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Jesusdelonla
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 Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:58 am Post subject: |
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| CRoost wrote: |
I think there’s a disconnect when it comes to Zo. If a team just let him do what he does best , you have a role player that can have a great impact. For our team, you easily replace Bradley for him and I can see that happening. |
thats what i have been trying to tell. he will replace Avery and thats the only expectation from him |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:59 am Post subject: |
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| Jesusdelonla wrote: | | CRoost wrote: |
I think there’s a disconnect when it comes to Zo. If a team just let him do what he does best , you have a role player that can have a great impact. For our team, you easily replace Bradley for him and I can see that happening. |
thats what i have been trying to tell. he will replace Avery and thats the only expectation from him |
He would be such a super sized elite version of Avery. A 6'6 version who can hit 3s, pass and play defense? 
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kikanga
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| Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:01 am Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: |
Why are you relying on him to be such a scoring option, when that's not his role? But the shots he would take as a Laker, are exactly the ones that are highest percentage, most frequency, and the same shots the current Lakers take?
When was the last time you saw KCP, Danny Green, Kyle Kuzma at the FT line?
In fact, look at the FTr of the current Lakers. Rondo, Kuzma, Green, KCP, etc.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2020.html
Now look at the playoff FTr.
Like, I don't think Zo is going to be a Laker. It gets in the way of a 2021 cap space plan.
But, if you're asking me if there's a better prospect with upside LAL could get without giving up a ton of assets? It's not going to get much better.
Criticizing Zo, about scoring and shot types, which isn't what LAL would rely on him for, doesn't seem to be a big deal when there's basically 5 other guys with relatively similar FTr, 3ptR, etc.
For being on such a losing team, if you count advanced stats, he'd be the 3rd most impactful player by VORP, and 4th by overall BPM, despite his shooting.
We pay Danny Green 15mil. for that kind of impact. So, Zo isn't worth 10? |
Not gonna defend Danny Green. If he was on another team and available for trade. I wouldn't want him either. Caruso at under 3 mill next year, bradley at 5 if he takes the player option is better than paying Lonzo 10+ million a year moving forward.
His limited scoring ability is something I guess we'll just have to disagree on in terms of importance. It's not personal though. I don't care about his dad, or anything off the court. I just can't in good conscious pay 8 figures for a guard with his shooting splits. And I normally don't care about shooting that much. I defend Rondo and Caruso regularly.
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:04 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, no dispute about Zo's lack of shooting prowess inside the 3.
But getting a 6'6 multi positional defender fits with our ethos. Switching on defense, ability to play both point of attack and help/positional defense. I mean I think he would be fantastic on this current Laker team if he was aboard.
Also remember with Avery, he was what, a net "not great" player all season? And that was an improvement from the previous seasons. Will that hold up next year? Who knows.
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lakersfever714
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| Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:11 am Post subject: |
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Oh God, pls no. This will be a test for Rob. If he goes anywhere near Lonzo, then he's a bad GM. Period.
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:11 am Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: |
Why are you relying on him to be such a scoring option, when that's not his role? But the shots he would take as a Laker, are exactly the ones that are highest percentage, most frequency, and the same shots the current Lakers take?
When was the last time you saw KCP, Danny Green, Kyle Kuzma at the FT line?
In fact, look at the FTr of the current Lakers. Rondo, Kuzma, Green, KCP, etc.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2020.html
Now look at the playoff FTr.
Like, I don't think Zo is going to be a Laker. It gets in the way of a 2021 cap space plan.
But, if you're asking me if there's a better prospect with upside LAL could get without giving up a ton of assets? It's not going to get much better.
Criticizing Zo, about scoring and shot types, which isn't what LAL would rely on him for, doesn't seem to be a big deal when there's basically 5 other guys with relatively similar FTr, 3ptR, etc.
For being on such a losing team, if you count advanced stats, he'd be the 3rd most impactful player by VORP, and 4th by overall BPM, despite his shooting.
We pay Danny Green 15mil. for that kind of impact. So, Zo isn't worth 10? |
Not gonna defend Danny Green. If he was on another team and available for trade. I wouldn't want him either. Caruso at under 3 mill next year, bradley at 5 if he takes the player option is better than paying Lonzo 10+ million a year moving forward.
His limited scoring ability is something I guess we'll just have to disagree on in terms of importance. It's not personal though. I don't care about his dad, or anything off the court. I just can't in good conscious pay 8 figures for a guard with his shooting splits. And I normally don't care about shooting that much. I defend Rondo and Caruso regularly. |
Hence my surprise, especially when Zo is basically like having the good version of Rondo/Bradley and Caruso in one.
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kikanga
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| Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:14 am Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: |
Hence my surprise, especially when Zo is basically like having the good version of Rondo and Caruso in one. |
He's one of those players where some GMs wanna play 10+ mill a year and some GMs don't want to touch him with a 10 foot pole. One of the most controversial players in the league.
He's not 3x (in Caruso's case) and 5x (in Rondo's case) better. In Orlando, he was worse than both of them.
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:19 am Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: |
Hence my surprise, especially when Zo is basically like having the good version of Rondo and Caruso in one. |
He's one of those players where some GMs wanna play 10+ mill a year and some GMs don't want to touch him with a 10 foot pole. One of the most controversial players in the league.
He's not 3x (in Caruso's case) and 5x (in Rondo's case) better. In Orlando, he was worse than both of them. |
Yeah we'll differ. Player contracts aren't measured by 3x or 5x the impact to salary.
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kikanga
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| Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:19 am Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: |
Hence my surprise, especially when Zo is basically like having the good version of Rondo and Caruso in one. |
He's one of those players where some GMs wanna play 10+ mill a year and some GMs don't want to touch him with a 10 foot pole. One of the most controversial players in the league.
He's not 3x (in Caruso's case) and 5x (in Rondo's case) better. In Orlando, he was worse than both of them. |
Yeah we'll differ. Player contracts aren't measured by 3x or 5x the impact to salary. |
Do you agree he was worse than both Caruso and Rondo in Orlando?
https://go.nba.com/wzy36
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:24 am Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: |
Hence my surprise, especially when Zo is basically like having the good version of Rondo and Caruso in one. |
He's one of those players where some GMs wanna play 10+ mill a year and some GMs don't want to touch him with a 10 foot pole. One of the most controversial players in the league.
He's not 3x (in Caruso's case) and 5x (in Rondo's case) better. In Orlando, he was worse than both of them. |
Yeah we'll differ. Player contracts aren't measured by 3x or 5x the impact to salary. |
Do you agree he was worse than both Caruso and Rondo in Orlando?
https://go.nba.com/wzy36 |
Yes. But that's what I expect out of a young, non veteran team all looking for 2nd contracts than wins.
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:26 am Post subject: |
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I'm conflicted. On the one hand, I'd warmed up to him by the middle of last season. I can see a lot of potential value in him. On the other hand, he's just an odd player. He is not a "plug and play" guard, because he has a peculiar set of strengths and weaknesses. He has a lot of potential to be the proverbial square peg.
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Lakeshow323
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| Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:29 am Post subject: |
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Ewwwwwwww 
We been dealing with poor shooting all year and now we want a terrible shooter? He is god awful. And let’s not even start with his finishing around the basket...... |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:34 am Post subject: |
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| Lakeshow323 wrote: | Ewwwwwwww
We been dealing with poor shooting all year and now we want a terrible shooter? He is god awful. And let’s not even start with his finishing around the basket...... |
Better 3pt% shooter than Danny Green.
On same volume.
Love it.
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Ksig
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| Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:40 am Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | Lakeshow323 wrote: | Ewwwwwwww
We been dealing with poor shooting all year and now we want a terrible shooter? He is god awful. And let’s not even start with his finishing around the basket...... |
Better 3pt% shooter than Danny Green.
On same volume.
Love it. |
Eh.. he shot marginally better on higher attempts and for one season on a middling team with no expectations where he can do whatever he wants. He would get even fewer shots and even more pressure to perform on this team.
Lonzo crumbled under the pressure in the bubble when things got tight. I dont even like DG so this is weird. |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:42 am Post subject: |
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| Ksig wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | Lakeshow323 wrote: | Ewwwwwwww
We been dealing with poor shooting all year and now we want a terrible shooter? He is god awful. And let’s not even start with his finishing around the basket...... |
Better 3pt% shooter than Danny Green.
On same volume.
Love it. |
Eh.. he shot marginally better on higher attempts and for one season on a middling team with no expectations where he can do whatever he wants. He would get even fewer shots and even more pressure to perform on this team.
Lonzo crumbled under the pressure in the bubble when things got tight. I dont even like DG so this is weird. |
Here's my thing. If you look at the Wins/Losses splits, the TS% is about the same. In fact, the baseline stuff, points, rebs, assists, steals, blocks, all about the same.
Difference is, he was a positive player on a bad team, which is actually a very difficult thing to do.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/balllo01/splits/2020
Contrast that to Danny Green, where BPM/VORP advanced numbers are close/similar, but he's on the #1 team in the West.
Now imagine the kind of impact Zo would actually have on a winning team. If he's rookie level defending Lonzo on 37% arc shooting, he's our 3rd best player.
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lakersfever714
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| Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:44 am Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | Lakeshow323 wrote: | Ewwwwwwww
We been dealing with poor shooting all year and now we want a terrible shooter? He is god awful. And let’s not even start with his finishing around the basket...... |
Better 3pt% shooter than Danny Green.
On same volume.
Love it. |
Danny Green is a career (regular season and playoffs) 40% 3pt shooter. Lonzo is 34%. Difference is night and day. You can't just judge Green on a small sample size of a few playoff games. I'll take Green over Lonzo anyday.
I'd leave Lonzo open before I'd leave anyone else open. And no, I would not even give up THT for Lonzo.
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Last edited by lakersfever714 on Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:46 am; edited 1 time in total |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:46 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | I'm conflicted. On the one hand, I'd warmed up to him by the middle of last season. I can see a lot of potential value in him. On the other hand, he's just an odd player. He is not a "plug and play" guard, because he has a peculiar set of strengths and weaknesses. He has a lot of potential to be the proverbial square peg. |
I think of him as a Draymond Green version for guards.
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:49 am Post subject: |
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| lakersfever714 wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | Lakeshow323 wrote: | Ewwwwwwww
We been dealing with poor shooting all year and now we want a terrible shooter? He is god awful. And let’s not even start with his finishing around the basket...... |
Better 3pt% shooter than Danny Green.
On same volume.
Love it. |
Danny Green is a career (regular season and playoffs) 40% 3pt shooter. Lonzo is 34%. Difference is night and day. You can't just judge Green on a small sample size of a few playoff games. I'll take Green over Lonzo anyday.
I'd leave Lonzo open before I'd leave anyone else open. And no, I would not even give up THT for Lonzo. |
Why are we referring to career shooting when Lonzo has only had 1 year on a completely changed form?
I absolutely take recent years because it takes into consideration age, current system played, etc.
Danny Green has had the gift of excellent offensive systems with the Spurs and Toronto. It really shouldn't be a surprise that his 3pt shooting has gone down with the Lakers. Not exactly the pinnacle of offensive set excellence.
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Last edited by Mike@LG on Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:50 am; edited 1 time in total |
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AFireInside619
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| Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:50 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | I'm conflicted. On the one hand, I'd warmed up to him by the middle of last season. I can see a lot of potential value in him. On the other hand, he's just an odd player. He is not a "plug and play" guard, because he has a peculiar set of strengths and weaknesses. He has a lot of potential to be the proverbial square peg. |
I think of him as a Draymond Green version for guards. |
Mini Lebron. Too bad he can’t take it to the rim. Only thing holding him back. And his defense was abysmal with the Pels. Just like their whole team.
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:51 am Post subject: |
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| AFireInside619 wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | I'm conflicted. On the one hand, I'd warmed up to him by the middle of last season. I can see a lot of potential value in him. On the other hand, he's just an odd player. He is not a "plug and play" guard, because he has a peculiar set of strengths and weaknesses. He has a lot of potential to be the proverbial square peg. |
I think of him as a Draymond Green version for guards. |
Mini Lebron. Too bad he can’t take it to the rim. Only thing holding him back. And his defense was abysmal with the Pels. Just like their whole team. |
As we learned with BI, it's actually fixable.
You know where my intrigue is?
Kuzma became an impact defender and helpful offensive player in the playoffs after the break. I see a lot of Phil Handy's work on that footwork/post Iso shot creation opportunities.
Imagine what he could do with Lonzo Ball.
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Baron Von Humongous
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| Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:52 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | I'm conflicted. On the one hand, I'd warmed up to him by the middle of last season. I can see a lot of potential value in him. On the other hand, he's just an odd player. He is not a "plug and play" guard, because he has a peculiar set of strengths and weaknesses. He has a lot of potential to be the proverbial square peg. |
I think of him as a Draymond Green version for guards. |
It's just hard to be as impactful on defense as a guard plus Draymond is an elite defender while Lonzo is merely good.
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:53 am Post subject: |
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| Baron Von Humongous wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | I'm conflicted. On the one hand, I'd warmed up to him by the middle of last season. I can see a lot of potential value in him. On the other hand, he's just an odd player. He is not a "plug and play" guard, because he has a peculiar set of strengths and weaknesses. He has a lot of potential to be the proverbial square peg. |
I think of him as a Draymond Green version for guards. |
It's just hard to be as impactful on defense as a guard plus Draymond is an elite defender while Lonzo is merely good. |
He hasn't been the same defender since his rookie year. Both he and Josh Hart (on a lesser level) were doing bigman things at the guard spot, which is basically impossible to find.
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:55 am Post subject: |
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Zo/Caruso/Kuz/LBJ/AD
That might be an amazingly versatile defensive lineup with enough offense.
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lakersfever714
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| Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:56 am Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | lakersfever714 wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | Lakeshow323 wrote: | Ewwwwwwww
We been dealing with poor shooting all year and now we want a terrible shooter? He is god awful. And let’s not even start with his finishing around the basket...... |
Better 3pt% shooter than Danny Green.
On same volume.
Love it. |
Danny Green is a career (regular season and playoffs) 40% 3pt shooter. Lonzo is 34%. Difference is night and day. You can't just judge Green on a small sample size of a few playoff games. I'll take Green over Lonzo anyday.
I'd leave Lonzo open before I'd leave anyone else open. And no, I would not even give up THT for Lonzo. |
Why are we referring to career shooting when Lonzo has only had 1 year on a completely changed form?
I absolutely take recent years because it takes into consideration age, current system played, etc.
Danny Green has had the gift of excellent offensive systems with the Spurs and Toronto. It really shouldn't be a surprise that his 3pt shooting has gone down with the Lakers. Not exactly the pinnacle of offensive set excellence. |
I've never been a fan of changing form. If shooting the basketball was that easy, there'd be a lot more NBA players. I haven't seen Lonzo play this year but he shot 37.5% from three this season, which is a big improvement from previous two seasons but that doesn't mean much, especially just one season.
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:59 am Post subject: |
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| lakersfever714 wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | lakersfever714 wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | Lakeshow323 wrote: | Ewwwwwwww
We been dealing with poor shooting all year and now we want a terrible shooter? He is god awful. And let’s not even start with his finishing around the basket...... |
Better 3pt% shooter than Danny Green.
On same volume.
Love it. |
Danny Green is a career (regular season and playoffs) 40% 3pt shooter. Lonzo is 34%. Difference is night and day. You can't just judge Green on a small sample size of a few playoff games. I'll take Green over Lonzo anyday.
I'd leave Lonzo open before I'd leave anyone else open. And no, I would not even give up THT for Lonzo. |
Why are we referring to career shooting when Lonzo has only had 1 year on a completely changed form?
I absolutely take recent years because it takes into consideration age, current system played, etc.
Danny Green has had the gift of excellent offensive systems with the Spurs and Toronto. It really shouldn't be a surprise that his 3pt shooting has gone down with the Lakers. Not exactly the pinnacle of offensive set excellence. |
I've never been a fan of changing form. If shooting the basketball was that easy, there'd be a lot more NBA players. I haven't seen Lonzo play this year but he shot 37.5% from three this season, which is a big improvement from previous two seasons but that doesn't mean much, especially just one season. |
So, you're not a fan of Kuzma changing his form?
It's a lot more of a norm in the NBA than you think. Even Curry changed his. Klay changed his in college.
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