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| How many more rings will it take for LeBron to become the GOAT? |
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11% |
[ 6 ] |
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9% |
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14% |
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14% |
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| 5 or more |
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9% |
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| He already is the GOAT. |
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16% |
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| He cannot become the GOAT no matter how many more rings he wins. |
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24% |
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| Total Votes : 54 |
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venturalakersfan
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 Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Inspector Gadget wrote: | | If he wins a title a this year he should absolutely get his Lakers jersey retired with the other Laker greats. |
A trip to the lottery and a title gets your jersey retired? How cheap.
As for the OP, a million because he will never be Kareem.
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RG73
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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| I vote for abandoning the entire concept of GOAT. |
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governator
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Personally, he needs a three-peat starting this season, couple more FMVP, reg MVP don’t matter |
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GTL
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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| RG73 wrote: | | I vote for abandoning the entire concept of GOAT. |
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kikanga
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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3 to pass Kobe. 4 to pass Jordan.
I'm a Lakers fan. Chips matter more than stats.
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h2omike
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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Because he has lost a few, I don’t think he can compete with guys like MJ and Kobe, maybe a tier down with Duncan.
But I will say, give the Lakers a three-peat, then you can have that conversation.
I sort of think Kobe accepted this too, what really matters to the aspiring greats, is to be considered a all time great. Cementing you’re legacy as a champion, coupled with league MVP and among the best all time scorers, that’s the legacy.
When we look back 20 years from now, this will be the first great legacy of the Lakers post Kobe/Pau duo. |
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loslakersss
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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| joeblow wrote: | | loslakersss wrote: | | kwase wrote: | | It's not about wins at this point. 6 losses in the Finals takes him out of the conversation. He's the modern-day Jerry West, and nobody considers him the GOAT even though he was a terrific player. |
Jordan going 1-9 including 2 sweeps in the first round is much worse than losing in the finals. Lebron has never lost a first round series. |
Lol, am I really reading that more wins in the first round >>> more wins in the Finals? |
Not at all. Rather that finals losses shouldn’t be weighed heavier than losses in earlier rounds. Jordan didn’t only play 6 seasons; he lost more often than he won. |
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GOODRICH25
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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| loslakersss wrote: | | kwase wrote: | | It's not about wins at this point. 6 losses in the Finals takes him out of the conversation. He's the modern-day Jerry West, and nobody considers him the GOAT even though he was a terrific player. |
Jordan going 1-9 including 2 sweeps in the first round is much worse than losing in the finals. Lebron has never lost a first round series. |
1st year he was a rookie and next 2 years he faced a team with 5 hall of famers (which is the number of HOF teammates Jordan had in his entire career, including journeymen like Gilmore or Parish). People holding this against Jordan are just being ridiculous
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activeverb
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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| kwase wrote: | | It's not about wins at this point. 6 losses in the Finals takes him out of the conversation. He's the modern-day Jerry West, and nobody considers him the GOAT even though he was a terrific player. |
Everyone on the GOAT short list, except Russell, failed to win a ring many more times than they won a ring.
The difference between the others and Lebron in the years they didn't win is Lebron tended to advance further. He got to the finals and lost, while they lost in earlier rounds.
I don't see how getting knocked out of the playoffs earlier is a point in their favor. |
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loslakersss
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | kwase wrote: | | It's not about wins at this point. 6 losses in the Finals takes him out of the conversation. He's the modern-day Jerry West, and nobody considers him the GOAT even though he was a terrific player. |
Everyone on the GOAT short list, except Russell, failed to win a ring many more times than they won a ring.
The difference between the others and Lebron in the years they didn't win is Lebron tended to advance further. He got to the finals and lost, while they lost in earlier rounds.
I don't see how getting knocked out of the playoffs earlier is a point in their favor. |
Exactly. The only way you can hold it against a player is if their team was clearly better/the favorite and they lost. The Dallas loss fits this criteria but the rest don’t. |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:10 pm Post subject: Re: How many more rings will it take for LeBron to become the GOAT? |
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| CandyCanes wrote: | | Does a ring this year do it? |
I am not a ring counter, and don't have a mathematical formula for GOAT, so there is no specific number of rings that would automatically make Lebron the GOAT in my eyes,
He is very close to the top of the pyramid, though. |
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P.K.
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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About 6 more, he says tongue in cheek
seriously though, he's not gonna pass MJ no matter how many he wins
He's already pretty much consensus top 5, and winning a few more and passing KAJ's scoring record might move him up a spot or 2, but he's not gonna pass MJ at this point in time
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activeverb
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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| loslakersss wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | kwase wrote: | | It's not about wins at this point. 6 losses in the Finals takes him out of the conversation. He's the modern-day Jerry West, and nobody considers him the GOAT even though he was a terrific player. |
Everyone on the GOAT short list, except Russell, failed to win a ring many more times than they won a ring.
The difference between the others and Lebron in the years they didn't win is Lebron tended to advance further. He got to the finals and lost, while they lost in earlier rounds.
I don't see how getting knocked out of the playoffs earlier is a point in their favor. |
Exactly. The only way you can hold it against a player is if their team was clearly better/the favorite and they lost. The Dallas loss fits this criteria but the rest don’t. |
That's reasonable, especially if the team lost primarily because of the star's performance. In Lebron's case, he was outstanding in a lot of those finals loses. In fact, there was even talk of him winning the finals MVP despite losing one year.
The whole reasoning about "finals records" just seems incredibly stupid to me. I think the only people who care about that don't like Lebron and they would just find another reason to discredit him. |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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| dumpaling wrote: | | Inspector Gadget wrote: | | dumpaling wrote: | | Inspector Gadget wrote: | | dumpaling wrote: | | I'll take a prime kobe over prime lebron all day any day. |
Let’s not turn this thread into Kobe vs LeBron, both respect each other and LeBron still brings up Kobe during interviews. |
It's a thread asking about Lebron being the goat... |
He could be the GOAT and also a Laker great  |
Fair enough... I guess I meant my answer was "He cannot become the GOAT no matter how many more rings he wins."
My reasoning is I feel like Kobe is the GOAT, even if Lebron wins more rings. I never felt like the most championships= the GOAT. Championships are a team accomplishment. I do hope Lebron can win 5 more tho lol as long as it's with the Lakers. |
There's two ways to look at this.
What would it take for you personally to consider Lebron the GOAT? Anyone can have any answer they like on that.
What would it take for Lebron to become the consensus GOAT, where more people thought he was the GOAT instead of MJ? This is the more interesting question to me. I don't think it will ever happen. But if he wins a couple of rings and passes Kareem on the all-time scoring list more people will swing to his side of the ledger. |
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GOODRICH25
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | kwase wrote: | | It's not about wins at this point. 6 losses in the Finals takes him out of the conversation. He's the modern-day Jerry West, and nobody considers him the GOAT even though he was a terrific player. |
Everyone on the GOAT short list, except Russell, failed to win a ring many more times than they won a ring.
The difference between the others and Lebron in the years they didn't win is Lebron tended to advance further. He got to the finals and lost, while they lost in earlier rounds.
I don't see how getting knocked out of the playoffs earlier is a point in their favor. |
But he won only 3 in 16, that's worse that majority of the GOAT candidates. And I don't think he went to the finals the most times either
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activeverb
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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| GOODRICH25 wrote: | | But he won only 3 in 16, that's worse that majority of the GOAT candidates. |
That's a completely different argument than the finals record argument.
And it's a complex argument, since a ring is not an individual accomplishment that is the result of only one player's efforts. It's not singles tennis or golf where one person wins or loses on his own.
Depending on the quality of a player's teammates, I might find him winning 2 out of 10 years more impressive than another player winning 3 out of 10 years.
For me, GOAT is neither a mathematical formula nor does it come down to one single thing, like ring count.
Lebron isn't my choice for GOAT, but I can understand the position of the people who think he is. |
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GOODRICH25
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | GOODRICH25 wrote: | | But he won only 3 in 16, that's worse that majority of the GOAT candidates. |
That's a completely different argument than the finals record argument.
And it's a complex argument, since a ring is not an individual accomplishment that is the result of only one player's efforts. It's not singles tennis or golf where one person wins or loses on his own.
Depending on the quality of a player's teammates, I might find him winning 2 out of 10 years more impressive than another player winning 3 out of 10 years.
For me, GOAT is neither a mathematical formula nor does it come down to one single thing, like ring count.
Lebron isn't my choice for GOAT, but I can understand the position of the people who think he is. |
Finals argument without context is stupid, but it does paint a picture if you analyze it. I brought up 3-16 because you said that except for Russell, everyone has a negative record, so even there James doesn't look great. I think if you have a negative record in periods where you had a competitive team, you can't be a GOAT. And James lost more than he won in the period where he did 2010-2018 and now
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PenG_
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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There's really no valid argument to have Lebron outside the top 3, but I won't ever have him above MJ. GOAT to me is about who's the best player, period.
Lebron will lead the NBA in MVP win shares, and likely 2nd in Real MVP shares, which only measures a player's share of 1st place votes (a better reflection of sustained peak rather than number of seasons)
In Lebron's 5 best playoff runs, he put up .295 WS/48 over 3892 minutes (best all time)
In Lebron's 10 best playoff runs, he put up .263 WS/48 over 8049 minutes (best all time) |
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BandwagonLBJhopper
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Not possible. Jordan was just a better player, take everything else out including rings - he was just a more complete basketball player. And I love Lebron but reality is reality. You could make an argument for him against pretty much everyone else in the top 10 though. |
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Cutheon
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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| BandwagonLBJhopper wrote: | | Not possible. Jordan was just a better player, take everything else out including rings - he was just a more complete basketball player. And I love Lebron but reality is reality. You could make an argument for him against pretty much everyone else in the top 10 though. |
Complete is so empty as to mean effectively nothing. There is nothing on the basketball court that MJ could do that LBJ and Kobe could not. Aesthetically, all different players. But in terms of the notion of a "complete" basketball player, MVP-level, All-NBA, all-Defense, superstar wings are as "complete" as they come |
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kwase
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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| lakersfever714 wrote: | One. Because he would have proven that he was the best player on three different teams that won championships. No one has ever done that. When MJ joined the Wizards, he was too washed and couldn't do (bleep).
Yea, I just need one ring from him for Lakers and I'm satisfied because also of what he's done for this franchise. We were going nowhere after 6 consecutive years of not reaching the playoffs even with a bunch of high pick prospects. Then Lebron came and in two short years, we went from competing for draft picks to competing for a championship. The quick turnaround was absolutely unexpected and amazing. So yea, just one championship is enough for me to crown him the absolute GOAT. |
So if Kawhi wins another ring with the clippers does that make him the GOAT? Because that'll be 3 rings with 3 different teams. |
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chrisca91
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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| GOAT. He's the best all around basketball player to ever exist. Simple as. |
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kwase
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="loslakersss"] | activeverb wrote: | | kwase wrote: | | It's not about wins at this point. 6 losses in the Finals takes him out of the conversation. He's the modern-day Jerry West, and nobody considers him the GOAT even though he was a terrific player. |
Everyone on the GOAT short list, except Russell, failed to win a ring many more times than they won a ring.
The difference between the others and Lebron in the years they didn't win is Lebron tended to advance further. He got to the finals and lost, while they lost in earlier rounds.
I don't see how getting knocked out of the playoffs earlier is a point in their favor. |
I'm not understanding what you wrote. Kareem is 6-3, Magic is 5-4, Kobe is 5-2, Duncan is 5-1, MJ is 6-0 Bird is 3-2. Al the GOAT's won more times in the Finals than they lost. If you mean by over the coarse of their career then yes, only Russell. I have no problem saying Bill Russel is the GOAT.
Last edited by kwase on Fri Sep 11, 2020 6:45 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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BandwagonLBJhopper
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Cutheon wrote: | | BandwagonLBJhopper wrote: | | Not possible. Jordan was just a better player, take everything else out including rings - he was just a more complete basketball player. And I love Lebron but reality is reality. You could make an argument for him against pretty much everyone else in the top 10 though. |
Complete is so empty as to mean effectively nothing. There is nothing on the basketball court that MJ could do that LBJ and Kobe could not. Aesthetically, all different players. But in terms of the notion of a "complete" basketball player, MVP-level, All-NBA, all-Defense, superstar wings are as "complete" as they come |
I think both Kobe and Jordan had far more refined post and midrange games and were also better off the ball. Lebron is still effective on the block but he doesn’t have the footwork or array of moves those guys have, and his ball dominant style is a bit less versatile than those guys. FT shooting as well.
Again we are talking about all time greats, LBJ is amazing I’m just saying if I’m picking the GOAT the little stuff is really all that separates them. |
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miggz23
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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| kwase wrote: | | lakersfever714 wrote: | One. Because he would have proven that he was the best player on three different teams that won championships. No one has ever done that. When MJ joined the Wizards, he was too washed and couldn't do (bleep).
Yea, I just need one ring from him for Lakers and I'm satisfied because also of what he's done for this franchise. We were going nowhere after 6 consecutive years of not reaching the playoffs even with a bunch of high pick prospects. Then Lebron came and in two short years, we went from competing for draft picks to competing for a championship. The quick turnaround was absolutely unexpected and amazing. So yea, just one championship is enough for me to crown him the absolute GOAT. |
So if Kawhi wins another ring with the clippers does that make him the GOAT? Because that'll be 3 rings with 3 different teams. |
No... Because Kawhi is lacking on other things. Like career stats, accolades, all time records. Also what separates MJ/Kareem/Lebron are longevity. |
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