The only way Odom can be consistent is if he's in the post...Kobe should be the facilitator in the first half
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loyola66
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 5:31 pm    Post subject: The only way Odom can be consistent is if he's in the post...Kobe should be the facilitator in the first half

Well I just spent 10 mins writing a post about how Odom needs to go and isn't part of the big picture, but I sorta am laying off that for now...

I think to avoid games like the ones last night (ie games against teams with Winning records), Kobe needs to be the facilitator in the first quarter and second quarter...I mean getting Odom/Cook/Mihm/Smush to a quick start...I think Kobe is capable of doing this, just draw the double team and find the open man...Of course Kobe can get a shot or two in there just to get a feel..

Then right after halftime (when we usually go cold), this is the time when Lamar can play the faciltator role, and Kobe should try to take over a bit...

Bascially, I just want Lamar in as the faciltator, he has a laid back atitude, and relaly hasn't shown me he wants to be great EVERY night...the only way I can see him being consistently giving us something, is if we get him to go to work in the post where he's comfortable...

Now obviously this isn't a longterm plan, the longterm plan for a championship is to get real point guard to run the offense with Kobe and Bynum as offensive beasts, but I feel until we get a real facilitator (or Garnett), Kobe setting up people early ('specially Cook and Odom) will allow us to win more games...

Oh yeah, I just realized Raptors can offer Chris Bosh a Max contract THIS summer, which means the Lakers basically have no chance of getting him, DMWQLKMR#!%@R#$@RFWQRGER I just hope Raptors continue to tank the season, and maybe Bosh will play another season for 5 mil and come to the Lakers? (YEAH right...)



PS Not that Phil Jackson will even try this method of Kobe as facilitor, but if Odom is getting more post plays and continues to be streaky, I really have lost all hope for the dude (altho he was quite solid in Miami)...
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hoopschick29
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 6:00 pm    Post subject:

There's a reason why Lamar Odom doesn't see a lot of post action. It's not in his DNA.

What do all post players have in common?? They are all very aggressive players. You have defensive post players like Rodman and Ben Wallace, and you have offensive post players like (take your pick). But post players get pushed around a lot, elbowed, forearmed, nudged. It takes an aggressive personality to be able to work down there.

Lamar Odom may have moves, but he doesn't have the balls to be a consistent post player. This guy brings the ball up, makes the initial entry pass, and then drifts almost completely out of the offensive set. A post player makes the cut, and then immediately dives in and attempts to push somebody off his spot.

See that's the thing. He's the initiator. He can make the entry pass, cut, and then set himself up on the blocks. But he doesn't do that because he doesn't have a post player mindset. He's not an aggressor.
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Ank
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 6:12 pm    Post subject:

Kobe being the iniator in the first half will tire him. The only reason we win any games at all now is due to his late spurts. Take that away and what do you have? Better production out of lamar and more losses. Even when Lamar gets 18/10, Kobe still needs to score 35. That's a our problem. We need a point guard who initates. Without that, Odom has to keep the ball.
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loyola66
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 6:12 pm    Post subject:

Well Lamar's patented move is driving to his left and that long extension to make the layup, I think the double teams can allow Lamar to do this consisently, plus his quickness itself...I thought Lamar proved his post abilities in Miami?
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loyola66
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 6:16 pm    Post subject:

Well thats the thing, Kobe as the initiator will be more tired than Kobe trying to force the issue cuz we're down in the first half??? I know it sounds simple, but Kobe needs to: 1) receive ball 2) attract double team 3) pass to open man...im not sure, is that really tiring???
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hoopschick29
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 6:19 pm    Post subject:

loyola66 wrote:
Well Lamar's patented move is driving to his left and that long extension to make the layup, I think the double teams can allow Lamar to do this consisently, plus his quickness itself...I thought Lamar proved his post abilities in Miami?


His supposed glorious post game in Miami is an oft overstated one. He averaged 17 ppg in Miami. It wasn't like it was some huge difference. The same shots he got in South Beach, he could get here. It's all about what's upstairs. It really doesn't matter where you position him on the floor.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 6:19 pm    Post subject:

loyola66 wrote:
Well thats the thing, Kobe as the initiator will be more tired than Kobe trying to force the issue cuz we're down in the first half??? I know it sounds simple, but Kobe needs to: 1) receive ball 2) attract double team 3) pass to open man...im not sure, is that really tiring???


which is exactly what he was doing that road trip before all-star break.. what was the result?

Kobe simply is being asked to do too much for this team while we have Lamar earning superstar salary and playing like a 6th man.
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hoopschick29
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 6:22 pm    Post subject:

rpadma12 wrote:
loyola66 wrote:
Well thats the thing, Kobe as the initiator will be more tired than Kobe trying to force the issue cuz we're down in the first half??? I know it sounds simple, but Kobe needs to: 1) receive ball 2) attract double team 3) pass to open man...im not sure, is that really tiring???


which is exactly what he was doing that road trip before all-star break.. what was the result?

Kobe simply is being asked to do too much for this team while we have Lamar earning superstar salary and playing like a 6th man.


Exactly. Why flip the universe around just for the hope that Lamar Odom will do things he's supposed to do anyway??
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loyola66
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 6:23 pm    Post subject:

the roadtrip i think was an exception, actually I think it was necessary jsut to see how low we could go, plus the Indiana game I think was just a BAD game, like it was attitude problem, wasn't because kobe was the initiator

Then of course Lamar and Chris got injured, so....my point is, I think it's worth trying kobe as the intiator again, now we are confident Brian Cook can be a realiable shooter, Lamar in the post should be somewhat realiable, and Chris Mihm is coming back, so its definitly worth a shot, I think better than hoping that Lamar changes his attitude or something like that
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loyola66
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 6:24 pm    Post subject:

kobe becoming the initiator wouldn't be flipping the universe imo, rather, just making the extra pass in a sense, of course I don't want the Lakers do change the whole game plan if thats what it takes here
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hoopschick29
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 6:34 pm    Post subject:

loyola66 wrote:
kobe becoming the initiator wouldn't be flipping the universe imo, rather, just making the extra pass in a sense, of course I don't want the Lakers do change the whole game plan if thats what it takes here


What exactly is your objective here where Lamar is concerned?? Do you think this will encourage him to play harder or smarter?? Do you think that this will keep his head in a game for 48 minutes.

I maintain it's not a strategic issue with Lamar. He has a heart problem. He simply does not want it bad enough. He doesn't want to be great. The people who want it do whatever it takes to pull their weight, to produce. It doesn't have to be an ideal situation. That being said, I would entertain the thought of adjusting the offense if I could at least see the desire in Lamar. It's just not there.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 6:55 pm    Post subject:

The team could try having LO in the post the first half with Kobe distributing, but I agree that Kobe won't have as much energy in the 4th quarter. It may get Odom going though.

I think the big problem we have is one that can't be corrected with any game plan...and that is that against the better more defensively aggressive teams, we don't have anyone other than Kobe that can create their own shot when the offense breaks down.

Everyone looks to pass when any kind of defense is applied. We need another "scorer".
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rpadma12
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 6:56 pm    Post subject:

I've yet to see any other team asking the superstar to change his game back and forth as Kobe has in his career thus far. Whenever Shaq didn't have the mood and wasn't in shape, Kobe had to take up the role.. When Shaq felt like he was ready, he expected Kobe to go back to a facilitator role on a dime.

Now, it's this. I hope the front office gets some short-term help at least.. Kobe is going to wear out otherwise before they even build a true contender.


Last edited by rpadma12 on Sat Feb 25, 2006 7:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 7:00 pm    Post subject:

LO is our best post-player on offense outside of Mihm.
(excluding Kobe because I'm refering to the 3-5 spots)

That's not saying much, given his competition mind you.

Still, people forget that we've used him in the post a good bit last year
and Miami did as well his last year there.

I get mixed reviews whenever I bring it up, and I don't PREFER Lamar
at PF, but I DO think on the average we don't lose anything moving him
there either.

You can only play him at the 4 against certain teams (and we already do
sometimes), but his numbers tend to be better when he's at the four.

He also tends to defend most fours better than threes, IMO.

(I'd note that you DO have to watch his fouls when he's at the 4 though).


Anywho, I'd like to see Lamar in the post more often.
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loyola66
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 7:18 pm    Post subject:

the point is to get Lamar in his so-called "comfort zone" or more comfortable zone, which is not as a facilitator, but th post, look if lamar shows he cant excel if some adjustments like these are made, its obvious that we need to get rid of him, but I'm not ready to give up on him yet, and really, do the Lakers even have a choice at this point until the offseason?
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wolfpaclaker
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 8:43 am    Post subject:

Quote:
Kobe simply is being asked to do too much for this team while we have Lamar earning superstar salary and playing like a 6th man

Kobe jockers never cease to amaze me.

6th man?

Kobe asked to do too much?

Does Phil Jackson call the timeout and tell Kobe to start launching 3's and play 1 on 5 to get the win?

That's Kobe. Phil said that Kobe wanted to take every game over when he had 4 HOF's playing with him.

It's Kobe's nature to want to do everything. Especially on offense.

6th man? Pathetic :roll:
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loyola66
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 9:49 am    Post subject:

BOTTOM LINE: KOBE FACILITATE IN THE FIRST HALF, LET EVERYONE DROP THEIRS', AND THEN TAKE THAT (bleep) OVER IN SECOND HALF........it's how we won the two games after the allstar break, DO IT
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 10:25 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
Does Phil Jackson call the timeout and tell Kobe to start launching 3's and play 1 on 5 to get the win?


Better Kobe take the shot than those other scrubs if they aren't going to be hitting them. Also, what's sad is that the team's chances of winning actually go up when Kobe plays like that. Regarding the launching of threes, Kobe is just trying to get the team back into the game the only way possible. Two-point buckets certainly aren't going to cut it because the team defense is so piss-poor that they would just end up trading baskets.
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THE GOODS
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 10:31 am    Post subject:

kobe was facilitating in the first quarter of the clippers game but nobody was scoring for crap...that's why he took the game over when they went down 12-1...i don't blame kobe for dominating the ball in that game because he was the only one playing out there...LO was aggressive to start the game but after he kept missing he looked as though he was deferring to shoot...we could have won that game if PJ switched mihm from guarding brand and put back kwame...mihm was getting torched in the 3rd quarter and then PJ puts kwame back in when were down 17...
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 10:59 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
Quote:
Kobe simply is being asked to do too much for this team while we have Lamar earning superstar salary and playing like a 6th man

Kobe jockers never cease to amaze me.

6th man?

6th man? Pathetic :roll:


8 points, 9 rebounds, what else do you call that?

Cook has 9 points and 5 rebounds in the same game. That more or less puts Lamar in the ball park of a bench player--for that game.

The game before George had 15 and 9 off the bench.

So yeah, 8 and 9, that'd be acceptable for a bench player. We'd all be happy if Cook or George gave us that in any given game.

And in some sense what distinguishes a bench player from a starter is consistency, no? Lamar apparently cannot string together more than 2 good games in a row. Neither can George. Or Cook. That is why they, more often than not, come off the bench. Also note that Lamar's handiwork took 43 minutes to accomplish. Cook got his in 17.

Obviously Lamar is better than a bench caliber player--but if he cannot consistently realize that level of play, then he's little better than one (on average).
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wolfpaclaker
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 11:20 am    Post subject:

^
Wow, so I guess all these guys are 6th men too eh for the games they've had

Rasheed Wallace

1/2 9 points 3 rebounds
7/2 7 points 4 rebounds
24/2 2 points, 10 rebounds

The fact is, Odom is a Rasheed type of production and player overall with his 14-15/8-10/4-6 game. Odom like Sheed is NOT a superstar.

Odom like Sheed in Portland is being asked by you guys to be a superstar, when isn't that.

So I guess Rasheed having 3 games like that within 3 weeks is a 6th man too eh?

Don't blame one player for a team's failure. I find it soo ironic that Kobe jockers now beg for a 20/10 bigman.

Gee - When they that had that 20/10 bigmen they couldn't wait to trade him. :roll:

Best thing for this team is to either trade Odom for a superstar or get a team around Odom and Bryant that actually has some consistent power game in the post and shooting.
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nesli
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 11:55 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
^
Wow, so I guess all these guys are 6th men too eh for the games they've had

Rasheed Wallace

1/2 9 points 3 rebounds
7/2 7 points 4 rebounds
24/2 2 points, 10 rebounds

The fact is, Odom is a Rasheed type of production and player overall with his 14-15/8-10/4-6 game. Odom like Sheed is NOT a superstar.

Odom like Sheed in Portland is being asked by you guys to be a superstar, when isn't that.

So I guess Rasheed having 3 games like that within 3 weeks is a 6th man too eh?

Don't blame one player for a team's failure. I find it soo ironic that Kobe jockers now beg for a 20/10 bigman.

Gee - When they that had that 20/10 bigmen they couldn't wait to trade him. :roll:

Best thing for this team is to either trade Odom for a superstar or get a team around Odom and Bryant that actually has some consistent power game in the post and shooting.

yes this is the problem .Although odom is NOT a superstar ,he is getting superstar money.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 11:58 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
^
Wow, so I guess all these guys are 6th men too eh for the games they've had

Rasheed Wallace

1/2 9 points 3 rebounds
7/2 7 points 4 rebounds
24/2 2 points, 10 rebounds


Rasheed Wallace is surrounded by very capable players, so he doesn't have to do as much all the time in order for the team to pull out a win. Other players constantly step up. What's Odom's excuse?
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 11:59 am    Post subject:

loyola66 wrote:
kobe becoming the initiator wouldn't be flipping the universe imo, rather, just making the extra pass in a sense, of course I don't want the Lakers do change the whole game plan if thats what it takes here


I also think it would be a good idea also. The rest of the team should set it up in the first half and Kobe should knock em down the second half.
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wolfpaclaker
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 11:59 am    Post subject:

Quote:
yes this is the problem .Although odom is NOT a superstar ,he is getting superstar money.

This has been proven false many times.

Kenyon Martin
Tyson Chandler
Troy Murphy

^
Go check out their salary.

Rasheed Wallace and Antawn Jamison are making the same amount that Lamar Odom is.

A superstar (Kobe, Garnett, Nash) is ussually paid between 15-20 million.

Odom is paid in that 10-12 range that many All-Star calibar players are paid (Rasheed for example)
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