MDE: Wilt or Shaq?
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Who was more dominant? Wilt or Shaq?
Wilt
41%
 41%  [ 19 ]
Shaq
58%
 58%  [ 27 ]
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BadGuy
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 4:12 pm    Post subject: MDE: Wilt or Shaq?

Who does LG think was more dominant (by whatever criteria you choose)? Wilt or Shaq?
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 4:24 pm    Post subject:

Shaq. He didn't finesse shots if he didn't have to.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 4:40 pm    Post subject:

Shaq - most physically dominating force of all time. Full grown men getting tossed around as he backed them down. Some of the most vicious dunks ever.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 5:08 pm    Post subject:

Kareem .
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 6:20 pm    Post subject:

Bill Russell. Winner. 11 titles in 13 seasons. No one else in the history of the NBA can or ever will touch that.

I rate Kareem second. Did it better for longer than anybody, excelled in all areas of the game, 6 NBA championship rings, and 31 years after his final game, he is STILL the NBA all-time leading scorer. Now THAT is what you call a record.

I’ll rank Wilt third. There’s no doubting his greatness and he is certainly one of the foremost players that helped stamp the pro game onto the public’s consciousness. If Russell hadn’t been there, Wilt would have won many of those years.

Shaq is fourth and he was as dominant an offensive player as the sport has ever known. Who know what might have happened had he taken his conditioning more seriously (like Russell, Wilt and Kareem did).
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:11 pm    Post subject:

To me Wilt is the most dominant ever and it’s not even close. He was strong enough to handle Shaq and had the speed to run circles around him. Wilt was a better rebounder, scorer, passer, defender, and shot blocker (i know there’s no stats on that, but I was at a a lot of his games - had season tickets the whole time he was a Laker). Wilt also had the stamina to play full games every night. Shaq a force for sure, but he was no Wilt IMO.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:31 pm    Post subject:

...

Last edited by kwase on Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:32 pm    Post subject:

I'd pick Kareem over both of them. Kareem had the ultimate weapon...the sky hook, and he made his free throws. But if I had to pick Shaq or Wilt I'd go with Wilt simply because he took much better care of his body. Let's not forget Wilt led the league in assists one year. I'd like to see another center do that.
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deal
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:33 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Shaq. He didn't finesse shots if he didn't have to.



Yeah, I'd take Shaq.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2020 12:43 am    Post subject:

Shaq is the most dominant player I've ever seen. I've never seen anyone effortless wear grown men like backpacks.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2020 7:51 am    Post subject:

I'm old and even so, I am still too young to have seen Wilt play, but by looking at his career numbers they are nothing short of remarkable:

1. Had a 100 point game!
2. Averaged 40 points per game over his first SIX Seasons!
3. Averaged 24.9 rebounds per game over his first SIX Seasons!
4. Career scoring average of 30ppg!
5. Career rebound average of 22.9rpg!
6. Averaged 50 points per game over 80 games in 1960/61!
7. Averaged 2 personal fouls per game over his career, so he dominated without hitting the other guy and NEVER fouled out of a game!

Also, if you scroll way down, you will see some advanced analytics that tabulate Win Shares of NBA Centers and in both tables, Wilt is number one all-time and Shaq is number 6!

LINK: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/chambwi01.html

So factually speaking, Wilt is better by a mile, but since most everyone here has only seen Shaq play, I expect him to win this STRAW POLL...!
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2020 8:05 am    Post subject:

unleasHell wrote:
I'm old and even so, I am still too young to have seen Wilt play, but by looking at his career numbers they are nothing short of remarkable:

1. Had a 100 point game!
2. Averaged 40 points per game over his first SIX Seasons!
3. Averaged 24.9 rebounds per game over his first SIX Seasons!
4. Career scoring average of 30ppg!
5. Career rebound average of 22.9rpg!
6. Averaged 50 points per game over 80 games in 1960/61!
7. Averaged 2 personal fouls per game over his career, so he dominated without hitting the other guy and NEVER fouled out of a game!

Also, if you scroll way down, you will see some advanced analytics that tabulate Win Shares of NBA Centers and in both tables, Wilt is number one all-time and Shaq is number 6!

LINK: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/chambwi01.html

So factually speaking, Wilt is better by a mile, but since most everyone here has only seen Shaq play, I expect him to win this STRAW POLL...!


Wilt was great, but you have to take some of his statistical accomplishments with a grain of salt. They reflect his ability but also reflect the era he played in.

When Wilt was averaging 26 rrp in 1962, Russell was averaging 24 rrp, Bellamy 19 rrp., and Pettit 19 rpg. So his rebounding average was a function of his ability, but also a reflection of teams taking a lot of shots and shooting at a low percentage (creating many rebound opportunities) and the wide variations in talent that are common in the early days of a sports league.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2020 3:43 pm    Post subject:

Arguably the two most physically dominant centers of all time. I voted for Wilt.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2020 6:16 pm    Post subject:

I’d say Shaq would’ve been more dominant in Wilts era than Wilt. But I never saw Wilt play. Shaq was a marvel to me. He could’ve been even better had he had a Kobe like work ethic, yet at the same time at his size it’s amazing he played like 18 years and was a force for most of them. Yao didn’t last long. Bynum didn’t last long. Embiid is looking shaky. None of them were Shaq.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2020 6:40 pm    Post subject:

Different styles.

Shaq in his prime though it was relatively brief was simply unstoppable in the low post by anything other than the officials rewarding flops.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2020 6:45 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:

Wilt was great, but you have to take some of his statistical accomplishments with a grain of salt. They reflect his ability but also reflect the era he played in.

When Wilt was averaging 26 rrp in 1962, Russell was averaging 24 rrp, Bellamy 19 rrp., and Pettit 19 rpg. So his rebounding average was a function of his ability, but also a reflection of teams taking a lot of shots and shooting at a low percentage (creating many rebound opportunities) and the wide variations in talent that are common in the early days of a sports league.


I bolded the above in your post but the entire post is spot on in my opinion.

Here is my take

Wilt was a special athlete, his size and speed had never been seen before. His stats are the best of all time, no doubt. That said, the competition was nowhere near what Shaq went against physically.

I have never seen a specimen like Shaq. He would carry huge NBA players hanging all over him trying to foul him and still dunk in his prime. He was a fierce beast and lead us along with the legendary Mamba to a Threepeat this observer will not forget any time soon.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2020 4:39 am    Post subject:

LakerLanny wrote:
Different styles.

Shaq in his prime though it was relatively brief was simply unstoppable in the low post by anything other than the officials rewarding flops.


I never saw Wilt play (other than youtube clips) but from what I read, Kareem did OK against him when he went pro in the early 70's. My point is, if Kareem is used as the bridging yard-stick, Wilt is not some once in a century freak that has never been seen since, he is in the same tier as Kareem and Shaq.
On defense, Shaq would do better than (almost) anyone Wilt ever faced due to Shaq's amazing agility for his size (younger Shaq). Remember Wilt didn't have Kareem's range/skill. On offense, Wilt would likely defend Shaq better than almost anyone Shaq ever faced, due to Wilt's uncanny agility. HOWEVER Shaq has a significant size advantage! So .. definite edge to Shaq.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2020 5:44 am    Post subject:

Both.

But only one dominated the NBA record book to a ridiculous degree and still, a half century later, still holds many of those records.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2020 6:05 am    Post subject:

Comparing for eras is completely subjective. Wilt was dominant over his competition. Had he been born 40 years later, he had the tools to be dominant, as evidenced by his size and by his track and field accomplishments. But... we'll never know, and trying to figure it out is a fool's errand.

One can just as easily say, had Shaq been born 40 years earlier, he would have been dominant until he fouled out at the 15 minute mark of every game he played and got called for traveling every other possession. Easy mark for whistles every drive to the basket. It was a different era. It's almost certain he also would have needed to adjust his style. Also, he would not have had access to the same training or medical care. But he had the size to be dominant. That's all we know.

This is why I don't subscribe to 'let's pretend' games using eras as a barometer.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2020 7:54 am    Post subject:

Shaq is the MDE. Not even close. Wilt was the MDE of his era but had he gone up against 1999-2000 Shaq he would have got his ass busted.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2020 8:15 am    Post subject:

Wilt was WAY before my time (I’m 40). But anyone who saw Shaq live in person will tell you that he was a total beast.

Shaq went up against legends like Robinson, Duncan, Olajuwon, Yao Ming. People forget that the season Wilt scored 100 there were only 9 teams in the league (btw this was also when Boston won most of their titles). It was a totally different landscape.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2020 8:40 am    Post subject:

buduan wrote:
Shaq is the MDE. Not even close. Wilt was the MDE of his era but had he gone up against 1999-2000 Shaq he would have got his ass busted.


I think Shaq would have fouled out trying to guard Wilt...
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:14 am    Post subject:

buduan wrote:
Shaq is the MDE. Not even close. Wilt was the MDE of his era but had he gone up against 1999-2000 Shaq he would have got his ass busted.


2000-2001 the team went 15-1 in the playoffs. Against Rasheed Wallace, against Chris Webber, against the Twin Towers Duncan and Robinson, against Dikembe Mutombo.

I'll never forget Shaq with back to back 40 point 20 rebound games against the Kings, who were the hottest team in the NBA at that time. Next season Shaq has the big toe injury and the Kings almost beat us in a close 7 game series.

That year both Kobe and Shaq were on another level in the playoffs. Best duo ever.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:18 am    Post subject:

unleasHell wrote:
buduan wrote:
Shaq is the MDE. Not even close. Wilt was the MDE of his era but had he gone up against 1999-2000 Shaq he would have got his ass busted.


I think Shaq would have fouled out trying to guard Wilt...


I don't see why. Shaq never fouled out against David Robinson who is probably the most comparable modern player to Wilt in terms of athleticism, strength and style of play.

If you could put them in a time machine, I find Shaq and Wilt in their prime would have great battles.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2020 12:45 pm    Post subject:

Wilt was restricted by rules so its an unfair comparison. Shaq would foul out by halftime each game if he tried to body his opponents in the 60s like he did in his time. Wilt was bigger, quicker, stronger, faster, more athletic, so he takes it for me. His other problem was that he was afraid of his own strength, so he would try to avoid physicality due to being cautious for his opponents health/life. Despite these restrictions, he put up 40-25-3.5 on 51%FG, and God knows how many blocks and steals, in his 1st 7 years in the league. He led the league in scoring all of those 7 years, in rebounds 5/7 years, FG% 4/7 years, and minutes pg 6/7 years. Then someone convinced him (he himself after seeing the Celtics win each year?) he has to have the offense run through him as a facilitator if he wants to 'win', so he changed his game and took way less shots. It resulted in a big drop in point averages, 20-21-5.5, but on 62%FG (and somehow even worse FT%), and 2 rings/5 finals, so i guess it paid off?

Shaq exploited the rules wonderfully and was one of the most successful Lakers ever with a 3peat, but id love to see him try bullying Wilt in the post
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