ESPN Ranks Their All-time 74 Greatest Players
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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2020 4:43 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
danzag wrote:
Duncan ahead of Kobe lol



My sense is that when you look at everything Kobe, Duncan and Shaq had equivalent careers. Like this survey, I tend to rank them as a block, and I don't get too worked up how the three of them are ranked within that block.

In terms of tangible accomplishments, you can make a case for any of them above the other, depending on what criteria you decide is important.

I think this mostly comes down to the style of play people like.

Duncan's problem is that he never averaged nearly as many points a game as Kobe or Shaq. To me, that knocks him down the list a bit and clearly puts him behind Kobe, Shaq, Magic, Bird, etc.
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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2020 5:16 pm    Post subject:

slavavov wrote:
activeverb wrote:
danzag wrote:
Duncan ahead of Kobe lol



My sense is that when you look at everything Kobe, Duncan and Shaq had equivalent careers. Like this survey, I tend to rank them as a block, and I don't get too worked up how the three of them are ranked within that block.

In terms of tangible accomplishments, you can make a case for any of them above the other, depending on what criteria you decide is important.

I think this mostly comes down to the style of play people like.

Duncan's problem is that he never averaged nearly as many points a game as Kobe or Shaq. To me, that knocks him down the list a bit and clearly puts him behind Kobe, Shaq, Magic, Bird, etc.


Duncan will always be listed lower by anyone who prioritizes scoring average, style of play, or anyting flashy.

The case for him is based on defense, consistency, and being an anchor on both ends of the court.

He falls into the group with players like Bill Walton, Bill Russell, and other guys whose greatness wasn't really reflected in the box score
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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2020 9:29 pm    Post subject:

Robster8989 wrote:
And Dream was magnificent, but his 2 titles only came with MJ in minor league baseball.


Dream's team swept the team that beat Jordan's team in 95. I know there are myths out there that he didn't play, was rusty, etc. He played, he lost, they added a 3rd HOF player and he won again.
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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2020 12:25 am    Post subject:

The list should be:

1. MJ
2. LeBron
3. Kareem
4. Wilt
5. Kobe
6. Magic
7. Russell
8. Duncan
9. Bird

Two for sure:

Kobe > Duncan:
While this is a little tough, scoring does play a huge role. Duncan averaged less than 20 points for the majority of his career, while Kobe led the league in scoring twice, and had three 30+ point seasons when the league wasn't even close to the fast paced offense we see today. Kobe has identical number of rings as Duncan but one more Finals appearance. If people can discredit Kobe's first three because of Shaq, someone's also got to point out Duncan winning in 2014 as well when both Tony Parker and Kawhi played an even more important role for winning the 2014 ring. You also have to compare Kobe's production in the playoffs versus Duncan's production in the playoffs. Kobe's is superior. Also in head to head matches in the playoffs, Kobe conquered, beating Duncan in 2001, 2002, 2004, and 2008. Duncan only beat him in 1999 and 2003. Finally, sure Duncan made the playoffs each year of his career, but Kobe single handedly brought a Lakers team who (besides Lamar) was literally trash to two straight playoff appearances (2006 and 2007), almost beating the D'antoni's Suns. Duncan's teams were always stacked.

Kobe > Bird:
Only thing Bird was extremely superior over Kobe was shooting percentage and obviously rebounding. Kobe was superior in scoring, defense, and longevity of career as well. They both have two finals mvp's, but Kobe has more championships, finals appearances, and won with two different "teams" while Bird won his 3 with an almost similar supporting cast. Sure Bird has two more MVP's, but Kobe has more All-Star appearances, All-NBA teams, and Defensive All-NBA teams.

A little bit tougher:

Kobe > Magic
Kobe is better at defense, scoring, outside shooting, and longevity of career. However, obviously Magic was the best facilitator the league has ever seen and can rebound well as a point guard. A little tough, but I'd give a slight edge to Kobe, but not by much.

Kobe > Russell
Two completely different eras so the only reason I'm making the case here is because I'm biased.
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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2020 9:05 am    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:
Robster8989 wrote:
And Dream was magnificent, but his 2 titles only came with MJ in minor league baseball.


Dream's team swept the team that beat Jordan's team in 95. I know there are myths out there that he didn't play, was rusty, etc. He played, he lost, they added a 3rd HOF player and he won again.



We know the facts.

The Bulls won three rings. MJ retired for baseball. The Rockets won a ring while he was gone. MJ came back with 18 games left the following season. The Bulls lost in the second round. The Rockets won a ring. The Bulls won the next three rings.

True, many people don't realize MJ was back for part of the second season. But then then people argue whether the second season is an asterisks season.

Yes, MJ was back, but did the Bulls have time to adjust to him and be playing at an optimal level. Does that truly represent “beating the Bulls”? Or is it just lucky timing?

Personally, I think it's not a big deal either way. All you can do is play the team that shows up. Everything else is woulda coulda shoulda and interpretation.
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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2020 11:22 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
slavavov wrote:
activeverb wrote:
danzag wrote:
Duncan ahead of Kobe lol



My sense is that when you look at everything Kobe, Duncan and Shaq had equivalent careers. Like this survey, I tend to rank them as a block, and I don't get too worked up how the three of them are ranked within that block.

In terms of tangible accomplishments, you can make a case for any of them above the other, depending on what criteria you decide is important.

I think this mostly comes down to the style of play people like.

Duncan's problem is that he never averaged nearly as many points a game as Kobe or Shaq. To me, that knocks him down the list a bit and clearly puts him behind Kobe, Shaq, Magic, Bird, etc.


Duncan will always be listed lower by anyone who prioritizes scoring average, style of play, or anyting flashy.

The case for him is based on defense, consistency, and being an anchor on both ends of the court.

He falls into the group with players like Bill Walton, Bill Russell, and other guys whose greatness wasn't really reflected in the box score


Kobe was first team all defense like 9 times, as a guard.....
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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2020 11:41 pm    Post subject:

Ridiculous list. Kobe Bryant is far and away the most skilled basketball player of all time. So this list obviously can't be skill based. So you go with accolades I guess? I'd say Jordan had more meaningful accolades. But Kobe's 5 rings, and long list of all nba teams, all defensive teams, most game winners of all time etc... Should still put him number two in my opinion. Kobe literally out scored another team by himself through three quarters... Nobody else on this list is good enough to do that, sorry.

LeBron James is not better than Durant, he just isn't. Watching Durant just pull up and splash those big threes in LeBrons face in those finals cemented that fact.

Duncan better than Kobe? Laughable, absolutely laughable. Duncan had to take paycuts to stack talent, LeBron had to take paycuts to stack talent. Does anybody remember Kobe needing to stack the deck that much to win? Because I sure don't.

To be honest Durant is better than Magic, he's better than LeBron, he's better than Bird.

Wilt averaged 30 and 22... Sorry but Russell getting 15 and 22 just isn't better. As a matter of fact it isn't close. And if stats is where it's at, sorry but Westbrook needs to be up here. He averaged a triple double, what three times in a row?

If Kobe didn't get saddled with one of all-time worst supporting casts during the peak of his powers, his ring count would be even higher. Should he have ran to the Spurs and won 3-5 more? When did that behavior suddenly become celebrated?

Also Jordan had a blessed career. He had an all time great sidekick who played for absolute peanuts, which allowed them plenty of money to fill the team. That's a freaking dream situation that never will happen again.
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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 3:16 pm    Post subject:

kobeandgary wrote:
activeverb wrote:
slavavov wrote:
activeverb wrote:
danzag wrote:
Duncan ahead of Kobe lol



My sense is that when you look at everything Kobe, Duncan and Shaq had equivalent careers. Like this survey, I tend to rank them as a block, and I don't get too worked up how the three of them are ranked within that block.

In terms of tangible accomplishments, you can make a case for any of them above the other, depending on what criteria you decide is important.

I think this mostly comes down to the style of play people like.

Duncan's problem is that he never averaged nearly as many points a game as Kobe or Shaq. To me, that knocks him down the list a bit and clearly puts him behind Kobe, Shaq, Magic, Bird, etc.


Duncan will always be listed lower by anyone who prioritizes scoring average, style of play, or anyting flashy.

The case for him is based on defense, consistency, and being an anchor on both ends of the court.

He falls into the group with players like Bill Walton, Bill Russell, and other guys whose greatness wasn't really reflected in the box score


Kobe was first team all defense like 9 times, as a guard.....


Kobe was a very good defender, but I doubt many people think he was as good as Duncan.

If you want to use awards to validate how people compare them, it's better to look at how many votes they got for DPoY, since that is a heads-to-heads competition for players of all positions.

The all-defensive team ranks how players compare to others at their position, not how they compare to players in other positions.
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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 6:32 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
kobeandgary wrote:
activeverb wrote:
slavavov wrote:
activeverb wrote:
danzag wrote:
Duncan ahead of Kobe lol



My sense is that when you look at everything Kobe, Duncan and Shaq had equivalent careers. Like this survey, I tend to rank them as a block, and I don't get too worked up how the three of them are ranked within that block.

In terms of tangible accomplishments, you can make a case for any of them above the other, depending on what criteria you decide is important.

I think this mostly comes down to the style of play people like.

Duncan's problem is that he never averaged nearly as many points a game as Kobe or Shaq. To me, that knocks him down the list a bit and clearly puts him behind Kobe, Shaq, Magic, Bird, etc.


Duncan will always be listed lower by anyone who prioritizes scoring average, style of play, or anyting flashy.

The case for him is based on defense, consistency, and being an anchor on both ends of the court.

He falls into the group with players like Bill Walton, Bill Russell, and other guys whose greatness wasn't really reflected in the box score


Kobe was first team all defense like 9 times, as a guard.....


Kobe was a very good defender, but I doubt many people think he was as good as Duncan.

If you want to use awards to validate how people compare them, it's better to look at how many votes they got for DPoY, since that is a heads-to-heads competition for players of all positions.

The all-defensive team ranks how players compare to others at their position, not how they compare to players in other positions.


The DPOY award has changed over the years. In the first 10 years in existence, only 3 Centers won. Over the last 27, 22 have been Centers, and 2 of those (Draymon and KG) were essentially Centers on their teams.

Quite frankly, an award that's been dominated by Gobert, Howard, Mutombo and Ben Wallace isnt something to hang your hat on.
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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2020 7:48 am    Post subject:

vanexelent wrote:


The DPOY award has changed over the years. In the first 10 years in existence, only 3 Centers won. Over the last 27, 22 have been Centers, and 2 of those (Draymon and KG) were essentially Centers on their teams.

Quite frankly, an award that's been dominated by Gobert, Howard, Mutombo and Ben Wallace isnt something to hang your hat on.


I disagree with you there. Wallace, Mutombo and Mourning were all great defenders. Hard to find a list of greatest defenders in NBA history that doesn't rank them near the top.

The DPoY award is interesting. The award didn't change as much as the voting system for the award changed. In the first decade, the 70-90 voters(it changed) voted for only one person. As a result, you had highly split ballots, where the winner might have received votes from less than 20% of the voters.

For example, one year Moncrief beat Eaton 19-14, but 43 of the voters didn’t want either of them. So the DPoY was a guy that 75% of the voters didn't put on their ballot.

After about year 10, they moved to a ballot where you voted for choices 1-2-3. From that point on, centers dominated.

I think the early system was a skewed because voters only had one choice and a huge percentage of the votes went to “pet players” who clearly had no chance for the award and didn't deserve it (Paul Pressey, Doc Rivers, Derek Harper, Bill Lambier).

The later ballots gave voters a third place choice for their pet guys, so there was generally more consensus around the actual winner.
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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2020 10:36 am    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
Probably more than half the people at ESPN never saw Kareem play.


I was waiting for you to say that. And I agree with you. I simply have never seen a legitimate 7footer be so complete in every area as Kareem. Maybe that's my bias: the fact that he was 7feet plus, and had every skill Jordan had except outside shooting.

And we'll never know what he could have done from the outside because that would have been at least a partial waste of his immense talents.
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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2020 11:03 am    Post subject:

LakerDYnasty72 wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
Probably more than half the people at ESPN never saw Kareem play.


I was waiting for you to say that. And I agree with you. I simply have never seen a legitimate 7footer be so complete in every area as Kareem. Maybe that's my bias: the fact that he was 7feet plus, and had every skill Jordan had except outside shooting.

And we'll never know what he could have done from the outside because that would have been at least a partial waste of his immense talents.



Only 7-footer I can think of who checked more boxes than Kareem was Garnett, since he was also so versatile on the defensive end. He wasn't as talented as Kareem though.
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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2020 11:34 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
LakerDYnasty72 wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
Probably more than half the people at ESPN never saw Kareem play.


I was waiting for you to say that. And I agree with you. I simply have never seen a legitimate 7footer be so complete in every area as Kareem. Maybe that's my bias: the fact that he was 7feet plus, and had every skill Jordan had except outside shooting.

And we'll never know what he could have done from the outside because that would have been at least a partial waste of his immense talents.



Only 7-footer I can think of who checked more boxes than Kareem was Garnett, since he was also so versatile on the defensive end. He wasn't as talented as Kareem though.


Yep, good one. KG is on my all time "wished he had played for the Lakers" list. My list is made up of great players who played for multiple teams, so on some level I wished we had stepped in and acquired him.

Bad boy Rasheed Wallace was another one. While in transit from Portland to Atlanta to Detroit to Boston.....I kept crying "intercept and get him Lakers, intercept and get him Lakers"
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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2020 12:19 pm    Post subject:

If these lists were honest, they wouldn't be presented as a "Rank of the All-Time Greatest Players," but rather as a "Rank of the All-Time Favorite Narratives."

It's quite clear that Jordan, Kobe, and LeBron are the greatest basketball PLAYERS of all time.

In my view, Jordan and Kobe are a tier ahead of LeBron in terms of sustained play as a complete basketball player.

LeBron, in my view, ultimately unlocked nearly every facet of the game, but he has never quite been the complete package all at once - whether it was being a subpar defender early in his career (and abandoning defense again during his Cavs stint) to being a subpar outside shooter until his latter career improvement as an outside shooter to his fairly consistent woes at the stripe. However, LeBron has almost always been utterly dominant and possessed incredible passing and at-rim scoring skills.

Kobe and Jordan possessed the complete package as basketball PLAYERS for a fairly long stretch - at-rim scoring to outside scoring (and everywhere in between), strong team and individual defense, all-time great footwork, excellent passing skills, elite rebounding guards (who could box out a big when needed), brilliant post play, supremely high basketball IQ, et al. And they were also dominant, which is an important compliment to owning the complete skill set.

But these lists aren't really about assessing basketball players in terms of "play," it's about narrative and likability and awards. It's why Duncan and Bird always end up ahead of Kobe on these lists despite not having a strong argument against him (unlike LeBron or KAJ or Magic who have legitimate cases to be made).
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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2020 12:58 pm    Post subject:

LakerDYnasty72 wrote:
activeverb wrote:
LakerDYnasty72 wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
Probably more than half the people at ESPN never saw Kareem play.


I was waiting for you to say that. And I agree with you. I simply have never seen a legitimate 7footer be so complete in every area as Kareem. Maybe that's my bias: the fact that he was 7feet plus, and had every skill Jordan had except outside shooting.

And we'll never know what he could have done from the outside because that would have been at least a partial waste of his immense talents.



Only 7-footer I can think of who checked more boxes than Kareem was Garnett, since he was also so versatile on the defensive end. He wasn't as talented as Kareem though.


Yep, good one. KG is on my all time "wished he had played for the Lakers" list. My list is made up of great players who played for multiple teams, so on some level I wished we had stepped in and acquired him.

Bad boy Rasheed Wallace was another one. While in transit from Portland to Atlanta to Detroit to Boston.....I kept crying "intercept and get him Lakers, intercept and get him Lakers"


Rasheed never became the star these other guys did, but he had a great all-around skillset.
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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2020 1:07 pm    Post subject:

ArminNBA wrote:
If these lists were honest, they wouldn't be presented as a "Rank of the All-Time Greatest Players," but rather as a "Rank of the All-Time Favorite Narratives."

It's quite clear that Jordan, Kobe, and LeBron are the greatest basketball PLAYERS of all time.

In my view, Jordan and Kobe are a tier ahead of LeBron in terms of sustained play as a complete basketball player.

LeBron, in my view, ultimately unlocked nearly every facet of the game, but he has never quite been the complete package all at once - whether it was being a subpar defender early in his career (and abandoning defense again during his Cavs stint) to being a subpar outside shooter until his latter career improvement as an outside shooter to his fairly consistent woes at the stripe. However, LeBron has almost always been utterly dominant and possessed incredible passing and at-rim scoring skills.

Kobe and Jordan possessed the complete package as basketball PLAYERS for a fairly long stretch - at-rim scoring to outside scoring (and everywhere in between), strong team and individual defense, all-time great footwork, excellent passing skills, elite rebounding guards (who could box out a big when needed), brilliant post play, supremely high basketball IQ, et al. And they were also dominant, which is an important compliment to owning the complete skill set.

But these lists aren't really about assessing basketball players in terms of "play," it's about narrative and likability and awards. It's why Duncan and Bird always end up ahead of Kobe on these lists despite not having a strong argument against him (unlike LeBron or KAJ or Magic who have legitimate cases to be made).


By and large, most people rank players primary on their accomplishments, rather than their skillset. They figure that the skillset leads to the accomplishments, so it's all baked in their together.

I'm really not sure what you mean by "Narrative. What do you see as Bird's and Duncan's narrative that stands apart from their accomplishments?


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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2020 1:14 pm    Post subject:

LakerDYnasty72 wrote:
activeverb wrote:
LakerDYnasty72 wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
Probably more than half the people at ESPN never saw Kareem play.


I was waiting for you to say that. And I agree with you. I simply have never seen a legitimate 7footer be so complete in every area as Kareem. Maybe that's my bias: the fact that he was 7feet plus, and had every skill Jordan had except outside shooting.

And we'll never know what he could have done from the outside because that would have been at least a partial waste of his immense talents.



Only 7-footer I can think of who checked more boxes than Kareem was Garnett, since he was also so versatile on the defensive end. He wasn't as talented as Kareem though.


Yep, good one. KG is on my all time "wished he had played for the Lakers" list. My list is made up of great players who played for multiple teams, so on some level I wished we had stepped in and acquired him.

Bad boy Rasheed Wallace was another one. While in transit from Portland to Atlanta to Detroit to Boston.....I kept crying "intercept and get him Lakers, intercept and get him Lakers"


He was an alpha with his mouth but a beta with his offensive game. I wanted to trade for KG SOOOOOO bad. I was advocating it before year 3 of the 3peat. KG would have been Uber Pippen next to Kobe.
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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2020 2:05 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
ArminNBA wrote:
If these lists were honest, they wouldn't be presented as a "Rank of the All-Time Greatest Players," but rather as a "Rank of the All-Time Favorite Narratives."

It's quite clear that Jordan, Kobe, and LeBron are the greatest basketball PLAYERS of all time.

In my view, Jordan and Kobe are a tier ahead of LeBron in terms of sustained play as a complete basketball player.

LeBron, in my view, ultimately unlocked nearly every facet of the game, but he has never quite been the complete package all at once - whether it was being a subpar defender early in his career (and abandoning defense again during his Cavs stint) to being a subpar outside shooter until his latter career improvement as an outside shooter to his fairly consistent woes at the stripe. However, LeBron has almost always been utterly dominant and possessed incredible passing and at-rim scoring skills.

Kobe and Jordan possessed the complete package as basketball PLAYERS for a fairly long stretch - at-rim scoring to outside scoring (and everywhere in between), strong team and individual defense, all-time great footwork, excellent passing skills, elite rebounding guards (who could box out a big when needed), brilliant post play, supremely high basketball IQ, et al. And they were also dominant, which is an important compliment to owning the complete skill set.

But these lists aren't really about assessing basketball players in terms of "play," it's about narrative and likability and awards. It's why Duncan and Bird always end up ahead of Kobe on these lists despite not having a strong argument against him (unlike LeBron or KAJ or Magic who have legitimate cases to be made).


By and large, most people rank players primary on their accomplishments, rather than their skillset. They figure that the skillset leads to the accomplishments, so it's all baked in their together.

I'm really not sure what you mean by "likeable." I mean, was Lebron really more "likeable" than Kobe? Seems like they were both hugely popular, but they were also divisive.

"Narrative" confuses me too. What do you see as Bird's and Duncan's narrative that stands apart from their accomplishments?


This is a critique of the media, not the general public or players (who generally place Kobe in the Top 3-5).

LeBron is certainly much more well-liked by the media than Kobe, sans the immediate aftermath of The Decision (and Skip Bayless). But even in the aftermath of The Decision, there was a strong media push to manufacture consent in the opposite direction of criticism, reframing critique of the event as silly and largely unwarranted. Anyhow, it's well-documented that LeBron has strong media connections and relationships while Kobe had a largely adversarial relationship with the media (including high profile beefs, like with Mike Wilbon) until that dynamic changed near the end of his life.

In terms of media coverage, Bird and Duncan both have clean narratives that the media recite in loops and they're both largely positive. Bird's role in the Golden Era is undeniable and his battles with Showtime are iconic. Duncan is only ever portrayed as calm, steady, and the pillar of the "unassailable" Spurs dynasty.

On the other hand, the media never fails to paint the portrait of Kobe's (beautifully) complex career (which is fair, but not a consistency in the media's coverage of players) - whether it's the perception of Kobe as a selfish player or his failings as a leader or his controversial Game 7 against the Suns or his subpar play in his final seasons or the breakup with Shaq or the idea that 3 of Kobe's titles are deemed less worthy because of Shaq or that "no superstar ever wanted to play with him" and on and on.

Not to say some of this coverage doesn't have merit. However, I think most of the coverage is unsubstantiated and/or sensationalistic. And in the case of most legendary players, the media portrayal is more akin to hagiography.
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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2020 2:47 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
ArminNBA wrote:
activeverb wrote:
ArminNBA wrote:
If these lists were honest, they wouldn't be presented as a "Rank of the All-Time Greatest Players," but rather as a "Rank of the All-Time Favorite Narratives."

It's quite clear that Jordan, Kobe, and LeBron are the greatest basketball PLAYERS of all time.

In my view, Jordan and Kobe are a tier ahead of LeBron in terms of sustained play as a complete basketball player.

LeBron, in my view, ultimately unlocked nearly every facet of the game, but he has never quite been the complete package all at once - whether it was being a subpar defender early in his career (and abandoning defense again during his Cavs stint) to being a subpar outside shooter until his latter career improvement as an outside shooter to his fairly consistent woes at the stripe. However, LeBron has almost always been utterly dominant and possessed incredible passing and at-rim scoring skills.

Kobe and Jordan possessed the complete package as basketball PLAYERS for a fairly long stretch - at-rim scoring to outside scoring (and everywhere in between), strong team and individual defense, all-time great footwork, excellent passing skills, elite rebounding guards (who could box out a big when needed), brilliant post play, supremely high basketball IQ, et al. And they were also dominant, which is an important compliment to owning the complete skill set.

But these lists aren't really about assessing basketball players in terms of "play," it's about narrative and likability and awards. It's why Duncan and Bird always end up ahead of Kobe on these lists despite not having a strong argument against him (unlike LeBron or KAJ or Magic who have legitimate cases to be made).


By and large, most people rank players primary on their accomplishments, rather than their skillset. They figure that the skillset leads to the accomplishments, so it's all baked in their together.

I'm really not sure what you mean by "likeable." I mean, was Lebron really more "likeable" than Kobe? Seems like they were both hugely popular, but they were also divisive.

"Narrative" confuses me too. What do you see as Bird's and Duncan's narrative that stands apart from their accomplishments?


This is a critique of the media, not the general public or players (who generally place Kobe in the Top 3-5).

LeBron is certainly much more well-liked by the media than Kobe, sans the immediate aftermath of The Decision (and Skip Bayless). But even in the aftermath of The Decision, there was a strong media push to manufacture consent in the opposite direction of criticism, reframing critique of the event as silly and largely unwarranted. Anyhow, it's well-documented that LeBron has strong media connections and relationships while Kobe had a largely adversarial relationship with the media (including high profile beefs, like with Mike Wilbon) until that dynamic changed near the end of his life.

In terms of media coverage, Bird and Duncan both have clean narratives that the media recite in loops and they're both largely positive. Bird's role in the Golden Era is undeniable and his battles with Showtime are iconic. Duncan is only ever portrayed as calm, steady, and the pillar of the "unassailable" Spurs dynasty.

On the other hand, the media never fails to paint the portrait of Kobe's (beautifully) complex career (which is fair, but not a consistency in the media's coverage of players) - whether it's the perception of Kobe as a selfish player or his failings as a leader or his controversial Game 7 against the Suns or his subpar play in his final seasons or the breakup with Shaq or the idea that 3 of Kobe's titles are deemed less worthy because of Shaq or that "no superstar ever wanted to play with him" and on and on.

Not to say some of this coverage doesn't have merit. However, I think most of the coverage is unsubstantiated and/or sensationalistic. And in the case of most legendary players, the media portrayal is more akin to hagiography.



My guess is if you polled the fan club of any famous person, most would say their guy was treated less well by the media than the other guy.


Simple thing to say and on its surface sounds reasonable and correct, but not true.
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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2020 3:08 pm    Post subject:

^^

I'm not interested in going more deeply into the briar patch of how people perceive Kobe was treated by the media.

Be well.
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ArminNBA
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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2020 3:14 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
^^
Hmm. I'm not interested in going more deeply into the briar patch of how people perceive Kobe was treated by the media.

If I realized that was the direction you were taking this, I wouldn't have opened this can of worms in the first place.

Be well.


Fair enough. But as a final note, there are empirical studies done on media coverage (not for sports that I'm aware of, but other industries). While it's nice to believe the media is exacting and neutral in its coverage and it is simply consumers reacting unreasonably, the hegemony of corporate media leads to significant influence on consumers. Unfortunately, I can't point to empirical data in the particular case of Kobe and Duncan, but if we simply observe fairly basic trends of NBA discourse, like I said, Duncan is often portrayed as the pillar of a steady dynasty...and Kobe's discourse is far more polarizing. It's not too complex or even scandalous.
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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2020 3:23 pm    Post subject:

ArminNBA wrote:
activeverb wrote:
^^
Hmm. I'm not interested in going more deeply into the briar patch of how people perceive Kobe was treated by the media.

If I realized that was the direction you were taking this, I wouldn't have opened this can of worms in the first place.

Be well.


Fair enough. But as a final note, there are empirical studies done on media coverage (not for sports that I'm aware of, but other industries). While it's nice to believe the media is exacting and neutral in its coverage and it is simply consumers reacting unreasonably, the hegemony of corporate media leads to significant influence on consumers. Unfortunately, I can't point to empirical data in the particular case of Kobe and Duncan, but if we simply observe fairly basic trends of NBA discourse, like I said, Duncan is often portrayed as the pillar of a steady dynasty...and Kobe's discourse is far more polarizing. It's not too complex or even scandalous.


Perceptions of media coverage is interesting. I just don't want to discuss that in the context of Kobe. Just too big a can of worms.
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anth2000
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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2020 3:59 pm    Post subject:

KBandKB wrote:
The list should be:

1. MJ
2. LeBron
3. Kareem
4. Wilt
5. Kobe
6. Magic
7. Russell
8. Duncan
9. Bird

Two for sure:

Kobe > Duncan:
While this is a little tough, scoring does play a huge role. Duncan averaged less than 20 points for the majority of his career, while Kobe led the league in scoring twice, and had three 30+ point seasons when the league wasn't even close to the fast paced offense we see today. Kobe has identical number of rings as Duncan but one more Finals appearance. If people can discredit Kobe's first three because of Shaq, someone's also got to point out Duncan winning in 2014 as well when both Tony Parker and Kawhi played an even more important role for winning the 2014 ring. You also have to compare Kobe's production in the playoffs versus Duncan's production in the playoffs. Kobe's is superior. Also in head to head matches in the playoffs, Kobe conquered, beating Duncan in 2001, 2002, 2004, and 2008. Duncan only beat him in 1999 and 2003. Finally, sure Duncan made the playoffs each year of his career, but Kobe single handedly brought a Lakers team who (besides Lamar) was literally trash to two straight playoff appearances (2006 and 2007), almost beating the D'antoni's Suns. Duncan's teams were always stacked.

Kobe > Bird:
Only thing Bird was extremely superior over Kobe was shooting percentage and obviously rebounding. Kobe was superior in scoring, defense, and longevity of career as well. They both have two finals mvp's, but Kobe has more championships, finals appearances, and won with two different "teams" while Bird won his 3 with an almost similar supporting cast. Sure Bird has two more MVP's, but Kobe has more All-Star appearances, All-NBA teams, and Defensive All-NBA teams.

A little bit tougher:

Kobe > Magic
Kobe is better at defense, scoring, outside shooting, and longevity of career. However, obviously Magic was the best facilitator the league has ever seen and can rebound well as a point guard. A little tough, but I'd give a slight edge to Kobe, but not by much.

Kobe > Russell
Two completely different eras so the only reason I'm making the case here is because I'm biased.


Kobe shouldn't be 9th on the list but he is not better than Magic. Magic changed the game. Magic transformed the game. Not saying Kobe didn't do great things, but I would think 1 out of every 10 million fans would select Kobe over Magic in the top 5.

And Russell was greater than Wilt. Wilt was statistically better but Russell was a defensive monster and has 11 rings to show for it.

Bird was better than Duncan...not sure anyone can argue that either. Transformed the game with Magic. Didn't win as many titles as Duncan but Bird was a killer....a pure killer and for a non athletic white dude.

Here is my list.

1. MJ
2. LeBron
3. Kareem
4. Russell
5. Magic
6. Kobe
7. Wilt
8. Bird
9. Duncan
10. Shaq
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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2020 5:28 pm    Post subject:

^^
Those 10 players seem to be the 10 on 90% of all top 10 lists. They get scrambled every possible way, and people always say they can't imagine how anyone could argue with the way they scramble them
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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2020 5:58 pm    Post subject:

jonnybravo wrote:
LakerDYnasty72 wrote:
activeverb wrote:
LakerDYnasty72 wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
Probably more than half the people at ESPN never saw Kareem play.


I was waiting for you to say that. And I agree with you. I simply have never seen a legitimate 7footer be so complete in every area as Kareem. Maybe that's my bias: the fact that he was 7feet plus, and had every skill Jordan had except outside shooting.

And we'll never know what he could have done from the outside because that would have been at least a partial waste of his immense talents.



Only 7-footer I can think of who checked more boxes than Kareem was Garnett, since he was also so versatile on the defensive end. He wasn't as talented as Kareem though.


Yep, good one. KG is on my all time "wished he had played for the Lakers" list. My list is made up of great players who played for multiple teams, so on some level I wished we had stepped in and acquired him.

Bad boy Rasheed Wallace was another one. While in transit from Portland to Atlanta to Detroit to Boston.....I kept crying "intercept and get him Lakers, intercept and get him Lakers"


He was an alpha with his mouth but a beta with his offensive game. I wanted to trade for KG SOOOOOO bad. I was advocating it before year 3 of the 3peat. KG would have been Uber Pippen next to Kobe.


Kobe & KG would have been a dream. McHale in Minny, and Ainge in Boston were making sure he did not make it to the Lakers.
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