inaction increase the numbers with this mutation here.
there is a reason why countries like taiwan and china now has minimal cases now. beyond very aggressive procedures to stop the virus with their citizens a few months ago, they also stop visitors to reinfect them. |
I think we're in agreement here. I'm just worry (and my apology for bringing politics) that POTUS might want to burn the house down on his way out and continue incoming flight from UK (btw, the state of NY hasn't ban the UK flights, only requiring COVID testing passenger preflight).
Anyway let's focus on the good news:
-home rapid self administer test kit coming out (hope next month) although at $30 each, this is only for the ones that can afford
-monoclonal antibody treatment IS available in limited basis for outpatient treatment (including pediatric) in the tri-state area (greater NY)... this is huge
-Remdesevir unfortunately is still severely limited and only for inpatient severe cases
- whoever bringing up Hydroxychloroquine, trial done in NYC greater area over summer, trial stopped, no recommendation to continue (as far as I understands)... so no good
Vaccine is next, mask up and social distance everybody! |
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lar9149
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| Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 6:58 am Post subject: |
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| cal1piggy wrote: | | lar9149 wrote: | | That is actually one I don’t know the answer too cal1. Not sure if they did t have the antigen strain in stock or something of that nature. |
from what i remember, the 2009 h1n1 virus had genetic materials from several strains. though they should be able to respond if the coating protein antigen was in available already. |
This is my guess Cal1..flu season begins early fall and places like my health center we tend to give the flu vaccine around that time through the winter.
By the time scientists knew about the H1N1 virus it may have already been into the flu season and there just wasn't enough time to amend the situation. Plus, a significant portion of people may already have received the flu vaccine. |
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cal1piggy
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| Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:12 am Post subject: |
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| governator wrote: | | cal1piggy wrote: | | governator wrote: | | there sure is a lot of smoke with this new UK strains, I mean neighboring west european countries are already banning flights from UK. I'm hoping it's not another political decision not to hold flight from UK to US which we should but so far only state of NY (on its own), at least until it's clear that mortality rate/vaccine effectiveness aren't compromised with this strain |
sorry, i would have to agree with taking action preemptively first. if it is that bad, getting more of it here could be 'irreversible'. xmas is upon us and it would sad for those doing holiday travel, but the consequence for inaction increase the numbers with this mutation here.
there is a reason why countries like taiwan and china now has minimal cases now. beyond very aggressive procedures to stop the virus with their citizens a few months ago, they also stop visitors to reinfect them. |
I think we're in agreement here. I'm just worry (and my apology for bringing politics) that POTUS might want to burn the house down on his way out and continue incoming flight from UK (btw, the state of NY hasn't ban the UK flights, only requiring COVID testing passenger preflight).
Anyway let's focus on the good news:
-home rapid self administer test kit coming out (hope next month) although at $30 each, this is only for the ones that can afford
-monoclonal antibody treatment IS available in limited basis for outpatient treatment (including pediatric) in the tri-state area (greater NY)... this is huge
-Remdesevir unfortunately is still severely limited and only for inpatient severe cases
- whoever bringing up Hydroxychloroquine, trial done in NYC greater area over summer, trial stopped, no recommendation to continue (as far as I understands)... so no good
Vaccine is next, mask up and social distance everybody! |
i think your politics and mine are similar here.
especially the stuff about marshall law - good grief
how expensive is the monoclonal antibody? |
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cal1piggy
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| Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:13 am Post subject: |
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| lar9149 wrote: | | cal1piggy wrote: | | lar9149 wrote: | | That is actually one I don’t know the answer too cal1. Not sure if they did t have the antigen strain in stock or something of that nature. |
from what i remember, the 2009 h1n1 virus had genetic materials from several strains. though they should be able to respond if the coating protein antigen was in available already. |
This is my guess Cal1..flu season begins early fall and places like my health center we tend to give the flu vaccine around that time through the winter.
By the time scientists knew about the H1N1 virus it may have already been into the flu season and there just wasn't enough time to amend the situation. Plus, a significant portion of people may already have received the flu vaccine. |
i wonder how long it actually takes to produce the antigen
perhaps this pandemic will force the country to maintain faster turnaround capability for antigen production, if possible |
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governator
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| Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:20 am Post subject: |
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| cal1piggy wrote: | | governator wrote: | | cal1piggy wrote: | | governator wrote: | | there sure is a lot of smoke with this new UK strains, I mean neighboring west european countries are already banning flights from UK. I'm hoping it's not another political decision not to hold flight from UK to US which we should but so far only state of NY (on its own), at least until it's clear that mortality rate/vaccine effectiveness aren't compromised with this strain |
sorry, i would have to agree with taking action preemptively first. if it is that bad, getting more of it here could be 'irreversible'. xmas is upon us and it would sad for those doing holiday travel, but the consequence for inaction increase the numbers with this mutation here.
there is a reason why countries like taiwan and china now has minimal cases now. beyond very aggressive procedures to stop the virus with their citizens a few months ago, they also stop visitors to reinfect them. |
I think we're in agreement here. I'm just worry (and my apology for bringing politics) that POTUS might want to burn the house down on his way out and continue incoming flight from UK (btw, the state of NY hasn't ban the UK flights, only requiring COVID testing passenger preflight).
Anyway let's focus on the good news:
-home rapid self administer test kit coming out (hope next month) although at $30 each, this is only for the ones that can afford
-monoclonal antibody treatment IS available in limited basis for outpatient treatment (including pediatric) in the tri-state area (greater NY)... this is huge
-Remdesevir unfortunately is still severely limited and only for inpatient severe cases
- whoever bringing up Hydroxychloroquine, trial done in NYC greater area over summer, trial stopped, no recommendation to continue (as far as I understands)... so no good
Vaccine is next, mask up and social distance everybody! |
i think your politics and mine are similar here.
especially the stuff about marshall law - good grief
how expensive is the monoclonal antibody? |
not sure about price, it's still only administered in hospitals but outpatient docs can call and refer their covid positive patients if meet criteria |
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cal1piggy
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Joined: 19 Jul 2017
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| Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 8:47 am Post subject: |
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| governator wrote: | | cal1piggy wrote: | | governator wrote: | | cal1piggy wrote: | | governator wrote: | | there sure is a lot of smoke with this new UK strains, I mean neighboring west european countries are already banning flights from UK. I'm hoping it's not another political decision not to hold flight from UK to US which we should but so far only state of NY (on its own), at least until it's clear that mortality rate/vaccine effectiveness aren't compromised with this strain |
sorry, i would have to agree with taking action preemptively first. if it is that bad, getting more of it here could be 'irreversible'. xmas is upon us and it would sad for those doing holiday travel, but the consequence for inaction increase the numbers with this mutation here.
there is a reason why countries like taiwan and china now has minimal cases now. beyond very aggressive procedures to stop the virus with their citizens a few months ago, they also stop visitors to reinfect them. |
I think we're in agreement here. I'm just worry (and my apology for bringing politics) that POTUS might want to burn the house down on his way out and continue incoming flight from UK (btw, the state of NY hasn't ban the UK flights, only requiring COVID testing passenger preflight).
Anyway let's focus on the good news:
-home rapid self administer test kit coming out (hope next month) although at $30 each, this is only for the ones that can afford
-monoclonal antibody treatment IS available in limited basis for outpatient treatment (including pediatric) in the tri-state area (greater NY)... this is huge
-Remdesevir unfortunately is still severely limited and only for inpatient severe cases
- whoever bringing up Hydroxychloroquine, trial done in NYC greater area over summer, trial stopped, no recommendation to continue (as far as I understands)... so no good
Vaccine is next, mask up and social distance everybody! |
i think your politics and mine are similar here.
especially the stuff about marshall law - good grief
how expensive is the monoclonal antibody? |
not sure about price, it's still only administered in hospitals but outpatient docs can call and refer their covid positive patients if meet criteria |
someone mentioned it is expensive so i was just curious |
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cal1piggy
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Joined: 19 Jul 2017
Posts: 2584
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| Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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more mutations
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/12/mutant-coronavirus-united-kingdom-sets-alarms-its-importance-remains-unclear
One reason to be concerned, Rambaut says, is that among the 17 mutations are eight in the gene that encodes the spike protein on the viral surface, two of which are particularly worrisome. One, called N501Y, has previously been shown to increase how tightly the protein binds to the angiotensin-converting enzyme 2 receptor, its entry point into human cells. The other, named 69-70del, leads to the loss of two amino acids in the spike protein and has been found in viruses that eluded the immune response in some immunocompromised patients.
But further reason for concern comes from South Africa, where scientists have sequenced genomes in three provinces where cases are soaring: Eastern Cape, Western Cape, and KwaZulu Natal. They identified a lineage separate from the U.K. variant that also has a N501Y mutation in the spike gene. “We found that this lineage seems to be spreading much faster,” says Tulio de Oliveira, a virologist at the University of KwaZulu-Natal whose work first alerted U.K. scientists to the importance of N501Y. (A preprint of their results on the strain, which they are calling 501Y.V2, will be released on Monday, de Oliveira says.)
Another worry is B.1.1.7 could cause more severe disease. There is anecdotal evidence that the South African variant may be doing that in young people and those who are otherwise healthy, says John Nkengasong, director of the Africa Centres for Disease Control and Prevention. “It’s concerning, but we really need more data to be sure.” The African Task Force for Coronavirus will convene an emergency meeting to discuss the issue on Monday, Nkengasong says.
Still, B.1.177, the strain from Spain, offers a cautionary lesson, says virologist Emma Hodcroft of the University of Basel. U.K. scientists initially thought it had a 50% higher mortality rate, but that turned out to be “purely messy, biased data in the early days,” she says. “I think that is a very strong reminder that we always have to be really careful with early data.” In the case of N501Y, more young people may be getting sick because many more are getting infected; Oliveira says some recent postexam celebrations in South Africa have turned into superspreading events. Studies in cell culture and animal experiments will have to show how a virus with several or all of the mutations carried by the new variant compares with previous variants, Drosten says.
Getting definitive answers could take months. But Ravindra Gupta, a virologist at the University of Cambridge, has made a start. The 69-70del mutation appeared together with another mutation named D796H in the virus of a patient who was infected for several months and was given convalescent plasma to treat the disease. (The patient eventually died.) In the lab, Gupta’s group found that virus carrying the two mutations was less susceptible to convalescent plasma from several donors than the wild-type virus. That suggests it can evade antibodies targeting the wild-type virus, Gupta wrote in a preprint published this month. He also engineered a lentivirus to express mutated versions of the spike protein and found that the deletion alone made that virus twice as infectious. He is now conducting similar experiments with viruses that carry both the deletion and the N501Y mutation. The first results should appear just after Christmas, Gupta says.
Last edited by cal1piggy on Tue Dec 22, 2020 3:42 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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epic_
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Joined: 23 Jan 2020
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| Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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Anyone have numbers on asymptomatic transfers?
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lar9149
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| Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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Epic, its half of transmission I found this at the cdc website
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6949e2.htm
With colder weather, more time spent indoors, the ongoing U.S. holiday season, and silent spread of disease, with approximately 50% of transmission from asymptomatic persons (2), the United States has entered a phase of high-level transmission
Cal1..yes against this mutations worry me although I am cautiously optimsitic like yourself. Like the mutation in Africa, it may not be dominant right now..but again, if we start reaching herd immunity through vaccines, we may start seeing more of these mutated strains (under the assumption they can evade vaccines).
But as the article you mentioned, early data is messy. Fauci even mentioned that he taught there was a more spreadable strain the USA back in July.
I think Lab evidence didn't support that so the issue was dropped. Hopefully same is found with UK strain.
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/02/the-coronavirus-may-have-mutated-to-become-more-infectious-dr-anthony-fauci-says.html |
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cal1piggy
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Joined: 19 Jul 2017
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| Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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vaccine allergy incidents are extremely low, even if more than expected
"The frequency of allergic reactions to Pfizer’s Covid-19 vaccine is greater than what would be expected for other vaccines, Dr. Moncef Slaoui, chief scientific adviser for Operation Warp Speed said Wednesday.
Slaoui said the last time he was updated on allergic reactions was Tuesday, when there were six cases."
UK announces travel ban on South Africa due to "increased risk" from new coronavirus strain
The UK has announced a travel ban on anyone who has been in or transited through South Africa in the past 10 days due to an “increased risk from a new strain of coronavirus,” the country's Department for Transport said in a statement.
https://www.cnn.com/world/live-news/coronavirus-pandemic-vaccine-updates-12-24-20/index.html |
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cal1piggy
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AFireInside619
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| Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2020 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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Got it from work. My place didn’t shut down so we are packed with people from all over SoCal. Day 6. Last night was the most brutal yet. Hoping the worst is behind me.
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