| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
lar9149
Star Player
Joined: 10 Jul 2010
Posts: 2387
|
 Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2020 7:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
The Lakers got to one of their best starts with Malone/Payton/Shaq (no Kobe) of the season. I think they were quite dominant and I have no doubt the combo of Kobe/Shaq/Malone/Payton beats any team.
But unfortunately after the injury, it looked like Malone last some his vertical jump. He was not as effective.
So if Malone didn't get hurt at all that year, the Lakers take it all. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Steve007
Franchise Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2006
Posts: 13227
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| non-player zealot wrote: | | GOODRICH25 wrote: | | What bugs me more than this is 2003 vs the Spurs. We came back from 18 behind in the 4th and then Horrys 3 rims out. We lost all momentum and they won game 6 in LA. If that shot goes in, i think we win a 4peat |
Horry 2/38 from trey in 03 playoffs. After he finally missed a clutch shot, we thought he was all dried up. However, we get rid of him, the Spurs take our sloppies as they later did with Pau, and he winds up hitting a title clincher for THEM in 05. |
Horry was horrible against us in 04 fwiw. I always suspected that going against his old team affected him mentally. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Richcbt
Starting Rotation
Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 330
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2020 2:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Yes. Easy question, and I've said that since that year was over. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CabinCreek44
Star Player
Joined: 16 Apr 2001
Posts: 3856
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2020 4:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Yes I think they do, before Malone was hurt they looked quite imposing.
As for the squabbling/bickering, that had been going on for years and they managed to win 3 in a row before Malone and Payton were anywhere in sight.
The Pistons caught lightning in a bottle and they won it and that’s all that matters. But I figured them at the time as a one and done, and indeed they were. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
unleasHell
Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Apr 2001
Posts: 11591
Location: Stay Thirsty my Friends
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2020 4:36 pm Post subject: Re: Do the Lakers win the 2004 Finals if Malone Didn't Get Hurt? |
|
|
| yinoma2001 wrote: | Thoughts?
I've been re-watching Malone clips from that season and man was he good at his age/mileage. I know our depth wasn't the greatest being top heavy and with 2 older guys in Malone/GP, but could we have beaten the Pistons if Malone was healthy? |
Everyone thought the Lakers would plow through the league that season (Similar to how the 70+ win GSW added Durant), when the Lakers added both Malone and Payton to the mix.
But they were both slow to adapt to the Triangle offense and Phil was unwilling and unflexable to change things up to play to their strengths.
Consequently, 40 year old Malone, in addition to missing 40 games, had his lowest scoring output of his 19 year career.
Add to that the Triangle does not need a true PG and adding one of the best ever, even at 35, Payton averaged his lowest minutes, assists and points in the previous 12 years.
The previous year the Lakers sucked, winning "only" 50 games and Shaq/Kobe missed a combined 32 games, and the previous three years before that was the 3 straight championships.
So by the time the 2003-2004 season began, Kobe had been arrested in Colorado, which later caused friction with Shaq, then Kobe had his blow-up with Malone and by the time of the playoffs came, the train was off the rails and even with Malone back, he was not at 100% and the the heavily favored Lakers barely showed up and got steamrolled by the Pistons.
Which left a horrible taste in everybody's mouth Malone retired, Shaq was traded, Payton left, Jack and the Coaching staff was gone and the mess spilled over into the next season where they won only 34 games...
So the long-winded answer to your question is: MAYBE...
_________________
“Always remember... Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots.”
Last edited by unleasHell on Sat Apr 11, 2020 5:00 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
activeverb
Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 37470
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2020 7:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Of course we do. Your team always wins the what-if imaginary scenarios that can never be proven or disproven.
That's why every team in the league has 10 what-if imaginary rings |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Hammett
Star Player
Joined: 20 Dec 2008
Posts: 9453
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2020 10:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
Bleh. That team was doomed from the beginning when Kobe got caught in Colorado.
_________________
Lakers. Built different. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Steve007
Franchise Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2006
Posts: 13227
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2020 4:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| activeverb wrote: | Of course we do. Your team always wins the what-if imaginary scenarios that can never be proven or disproven.
That's why every team in the league has 10 what-if imaginary rings |
I can’t even think of one what-if imaginary ring for the Clippers. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
activeverb
Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 37470
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2020 5:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Steve007 wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | Of course we do. Your team always wins the what-if imaginary scenarios that can never be proven or disproven.
That's why every team in the league has 10 what-if imaginary rings |
I can’t even think of one what-if imaginary ring for the Clippers. |
Believe me, if Carmelo Anthony can give himself a what-if ring for 2009, I suspect Clippers fans have no trouble giving themselves a couple of what-if rings. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SuperboyReformed
Star Player
Joined: 07 Oct 2012
Posts: 4083
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2020 10:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
it's not just malone, though that was a big deal.
The refs were making crazy calls, it was crazy. billups was getting a parade to the ft line. the Laker team was in foul trouble nearly every quarter of the finals with like 9 minutes left. fisher was getting whistled for crazy ticky tacks, kobe was getting hammered. there was a play where ben wallace falls compeltely on kobe's back and no call, and then they whistle fisher when he basically gets into position to defend billups and puts his hands up barely touching him. Series was a complete joke. Shaq got called for jumping on the jump ball too early, like at least 3 games of the series. the officiating was so bad. it was the worst i ever saw...until i saw wade vs dallas in the finals. then over the years it got so bad, we're all numb to it now and don't even notice.
now, everyone thinks its because malone was injured and the team imploded. which is not true imo, it was like 90% officiating, and it was extremely frustrating. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
yinoma2001
Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 119487
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 10:59 am Post subject: |
|
|
Did you watch Slava/Luke painfully try to guard Rasheed Wallace?
Still a crap shoot and I still tend to think it's unlikely we win even with Malone, but if healthy he would have at least not made that matchup an open festering wound.
_________________
From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Steve007
Franchise Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2006
Posts: 13227
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 11:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| activeverb wrote: | | Steve007 wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | Of course we do. Your team always wins the what-if imaginary scenarios that can never be proven or disproven.
That's why every team in the league has 10 what-if imaginary rings |
I can’t even think of one what-if imaginary ring for the Clippers. |
Believe me, if Carmelo Anthony can give himself a what-if ring for 2009, I suspect Clippers fans have no trouble giving themselves a couple of what-if rings. |
I think it’s a much bigger stretch to give the Clippers any what-if rings. In the most successful years with CP3, they were 4-7, 6-7 and 7-7 in the playoffs. That’s a lot worse than Denver going 8-2 in the first two rounds and 10-6 overall in the 2009 playoffs. And the Clippers hadn’t even run into Lebron James or the teams that won a title in those years. They couldn’t even get past the second round like Denver did.
I might take back what I said in a few months though. If the postseason is canceled this year, I do think there will be Clipper fans at least speculating about what could have been in 2020 (and Laker fans will do the same thing here). I always thought they had a better shot at winning a ring with Kawhi than with CP3.
Last edited by Steve007 on Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:07 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nonamehero
Starting Rotation
Joined: 31 Oct 2018
Posts: 813
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 11:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| LakerLanny wrote: | | Nonamehero wrote: |
Completely agree with this analysis.
But watching those games tells a more lopsided story.
There were too many momentum swing calls against the Lakers.
And the fact Shaq can’t even look at Billups and not be called a foul. It was ridiculous.
NBA won’t let Lakers win that year since Kobe was the front page news for negative publicity.
If they call it fair, I think it would still be a competitive series, but Lakers take it in 6 even without Malone.
The Lakers had the matchup favor against Detroit.
But the Ref never let that materialize.
And the Lakers kinda self destroyed itself when it got tough. |
I really don't see how anyone could watch that series and not see what was going on.
I have not seen a single jump ball violation called on the opening tap of a playoff game ever since.
Kobe and Shaq at their most dominant and we shoot LESS ft's in every single game?
Come on Man.
It was obviously rigged, for whatever reason the league was going to do everything in the power not to let the Lakers win 4 in a row and they were able to do it using some of the worst officials in the history of the NBA. |
Yah it was really bad.
That series was overlooked by many, because everyone wanted Lakers to lose at the time.
Not as bad as the Dallas Miami series.
But it was bad |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
hydrohead
Star Player
Joined: 14 Jul 2003
Posts: 4112
Location: Space City
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 8:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
| activeverb wrote: | Of course we do. Your team always wins the what-if imaginary scenarios that can never be proven or disproven.
That's why every team in the league has 10 what-if imaginary rings |
Dang right! And we would have beat the Bulls in 91 if Worthy didn't have to play through a high ankle sprain.
_________________
Darvin  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LakersInFour
Star Player
Joined: 16 Apr 2001
Posts: 6725
Location: New Mexico
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 8:24 am Post subject: |
|
|
| SuperboyReformed wrote: | it's not just malone, though that was a big deal.
The refs were making crazy calls, it was crazy. billups was getting a parade to the ft line. the Laker team was in foul trouble nearly every quarter of the finals with like 9 minutes left. fisher was getting whistled for crazy ticky tacks, kobe was getting hammered. there was a play where ben wallace falls compeltely on kobe's back and no call, and then they whistle fisher when he basically gets into position to defend billups and puts his hands up barely touching him. Series was a complete joke. Shaq got called for jumping on the jump ball too early, like at least 3 games of the series. the officiating was so bad. it was the worst i ever saw...until i saw wade vs dallas in the finals. then over the years it got so bad, we're all numb to it now and don't even notice.
now, everyone thinks its because malone was injured and the team imploded. which is not true imo, it was like 90% officiating, and it was extremely frustrating. |
The league wasn't going to let Kobe win a Finals MVP with the Colorado trial going on.
_________________
"It’s like going to the Getty and standing in front of Van Gogh’s Irises while some schmuck next to you critiques individual brush strokes. Just shut up already. The more you talk, the more you embarrass yourself." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Steve007
Franchise Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2006
Posts: 13227
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:52 am Post subject: |
|
|
| hydrohead wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | Of course we do. Your team always wins the what-if imaginary scenarios that can never be proven or disproven.
That's why every team in the league has 10 what-if imaginary rings |
Dang right! And we would have beat the Bulls in 91 if Worthy didn't have to play through a high ankle sprain. |
That is one reason why we have discussions like this. Our team has made the Finals 31 times. So we’re going to have a lot of years when we were really close. And that was with greats like West, Wilt, Magic, Kareem, Worthy, Shaq, Kobe, etc. And now there is Lebron and AD. Many other teams don’t have a list of players with names like that. Some teams still haven’t made the Finals yet.
On the other hand, there were years when our team barely won too. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SuperboyReformed
Star Player
Joined: 07 Oct 2012
Posts: 4083
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| LakersInFour wrote: | | SuperboyReformed wrote: | it's not just malone, though that was a big deal.
The refs were making crazy calls, it was crazy. billups was getting a parade to the ft line. the Laker team was in foul trouble nearly every quarter of the finals with like 9 minutes left. fisher was getting whistled for crazy ticky tacks, kobe was getting hammered. there was a play where ben wallace falls compeltely on kobe's back and no call, and then they whistle fisher when he basically gets into position to defend billups and puts his hands up barely touching him. Series was a complete joke. Shaq got called for jumping on the jump ball too early, like at least 3 games of the series. the officiating was so bad. it was the worst i ever saw...until i saw wade vs dallas in the finals. then over the years it got so bad, we're all numb to it now and don't even notice.
now, everyone thinks its because malone was injured and the team imploded. which is not true imo, it was like 90% officiating, and it was extremely frustrating. |
The league wasn't going to let Kobe win a Finals MVP with the Colorado trial going on. |
so true....i wish i had the "evidence" people needed for such statements. i'll never forget chappelles joke about this lollllllll |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
slavavov
Star Player
Joined: 03 Oct 2003
Posts: 8352
Location: Santa Monica
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I honestly don't think we would've won that championship even if Malone had been healthy the whole season.
Kobe played like total crap in 4 of those 5 games, and Shaq didn't defend, rebound or box out well the whole series. But there's another reason why we wouldn't have won:
The roster was flawed from the start. We had the 4 HoFs, but little else. Horry and Brian Shaw were gone. Rick Fox was done. We had no depth, and were relying on Devean George, who had almost no BBIQ, to start at the 3.
We did a bad job of drafting the past several years, passing up on guys like Kirilenko, Michael Redd and Carlos Boozer who could've helped us stay dominant and young. IMO that's a huge reason why we had to trade Shaq and remodel while Kobe was still young. Kobe and Shaq likely would've have won any more titles together because our vets were gone and we had no young pieces, let alone a third star to give them support.
_________________
Lakers 49ers Chargers Dodgers |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
1hu2ren3dui4
Franchise Player
Joined: 19 Jul 2002
Posts: 15403
Location: Oak Park
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 11:57 am Post subject: |
|
|
I think so. Biggest disadvantage that series was they allowed one of the Wallace brothers to spy Kobe at all times. That was basically because sheed could sag way off a gimpy Malone (or Slava) and stand ready to double Shaq but more importantly to shade anywhere kobe was going.
Decently healthy Malone to keep them honest changes that cheesy strategy and makes that a real series. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cx44
Starting Rotation
Joined: 24 Jul 2007
Posts: 376
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 1:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Hell Yes! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Runway8
Franchise Player
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Posts: 22854
Location: La Jolla, San Diego
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 1:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| 1hu2ren3dui4 wrote: | I think so. Biggest disadvantage that series was they allowed one of the Wallace brothers to spy Kobe at all times. That was basically because sheed could sag way off a gimpy Malone (or Slava) and stand ready to double Shaq but more importantly to shade anywhere kobe was going.
Decently healthy Malone to keep them honest changes that cheesy strategy and makes that a real series. |
C'mon man, take off those homer goggles. We lost to a cheesy strategy? What does that say about us? LOL!
I don't know why this topic bothers me. I guess it's because we always stick our chest out regarding Shaq and Kobe. Heck, many here believe Kobe is better than MJ, or the greatest ever. Yet we want to believe 40 yr old Malone was the reason we lost. You telling me if we didn't sign Malone that summer, we had zero chance to win in 2004? Somehow, the dynasty hinged on Malone leaving Utah? They were heavy favorites regardless of Malone. I don't think Shaq and Kobe would agree to this weak argument. I think they would own up to it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Runway8
Franchise Player
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Posts: 22854
Location: La Jolla, San Diego
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 1:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| I think it's weak. I think you give credit where credit is due. This wasn't a 4-3 series. I might even buy it if it was 4-2, but it was 4-1 domination, and the 1 win required a Kobe heroic. Do we like it when Doc says their starting 5 never lost? Do we bring up Kendrick Perkins? Do we bring up Isiah limping in the 88 finals? We had our super stars, Shaq and Kobe were healthy. They lost. Own it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JUST-MING
Retired Number
Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 43990
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I felt they got cheated by the refs anyways.
The jumpball violations, free throw discrepancy which led to the first finals mvp to make more free throws than field goals, and of course, our all-nba players not being able to buy a foul. It was rigged. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Kobesdad
Sixth Man
Joined: 22 Dec 2009
Posts: 48
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 7:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| x75274 wrote: | | Steve007 wrote: | | x75274 wrote: | I lean heavily towards no and going into that series I thought like almost everyone, that LA was going to beat the snot out of Detroit especially after we had taken out SAS after being down 0-2 in the WCSF. Mailman was great/awesome in his role for us but he would have had raise his level to such an extent that far exceeded his role for us. Watching that series live and then hearing Kobe talking about the reasons why they lost to the Pistons, it was a fundamental issue of not being able to break the Pistons trap defense and score consistently and efficiently. Truth be told, I feel the Pistons had another gear they could reach that the Lakers could not because of their defense and the Lakers lack of preparation for dealing with the Pistons (with or without Malone). This is weird for me because the Lakers had just dealt with statistically the greatest Spurs version in term of their defense and beat the Spurs decisively, leaving no doubt who was the superior team.
I personally think the bigger what if is if you take the 2010 Lakers motivation and chemistry onto the 2011 Lakers version (especially you Pau Gasol excluding Andrew Bynum and keeping him at his 2011 level since he was better in 2011 than 2010) to go up against the 2011 Mavericks, who would win. |
I think the Spurs would have stomped us too if Malone was as banged up in that series as he was in the Finals. Slave Medvedenko playing against Tim Duncan. Need I say more?
Our team couldn’t defend the Pistons either. With Malone in there the defense/rebounding would be significantly better. Rasheed Wallace had it way too easy in that series. |
There were a couple of weird things that happened.
1. R. Wallace even in game 1 showed an almost disregard and disrespect for Malone and gave off the attitude of 'I know I am better than you' something ironically Garnett and Duncan never did and those 2 are definitely better than Wallace. Was Malone truly banged up in Game 1 or did Wallace make him irrelevant? I'm not sure. It could be because Wallace in his Blazer days had taken out the last real chance for the Jazz to win the title in 1998-1999 and so he feels he is better than Malone, especially a 40 year old Malone.
2. If Malone could score like he did that one playoff game against the Rockets when he scored 30, we could have taken Game 4 and bought it back to LA for Game 6.
3. Personally I think even with Malone giving us that kind of vintage performance, game 6 is where it all ends for us that year unless Shaq goes off like he had been doing and Kobe finally wakes up and puts in a game 2 like performance. |
Malone frustrated KG and Duncan with his dirty play. You could see frustration on their faces. It worked in the Lakers favor because both guys were the best players on their teams and there was no way they were going to confront or fight Malone. Rasheed on the other hand is just straight up crazy and I think Malone also knew this. If he played dirty with Sheed that Sheed would retaliate. Plus Sheed had the experience of taking out Malone twice in the playoffs so he didn't respect him. Malone would have fallen apart against Sheed even if he was healthy. Sheed knew how to play him. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Kobesdad
Sixth Man
Joined: 22 Dec 2009
Posts: 48
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 8:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Runway8 wrote: | | 1hu2ren3dui4 wrote: | I think so. Biggest disadvantage that series was they allowed one of the Wallace brothers to spy Kobe at all times. That was basically because sheed could sag way off a gimpy Malone (or Slava) and stand ready to double Shaq but more importantly to shade anywhere kobe was going.
Decently healthy Malone to keep them honest changes that cheesy strategy and makes that a real series. |
C'mon man, take off those homer goggles. We lost to a cheesy strategy? What does that say about us? LOL!
I don't know why this topic bothers me. I guess it's because we always stick our chest out regarding Shaq and Kobe. Heck, many here believe Kobe is better than MJ, or the greatest ever. Yet we want to believe 40 yr old Malone was the reason we lost. You telling me if we didn't sign Malone that summer, we had zero chance to win in 2004? Somehow, the dynasty hinged on Malone leaving Utah? They were heavy favorites regardless of Malone. I don't think Shaq and Kobe would agree to this weak argument. I think they would own up to it. |
It pretty much did hinge on Malone. No way the Lakers get past the Spurs or Wolves without Malone. Especially the Spurs since they had figured out how to beat Shaq-Kobe. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
