Shaq vs. Kobe
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ericp6387
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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2020 11:35 am    Post subject:

skin wrote:
Joe Pesci wrote:
Best prime players I've ever witnessed live since 1985:

1. Magic
2. Jordan
3. Bird
4. LeBron
5. Olajuwon
6. Duncan
7. Shaq
8. Kobe
9. Durant
10. Thomas
11. Curry
12. Wade
13. Pippen
14. Garnett
15. Worthy


It's astounding how overrated Duncan is. He can't even make a layup (missed two layups in a row) to save his team from losing the NBA finals. He doesn't get as much criticism because he is quiet and stoic and doesn't have much of a personality. He is fundamentally sound, but not a top 15 all-time great. Put Pau Gasol on the same Spurs team and they win the same number of titles (maybe 1 more because Pau would not have missed those layups vs Miami).


Tim Duncan is a way better player than Pau Gasol. Sorry, but he is.
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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2020 11:39 am    Post subject:

GOODRICH25 wrote:
skin wrote:
Joe Pesci wrote:
Best prime players I've ever witnessed live since 1985:

1. Magic
2. Jordan
3. Bird
4. LeBron
5. Olajuwon
6. Duncan
7. Shaq
8. Kobe
9. Durant
10. Thomas
11. Curry
12. Wade
13. Pippen
14. Garnett
15. Worthy


It's astounding how overrated Duncan is. He can't even make a layup (missed two layups in a row) to save his team from losing the NBA finals. He doesn't get as much criticism because he is quiet and stoic and doesn't have much of a personality. He is fundamentally sound, but not a top 15 all-time great. Put Pau Gasol on the same Spurs team and they win the same number of titles (maybe 1 more because Pau would not have missed those layups vs Miami).


That list maybe overrates him a bit but you underrate him way too much

To each his own. Duncan, to me, was a force, the second best bigman I've ever seen next to Olajuwon.

In their prime, any player in my top 7 (Magic, Jordan, Bird, James, Olajuwon, Duncan, Shaq) instantly makes whatever team they're on a 50 win team.
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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2020 11:59 am    Post subject:

skin wrote:
Joe Pesci wrote:
Best prime players I've ever witnessed live since 1985:

1. Magic
2. Jordan
3. Bird
4. LeBron
5. Olajuwon
6. Duncan
7. Shaq
8. Kobe
9. Durant
10. Thomas
11. Curry
12. Wade
13. Pippen
14. Garnett
15. Worthy


It's astounding how overrated Duncan is. He can't even make a layup (missed two layups in a row) to save his team from losing the NBA finals. He doesn't get as much criticism because he is quiet and stoic and doesn't have much of a personality. He is fundamentally sound, but not a top 15 all-time great. Put Pau Gasol on the same Spurs team and they win the same number of titles (maybe 1 more because Pau would not have missed those layups vs Miami).



Kobe, Lebron and lots of other superstars have botched big moments. If you're going to focus on that, everyone sucks.

The guy is a complete bore, and he plays in the perfect system for him. I don't know if that has made him over-rated or under-rated.

From metrics to rings to awards, Duncan's actual accomplishments are hard to argue against.
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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2020 12:06 pm    Post subject:

skin wrote:
Joe Pesci wrote:
Best prime players I've ever witnessed live since 1985:

1. Magic
2. Jordan
3. Bird
4. LeBron
5. Olajuwon
6. Duncan
7. Shaq
8. Kobe
9. Durant
10. Thomas
11. Curry
12. Wade
13. Pippen
14. Garnett
15. Worthy


It's astounding how overrated Duncan is. He can't even make a layup (missed two layups in a row) to save his team from losing the NBA finals. He doesn't get as much criticism because he is quiet and stoic and doesn't have much of a personality. He is fundamentally sound, but not a top 15 all-time great. Put Pau Gasol on the same Spurs team and they win the same number of titles (maybe 1 more because Pau would not have missed those layups vs Miami).


Duncan was one of the best 3-4 players of the past 20 years. He didn’t get much criticism because his play was stellar and his team won.
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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2020 12:24 pm    Post subject:

Joe Pesci wrote:
GOODRICH25 wrote:
skin wrote:
Joe Pesci wrote:
Best prime players I've ever witnessed live since 1985:

1. Magic
2. Jordan
3. Bird
4. LeBron
5. Olajuwon
6. Duncan
7. Shaq
8. Kobe
9. Durant
10. Thomas
11. Curry
12. Wade
13. Pippen
14. Garnett
15. Worthy


It's astounding how overrated Duncan is. He can't even make a layup (missed two layups in a row) to save his team from losing the NBA finals. He doesn't get as much criticism because he is quiet and stoic and doesn't have much of a personality. He is fundamentally sound, but not a top 15 all-time great. Put Pau Gasol on the same Spurs team and they win the same number of titles (maybe 1 more because Pau would not have missed those layups vs Miami).


That list maybe overrates him a bit but you underrate him way too much

To each his own. Duncan, to me, was a force, the second best bigman I've ever seen next to Olajuwon.

In their prime, any player in my top 7 (Magic, Jordan, Bird, James, Olajuwon, Duncan, Shaq) instantly makes whatever team they're on a 50 win team.


I agree about Duncan when compared to other bigs, he was a constant all-NBA and all-defense for years to go along with 2 MVPs, made the playoffs every year and delivered 4 championships as the cornerstone of his franchise in his prime. Thats impressive no matter how good your team is, just that i would put Kobe over him. Shaq you could argue either way, Shaqs peak was better (but didnt last too long) and he was physically more dominant, while Duncan was more skilled. Garnett was also incredibly skilled, and a little more versatile as he could guard 4 positions and play outside on offense as well, but not necessarily better.

I would say that no player can make ANY team a 50 win team, you still need a certain level of talent and even then, competition also plays a part. But i see your point.
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ericp6387
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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2020 12:26 pm    Post subject:

Joe Pesci wrote:
GOODRICH25 wrote:
skin wrote:
Joe Pesci wrote:
Best prime players I've ever witnessed live since 1985:

1. Magic
2. Jordan
3. Bird
4. LeBron
5. Olajuwon
6. Duncan
7. Shaq
8. Kobe
9. Durant
10. Thomas
11. Curry
12. Wade
13. Pippen
14. Garnett
15. Worthy


It's astounding how overrated Duncan is. He can't even make a layup (missed two layups in a row) to save his team from losing the NBA finals. He doesn't get as much criticism because he is quiet and stoic and doesn't have much of a personality. He is fundamentally sound, but not a top 15 all-time great. Put Pau Gasol on the same Spurs team and they win the same number of titles (maybe 1 more because Pau would not have missed those layups vs Miami).


That list maybe overrates him a bit but you underrate him way too much

To each his own. Duncan, to me, was a force, the second best bigman I've ever seen next to Olajuwon.

In their prime, any player in my top 7 (Magic, Jordan, Bird, James, Olajuwon, Duncan, Shaq) instantly makes whatever team they're on a 50 win team.


Little shot at Kobe there. Hakeem was on a bunch of teams that won nothing between 88-92. Jordan too his first four or five yrs. Duncan walked into a great situation as did Magic and Larry. Shaq immediately had Penny and Horace Grant. Kobe had garbage after Shaq left. Surely you didn't expect him to carry that team to 50+ wins in a damn good western conference?
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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2020 2:40 pm    Post subject:

skin wrote:
It's astounding how overrated Duncan is. He can't even make a layup (missed two layups in a row) to save his team from losing the NBA finals. He doesn't get as much criticism because he is quiet and stoic and doesn't have much of a personality. He is fundamentally sound, but not a top 15 all-time great. Put Pau Gasol on the same Spurs team and they win the same number of titles (maybe 1 more because Pau would not have missed those layups vs Miami).


He was fist team All-NBA ten times, second team three times, and third team twice. Those second and third teams were all late in his career. 8 time first team all-defense, seven time second team. 3 time MVP, 3 time Finals MVP.

Prime Tim Duncan was putting up 27.6 points, 11.3 rebounds, 5 assists, and 4.3 blocks per game in the playoffs, and following that up with 24.7, 11.4, 5.3, and 3.3 blocks en route to a title during the Shaq-Kobe years.

Tim Duncan was legit. I love Pau, but come on get real. Pau was a two time 2nd team All-NBA, two time third team, never all-defensive. He wasn't in the same stratosphere as Duncan.
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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2020 3:05 pm    Post subject:

ericp6387 wrote:
Joe Pesci wrote:
GOODRICH25 wrote:
skin wrote:
Joe Pesci wrote:
Best prime players I've ever witnessed live since 1985:

1. Magic
2. Jordan
3. Bird
4. LeBron
5. Olajuwon
6. Duncan
7. Shaq
8. Kobe
9. Durant
10. Thomas
11. Curry
12. Wade
13. Pippen
14. Garnett
15. Worthy


It's astounding how overrated Duncan is. He can't even make a layup (missed two layups in a row) to save his team from losing the NBA finals. He doesn't get as much criticism because he is quiet and stoic and doesn't have much of a personality. He is fundamentally sound, but not a top 15 all-time great. Put Pau Gasol on the same Spurs team and they win the same number of titles (maybe 1 more because Pau would not have missed those layups vs Miami).


That list maybe overrates him a bit but you underrate him way too much

To each his own. Duncan, to me, was a force, the second best bigman I've ever seen next to Olajuwon.

In their prime, any player in my top 7 (Magic, Jordan, Bird, James, Olajuwon, Duncan, Shaq) instantly makes whatever team they're on a 50 win team.


Little shot at Kobe there. Hakeem was on a bunch of teams that won nothing between 88-92. Jordan too his first four or five yrs. Duncan walked into a great situation as did Magic and Larry. Shaq immediately had Penny and Horace Grant. Kobe had garbage after Shaq left. Surely you didn't expect him to carry that team to 50+ wins in a damn good western conference?

At Magic, Jordan's, Bird's, James, Olajuwon, Duncan's, and Shaq's peak of physiCal and mental maturity they make any team a contender. They were just that good.
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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2020 3:12 pm    Post subject:

J.C. Smith wrote:
skin wrote:
It's astounding how overrated Duncan is. He can't even make a layup (missed two layups in a row) to save his team from losing the NBA finals. He doesn't get as much criticism because he is quiet and stoic and doesn't have much of a personality. He is fundamentally sound, but not a top 15 all-time great. Put Pau Gasol on the same Spurs team and they win the same number of titles (maybe 1 more because Pau would not have missed those layups vs Miami).


He was fist team All-NBA ten times, second team three times, and third team twice. Those second and third teams were all late in his career. 8 time first team all-defense, seven time second team. 3 time MVP, 3 time Finals MVP.

Prime Tim Duncan was putting up 27.6 points, 11.3 rebounds, 5 assists, and 4.3 blocks per game in the playoffs, and following that up with 24.7, 11.4, 5.3, and 3.3 blocks en route to a title during the Shaq-Kobe years.

Tim Duncan was legit. I love Pau, but come on get real. Pau was a two time 2nd team All-NBA, two time third team, never all-defensive. He wasn't in the same stratosphere as Duncan.

That dude only saw Duncan in his twilight years. Funny thing is that other than maybe his last two years, Duncan, to me was the best center in the league.

My list is completely based on the premise of who I'd pick to win a ring in their prime for one year. Duncan, even as an older man was still really, really good. He'd have one another ring if Popovich hadn't took him out in the final possession which allowed the Heat to grab an offensive rebound and throw it out to Ray Allen for a series changing jumper.
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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2020 3:46 pm    Post subject:

The knock against Duncan is that he wasn't a truly dominant scorer like Shaq or, to a certain extent, Hakeem.

Duncan averaged at least 25 points only one season, and only twice in the playoffs.

Ultimately it was his rebounding and defense that put him over the top as far as being an all-time great, plus of course his five rings.
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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2020 5:09 pm    Post subject:

Duncan never averaged over 25 points because he was so unselfishly a team player, and he was coached by a guy who, in my opinion, uses player suppression techniques to dull his player's egos. Pop doesn't want to deal with "stars" unless they first submit.

Duncan, much like Magic, could've easily had multiple seasons averaging thirty, but it simply wasn't a priority for them.
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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2020 5:40 pm    Post subject:

skin wrote:
Joe Pesci wrote:
Best prime players I've ever witnessed live since 1985:

1. Magic
2. Jordan
3. Bird
4. LeBron
5. Olajuwon
6. Duncan
7. Shaq
8. Kobe
9. Durant
10. Thomas
11. Curry
12. Wade
13. Pippen
14. Garnett
15. Worthy


It's astounding how overrated Duncan is. He can't even make a layup (missed two layups in a row) to save his team from losing the NBA finals. He doesn't get as much criticism because he is quiet and stoic and doesn't have much of a personality. He is fundamentally sound, but not a top 15 all-time great. Put Pau Gasol on the same Spurs team and they win the same number of titles (maybe 1 more because Pau would not have missed those layups vs Miami).


Last I checked, Kobe, Shaq and Pau lost titles too. What's astounding, is how terrible this take is. Pau on the Spurs win ZERO titles. As the alpha without Duncan on those Spurs, he wins zero, nada. How are you winning titles as the main big man when anybody with a little bit of muscle can root you out of the box? What did he do in Memphis when he had his own team? Around 18-10, that's what he did. What did he do with Kobe? Around 18-10. He is what he is, a great Robin. Zero indications in his stats that he would raise his numbers if given more burden. He is consistently who he is, whether he's playing with a Mike Miller or a Kobe Bryant.

With TD and those great Spurs teams, it's pick your poison. He plays the right way, and his stats are not insane because he'll give up the ball when doubled. If Pau was on the Spurs, the defense would focus on the Parkers and the Manus, and they'll let Pau beat them because they'll know he can't.
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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2020 6:34 pm    Post subject:

Joe Pesci wrote:
Duncan never averaged over 25 points because he was so unselfishly a team player, and he was coached by a guy who, in my opinion, uses player suppression techniques to dull his player's egos. Pop doesn't want to deal with "stars" unless they first submit.

Duncan, much like Magic, could've easily had multiple seasons averaging thirty, but it simply wasn't a priority for them.

It's really hard to judge players based on "coulda, woulda, shoulda" scenarios like this. If Duncan averaged 30 ppg multiple seasons, would he have been the same force defensively? Would it have messed up the offensive chemistry of that team? Would Tony Parker get mad at Duncan for taking touches away from him and maybe demand a trade?

How would Magic average 30 ppg, especially the first half of his career? How would Kareem, Worthy, Nixon, Wilkes and Scott feel about that? Would they have still won 5 rings if Magic averaged 30 ppg? I'm sure his assists would've drastically gone down if he did that, and maybe it would've been real bad for that team.

Kobe could've averaged more points if he really were selfish and straight-up ignored Shaq, but that also might've cost us a ring or two.
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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2020 6:57 pm    Post subject:

slavavov wrote:
Joe Pesci wrote:
Duncan never averaged over 25 points because he was so unselfishly a team player, and he was coached by a guy who, in my opinion, uses player suppression techniques to dull his player's egos. Pop doesn't want to deal with "stars" unless they first submit.

Duncan, much like Magic, could've easily had multiple seasons averaging thirty, but it simply wasn't a priority for them.

It's really hard to judge players based on "coulda, woulda, shoulda" scenarios like this. If Duncan averaged 30 ppg multiple seasons, would he have been the same force defensively? Would it have messed up the offensive chemistry of that team? Would Tony Parker get mad at Duncan for taking touches away from him and maybe demand a trade?

How would Magic average 30 ppg, especially the first half of his career? How would Kareem, Worthy, Nixon, Wilkes and Scott feel about that? Would they have still won 5 rings if Magic averaged 30 ppg? I'm sure his assists would've drastically gone down if he did that, and maybe it would've been real bad for that team.

Kobe could've averaged more points if he really were selfish and straight-up ignored Shaq, but that also might've cost us a ring or two.

I wholeheartedly agree. I was responding to a post that sought to diminish Duncan's impact by sharing that he never averaged 25 a game. I agree with you. What made Magic and Duncan so good was that they weren't overy concerned with their box's core stats.
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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2020 7:48 pm    Post subject:

Since you didn't specify what era that 1 year was in, I'll go with..

Kobe. His game would translate to close to 100% of the value he played at in any era. Kobe played in the dead-ball era, big man, 77-68 final type games. The worst era to be a guard, and still managed to play at a level that few ever have.

Shaq played in the perfect era for his game. His game doesn't translate dollar for dollar to today's era. Although he'd still be dominant no doubt, I'm not sure he extracts 100% of the value he showed in the dead-ball era. In today's era, Shaq's game is somewhatt devalued.


So, for those reasons, I go Kobe.
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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2020 8:56 pm    Post subject:

Joe Pesci wrote:
ericp6387 wrote:
Joe Pesci wrote:
GOODRICH25 wrote:
skin wrote:
Joe Pesci wrote:
Best prime players I've ever witnessed live since 1985:

1. Magic
2. Jordan
3. Bird
4. LeBron
5. Olajuwon
6. Duncan
7. Shaq
8. Kobe
9. Durant
10. Thomas
11. Curry
12. Wade
13. Pippen
14. Garnett
15. Worthy


It's astounding how overrated Duncan is. He can't even make a layup (missed two layups in a row) to save his team from losing the NBA finals. He doesn't get as much criticism because he is quiet and stoic and doesn't have much of a personality. He is fundamentally sound, but not a top 15 all-time great. Put Pau Gasol on the same Spurs team and they win the same number of titles (maybe 1 more because Pau would not have missed those layups vs Miami).


That list maybe overrates him a bit but you underrate him way too much

To each his own. Duncan, to me, was a force, the second best bigman I've ever seen next to Olajuwon.

In their prime, any player in my top 7 (Magic, Jordan, Bird, James, Olajuwon, Duncan, Shaq) instantly makes whatever team they're on a 50 win team.


Little shot at Kobe there. Hakeem was on a bunch of teams that won nothing between 88-92. Jordan too his first four or five yrs. Duncan walked into a great situation as did Magic and Larry. Shaq immediately had Penny and Horace Grant. Kobe had garbage after Shaq left. Surely you didn't expect him to carry that team to 50+ wins in a damn good western conference?

At Magic, Jordan's, Bird's, James, Olajuwon, Duncan's, and Shaq's peak of physiCal and mental maturity they make any team a contender. They were just that good.


Leaving out Kobe is a shot at him without question, but you are entitled to your opinion.
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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2020 9:01 pm    Post subject:

Joe Pesci wrote:
slavavov wrote:
Joe Pesci wrote:
Duncan never averaged over 25 points because he was so unselfishly a team player, and he was coached by a guy who, in my opinion, uses player suppression techniques to dull his player's egos. Pop doesn't want to deal with "stars" unless they first submit.

Duncan, much like Magic, could've easily had multiple seasons averaging thirty, but it simply wasn't a priority for them.

It's really hard to judge players based on "coulda, woulda, shoulda" scenarios like this. If Duncan averaged 30 ppg multiple seasons, would he have been the same force defensively? Would it have messed up the offensive chemistry of that team? Would Tony Parker get mad at Duncan for taking touches away from him and maybe demand a trade?

How would Magic average 30 ppg, especially the first half of his career? How would Kareem, Worthy, Nixon, Wilkes and Scott feel about that? Would they have still won 5 rings if Magic averaged 30 ppg? I'm sure his assists would've drastically gone down if he did that, and maybe it would've been real bad for that team.

Kobe could've averaged more points if he really were selfish and straight-up ignored Shaq, but that also might've cost us a ring or two.

I wholeheartedly agree. I was responding to a post that sought to diminish Duncan's impact by sharing that he never averaged 25 a game. I agree with you. What made Magic and Duncan so good was that they weren't overy concerned with their box's core stats.


You overrate Magic. I love him too, but he walked right into Kareem the best player in the league and could not defend anybody of quality. Bird too was a horrible defender. Duncan had Robinson and Pop. Hakeem was bounced in 1st rd every year between 88-92. Five long years. Shaq could not win without a Kobe or a Wade. Lebron and MJ? The two best players ever. To put Magic over both of them is a bit ridiculous.
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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2020 9:18 pm    Post subject:

ericp6387 wrote:
I love him too, but he walked right into Kareem the best player in the league and could not defend anybody of quality. Bird too was a horrible defender.


Magic wasn't a great one on one defender, he wasn't a terrible defender though. His team defense wasn't bad, he led the league in steals a couple of times. He wasn't a good defender, but he wasn't as bad as he often gets credit for around here. Bird made was second team all-defense three times.
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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2020 9:32 pm    Post subject:

J.C. Smith wrote:
ericp6387 wrote:
I love him too, but he walked right into Kareem the best player in the league and could not defend anybody of quality. Bird too was a horrible defender.


Magic wasn't a great one on one defender, he wasn't a terrible defender though. His team defense wasn't bad, he led the league in steals a couple of times. He wasn't a good defender, but he wasn't as bad as he often gets credit for around here. Bird made was second team all-defense three times.


Bird and Magic were slow footed guys. Not great athletes. I remember McHale had to guard Worthy because Bird was unable to do it. Bird got to instead guard Rambis or AC Green. Simply put: Magic and Bird lacked the foot speed and athleticism to guard athletic, quality scorers.
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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2020 9:48 pm    Post subject:

ericp6387 wrote:
Joe Pesci wrote:
slavavov wrote:
Joe Pesci wrote:
Duncan never averaged over 25 points because he was so unselfishly a team player, and he was coached by a guy who, in my opinion, uses player suppression techniques to dull his player's egos. Pop doesn't want to deal with "stars" unless they first submit.

Duncan, much like Magic, could've easily had multiple seasons averaging thirty, but it simply wasn't a priority for them.

It's really hard to judge players based on "coulda, woulda, shoulda" scenarios like this. If Duncan averaged 30 ppg multiple seasons, would he have been the same force defensively? Would it have messed up the offensive chemistry of that team? Would Tony Parker get mad at Duncan for taking touches away from him and maybe demand a trade?

How would Magic average 30 ppg, especially the first half of his career? How would Kareem, Worthy, Nixon, Wilkes and Scott feel about that? Would they have still won 5 rings if Magic averaged 30 ppg? I'm sure his assists would've drastically gone down if he did that, and maybe it would've been real bad for that team.

Kobe could've averaged more points if he really were selfish and straight-up ignored Shaq, but that also might've cost us a ring or two.

I wholeheartedly agree. I was responding to a post that sought to diminish Duncan's impact by sharing that he never averaged 25 a game. I agree with you. What made Magic and Duncan so good was that they weren't overy concerned with their box's core stats.


You overrate Magic. I love him too, but he walked right into Kareem the best player in the league and could not defend anybody of quality. Bird too was a horrible defender. Duncan had Robinson and Pop. Hakeem was bounced in 1st rd every year between 88-92. Five long years. Shaq could not win without a Kobe or a Wade. Lebron and MJ? The two best players ever. To put Magic over both of them is a bit ridiculous.

All valid points, but we can criticize Jordan and James too.

Jordan was going nowhere before Phil Jackson, Texas Winters, and the vision of Jerry Krause. He had to be prodded to be a team player. Phil Jackson had to perform pseudo mind control on him for him to play within a team dynamic. Jordan didn't make Pippen better --- Phil Jackson, Texas Winter, and The Triangle Offense made Pippen better. How many rings does Jordan win without Phil Jackson?

As far as James, the exact,same criticism you levy against Magic you can levy against James. He's had examplary teammates the years he's won championships. The years he didn't win rings he played in an historically weak conference.

I get the feeling you never watched Magic Johnson live. James has a lot more to prove to be on the same level as Magic and Bird. His longevity and another title may push him past Bird, but he'll have to win two more rings to pass Magic.

Don't get sucked into the media's Jordan v. James narrative. James has the stats, for sure, but he is a stat watcher. In a very similar vain as Westbrook, he is supremely conciously of his stat line. If you just go by counting stats, James is number two, but if you know how to look behind just numbers, to see the nuance of leadership, team play, upliftment, winning at all cost, sacrifice, and empowering teammates, James comes up woefully short when measured up against Magic and Bird. James' inclusion in the best ever debate is stat driven, corporate driven, and social justice warrior narrative driven. Magic and Bird (and Jordan) are in the discussion because of accomplishments on the court.

Like I said, James can pass Bird with another ring, but his overall solemn record in the Finals hurts his second best ever title. It's precisely because of this that him and Nike are disengeniusly trying to make him out to be the next Ali and a counterbalance to Jordan's silence on social issues. The truth is that he's had an easy road to the Finals for a decade, but has mostly come up short when it's counted.
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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 1:43 am    Post subject:

Joe Pesci wrote:
ericp6387 wrote:
Joe Pesci wrote:
slavavov wrote:
Joe Pesci wrote:
Duncan never averaged over 25 points because he was so unselfishly a team player, and he was coached by a guy who, in my opinion, uses player suppression techniques to dull his player's egos. Pop doesn't want to deal with "stars" unless they first submit.

Duncan, much like Magic, could've easily had multiple seasons averaging thirty, but it simply wasn't a priority for them.

It's really hard to judge players based on "coulda, woulda, shoulda" scenarios like this. If Duncan averaged 30 ppg multiple seasons, would he have been the same force defensively? Would it have messed up the offensive chemistry of that team? Would Tony Parker get mad at Duncan for taking touches away from him and maybe demand a trade?

How would Magic average 30 ppg, especially the first half of his career? How would Kareem, Worthy, Nixon, Wilkes and Scott feel about that? Would they have still won 5 rings if Magic averaged 30 ppg? I'm sure his assists would've drastically gone down if he did that, and maybe it would've been real bad for that team.

Kobe could've averaged more points if he really were selfish and straight-up ignored Shaq, but that also might've cost us a ring or two.

I wholeheartedly agree. I was responding to a post that sought to diminish Duncan's impact by sharing that he never averaged 25 a game. I agree with you. What made Magic and Duncan so good was that they weren't overy concerned with their box's core stats.


You overrate Magic. I love him too, but he walked right into Kareem the best player in the league and could not defend anybody of quality. Bird too was a horrible defender. Duncan had Robinson and Pop. Hakeem was bounced in 1st rd every year between 88-92. Five long years. Shaq could not win without a Kobe or a Wade. Lebron and MJ? The two best players ever. To put Magic over both of them is a bit ridiculous.

All valid points, but we can criticize Jordan and James too.

Jordan was going nowhere before Phil Jackson, Texas Winters, and the vision of Jerry Krause. He had to be prodded to be a team player. Phil Jackson had to perform pseudo mind control on him for him to play within a team dynamic. Jordan didn't make Pippen better --- Phil Jackson, Texas Winter, and The Triangle Offense made Pippen better. How many rings does Jordan win without Phil Jackson?

As far as James, the exact,same criticism you levy against Magic you can levy against James. He's had examplary teammates the years he's won championships. The years he didn't win rings he played in an historically weak conference.

I get the feeling you never watched Magic Johnson live. James has a lot more to prove to be on the same level as Magic and Bird. His longevity and another title may push him past Bird, but he'll have to win two more rings to pass Magic.

Don't get sucked into the media's Jordan v. James narrative. James has the stats, for sure, but he is a stat watcher. In a very similar vain as Westbrook, he is supremely conciously of his stat line. If you just go by counting stats, James is number two, but if you know how to look behind just numbers, to see the nuance of leadership, team play, upliftment, winning at all cost, sacrifice, and empowering teammates, James comes up woefully short when measured up against Magic and Bird. James' inclusion in the best ever debate is stat driven, corporate driven, and social justice warrior narrative driven. Magic and Bird (and Jordan) are in the discussion because of accomplishments on the court.

Like I said, James can pass Bird with another ring, but his overall solemn record in the Finals hurts his second best ever title. It's precisely because of this that him and Nike are disengeniusly trying to make him out to be the next Ali and a counterbalance to Jordan's silence on social issues. The truth is that he's had an easy road to the Finals for a decade, but has mostly come up short when it's counted.

I've never understood why rings and one's record in the NBA Finals matters in these debates, but for LeBron it doesn't. His fanboys sound brainwashed, and they parrot media narratives such as "other than 2011, none of his Finals losses were his fault" and "other than 2011, LeBron has never underperformed or had a bad game."
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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 4:01 am    Post subject:

slavavov wrote:
Joe Pesci wrote:
ericp6387 wrote:
Joe Pesci wrote:
slavavov wrote:
Joe Pesci wrote:
Duncan never averaged over 25 points because he was so unselfishly a team player, and he was coached by a guy who, in my opinion, uses player suppression techniques to dull his player's egos. Pop doesn't want to deal with "stars" unless they first submit.

Duncan, much like Magic, could've easily had multiple seasons averaging thirty, but it simply wasn't a priority for them.

It's really hard to judge players based on "coulda, woulda, shoulda" scenarios like this. If Duncan averaged 30 ppg multiple seasons, would he have been the same force defensively? Would it have messed up the offensive chemistry of that team? Would Tony Parker get mad at Duncan for taking touches away from him and maybe demand a trade?

How would Magic average 30 ppg, especially the first half of his career? How would Kareem, Worthy, Nixon, Wilkes and Scott feel about that? Would they have still won 5 rings if Magic averaged 30 ppg? I'm sure his assists would've drastically gone down if he did that, and maybe it would've been real bad for that team.

Kobe could've averaged more points if he really were selfish and straight-up ignored Shaq, but that also might've cost us a ring or two.

I wholeheartedly agree. I was responding to a post that sought to diminish Duncan's impact by sharing that he never averaged 25 a game. I agree with you. What made Magic and Duncan so good was that they weren't overy concerned with their box's core stats.


You overrate Magic. I love him too, but he walked right into Kareem the best player in the league and could not defend anybody of quality. Bird too was a horrible defender. Duncan had Robinson and Pop. Hakeem was bounced in 1st rd every year between 88-92. Five long years. Shaq could not win without a Kobe or a Wade. Lebron and MJ? The two best players ever. To put Magic over both of them is a bit ridiculous.

All valid points, but we can criticize Jordan and James too.

Jordan was going nowhere before Phil Jackson, Texas Winters, and the vision of Jerry Krause. He had to be prodded to be a team player. Phil Jackson had to perform pseudo mind control on him for him to play within a team dynamic. Jordan didn't make Pippen better --- Phil Jackson, Texas Winter, and The Triangle Offense made Pippen better. How many rings does Jordan win without Phil Jackson?

As far as James, the exact,same criticism you levy against Magic you can levy against James. He's had examplary teammates the years he's won championships. The years he didn't win rings he played in an historically weak conference.

I get the feeling you never watched Magic Johnson live. James has a lot more to prove to be on the same level as Magic and Bird. His longevity and another title may push him past Bird, but he'll have to win two more rings to pass Magic.

Don't get sucked into the media's Jordan v. James narrative. James has the stats, for sure, but he is a stat watcher. In a very similar vain as Westbrook, he is supremely conciously of his stat line. If you just go by counting stats, James is number two, but if you know how to look behind just numbers, to see the nuance of leadership, team play, upliftment, winning at all cost, sacrifice, and empowering teammates, James comes up woefully short when measured up against Magic and Bird. James' inclusion in the best ever debate is stat driven, corporate driven, and social justice warrior narrative driven. Magic and Bird (and Jordan) are in the discussion because of accomplishments on the court.

Like I said, James can pass Bird with another ring, but his overall solemn record in the Finals hurts his second best ever title. It's precisely because of this that him and Nike are disengeniusly trying to make him out to be the next Ali and a counterbalance to Jordan's silence on social issues. The truth is that he's had an easy road to the Finals for a decade, but has mostly come up short when it's counted.

I've never understood why rings and one's record in the NBA Finals matters in these debates, but for LeBron it doesn't. His fanboys sound brainwashed, and they parrot media narratives such as "other than 2011, none of his Finals losses were his fault" and "other than 2011, LeBron has never underperformed or had a bad game."


Which both arent even true. To me Magic is definitely ahead, the moment he stepped into the league he propelled us to a decade of winning, 8 trips to the finals and 5 rings, then another trip to the finals without Kareem only to lose to the Bulls. People should not forget we didnt win with Kareem for 4 years before Magic, didnt even make the finals. The 1st year we get Magic we went all the way. 2nd only to Jordan in my book.
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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 7:14 am    Post subject:

Joe Pesci wrote:
ericp6387 wrote:
Joe Pesci wrote:
slavavov wrote:
Joe Pesci wrote:
Duncan never averaged over 25 points because he was so unselfishly a team player, and he was coached by a guy who, in my opinion, uses player suppression techniques to dull his player's egos. Pop doesn't want to deal with "stars" unless they first submit.

Duncan, much like Magic, could've easily had multiple seasons averaging thirty, but it simply wasn't a priority for them.

It's really hard to judge players based on "coulda, woulda, shoulda" scenarios like this. If Duncan averaged 30 ppg multiple seasons, would he have been the same force defensively? Would it have messed up the offensive chemistry of that team? Would Tony Parker get mad at Duncan for taking touches away from him and maybe demand a trade?

How would Magic average 30 ppg, especially the first half of his career? How would Kareem, Worthy, Nixon, Wilkes and Scott feel about that? Would they have still won 5 rings if Magic averaged 30 ppg? I'm sure his assists would've drastically gone down if he did that, and maybe it would've been real bad for that team.

Kobe could've averaged more points if he really were selfish and straight-up ignored Shaq, but that also might've cost us a ring or two.

I wholeheartedly agree. I was responding to a post that sought to diminish Duncan's impact by sharing that he never averaged 25 a game. I agree with you. What made Magic and Duncan so good was that they weren't overy concerned with their box's core stats.


You overrate Magic. I love him too, but he walked right into Kareem the best player in the league and could not defend anybody of quality. Bird too was a horrible defender. Duncan had Robinson and Pop. Hakeem was bounced in 1st rd every year between 88-92. Five long years. Shaq could not win without a Kobe or a Wade. Lebron and MJ? The two best players ever. To put Magic over both of them is a bit ridiculous.

All valid points, but we can criticize Jordan and James too.

Jordan was going nowhere before Phil Jackson, Texas Winters, and the vision of Jerry Krause. He had to be prodded to be a team player. Phil Jackson had to perform pseudo mind control on him for him to play within a team dynamic. Jordan didn't make Pippen better --- Phil Jackson, Texas Winter, and The Triangle Offense made Pippen better. How many rings does Jordan win without Phil Jackson?

As far as James, the exact,same criticism you levy against Magic you can levy against James. He's had examplary teammates the years he's won championships. The years he didn't win rings he played in an historically weak conference.

I get the feeling you never watched Magic Johnson live. James has a lot more to prove to be on the same level as Magic and Bird. His longevity and another title may push him past Bird, but he'll have to win two more rings to pass Magic.

Don't get sucked into the media's Jordan v. James narrative. James has the stats, for sure, but he is a stat watcher. In a very similar vain as Westbrook, he is supremely conciously of his stat line. If you just go by counting stats, James is number two, but if you know how to look behind just numbers, to see the nuance of leadership, team play, upliftment, winning at all cost, sacrifice, and empowering teammates, James comes up woefully short when measured up against Magic and Bird. James' inclusion in the best ever debate is stat driven, corporate driven, and social justice warrior narrative driven. Magic and Bird (and Jordan) are in the discussion because of accomplishments on the court.

Like I said, James can pass Bird with another ring, but his overall solemn record in the Finals hurts his second best ever title. It's precisely because of this that him and Nike are disengeniusly trying to make him out to be the next Ali and a counterbalance to Jordan's silence on social issues. The truth is that he's had an easy road to the Finals for a decade, but has mostly come up short when it's counted.


I am 45 yrs old and was only 5 when Magic came into the league, 16 when he retired the first time. I am from Houston and saw Magic play numerous times in person during my childhood. He was my first sports hero. And, if you look at my list, I have Magic 4th overall since 85. However, Magic walked right into the best player in the league. Kareem was the go to guy on the Lakers until 86. He was the guy we went to when we needed that key hoop. Magic became amazing in 87 when Riley handed him the keys once Cap got older. Magic made the most of it after that. However, James and MJ are just at a different level athletically than Magic. They could do more things. I grant you that MJ couldn't win a ring until Phil and Scottie joined him at that high level. But look at what he was going up against. Those Celts and Pistons teams of the 80s were amazing and MJ, despite how amazing he was, could not do it alone despite his great efforts. As for Lebron, getting to the Finals in 07 with that garbage Cavs team was an amazing feat for him. I will grant you that in the Finals, Lebron has not played his best. He flopped against Dallas and didn't play well in 14 vs SA. However, he went up against some stiff competition in those Finals. Very stiff. And he always came back with a vengeance. And this year he was amazing and I felt we were on our way to a ring until the virus came. This at 35 yrs old after 16 yrs in the league. Not bad. So, while MJ and Lebron are not flawless/perfect players, they did not require the same amount of talent around them in my view that Magic did. Magic made those players better no doubt but he needed great players around him to get there. I view MJ and Lebron as one man wrecking crews who just have so much more athleticism and scoring talent than Magic and certainly are way better defenders. For that reason, Magic comes up short against those two guys by a fairly clear margin.
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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 9:23 am    Post subject:

ericp6387 wrote:
Joe Pesci wrote:
ericp6387 wrote:
Joe Pesci wrote:
slavavov wrote:
Joe Pesci wrote:
Duncan never averaged over 25 points because he was so unselfishly a team player, and he was coached by a guy who, in my opinion, uses player suppression techniques to dull his player's egos. Pop doesn't want to deal with "stars" unless they first submit.

Duncan, much like Magic, could've easily had multiple seasons averaging thirty, but it simply wasn't a priority for them.

It's really hard to judge players based on "coulda, woulda, shoulda" scenarios like this. If Duncan averaged 30 ppg multiple seasons, would he have been the same force defensively? Would it have messed up the offensive chemistry of that team? Would Tony Parker get mad at Duncan for taking touches away from him and maybe demand a trade?

How would Magic average 30 ppg, especially the first half of his career? How would Kareem, Worthy, Nixon, Wilkes and Scott feel about that? Would they have still won 5 rings if Magic averaged 30 ppg? I'm sure his assists would've drastically gone down if he did that, and maybe it would've been real bad for that team.

Kobe could've averaged more points if he really were selfish and straight-up ignored Shaq, but that also might've cost us a ring or two.

I wholeheartedly agree. I was responding to a post that sought to diminish Duncan's impact by sharing that he never averaged 25 a game. I agree with you. What made Magic and Duncan so good was that they weren't overy concerned with their box's core stats.


You overrate Magic. I love him too, but he walked right into Kareem the best player in the league and could not defend anybody of quality. Bird too was a horrible defender. Duncan had Robinson and Pop. Hakeem was bounced in 1st rd every year between 88-92. Five long years. Shaq could not win without a Kobe or a Wade. Lebron and MJ? The two best players ever. To put Magic over both of them is a bit ridiculous.

All valid points, but we can criticize Jordan and James too.

Jordan was going nowhere before Phil Jackson, Texas Winters, and the vision of Jerry Krause. He had to be prodded to be a team player. Phil Jackson had to perform pseudo mind control on him for him to play within a team dynamic. Jordan didn't make Pippen better --- Phil Jackson, Texas Winter, and The Triangle Offense made Pippen better. How many rings does Jordan win without Phil Jackson?

As far as James, the exact,same criticism you levy against Magic you can levy against James. He's had examplary teammates the years he's won championships. The years he didn't win rings he played in an historically weak conference.

I get the feeling you never watched Magic Johnson live. James has a lot more to prove to be on the same level as Magic and Bird. His longevity and another title may push him past Bird, but he'll have to win two more rings to pass Magic.

Don't get sucked into the media's Jordan v. James narrative. James has the stats, for sure, but he is a stat watcher. In a very similar vain as Westbrook, he is supremely conciously of his stat line. If you just go by counting stats, James is number two, but if you know how to look behind just numbers, to see the nuance of leadership, team play, upliftment, winning at all cost, sacrifice, and empowering teammates, James comes up woefully short when measured up against Magic and Bird. James' inclusion in the best ever debate is stat driven, corporate driven, and social justice warrior narrative driven. Magic and Bird (and Jordan) are in the discussion because of accomplishments on the court.

Like I said, James can pass Bird with another ring, but his overall solemn record in the Finals hurts his second best ever title. It's precisely because of this that him and Nike are disengeniusly trying to make him out to be the next Ali and a counterbalance to Jordan's silence on social issues. The truth is that he's had an easy road to the Finals for a decade, but has mostly come up short when it's counted.


I am 45 yrs old and was only 5 when Magic came into the league, 16 when he retired the first time. I am from Houston and saw Magic play numerous times in person during my childhood. He was my first sports hero. And, if you look at my list, I have Magic 4th overall since 85. However, Magic walked right into the best player in the league. Kareem was the go to guy on the Lakers until 86. He was the guy we went to when we needed that key hoop. Magic became amazing in 87 when Riley handed him the keys once Cap got older. Magic made the most of it after that. However, James and MJ are just at a different level athletically than Magic. They could do more things. I grant you that MJ couldn't win a ring until Phil and Scottie joined him at that high level. But look at what he was going up against. Those Celts and Pistons teams of the 80s were amazing and MJ, despite how amazing he was, could not do it alone despite his great efforts. As for Lebron, getting to the Finals in 07 with that garbage Cavs team was an amazing feat for him. I will grant you that in the Finals, Lebron has not played his best. He flopped against Dallas and didn't play well in 14 vs SA. However, he went up against some stiff competition in those Finals. Very stiff. And he always came back with a vengeance. And this year he was amazing and I felt we were on our way to a ring until the virus came. This at 35 yrs old after 16 yrs in the league. Not bad. So, while MJ and Lebron are not flawless/perfect players, they did not require the same amount of talent around them in my view that Magic did. Magic made those players better no doubt but he needed great players around him to get there. I view MJ and Lebron as one man wrecking crews who just have so much more athleticism and scoring talent than Magic and certainly are way better defenders. For that reason, Magic comes up short against those two guys by a fairly clear margin.

James didn't need great players around him? Isn't that the reason he left Cleveland the first time, to play with Hall of fame level talent?

And are we just going to ignore Magic as a rookie winning a closeout game in The Finals without Kareem. You can't punish Magic for having and submitting to Kareem, then ignore James forcing his way to play with a prime Wade to finally win a championship (only to find out Janes can only play effectively as the focal point thus forcing Wade to submit to him).
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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 9:52 am    Post subject:

Joe Pesci wrote:

And are we just going to ignore Magic as a rookie winning a closeout game in The Finals without Kareem. You can't punish Magic for having and submitting to Kareem, then ignore James forcing his way to play with a prime Wade to finally win a championship (only to find out Janes can only play effectively as the focal point thus forcing Wade to submit to him).



Magic had amazing talent around him, but he also played against super teams in an era of super teams. How does that compare against Lebron, MJ, Kobe, Bird etc. I don't really know. Seems like they all drew good hands team-mate-wise, which is one reason they're on the GOAT short list.

One of the most contentious topics is rating the talent that GOAT level guys had around them, as well as the talent they competed against.

It's extremely hard to do that, and I've never seen anyone do it in a compelling way. It usually just because an excuse for people to arbitrarily declare a player they like did more with less, or a player they don't like did less with more.
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