Prior to Kobe and Shaq winning a title, did you think they ever would?
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madsen35
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 2:53 pm    Post subject: Prior to Kobe and Shaq winning a title, did you think they ever would?

Like the title of the thread states, after coming off disappointing conclusions to seasons in 1996-99, did you believe Kobe and Shaq would ever win a title together?

Did Phil's hiring give you confidence they would get it together?
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 2:55 pm    Post subject:

Yes, Shaq was developing into the most dominant player I have ever seen, I always thought that he would lead them to a title.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 3:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Prior to Kobe and Shaq winning a title, did you think they ever would?

madsen35 wrote:
Like the title of the thread states, after coming off disappointing conclusions to seasons in 1996-99, did you believe Kobe and Shaq would ever win a title together?

Did Phil's hiring give you confidence they would get it together?


Sure. It was a 60-win team that got to the western conference finals. There were always contenders. At that point, Shaq was the undisputed guy and Kobe was just a promising sidekick. So I wasn't thinking of Kobe & Shaq winning a title as much as Shaq & company winning a title.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 3:49 pm    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
Yes, Shaq was developing into the most dominant player I have ever seen, I always thought that he would lead them to a title.


I thought getting rid of Del Harris was the key.

I loved Phil Jackson, but I think there were other coaches who could've led Shaq and Kobe to a ring, as well.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:22 pm    Post subject:

Not with Del and in 99 he was gone and we had Rambis. My personal faith in him wasn't any deeper than my initial faith in any other middling coach we've had. No deeper than my faith in Dunleavy is what I'm implying. I gotta have faithuh.

But after we got swept by the Spurs in 99, it was even more bleak than the sweep to Utah in 98 and I was already disgusted by our house of cards collapse in 98 and the whole Cancun! mess, etc. We were called immature bratz, etc. Still have some media mags, that was the prevailing notion, that we weren't gonna win with knuckleheads like NVE and Shaq who rapped and did commercials. Kobe got a fresh batch of the bitterness towards our yutes that was already there before he came along. With Phil, yeah, I thought we'd win a title. And mind you we didn't start the preseason looking that good. Preseason doesn't count, but we looked like crap in the way we ran the tri, forget the outcomes. Then when Shaq showed he was serious and in MVP shape at the start of the season, I had no more worries about our squad's ability to win. Porty was good tho. Maybe better than I thought they were, especially after we took that 2/29/00 gm in their building and they went on the slide, but we won.

I was even more immediately sure we were gonna win a title in 2009 the day we got Pau. I said 2009, meaning that I realized 2008 wasn't that likely with the Smelts having a full year of continuity. I was telling stans at work and some of them who pretended to have an interest in the sport didn't even realize how good he was or who he was. Of course, you and EYE knew, but I'm talking about your typical coworker stan. They never know.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Prior to Kobe and Shaq winning a title, did you think they ever would?

madsen35 wrote:
Like the title of the thread states, after coming off disappointing conclusions to seasons in 1996-99, did you believe Kobe and Shaq would ever win a title together?

Did Phil's hiring give you confidence they would get it together?


Yes, because Kobe was ascending. PJ is a good coach, but one of my pet peeves is hearing how Shaq and Kobe didn't win before PJ. As if an 18 yr old outta high school is supposed to help Shaq win chips right away. He needed time to grow and PJ came at the right time, and took the elevator up with Kobe.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:03 pm    Post subject:

Dr. Laker wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
Yes, Shaq was developing into the most dominant player I have ever seen, I always thought that he would lead them to a title.


I thought getting rid of Del Harris was the key.

I loved Phil Jackson, but I think there were other coaches who could've led Shaq and Kobe to a ring, as well.


Kobe had CIF experience under his belt. I don't think you can blame Del, unless you really believe PJ could win the chip with Shaq, Eddie and Nick as the main core? I dunno...

Oops, I said CIF basketball because we're in California. LOL! So whatever the high school equivalent is called in Pennsylvania.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:10 pm    Post subject:

I believe Shaq was around the same age that Anthony Davis is today when these question marks surrounded the Lakers. A player that dominant and still at that age.. it was too early to count him out. And then you had Kobe of course. It was a matter of time, but that didn’t necessarily make people more patient (including Shaq himself) at that time though.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:14 pm    Post subject:

Phil Jackson happened and immediately after he was hired I thought they would win at least one title.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:49 pm    Post subject:

Once Phil Jackson signed with the Lakers, you could (or he could) say it was a perfect setting for an epiphany.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:17 pm    Post subject:

non-player zealot wrote:
Not with Del and in 99 he was gone and we had Rambis. My personal faith in him wasn't any deeper than my initial faith in any other middling coach we've had. No deeper than my faith in Dunleavy is what I'm implying. I gotta have faithuh.

But after we got swept by the Spurs in 99, it was even more bleak than the sweep to Utah in 98 and I was already disgusted by our house of cards collapse in 98 and the whole Cancun! mess, etc. We were called immature bratz, etc. Still have some media mags, that was the prevailing notion, that we weren't gonna win with knuckleheads like NVE and Shaq who rapped and did commercials. Kobe got a fresh batch of the bitterness towards our yutes that was already there before he came along. With Phil, yeah, I thought we'd win a title. And mind you we didn't start the preseason looking that good. Preseason doesn't count, but we looked like crap in the way we ran the tri, forget the outcomes. Then when Shaq showed he was serious and in MVP shape at the start of the season, I had no more worries about our squad's ability to win. Porty was good tho. Maybe better than I thought they were, especially after we took that 2/29/00 gm in their building and they went on the slide, but we won.

I was even more immediately sure we were gonna win a title in 2009 the day we got Pau. I said 2009, meaning that I realized 2008 wasn't that likely with the Smelts having a full year of continuity. I was telling stans at work and some of them who pretended to have an interest in the sport didn't even realize how good he was or who he was. Of course, you and EYE knew, but I'm talking about your typical coworker stan. They never know.

the way you compare the two is very accurate.
Yes, it wasn't so expected as people are thinking...that first ring. Portland was the real kind of threat that I don't think exists much recently in the WC. And I can say personally that it was kind of surprising there were more than a couple of serious moments where ANY hardcore fan thought it was all over. No less than the Game 7 between the 3rd and 4th quarter. That was a moment that I have to say doesn't exist today and probably hasn't for a very long time. And there were more than a couple of these. The teams now that win basically are coasting the whole time, it's pretty lame TBH.


SO anyway...yes 2009 was much more of a confident, coasting feeling than 2000.

By the way...van exel...the whole Cancun thing is so ridiculous and prove me wrong but I think what happened there is SHaq was jealous of Nick because if you guys remember he was definitely the most popular Laker before Shaq and Kobe, and I think Shaq was a little jealous. He is the one who made a big stink about Cancun. Anyway, just a hunch. Shaq was petty back then.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 10:11 pm    Post subject:

100%
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 10:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Prior to Kobe and Shaq winning a title, did you think they ever would?

activeverb wrote:
madsen35 wrote:
Like the title of the thread states, after coming off disappointing conclusions to seasons in 1996-99, did you believe Kobe and Shaq would ever win a title together?

Did Phil's hiring give you confidence they would get it together?


Sure. It was a 60-win team that got to the western conference finals. There were always contenders. At that point, Shaq was the undisputed guy and Kobe was just a promising sidekick. So I wasn't thinking of Kobe & Shaq winning a title as much as Shaq & company winning a title.


Exactly what I thought as well in 99-00: Shaq and Co.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:47 am    Post subject:

Runway8 wrote:
Dr. Laker wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
Yes, Shaq was developing into the most dominant player I have ever seen, I always thought that he would lead them to a title.


I thought getting rid of Del Harris was the key.

I loved Phil Jackson, but I think there were other coaches who could've led Shaq and Kobe to a ring, as well.


Kobe had CIF experience under his belt. I don't think you can blame Del, unless you really believe PJ could win the chip with Shaq, Eddie and Nick as the main core? I dunno...

Oops, I said CIF basketball because we're in California. LOL! So whatever the high school equivalent is called in Pennsylvania.


PIF. No, j/k. I dunno either. It might be PIF, who knows.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:05 am    Post subject:

SuperboyReformed wrote:


By the way...van exel...the whole Cancun thing is so ridiculous and prove me wrong but I think what happened there is SHaq was jealous of Nick because if you guys remember he was definitely the most popular Laker before Shaq and Kobe, and I think Shaq was a little jealous. He is the one who made a big stink about Cancun. Anyway, just a hunch. Shaq was petty back then.


I gotta differ with you there, Super Dave. A rare occurrence. When we lost in 97 and 98, the great majority of the blame/focus was on Shaq and he was pissed and emo over his umpteenth sweep. Meanwhile, he was practically the only Laker who had a decent series in 98. Nick was horrid, otoh. Then the Cancun! thing topped it. Nick had that wry sense of humor, but it hit the wrong tone for a superstar big who was set to receive all the blame for rapping and softshell taco stuck to hardshell taco ads (remember those?). He was reported to have said, "If you don't wanna win, GTFO my team!" Note in 96 as our season waned in its final seconds, Drexler was at the foul line to seal a HOU victory and Nick stepped into the lane with another Rockets player and gave Clyde a 5. Cancun was reminiscent of that. Just something that's not the best idea in the moment.

And also mind that Nick had a long rap sheet. No one can ever say that West didn't give him a lot of second chances. His relationship with Del was toxic at its worst. When you think back, it's hard to figure West not having a problem with that because their beef started in January of 95, that early. We were in a 46 pt loss at PORT and Nick doesn't walk onto the floor to start the 3rd Qtr as in every game, and Del doesn't ask him WTF and he lets Nick sit. They chalked it up as a "misunderstanding" which was BS. Del let Nick have the claim that he didn't know he was supposed to start the 3rd like always. It was a weird scene, but the first sign of something fishy. (FWIW: the 2 aholes go to Dallas and ONLY THEN do they figure out how to work together in peace).

Shaq might've been jealous towards Kobe, but I don't see it with Nick. To his credit, Shaq wanted to win a title and I think moreso than Nick did. He blubbered and cried after playoff losses past and always played hard in the playoffs and never missed a game that I can remember.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:47 am    Post subject:

Yes.
When Phil came onboard. And Shaq got fit again.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:41 am    Post subject:

I was a bit too young to consider the coaching aspect but I knew they had the talent in '96 and '97.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:53 am    Post subject:

The losses to the Jazz and Spurs in the playoffs leading up to the first title were frustrating but it was obvious the Lakers were hugely talented with the dynamic duo and once they jettisoned Del Harris, the mix was right.

Del Harris wasn't the right guy for that team.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:02 am    Post subject:

I think most Laker fans didn't realize it would happen that fast.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:16 am    Post subject:

I was young, but I remember being excited about Phil Jackson. Like he was the final piece to the puzzle.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:34 am    Post subject:

Yes, the core players were there. It was just finding the right combinations, coaching staff and players maturing.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:40 am    Post subject:

LakerLanny wrote:
The losses to the Jazz and Spurs in the playoffs leading up to the first title were frustrating but it was obvious the Lakers were hugely talented with the dynamic duo and once they jettisoned Del Harris, the mix was right.

Del Harris wasn't the right guy for that team.


I remember how humbling losing to the Jazz 2 years in a row were....
Looking back it was a necessary step in the team's maturation process.
The team needed to experience how to lose to put in the necessary work to reach the mountain top.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:27 pm    Post subject:

I wouldn't say I knew they'd win a ring, but replacing Del Harris was felt positive
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:28 pm    Post subject:

lakersken80 wrote:
Yes, the core players were there. It was just finding the right combinations, coaching staff and players maturing.


Kobe Bryant ascending is the single most important reason. Kobe was 8 pts, then 16 pts, then 19 pts, then 22 pts in 2000. He was going up and on his way to being one of the greatest of all time with or without PJ. The line ups that failed against the Jazz that lead us to PJ included guys like Elden Campbell, Eddie Jones, Nicky V. PJ didn't coach that Lake Show core of the 90's. PJ got Shaq and the rise of Kobe. Without PJ, they probably don't get the chip as early as the did in 2000. But they would eventually with any other top tier coach.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2020 12:50 pm    Post subject:

non-player zealot wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:


By the way...van exel...the whole Cancun thing is so ridiculous and prove me wrong but I think what happened there is SHaq was jealous of Nick because if you guys remember he was definitely the most popular Laker before Shaq and Kobe, and I think Shaq was a little jealous. He is the one who made a big stink about Cancun. Anyway, just a hunch. Shaq was petty back then.


I gotta differ with you there, Super Dave. A rare occurrence. When we lost in 97 and 98, the great majority of the blame/focus was on Shaq and he was pissed and emo over his umpteenth sweep. Meanwhile, he was practically the only Laker who had a decent series in 98. Nick was horrid, otoh. Then the Cancun! thing topped it. Nick had that wry sense of humor, but it hit the wrong tone for a superstar big who was set to receive all the blame for rapping and softshell taco stuck to hardshell taco ads (remember those?). He was reported to have said, "If you don't wanna win, GTFO my team!" Note in 96 as our season waned in its final seconds, Drexler was at the foul line to seal a HOU victory and Nick stepped into the lane with another Rockets player and gave Clyde a 5. Cancun was reminiscent of that. Just something that's not the best idea in the moment.

And also mind that Nick had a long rap sheet. No one can ever say that West didn't give him a lot of second chances. His relationship with Del was toxic at its worst. When you think back, it's hard to figure West not having a problem with that because their beef started in January of 95, that early. We were in a 46 pt loss at PORT and Nick doesn't walk onto the floor to start the 3rd Qtr as in every game, and Del doesn't ask him WTF and he lets Nick sit. They chalked it up as a "misunderstanding" which was BS. Del let Nick have the claim that he didn't know he was supposed to start the 3rd like always. It was a weird scene, but the first sign of something fishy. (FWIW: the 2 aholes go to Dallas and ONLY THEN do they figure out how to work together in peace).

Shaq might've been jealous towards Kobe, but I don't see it with Nick. To his credit, Shaq wanted to win a title and I think moreso than Nick did. He blubbered and cried after playoff losses past and always played hard in the playoffs and never missed a game that I can remember.


These are great points, and i have been dying to have the conversation with someone who actually remembers the details. So thank you.

Yes, all good points, and sounds like you are right.

I guess I'm defensive about the idea that Nick wasn't a competitor or wasn't doing everything he could to win games. That is weird to me as I always saw him as a kobe-like ultra competitor.

Yes Nick had a long rap sheet, very true. It wasn't the Rasheed type of rap sheet though, or Rodman, or Artest, etc. It was just sort of he was a mischievous kid kind of thing. DOn't look up his son....very sad.

Also weird how Del and Nick got along in Dallas.

So Del....I think Del is to blame for at least 60% of all that stuff with the Nick, Eddie, Shaq, Kobe etc. But it's a tough analysis as things were very different at that time. Del should have started Kobe. I don't remember all the details of their beef (Del vs Nick), you reminded me of a couple....but it seemed like an authoritarian thing from Del's part and Nick just wanted to play.

The Cancun thing...yes I think Nick was making a joke at the wrong time, but also not such a big deal as to be taken off the team. But what do I know about those things.

THose Kobe airballs....why was he shooting them when Nick was one the team? That was very odd to me.


Now about that 98 series....I would like a discussion on that....You are saying Shaq was the only one who had a decent series...but I remember being specifically disappointed in Shaq at the time, but I don't remember why. The only reason why I remember is that I made a photoshop thing about Shaq and Kobe with the statemtent like "THe good rise, even in the midst of shadows: or something like that, and I had Shaq sort of shadowed out. But I don't remember why. LOLL... probably got to watch the series again. Where's that thread with all the links? I should show you that photoshop lolllll oh man.
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