In retrospect, were the 2010-2011 and 2011-2012 Lakers ever serious contenders?

 
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:05 am    Post subject: In retrospect, were the 2010-2011 and 2011-2012 Lakers ever serious contenders?

2010-2011 being Phil's last year with the Lakers as two-time defending champions and 2011-2012 being the Mike Brown year.

Did the Kobe, Pau, Bynum, Odom, Artest, and Fisher core ever stand a real chance of threepeating in 2010-2011? If we hadn't dealt Odom, how about in 2011-2012?

I don't see us beating the HEAT either year even if we had made it to the finals.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:30 am    Post subject:

2010-2011 we had a legit chance in terms of talent. If Pau could get back to his level from the beginning of that season or even the level and grit he showed he showed in the 2010 finals vs Boston, he would have clearly outplayed Bosh. Nowitzki was playing his best ball and Dirk is a better player than Pau so Dirk would have still won that matchup but it would have been nowhere the mismatch it was in 2011. I blame 2011 on Pau. He set the wrong tone even in the New Orleans series and seemed to be in a mental funk that entire playoff run. I remember 2011 as really being the last legit chance we had. Had we been in the mental place of 2010, we would have won that 2011 title with Dallas being the true possible roadblock as they were not a matchup problem for us but they were playing like they were the team of destiny that year with numerous 4th quarter improbable comebacks

2011-2012 we got beat by a better team: Plain and Simple. Thunder were better than us and had we held on to our lead vs them in games 2 and 4 and could close them out in 6, we would have stolen that series from them. Even in that case, SAS would have taken us out and even if we somehow got by them (Bynum seems to play great ball against the Spurs) there is no way in hell, we are beating Miami. We lost here where we were supposed to lose.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:38 am    Post subject:

x75274 wrote:
2010-2011 we had a legit chance in terms of talent. If Pau could get back to his level from the beginning of that season or even the level and grit he showed he showed in the 2010 finals vs Boston, he would have clearly outplayed Bosh. Nowitzki was playing his best ball and Dirk is a better player than Pau so Dirk would have still won that matchup but it would have been nowhere the mismatch it was in 2011. I blame 2011 on Pau. He set the wrong tone even in the New Orleans series and seemed to be in a mental funk that entire playoff run. I remember 2011 as really being the last legit chance we had. Had we been in the mental place of 2010, we would have won that 2011 title with Dallas being the true possible roadblock as they were not a matchup problem for us but they were playing like they were the team of destiny that year with numerous 4th quarter improbable comebacks

2011-2012 we got beat by a better team: Plain and Simple. Thunder were better than us and had we held on to our lead vs them in games 2 and 4 and could close them out in 6, we would have stolen that series from them. Even in that case, SAS would have taken us out and even if we somehow got by them (Bynum seems to play great ball against the Spurs) there is no way in hell, we are beating Miami. We lost here where we were supposed to lose.


Fair description. In a perfect world Kobe would've won 2 more chips and finals MVPs. '08 and '11.
People forget about Ariza being hurt in '08. And how Pau was dominant to start the '11 season.
But 3 peats are hard. Mentally as much as physically. It's why Popovich's Spurs, Lebron in Miami, and the recent Warriors couldn't do it either.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:55 pm    Post subject:

I disgaree with most of these narratives because as usual I strongly feel the officials have like most of the hand in this.

In 2011, it was all that JJ Barea nonsense. He was getting all the calls, and the Lakers were gettings screwed. Like other FInals lost, they handcuffed the Lakers and prevented them from doing anything. And then what do people say? Pau disappeared. Dirk couldn't miss. blah blah.

JJ Barea
Leon Powe
Billups

Bare minimum, we were robbed of rings in 2004, 2007, 2010. And we probably were about to get robbed during the Achilles year also. But fortunately for the refs, Kobe's achillles took care of that.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 2:11 pm    Post subject:

The 2011 Lakers were title contenders until the Pau Gasol/Shannon Brown controversy happened.. I don’t think the 2012 Lakers were title contenders.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 2:26 pm    Post subject: Re: In retrospect, were the 2010-2011 and 2011-2012 Lakers ever serious contenders?

CandyCanes wrote:
2010-2011 being Phil's last year with the Lakers as two-time defending champions and 2011-2012 being the Mike Brown year.

Did the Kobe, Pau, Bynum, Odom, Artest, and Fisher core ever stand a real chance of threepeating in 2010-2011? If we hadn't dealt Odom, how about in 2011-2012?

I don't see us beating the HEAT either year even if we had made it to the finals.


Anytime you have a two-time defending champ that is returning with all their pieces, it's a contending team. We won 57 games, which tied for second best in the west and tied for third best in the league. We were 6th on offense and 6th on defense.

That's all "contending" to me. But there are probably at least three or four serious contenders every year, so the typical contending team doesn't win a ring or even get to the finals necessarily.

That said, I am not sure this thread is anything more than a semantics exercise on what "contender" means.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 2:35 pm    Post subject:

SuperboyReformed wrote:
I disgaree with most of these narratives because as usual I strongly feel the officials have like most of the hand in this.

In 2011, it was all that JJ Barea nonsense. He was getting all the calls, and the Lakers were gettings screwed. Like other FInals lost, they handcuffed the Lakers and prevented them from doing anything. And then what do people say? Pau disappeared. Dirk couldn't miss. blah blah.

JJ Barea
Leon Powe
Billups

Bare minimum, we were robbed of rings in 2004, 2007, 2010. And we probably were about to get robbed during the Achilles year also. But fortunately for the refs, Kobe's achillles took care of that.



Dallas swept us 4-0 in 2011, beating us by an average of 14 points a game.

I don't see much of a case for thinking we lost that series on fouls.

Dallas got called for 74 fouls; we got called for 79. We each shot 80 free throws.

JJ only shot 11 free throws over 4 games.

What killed us was 3-point shooting. Dallas shot 46% as a team and we shot -- yikes-- 19%. They outscored us by about 25 points a game on 3s. That was the deathblow -- not fouls.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 6:29 pm    Post subject:

2010-2011 was our better chance of the two years. Pau started off great was even considered for MVP early on. Lamar had his best year as a Laker that year. Thing is come playoff time they were all off. Barnes and Blake were horrible those playoffs which didn’t help either. And of course we know Pau’s struggles. Than running into the Mavs who shot lights out. Had Peja looking like 2004 Peja
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:43 pm    Post subject:

Early on the 2010-11 team looked like they were going to be back in the finals, but that Christmas game against the Heat really exposed how much more athletic and talented the Heat Big 3 was which was the officially sign that the Heat were the overwhelming favorites going forward. The first round against the Hornets badly exposed how old that team was at that point with how much CP3 had his way with the Lakers defense.

The 2011-12 team were a clear tier below both the Spurs & Thunder that year in the West. Lakers had nobody that could guard Durant or Westbrook, and Harden always killed the Lakers that year too. Mike Brown I did give him credit for that zone defense gameplan against the Thunder that exposed the Thunders lack of outside shooting from game 2 on, which the Lakers should have been up 3-1 in the series, but choked away game 2 & game 4.

Once both LeBron & Bosh joined the Heat with Wade to form the Big 3, at the moment the rest of the league was playing for 2nd place come June that year and Lakers just weren't going to be able to compete in a 7 game series against the Heat. Out West you could say the Lakers were contenders, but weren't real title contenders that could realistically beat the Heat Big 3.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:48 pm    Post subject:

I actually thought that 2012 team was better than the 2011 team. Bynum was an absolute force that year, and Kobe was healthier come playoff time.

The Thunder were a terrible match up for us. They were athletic and fast. Lakers were slowing down by that point. Even had the Lakers beat the Thunder and made it to the Finals eventually, the Heat probably would have won.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:52 pm    Post subject:

the 2010-11 team would probably win the championship in a situation like today with limited games and the covid bubble. they had great chemistry coming out and were favs. as the season went on, they started to show major fatigue.

The 2011-12 team was a shell of itself and Mike Brown wasnt a good coach.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:58 am    Post subject:

2011 was the year we could have won.

Kobe being hurt, Pau mentally broken, Blake and Barnes flopped and Mavs being white hot killed us. I don't think Heat was ready at that year. Heat figured their spacing problems out with moving Bosh at 5 in 2012. Bosh was actually first successfull small ball center not Draymond Green.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:53 am    Post subject:

Also in 2011 Phil had cancer. That team was mentally exhausted, for various reasons.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:44 am    Post subject:

danzag wrote:
Also in 2011 Phil had cancer. That team was mentally exhausted, for various reasons.
Forgot about that. Ya that was big also.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:51 am    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
danzag wrote:
Also in 2011 Phil had cancer. That team was mentally exhausted, for various reasons.
Forgot about that. Ya that was big also.


I think Phil was "done." He lost Tex the year before and with the cancer, it felt different. No creative energy. There were multiple times near the end of Phil's last year I said to myself he's lost the team. I'm sure the players were exhausted too. It appeared the whole team was just going through the motions at times.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:33 am    Post subject:

Yeah, everybody was kinda concerned with extra court stuff. No focus. I remember Phil Jackson punching Gasol in the chest to get some fight out of him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8pV2v4wNJs
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:38 am    Post subject:

LakersRGolden wrote:
kikanga wrote:
danzag wrote:
Also in 2011 Phil had cancer. That team was mentally exhausted, for various reasons.
Forgot about that. Ya that was big also.


I think Phil was "done." He lost Tex the year before and with the cancer, it felt different. No creative energy. There were multiple times near the end of Phil's last year I said to myself he's lost the team. I'm sure the players were exhausted too. It appeared the whole team was just going through the motions at times.


Should have gone out on top in 2010.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:57 pm    Post subject:

JPaulK0n wrote:
Early on the 2010-11 team looked like they were going to be back in the finals, but that Christmas game against the Heat really exposed how much more athletic and talented the Heat Big 3 was which was the officially sign that the Heat were the overwhelming favorites going forward. The first round against the Hornets badly exposed how old that team was at that point with how much CP3 had his way with the Lakers defense.

The 2011-12 team were a clear tier below both the Spurs & Thunder that year in the West. Lakers had nobody that could guard Durant or Westbrook, and Harden always killed the Lakers that year too. Mike Brown I did give him credit for that zone defense gameplan against the Thunder that exposed the Thunders lack of outside shooting from game 2 on, which the Lakers should have been up 3-1 in the series, but choked away game 2 & game 4.

Once both LeBron & Bosh joined the Heat with Wade to form the Big 3, at the moment the rest of the league was playing for 2nd place come June that year and Lakers just weren't going to be able to compete in a 7 game series against the Heat. Out West you could say the Lakers were contenders, but weren't real title contenders that could realistically beat the Heat Big 3.


That team had nobody that could guard Jeremy Lin. Lin going off and looking like a dominant scorer against a very old Fisher was so embarrassing.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:08 pm    Post subject:

madsen35 wrote:
I actually thought that 2012 team was better than the 2011 team. Bynum was an absolute force that year, and Kobe was healthier come playoff time.

The Thunder were a terrible match up for us. They were athletic and fast. Lakers were slowing down by that point. Even had the Lakers beat the Thunder and made it to the Finals eventually, the Heat probably would have won.


I don’t think the 2012 team could beat the Spurs either. San Antonio won 19 or 20 games in a row around that time. After the big 3 the team didn’t have anyone else that could score; Odom was a big loss. People forget that one reason the team was willing to dumb so many draft picks for Nash is the point guards were a massive weakness. Fisher was super old, Sessions looked like a total deer in the headlights in the playoffs and Blake was made fun of for the ability to provide zero offense. It was almost like playing 4 on 5 out there. Or 3 on 5 because Artest was tough to watch on offense. He looked totally washed up like Fisher.

The team could never really get much momentum going at any point. Even the first round series with Denver took 7 games and seemed to take something out of the team going into the OKC series. The team nearly lost to the Nuggets after being up 3-1 in the series.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:05 am    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
x75274 wrote:
2010-2011 we had a legit chance in terms of talent. If Pau could get back to his level from the beginning of that season or even the level and grit he showed he showed in the 2010 finals vs Boston, he would have clearly outplayed Bosh. Nowitzki was playing his best ball and Dirk is a better player than Pau so Dirk would have still won that matchup but it would have been nowhere the mismatch it was in 2011. I blame 2011 on Pau. He set the wrong tone even in the New Orleans series and seemed to be in a mental funk that entire playoff run. I remember 2011 as really being the last legit chance we had. Had we been in the mental place of 2010, we would have won that 2011 title with Dallas being the true possible roadblock as they were not a matchup problem for us but they were playing like they were the team of destiny that year with numerous 4th quarter improbable comebacks

2011-2012 we got beat by a better team: Plain and Simple. Thunder were better than us and had we held on to our lead vs them in games 2 and 4 and could close them out in 6, we would have stolen that series from them. Even in that case, SAS would have taken us out and even if we somehow got by them (Bynum seems to play great ball against the Spurs) there is no way in hell, we are beating Miami. We lost here where we were supposed to lose.


Fair description. In a perfect world Kobe would've won 2 more chips and finals MVPs. '08 and '11.
People forget about Ariza being hurt in '08. And how Pau was dominant to start the '11 season.
But 3 peats are hard. Mentally as much as physically. It's why Popovich's Spurs, Lebron in Miami, and the recent Warriors couldn't do it either.


Another thing I am thinking about in the Dallas-Lakers series is that 2 point loss in game one. At the end of the game, Pau sit a good screen for Kobe and he shot a 3 point shoot but it was missed..if he made it, they would have won.

Sometimes the difference of 1 shot like that changes the tide because the Lakers made a come back that game and they were known for this all year. Something similar happened in 2003 against the Spurs were Horry shot rimmed in & out I believe in game 5..than they lose the series..a year earlier his shot went in against the Kings to change that series.

Additionally, Phil Jackson wrote in his book that he had health problems and didn't tell the team till the playoffs..he wasn't sure if that was a distraction..
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:54 am    Post subject:

In retrospect, the 2010-11 Lakers needed a trade to build the team around Pau, LO and Kobe - with Fisher in a lesser role. MWP and Bynum out, for a quicker 3 ball wing and a penetrating point guard. The writing was on the wall, and Jerry West said so. But we kinda stayed loyal to the guys and team that beat Boston (which is fine).

Phils cancer, Kobe not practicing, this all hurt. But come playoffs both Phil and Kobe were 100% engaged to win it all. Phil slaps Pau. You know he wants that win. Odom was having a career year. What we needed was some more potent outside shooting and team speed, which we lacked. I think we would have beaten Miami, as Miami was still not ready to execute at a championship level.

After that year though, would have been tough beating Miami.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:09 pm    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
In retrospect, the 2010-11 Lakers needed a trade to build the team around Pau, LO and Kobe - with Fisher in a lesser role. MWP and Bynum out, for a quicker 3 ball wing and a penetrating point guard. The writing was on the wall, and Jerry West said so. But we kinda stayed loyal to the guys and team that beat Boston (which is fine).

Phils cancer, Kobe not practicing, this all hurt. But come playoffs both Phil and Kobe were 100% engaged to win it all. Phil slaps Pau. You know he wants that win. Odom was having a career year. What we needed was some more potent outside shooting and team speed, which we lacked. I think we would have beaten Miami, as Miami was still not ready to execute at a championship level.

After that year though, would have been tough beating Miami.


Do you think we would have won if we had traded Bynum for Carmelo?

I feel like the first big mistake was signing Artest over Ariza and then not being able to use the MLE on a point guard like Jarrett Jack. Fisher was an average player even in his prime yet the FO kept him as a starter until he was 38. Even HoFers with good longevity like Jason Kidd and Gary Payton were either marginal players or out of the league by 38.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:14 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
I disgaree with most of these narratives because as usual I strongly feel the officials have like most of the hand in this.

In 2011, it was all that JJ Barea nonsense. He was getting all the calls, and the Lakers were gettings screwed. Like other FInals lost, they handcuffed the Lakers and prevented them from doing anything. And then what do people say? Pau disappeared. Dirk couldn't miss. blah blah.

JJ Barea
Leon Powe
Billups

Bare minimum, we were robbed of rings in 2004, 2007, 2010. And we probably were about to get robbed during the Achilles year also. But fortunately for the refs, Kobe's achillles took care of that.



Dallas swept us 4-0 in 2011, beating us by an average of 14 points a game.

I don't see much of a case for thinking we lost that series on fouls.

Dallas got called for 74 fouls; we got called for 79. We each shot 80 free throws.

JJ only shot 11 free throws over 4 games.

What killed us was 3-point shooting. Dallas shot 46% as a team and we shot -- yikes-- 19%. They outscored us by about 25 points a game on 3s. That was the deathblow -- not fouls.

that's a looooot of numbers. It must be scientific.
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