Michael Cooper or Byron Scott?
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Michael Cooper or Byron Scott
Michael Cooper
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Byron Scott
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 2:53 pm    Post subject:

OCWA wrote:
Easily Cooper. Not even close. Coop should be in hall of fame. I'm serious.



Hard to put a guy in the Hall of Fame who never made a single all-star team, only averaged 27 mpg for his career, and put up a career stat line of 9-3-4.

But you can certainly make the case that great o players who played no d are in the hall so why not the other way around. And then you make the case for Bruce Bowen, Bobby Jones, Alvin Robertson, Mark Eaton, and Ben Wallace.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 2:56 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
OCWA wrote:
Easily Cooper. Not even close. Coop should be in hall of fame. I'm serious.



Hard to put a guy in the Hall of Fame who never made a single all-star team, only averaged 27 mpg for his career, and put up a career stat line of 9-3-4.

But you can certainly make the case that great o players who played no d are in the hall so why not the other way around. And then you make the case for Bruce Bowen, Bobby Jones, Alvin Robertson, Mark Eaton, and Ben Wallace.


Given his coaching success during the infancy of the WNBA, he may even have a stronger case than the rest--it is the Basketball Hall of Fame, after all.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 2:06 am    Post subject:

LakerDYnasty72 wrote:
Question for ya'll. You've got the first pick in an historically rich draft. All, and I do mean all players (Wilt, Kareem, Jordan, Magic, Shaq, Our Beloved Fallen One) etc. are there for the taking.

Who do you take?


Jordan. LeBron.

Dominance and longevity. No disrespect to Kareem, just the modern NBA is different.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 3:49 am    Post subject:

To answer the first question and title of the thread, Coop. All day long.

Loved B Scott and he was a vital player as well. But Coop gave it at both ends of the floor, and yes he worked Bird for all he was worth, not to mention Dr. J, Iceman, MJ etc. Coop was also one of the great underrated clutch shooters. Drained many a big shot in many a big moment. And he was fearless, he once went after James Donaldson, a man very much bigger than Coop. He'd fight anybody. Very tough and strong-willed guy.

To answer the other question, I always come back to Bill Russell. Talk about strong-willed. Don't discount him because he played in the stone ages. The man was all heart, soul and supreme intelligence on the floor, and he gave Wilt hell, and Wilt is still probably the single strongest human being that ever played the game, not to mention a great overall athlete.

Kareem never gets his due in my opinion. Still the all-time leading scorer 31 years after his final game, 6 titles, only big man who won more was Russell. And don't forget the dominance of Lew Alcindor at UCLA. 3 national championships in 3 tries, and it would have been 4 for 4 if freshmen had been eligible to play varsity when he arrived in Westwood.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 3:51 am    Post subject:

Oh, and it's still a shame that the Lakers have never retired Michael Cooper's number. I don't care whatever their criteria is. If ever there was a role player whose jersey deserved to be retired, it's Michael F Cooper.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:56 am    Post subject:

CabinCreek44 wrote:
And he was fearless, he once went after James Donaldson, a man very much bigger than Coop. He'd fight anybody. Very tough and strong-willed guy.


I saw that moment, 84 pretty sure. Ponderous Donaldson with the SD Clippers at the time. And I believe that was right before or after he had a shove against Bob Lanier. Coop got in a shoving match with Karl Malone once. He liked his targets large, I guess. That scrub Pat Cummings on the Knicks throwing a punch at AC and Coop jumped on his back, spilling into the front row. Perkins clotheslining Scott out of the air in 88 and Coop pushed Derek Harp down a few mins later, he waited for the opportunity to give payback. Perk's clothesline was as bad as McHale's tbh, but he didn't have Lurch's rep as a hatchetman. One was accidental, the other not as much.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 9:02 am    Post subject:

CabinCreek44 wrote:
Oh, and it's still a shame that the Lakers have never retired Michael Cooper's number. I don't care whatever their criteria is. If ever there was a role player whose jersey deserved to be retired, it's Michael F Cooper.


Damn straight. He should be the exception to the rule. He gave blood, sweat, guts, nuts, and tears for fears for the Lakers in 5 title seasons and a full career. Took the task of guarding any G/F giving us the biz. Sleepy scores 51? Coop snuffs him out the next night, Floyd all pissy and trying to square up to him towards the end of the game as GS is being sent bye-bye. Remember a rugged 83 SA playoff gm where Gene Banks was giving them a spark and Coop got on him and pissed him off the point of swings, both were ejected. Lakers won at SA. The 1990 game at SA that Byron won at the buzzer with a trey, Coop was stretchered out earlier for jumping back first into the crowd to save a ball and he hit his head on the cement floor in the walkway and was out cold. Classic Coop sacrifice moment. There was also that brilliant block of Dale Ellis in the 87 Sonics series to secure a 1 point Laker win. Coop was running at Ellis before he even had the ball, he knew Dale could turn and shoot on a dime, so when Dale got it and put it up, Coop was there to get a finger on it.

He was our talker, too. You hate those guys like Ced Maxwell on other teams, but love them when they're on yours. Hypocritical fan thing. In 87 Finals interview with Jim Hill, he throws a Bird cutout into the pool. He wasn't afraid of Larry Legend. Mychal T mentioned the Tyson-Pinklon Thomas fight in the vid below, recently rewatched that. Man, Pinklon had a solid chin, he took 5 blasts from Mike in a row before dropping.

https://youtu.be/iryoXduEUqg?t=284
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 9:36 am    Post subject:

Cutheon wrote:
activeverb wrote:
OCWA wrote:
Easily Cooper. Not even close. Coop should be in hall of fame. I'm serious.



Hard to put a guy in the Hall of Fame who never made a single all-star team, only averaged 27 mpg for his career, and put up a career stat line of 9-3-4.

But you can certainly make the case that great o players who played no d are in the hall so why not the other way around. And then you make the case for Bruce Bowen, Bobby Jones, Alvin Robertson, Mark Eaton, and Ben Wallace.


Given his coaching success during the infancy of the WNBA, he may even have a stronger case than the rest--it is the Basketball Hall of Fame, after all.



I don't think that's the way it works.

You can be voted in as a player or voted in as a coach.

But a coach doesn't get extra credit for his playing career and vice versa.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 9:42 am    Post subject:

non-player zealot wrote:
CabinCreek44 wrote:
Oh, and it's still a shame that the Lakers have never retired Michael Cooper's number. I don't care whatever their criteria is. If ever there was a role player whose jersey deserved to be retired, it's Michael F Cooper.


Damn straight. He should be the exception to the rule.


If they retire Coop, they'd also have to consider retiring Byron Scott, AC Greene, Happy Hairston, Derek Fisher and Lamar Odom. I'd say they are all roughly on the same tier, so it's just a debate on where you draw the draw.

Right now it's easy because they have the clear Hall of Fame line.

I doubt the Lakers feel any need to open up that can of worms.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 10:30 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
non-player zealot wrote:
CabinCreek44 wrote:
Oh, and it's still a shame that the Lakers have never retired Michael Cooper's number. I don't care whatever their criteria is. If ever there was a role player whose jersey deserved to be retired, it's Michael F Cooper.


Damn straight. He should be the exception to the rule.


If they retire Coop, they'd also have to consider retiring Byron Scott, AC Greene, Happy Hairston, Derek Fisher and Lamar Odom. I'd say they are all roughly on the same tier, so it's just a debate on where you draw the draw.

Right now it's easy because they have the clear Hall of Fame line.

I doubt the Lakers feel any need to open up that can of worms.


Concur AV, I loved Coop but retire #21? Nah, that's a different echelon of a player. The only player up there now that I'd have a slight disagreement about is Stumpy.

Not much has been discussed about him, but Pau Gasol would divide a few of us. My vote for retiring Gasol's jersey? Yes. He instantly transformed our team when he was paired w/KB, immediately made us a championship level team, took his lumps when we lost to the _eltics by 39, came back and lead us along side KB to back to back championships.

I think there would be little to no debate if Gasol had won 3 championships along side KB, but 2 can't me minimized.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 10:36 am    Post subject:

CabinCreek44 wrote:
To answer the first question and title of the thread, Coop. All day long.

Loved B Scott and he was a vital player as well. But Coop gave it at both ends of the floor, and yes he worked Bird for all he was worth, not to mention Dr. J, Iceman, MJ etc. Coop was also one of the great underrated clutch shooters. Drained many a big shot in many a big moment. And he was fearless, he once went after James Donaldson, a man very much bigger than Coop. He'd fight anybody. Very tough and strong-willed guy.

To answer the other question, I always come back to Bill Russell. Talk about strong-willed. Don't discount him because he played in the stone ages. The man was all heart, soul and supreme intelligence on the floor, and he gave Wilt hell, and Wilt is still probably the single strongest human being that ever played the game, not to mention a great overall athlete.

Kareem never gets his due in my opinion. Still the all-time leading scorer 31 years after his final game, 6 titles, only big man who won more was Russell. And don't forget the dominance of Lew Alcindor at UCLA. 3 national championships in 3 tries, and it would have been 4 for 4 if freshmen had been eligible to play varsity when he arrived in Westwood.


Exactly. This entire comment, on all topics, is spot on.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 10:38 am    Post subject:

LakerDYnasty72 wrote:
activeverb wrote:
non-player zealot wrote:
CabinCreek44 wrote:
Oh, and it's still a shame that the Lakers have never retired Michael Cooper's number. I don't care whatever their criteria is. If ever there was a role player whose jersey deserved to be retired, it's Michael F Cooper.


Damn straight. He should be the exception to the rule.


If they retire Coop, they'd also have to consider retiring Byron Scott, AC Greene, Happy Hairston, Derek Fisher and Lamar Odom. I'd say they are all roughly on the same tier, so it's just a debate on where you draw the draw.

Right now it's easy because they have the clear Hall of Fame line.

I doubt the Lakers feel any need to open up that can of worms.


Concur AV, I loved Coop but retire #21? Nah, that's a different echelon of a player. The only player up there now that I'd have a slight disagreement about is Stumpy.

Not much has been discussed about him, but Pau Gasol would divide a few of us. My vote for retiring Gasol's jersey? Yes. He instantly transformed our team when he was paired w/KB, immediately made us a championship level team, took his lumps when we lost to the _eltics by 39, came back and lead us along side KB to back to back championships.

I think there would be little to no debate if Gasol had won 3 championships along side KB, but 2 can't me minimized.


Personally, I like our Hall of Fame criteria, and I don't see it changing.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:19 pm    Post subject:

I think Lord Byron deserves more credit. At the time in the late 80s Magic and Byron were considered the premier backcourt ahead of Isiah and Joe, Porter and Drexler, Jordan and Paxson, KJ and Hornacek etc. Now in terms of 3 guard rotation only the Pistons could match us with the microwave but I would take Coop over Vinnie anyday. If you were to ask me in 1988 or 1989 who would I want to be the shooting guard next to Magic Johnson over Byron Scott, I would say only Michael Jordan for obvious reasons but even he would never be the perfect fit next to Magic that Byron was. If we were to include the entire 80s, the only other guard that I would want next to Magic more than Byron was the man we almost drafted ahead of Magic - The Squid: Sidney Moncrief

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:23 pm    Post subject:

CabinCreek44 wrote:

Coop was also one of the great underrated clutch shooters. Drained many a big shot in many a big moment.


1988 WCSF Gm 5, game winning shot https://youtu.be/MV8tpn6IY0M?t=40s
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:30 pm    Post subject:

JUST-MING wrote:
CabinCreek44 wrote:

Coop was also one of the great underrated clutch shooters. Drained many a big shot in many a big moment.


1988 WCSF Gm 5, game winning shot https://youtu.be/MV8tpn6IY0M?t=40s


That was a white knuckle series. Crazy how Stockton and Malone didn't ascend quicker after that year. They wasted their prime and didn't go to the finals until 1997.

But man Coop was looking done. He annoyed me the way Horry used to. And this is why we tend to glorify role players when we take a stroll down memory lane. Because I've always said we don't need their last minute heroics if they would only hit their shots in the first 45 minutes of the game. LOL!
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:41 pm    Post subject:

Runway8 wrote:
JUST-MING wrote:
CabinCreek44 wrote:

Coop was also one of the great underrated clutch shooters. Drained many a big shot in many a big moment.


1988 WCSF Gm 5, game winning shot https://youtu.be/MV8tpn6IY0M?t=40s


That was a white knuckle series. Crazy how Stockton and Malone didn't ascend quicker after that year. They wasted their prime and didn't go to the finals until 1997.

But man Coop was looking done. He annoyed me the way Horry used to. And this is why we tend to glorify role players when we take a stroll down memory lane. Because I've always said we don't need their last minute heroics if they would only hit their shots in the first 45 minutes of the game. LOL!


They did smack us twice though. That 1998 season was supposed to be in everyone's minds, our year to face the Bulls in the finals. Our boys were confident after destroying the 61-win Supersonics in 5 with a typical dominant Shaq, Eddie Jones finally deciding to show up in the playoffs, NVE doing his thing and Fox and Horry chipping in. So much talent with revenge on our minds, it would have surprised no one if we steamrolled the Jazz....except we got smacked even worse than the year before which was as unexpected as the 2011 Mavericks sweeping us.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 1:10 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
OCWA wrote:
Easily Cooper. Not even close. Coop should be in hall of fame. I'm serious.



Hard to put a guy in the Hall of Fame who never made a single all-star team, only averaged 27 mpg for his career, and put up a career stat line of 9-3-4.

But you can certainly make the case that great o players who played no d are in the hall so why not the other way around. And then you make the case for Bruce Bowen, Bobby Jones, Alvin Robertson, Mark Eaton, and Ben Wallace.


Bobby Jones is in the Hall of Fame and Ben Wallace deserves to be. Coop was the 3rd most important Showtime Laker. Only Magic and Kareem were more important.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 2:46 pm    Post subject:

x75274 wrote:
I think Lord Byron deserves more credit. At the time in the late 80s Magic and Byron were considered the premier backcourt ahead of Isiah and Joe, Porter and Drexler, Jordan and Paxson, KJ and Hornacek etc.



If the Lakers were the best back courtroom, it was mostly because of Magic, not Byron. So that's a semantics game where you are trying to give Byron credit that really doesn't belong to him.

In the late 80s, here are the guys who made an all-star team in the west over Byron: Jordan, Drexler, Alvin Robertson, Fat Lever, Dale Ellis, Rolando Blackman, and Walter Davis.

There were probably only a couple of years in his career where Byron was even in the top third of shooting guards in the league.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 2:55 pm    Post subject:

OCWA wrote:
Coop was the 3rd most important Showtime Laker. Only Magic and Kareem were more important.



Most people would give the #3 spot to James Worthy, probably followed by Jamaal Wilkes.

But Coop was certainly an important cog in the team.

I'd say the most comparable player to Coop in terms of importance/contributor to a dynasty would be Bruce Bowen of the Spurs. To me, Bpwen is #1 on Coop's peer group.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 3:52 pm    Post subject:

OCWA wrote:
activeverb wrote:
OCWA wrote:
Easily Cooper. Not even close. Coop should be in hall of fame. I'm serious.



Hard to put a guy in the Hall of Fame who never made a single all-star team, only averaged 27 mpg for his career, and put up a career stat line of 9-3-4.

But you can certainly make the case that great o players who played no d are in the hall so why not the other way around. And then you make the case for Bruce Bowen, Bobby Jones, Alvin Robertson, Mark Eaton, and Ben Wallace.


Bobby Jones is in the Hall of Fame and Ben Wallace deserves to be. Coop was the 3rd most important Showtime Laker. Only Magic and Kareem were more important.


This is what I mean when I say we tend to glorify role players when we take a stroll down memory lane. Cooper over Worthy is hyperbolic. You can't make a clear cut argument for Coop over AC Green or Byron Scott, let alone James Worthy.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:03 pm    Post subject:

CabinCreek44 wrote:
Oh, and it's still a shame that the Lakers have never retired Michael Cooper's number. I don't care whatever their criteria is. If ever there was a role player whose jersey deserved to be retired, it's Michael F Cooper.


You're damn right.

Players who've won 5 titles with the LA Lakers:

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Magic Johnson
Michael Cooper
Kobe Bryant
Derek Fisher
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:08 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
OCWA wrote:
Coop was the 3rd most important Showtime Laker. Only Magic and Kareem were more important.



Most people would give the #3 spot to James Worthy, probably followed by Jamaal Wilkes.

But Coop was certainly an important cog in the team.

I'd say the most comparable player to Coop in terms of importance/contributor to a dynasty would be Bruce Bowen of the Spurs. To me, Bpwen is #1 on Coop's peer group.


Cooper was an important Laker during the entire Showtime era. Worthy and Wilkes were more talented but their Laker careers didn't span the entire showtime era.

I don't see the Bowen comparison, but I didn't see as much of Bowen as I saw of Coop. Maybe defensively and the intangibles they are comparable, but I think Coop was a better all around player. Way better. Between 83-86 Coop averaged almost 6 assists a game coming off the bench. Coop could have gone to another team and had an expanded role and put up good offensive numbers.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:12 pm    Post subject:

Runway8 wrote:
OCWA wrote:
activeverb wrote:
OCWA wrote:
Easily Cooper. Not even close. Coop should be in hall of fame. I'm serious.



Hard to put a guy in the Hall of Fame who never made a single all-star team, only averaged 27 mpg for his career, and put up a career stat line of 9-3-4.

But you can certainly make the case that great o players who played no d are in the hall so why not the other way around. And then you make the case for Bruce Bowen, Bobby Jones, Alvin Robertson, Mark Eaton, and Ben Wallace.


Bobby Jones is in the Hall of Fame and Ben Wallace deserves to be. Coop was the 3rd most important Showtime Laker. Only Magic and Kareem were more important.


This is what I mean when I say we tend to glorify role players when we take a stroll down memory lane. Cooper over Worthy is hyperbolic. You can't make a clear cut argument for Coop over AC Green or Byron Scott, let alone James Worthy.


My impression is Coop is generally considered the best player among the trio of him, Byron and Greene.

However, they are all on a tier below Kareem, Magic and Worthy.

So Coop is probably regarded as the most important non-star, but Scott is very close to him and Greene a little further back.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:48 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
x75274 wrote:
I think Lord Byron deserves more credit. At the time in the late 80s Magic and Byron were considered the premier backcourt ahead of Isiah and Joe, Porter and Drexler, Jordan and Paxson, KJ and Hornacek etc.



If the Lakers were the best back courtroom, it was mostly because of Magic, not Byron. So that's a semantics game where you are trying to give Byron credit that really doesn't belong to him.

In the late 80s, here are the guys who made an all-star team in the west over Byron: Jordan, Drexler, Alvin Robertson, Fat Lever, Dale Ellis, Rolando Blackman, and Walter Davis.

There were probably only a couple of years in his career where Byron was even in the top third of shooting guards in the league.


That isnt true about the backcourt thing where its mostly due to Magic. If that were the case, Paxson-Jordan would be considered best and no one considered them the best backcourt. Back in that time period, Dumars and Scott were considered comparable peers. Amongst that all star list, there is no way I am choosing Dale Ellis and Walter Davis over Byron Scott. No way in hell with their lack of defense. Fat Lever couldn't shoot anywhere close to Byron's ability. I do like Blackman a lot and think he would fit well next to Magic and would be a Byron upgrade. Alvin Robertson better defender than Scott but offensively I take Byron so that is a wash.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:55 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
Runway8 wrote:
OCWA wrote:
activeverb wrote:
OCWA wrote:
Easily Cooper. Not even close. Coop should be in hall of fame. I'm serious.



Hard to put a guy in the Hall of Fame who never made a single all-star team, only averaged 27 mpg for his career, and put up a career stat line of 9-3-4.

But you can certainly make the case that great o players who played no d are in the hall so why not the other way around. And then you make the case for Bruce Bowen, Bobby Jones, Alvin Robertson, Mark Eaton, and Ben Wallace.


Bobby Jones is in the Hall of Fame and Ben Wallace deserves to be. Coop was the 3rd most important Showtime Laker. Only Magic and Kareem were more important.


This is what I mean when I say we tend to glorify role players when we take a stroll down memory lane. Cooper over Worthy is hyperbolic. You can't make a clear cut argument for Coop over AC Green or Byron Scott, let alone James Worthy.


My impression is Coop is generally considered the best player among the trio of him, Byron and Greene.

However, they are all on a tier below Kareem, Magic and Worthy.

So Coop is probably regarded as the most important non-star, but Scott is very close to him and Greene a little further back.


Also Jamaal, lets not forget him
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