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Batguano
Star Player
Joined: 19 Mar 2015
Posts: 2255
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 Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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| x75274 wrote: | | non-player zealot wrote: | | Batguano wrote: |
Trevor was younger and a better fit. Artest was slightly past his prime, the more talented player but an awkward fit.
At the end of the day you can't deny Artest's overall contributions to our championship run that year. I think it's pretty much a toss-up between him and Odom as to who the third best/most important player on the team was that year. Odom was more "consistent" than Artest (which is a weird thing top say, since Odom was kind of inconsistent), but Artest had the more memorable impact plays that stick out.
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Trimmed parts agreed upon. Basic agreement with all. Don't wanna sound like I was coming down on Artest who was himself one of the greatest reclamation stories in NBA history considering where he was at after The Malace. He definitely had enough moments and respect for the uniform/franchise to have made himself a "true Laker". We know a True Laker from someone who just happened to play here. Artest not only made overall contributions, but a few of them were so indelible, they'll be talked about decades later.
The opportunity cost of Artest vs Ariza wasn't really all that yuge up until 2011. It was after that when Artest started to degrade that we really coulda used Ariza's youth, open court athleticism, overall athleticism, cltuch play, his newly developed shot which was a shame to lose since it was here that he developed it (a rare thing when we develop good things in a yute). Good defender, too. Slim, yes, but not so much that we absolutely needed to replace him with Artest to have a chance in hell against the Celts. However, before we actually did it, we were under the backdrop of anxiety from 2008 and PP turned out better in 08 for the Smelts (including miraculous recovery from major knee injury requiring a wheelchaired exit) and 2010. PP wasn't the same player in 10. So we found out after the fact that we prolly didn't need Artest to stop him.
I think the major nit remaining over Artest vs Ariza that I like to pick is losing that midcourt defense and gazelle running from Trev in the years 2011, 2012 etc. We might've had a better chance against the Mavs in 2011, tho I dunno if that means a 6-7 gm loss as opposed to a sweep. We just became a molasses ass plodding team with not only Artest but a more aged Kobe/Fish/etc and a bulked up Bynum. Trev did the same things Kobe did, so having him lightened Kobe's load.
Bynum is the other thing that still gripes me. He was in perfect shape in 07/8 before he landed on Odom's foot. Agile, ran up court quickly, still dominated most remaining traditional bigs in the paint. Because his injury was problematic during a prolonged recovery and we knew he had structural knee problems even as a teen, having him go to Shaq weight was a stupid move. If he was allowed to do that on his own without any input from the FO/coach, it was stupid to allow him.
The other injury from Kobe falling on his knee was also accidental, but the weight made him slower and more prone to knee problems in general. Might've even caused more damage to his knee than it would've in a healthy knee that a player fell into. As it was, Jerome Kersey fell into Sam Bowie's knee in a scene that looked identical to Kobe/Drew. Sam, another injury case since college, had major complications from that. Otoh, in 97 with the Lakers, Kersey also fell into Horry's knee which only resulted in a ligament tear with reasonably short recovery time. As with Bowie, you needed to treat Drew's knees like eggshells. Aritest and Drew of 2013 on were blecch. They and Mike Brown produced the ugliest ball in the LA Era. We had nothing in the way of a guy who could dart in front of a defender for a steal and dunk like Trev did to Melo. |
I always say man - Bynum - the biggest what if. I truly believe he could have surpassed Duncan at least in terms of peak performance. You would see it too when we played the Spurs - Duncan would struggle against Bynum but Bynum had no problem backing Duncan down. Imagine the athleticism of 07/08 Bynum with the skill of Bynum from Jan 09 forward (this is the brief period when Bynum overtook Pau as the clear #2 and the Lakers kept feeding the beast with Bynum even scoring 42 his career high against the Clippers. This period all ending of course after Kobe bashed into Bynums knee). If he wasnt born knock-kneed and had horrible luck with teammates injuring him, he could have reached his potential. |
My understanding was that Phil and the coaching staff recognized Bynum had a problematic/awkward running gait which could potentially lead to knee/leg problems since 2005 when they drafted him. Which is a big reason why they brought him along so slowly and didn't play him all that much his first couple of seasons, thinking they could preserve him that way. Yes, he had bad luck with players falling into his knee, but that happens in basketball all the time and not many players get instantly injured by it like Bynum did multiple times. Seems like bad genetics/biomechanics than anything. |
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oasisdude77
Star Player
Joined: 02 Oct 2007
Posts: 2737
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2020 9:16 am Post subject: |
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| Batguano wrote: | | x75274 wrote: | | non-player zealot wrote: | | Batguano wrote: |
Trevor was younger and a better fit. Artest was slightly past his prime, the more talented player but an awkward fit.
At the end of the day you can't deny Artest's overall contributions to our championship run that year. I think it's pretty much a toss-up between him and Odom as to who the third best/most important player on the team was that year. Odom was more "consistent" than Artest (which is a weird thing top say, since Odom was kind of inconsistent), but Artest had the more memorable impact plays that stick out.
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Trimmed parts agreed upon. Basic agreement with all. Don't wanna sound like I was coming down on Artest who was himself one of the greatest reclamation stories in NBA history considering where he was at after The Malace. He definitely had enough moments and respect for the uniform/franchise to have made himself a "true Laker". We know a True Laker from someone who just happened to play here. Artest not only made overall contributions, but a few of them were so indelible, they'll be talked about decades later.
The opportunity cost of Artest vs Ariza wasn't really all that yuge up until 2011. It was after that when Artest started to degrade that we really coulda used Ariza's youth, open court athleticism, overall athleticism, cltuch play, his newly developed shot which was a shame to lose since it was here that he developed it (a rare thing when we develop good things in a yute). Good defender, too. Slim, yes, but not so much that we absolutely needed to replace him with Artest to have a chance in hell against the Celts. However, before we actually did it, we were under the backdrop of anxiety from 2008 and PP turned out better in 08 for the Smelts (including miraculous recovery from major knee injury requiring a wheelchaired exit) and 2010. PP wasn't the same player in 10. So we found out after the fact that we prolly didn't need Artest to stop him.
I think the major nit remaining over Artest vs Ariza that I like to pick is losing that midcourt defense and gazelle running from Trev in the years 2011, 2012 etc. We might've had a better chance against the Mavs in 2011, tho I dunno if that means a 6-7 gm loss as opposed to a sweep. We just became a molasses ass plodding team with not only Artest but a more aged Kobe/Fish/etc and a bulked up Bynum. Trev did the same things Kobe did, so having him lightened Kobe's load.
Bynum is the other thing that still gripes me. He was in perfect shape in 07/8 before he landed on Odom's foot. Agile, ran up court quickly, still dominated most remaining traditional bigs in the paint. Because his injury was problematic during a prolonged recovery and we knew he had structural knee problems even as a teen, having him go to Shaq weight was a stupid move. If he was allowed to do that on his own without any input from the FO/coach, it was stupid to allow him.
The other injury from Kobe falling on his knee was also accidental, but the weight made him slower and more prone to knee problems in general. Might've even caused more damage to his knee than it would've in a healthy knee that a player fell into. As it was, Jerome Kersey fell into Sam Bowie's knee in a scene that looked identical to Kobe/Drew. Sam, another injury case since college, had major complications from that. Otoh, in 97 with the Lakers, Kersey also fell into Horry's knee which only resulted in a ligament tear with reasonably short recovery time. As with Bowie, you needed to treat Drew's knees like eggshells. Aritest and Drew of 2013 on were blecch. They and Mike Brown produced the ugliest ball in the LA Era. We had nothing in the way of a guy who could dart in front of a defender for a steal and dunk like Trev did to Melo. |
I always say man - Bynum - the biggest what if. I truly believe he could have surpassed Duncan at least in terms of peak performance. You would see it too when we played the Spurs - Duncan would struggle against Bynum but Bynum had no problem backing Duncan down. Imagine the athleticism of 07/08 Bynum with the skill of Bynum from Jan 09 forward (this is the brief period when Bynum overtook Pau as the clear #2 and the Lakers kept feeding the beast with Bynum even scoring 42 his career high against the Clippers. This period all ending of course after Kobe bashed into Bynums knee). If he wasnt born knock-kneed and had horrible luck with teammates injuring him, he could have reached his potential. |
My understanding was that Phil and the coaching staff recognized Bynum had a problematic/awkward running gait which could potentially lead to knee/leg problems since 2005 when they drafted him. Which is a big reason why they brought him along so slowly and didn't play him all that much his first couple of seasons, thinking they could preserve him that way. Yes, he had bad luck with players falling into his knee, but that happens in basketball all the time and not many players get instantly injured by it like Bynum did multiple times. Seems like bad genetics/biomechanics than anything. |
Yeah, bad knees, bad luck with injuries. But most of all, basketball wasn't everything to him. I think it was the fact that it came so easy to him and he made a lot of money, it facilitated a lot of his other hobbies.
Not to say he didn't work hard though. Because from 2008-2011, he was pretty dominant.
And to think, he's still only 32 
Definitely a case of what could have been. |
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TDRock
Retired Number
Joined: 27 May 2010
Posts: 49091
Location: LA to the Bay
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2020 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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NBATV is showing some old PHX/LAL game and I’m watching it like a pipe fiend. GawedT I miss watching and talking about b-ball  |
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