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ChickenStu
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Joined: 25 Apr 2015
Posts: 31912
Location: Anaheim, CA
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 Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 12:53 am Post subject: |
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| AFireInside619 wrote: | | unleasHell wrote: | | KobeGOATMambaRIP wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | The Zubac trade was terrible, Magic was terrible. |
Unfortunately he's like legendary terrible. Still can' believe he missed Tatum on the draft. |
Magic picked Horton right? |
Nope. Magic left during the last game of the season. The draft occurs after the finals.
I’m still not convinced Tucker wasn’t just a Klutch tax, but looks like this one might pay off. |
THT was actually a favorite of the draftnik community, as several reputable sites/analysts had him ranked well inside the top 30 prospects. I'm guessing many teams were turned off by his body type. But the skills package was there, as was the extreme youth. I loved the pick right away. Usually don't find that type of upside well into the 2nd Round. |
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ThePageDude
Star Player
Joined: 25 Jul 2002
Posts: 2573
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| Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 4:23 am Post subject: |
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| epic_ wrote: | | Dr. Laker wrote: | | KOBE WAN wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | The Zubac trade was terrible, Magic was terrible. |
I rennet it being a salary dump since we’d have to pay him on His next contract. So we dunked him to have the cap space to sign AD |
This.
Zu has upside, but we needed the salary space. Moreover, we basically got Zubac's 8.3/7.5/0.9 in 18 minutes with Dwight's 7.5/7.3/1.1 in 19 minutes . . . at a $4,000,000.00 discount.
Imagine if the genius Clippers had signed Dwight this past summer. They might still be playing. |
If this is all true, then that was a pretty nice move.
What are people complaining about then? |
Because the two moves were independent and thus need to be judged independently - a right doesn't turn a previous wrong into a right. |
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waterman40
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Joined: 17 Jun 2003
Posts: 6284
Location: Central Coast
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| Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 5:03 am Post subject: |
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So many of the moves to put the youth on the dumpster the past few years have been about acquiring a star, then a second star, and even trying to get a third star. I liked several of the young draft picks we have had over the past several years, some more than others, but since Kobe we haven't really grown many of our own long term stars for a playoff run.
And with every painful move, like letting Zubac go to the Clippers, there has been guys like Kuzma and THT we have picked up outside the lottery. There are guys like Howard and Rondo which seemed quite questionable, but in the playoffs, have proved even some of the smartest LGers were wrong in their assessments. I've (bleep) about Danny Green as much as anyone on this board, and behold he has had like three descent games in a row in the playoffs! Hope I continue to be proved wrong.
The front office of the Lakers has done much better than almost every franchise, going back to the days of Sharman, West, Kupchak, Magic (gulp), and now Perlinka. More hits than misses, and we are relevant again for the first time since Kobe tore his Achilles.
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governator
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Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 25077
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| Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 5:37 am Post subject: |
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| waterman40 wrote: | So many of the moves to put the youth on the dumpster the past few years have been about acquiring a star, then a second star, and even trying to get a third star. I liked several of the young draft picks we have had over the past several years, some more than others, but since Kobe we haven't really grown many of our own long term stars for a playoff run.
And with every painful move, like letting Zubac go to the Clippers, there has been guys like Kuzma and THT we have picked up outside the lottery. There are guys like Howard and Rondo which seemed quite questionable, but in the playoffs, have proved even some of the smartest LGers were wrong in their assessments. I've (bleep) about Danny Green as much as anyone on this board, and behold he has had like three descent games in a row in the playoffs! Hope I continue to be proved wrong.
The front office of the Lakers has done much better than almost every franchise, going back to the days of Sharman, West, Kupchak, Magic (gulp), and now Perlinka. More hits than misses, and we are relevant again for the first time since Kobe tore his Achilles. |
Mostly agree, outside of BI everybody else are replacable
Ball - Bradley/Rondo/Caruso
Hart - KCP/DG
Randle - Morris is better fit
Zubac - Dwight/McGee
Svi - KCP/DG/Dudley/Cook
Dlo - could've been 3rd option but would get limited touches ala Kuzma |
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Bol
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Joined: 24 Jun 2005
Posts: 4045
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| Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 7:22 am Post subject: |
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| The team is built for speed, Zu would've been a poor fit. |
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governator
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| Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 7:34 am Post subject: |
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| Bol wrote: | | The team is built for speed, Zu would've been a poor fit. |
I think the problem was the return asset, sold him cheap |
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Bol
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Joined: 24 Jun 2005
Posts: 4045
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| Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 7:53 am Post subject: |
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| governator wrote: | | Bol wrote: | | The team is built for speed, Zu would've been a poor fit. |
I think the problem was the return asset, sold him cheap |
Fair point. But I'm not sure how much value a guy like Zu really has in today's league. Seems like the most desirable attributes for centers are 3 point range/spacing, ability to come out and defend on the perimeter, and rim protection. Zu's only got the rim protection and he's not that great at it. He's definitely better than Mike Muscala though, can't argue that. |
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ThePageDude
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Joined: 25 Jul 2002
Posts: 2573
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| Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 8:44 am Post subject: |
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| Bol wrote: | | governator wrote: | | Bol wrote: | | The team is built for speed, Zu would've been a poor fit. |
I think the problem was the return asset, sold him cheap |
Fair point. But I'm not sure how much value a guy like Zu really has in today's league. Seems like the most desirable attributes for centers are 3 point range/spacing, ability to come out and defend on the perimeter, and rim protection. Zu's only got the rim protection and he's not that great at it. He's definitely better than Mike Muscala though, can't argue that. |
There's the matter of that 2nd round pick (and Beasley) being part of the deal.
There's also the matter of doing something, anything to further the goals of the very organization that tries to stomps on and mock the Lakers every chance they get. |
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epic_
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Joined: 23 Jan 2020
Posts: 11310
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| Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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| ThePageDude wrote: | | epic_ wrote: | | Dr. Laker wrote: | | KOBE WAN wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | The Zubac trade was terrible, Magic was terrible. |
I rennet it being a salary dump since we’d have to pay him on His next contract. So we dunked him to have the cap space to sign AD |
This.
Zu has upside, but we needed the salary space. Moreover, we basically got Zubac's 8.3/7.5/0.9 in 18 minutes with Dwight's 7.5/7.3/1.1 in 19 minutes . . . at a $4,000,000.00 discount.
Imagine if the genius Clippers had signed Dwight this past summer. They might still be playing. |
If this is all true, then that was a pretty nice move.
What are people complaining about then? |
Because the two moves were independent and thus need to be judged independently - a right doesn't turn a previous wrong into a right. |
It's cool. We just disagree on value of Zu.
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hype
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Joined: 19 Nov 2007
Posts: 4372
Location: Lake Nacimiento
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| Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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| epic_ wrote: | | ThePageDude wrote: | | epic_ wrote: | | Dr. Laker wrote: | | KOBE WAN wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | The Zubac trade was terrible, Magic was terrible. |
I rennet it being a salary dump since we’d have to pay him on His next contract. So we dunked him to have the cap space to sign AD |
This.
Zu has upside, but we needed the salary space. Moreover, we basically got Zubac's 8.3/7.5/0.9 in 18 minutes with Dwight's 7.5/7.3/1.1 in 19 minutes . . . at a $4,000,000.00 discount.
Imagine if the genius Clippers had signed Dwight this past summer. They might still be playing. |
If this is all true, then that was a pretty nice move.
What are people complaining about then? |
Because the two moves were independent and thus need to be judged independently - a right doesn't turn a previous wrong into a right. |
It's cool. We just disagree on value of Zu. |
I hated to see Zu go for hardly anything but he's not worth worrying much about imo. We also shredded his salary in the hopes of getting that third star. I feel like if the Lakers gave Zu that same contract the Clippers did there'd be a ton of fans saying we overpaid him. I def. wouldnt want him on that contract tbh. He is still young and has some upside so we'll see how he looks next season. He's not a good fit at all with our current roster though considering even McGee is hardly getting time. |
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ThePageDude
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Joined: 25 Jul 2002
Posts: 2573
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:36 am Post subject: |
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| hype wrote: |
I hated to see Zu go for hardly anything but he's not worth worrying much about imo. We also shredded his salary in the hopes of getting that third star. I feel like if the Lakers gave Zu that same contract the Clippers did there'd be a ton of fans saying we overpaid him. I def. wouldnt want him on that contract tbh. He is still young and has some upside so we'll see how he looks next season. He's not a good fit at all with our current roster though considering even McGee is hardly getting time. |
The question isn't whether Zu should have been retained or is a good player.
Let's agree that he's a mediocre player and wasn't a good fit for the Lakers. Fine.
The question is:
* what were the goals?
* did the trade address the goals AT THAT TIME (not even in hindsight)
* did the timing of the trade make sense?
Rather than duplicate the analysis, see the following link:
https://bit.ly/3mExXWh |
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wolfpaclaker
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Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 58336
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:49 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | The Zubac trade was terrible, Magic was terrible. |
Trading for floor spaciing for a slow 7 footer that was not in the core plans, is not a bad idea. They were looking for someone who could do what Morris is doing for the Lakers right now.
I never got the Zubac love.
I much rather have McGee, Dwight and AD at the 5, even Morris sliding as a small ball 5 than Zubac. Even McGee as limited as he is, he is a guy that plays off the ball above the rim, and his size-athleticism is really intimidating when paired with AD.
Zubac is a pretty slow guy, he is not built for a team that has Lebron James and a team that was on the verge (or planning to) trade for AD. Its all about the parts and Zubac didn't fit around AD-Lebron. Muscala (I think that is who we got) was a stretch 4 that could help Lebron (and possibly AD in the future) space out the floor. It was not a bad idea, IMO. We needed that floor spacing more than we needed size, especially knowing that it was only a matter of time before we land AD.
Now letting Thomas Bryant, and Svi go, for what they did. those were boneheaded moves by Magic-Rob. Hopefully Rob doesn't make the same mistakes. I was much more bummed about losing Svi and (while I was not bummed when we let him go) watching Bryant become a solid role player in the NBA was tough. |
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defense
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Joined: 12 Jan 2010
Posts: 39447
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2020 6:29 am Post subject: |
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It pleases me to see VLF so saltly
All he has left is to wine about an insignificant trade |
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ThePageDude
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Joined: 25 Jul 2002
Posts: 2573
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:32 am Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | The Zubac trade was terrible, Magic was terrible. |
Trading for floor spaciing for a slow 7 footer that was not in the core plans, is not a bad idea. They were looking for someone who could do what Morris is doing for the Lakers right now.
<snip>
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Again, the trade is NOT bad because Zubac was traded. The trade is bad because of what they got back, how much they gave up, and whether they even had reasonable/rational expectations of Muscala.
Muscala had been shooting .337 from 3 that year. Muscala was a bench-riding 15 min/game player on pathetic teams who is not even in the league any more!
There is little equivalence between the Morris situation and the Muscala situation. Morris was a BRILLIANT acquisition. He came into a positive situation, a stable culture, with near-0 expectations - and could slowly integrate through the regular season - he was NOT needed for the regular season.
Contrast that with *that* near-500 team with less than 2 months to go in the regular season, and on a downward trajectory. Muscala was a last-ditch hail-mary to try to make the playoffs as in "hey at least we tried" - it's telling that Magic made the call to the Clippers and not Pelinka ... |
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Dr. Laker
Franchise Player
Joined: 12 Apr 2002
Posts: 17104
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:52 am Post subject: |
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| ThePageDude wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | The Zubac trade was terrible, Magic was terrible. |
Trading for floor spaciing for a slow 7 footer that was not in the core plans, is not a bad idea. They were looking for someone who could do what Morris is doing for the Lakers right now.
<snip>
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Again, the trade is NOT bad because Zubac was traded. The trade is bad because of what they got back, how much they gave up, and whether they even had reasonable/rational expectations of Muscala.
Muscala had been shooting .337 from 3 that year. Muscala was a bench-riding 15 min/game player on pathetic teams who is not even in the league any more!
There is little equivalence between the Morris situation and the Muscala situation. Morris was a BRILLIANT acquisition. He came into a positive situation, a stable culture, with near-0 expectations - and could slowly integrate through the regular season - he was NOT needed for the regular season.
Contrast that with *that* near-500 team with less than 2 months to go in the regular season, and on a downward trajectory. Muscala was a last-ditch hail-mary to try to make the playoffs as in "hey at least we tried" - it's telling that Magic made the call to the Clippers and not Pelinka ... |
You missed the point.
Trading Zu was about creating cap space for AD plus Kawhi. What we got back was cap flexibility. Muscala, etc., was important only in that, by rule, we had to take back something.
Even though we didn't get Kawhi, having the space allowed us to put a team around LeBron and AD.
Right now, Pelinka has scoreboard.
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On Lakersground, a concern troll is someone who is a fan of another team, but pretends to be a Lakers fan with "concerns". |
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ThePageDude
Star Player
Joined: 25 Jul 2002
Posts: 2573
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:13 am Post subject: |
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| Dr. Laker wrote: |
You missed the point.
Trading Zu was about creating cap space for AD plus Kawhi. What we got back was cap flexibility. Muscala, etc., was important only in that, by rule, we had to take back something.
Even though we didn't get Kawhi, having the space allowed us to put a team around LeBron and AD.
Right now, Pelinka has scoreboard. |
Sorry, I didn't miss any point. Here are the facts:
* Zubac was a RFA
* Zubac's cap-hold was $2 million. An empty roster spot cap-hold is $1 million. So Zubac's NET impact on cap-space was $1 million
* Zubac was traded in February, meanwhile free-agency did not start until July.
Therefore:
* the Lakers could have carried Zubac PAST ALL early July free-agent signings with just an impact of $ 1 million on their cap space. RFA's signings are not due until later in July. (Not saying they should have done that, all I'm saying is that they *could* have if they wanted to)
* IF the $1 million became material (say Kwahi's camp wanted that extra $1 milion) - Zubac could trivially have been renounced as late as 5:59 pm June 30, making him a UFA.
* OR the Lakers could have found a different trade in February, or March, or April, or May, or June - again with NO impact to the cap-space per what I said above. |
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epic_
Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Jan 2020
Posts: 11310
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:32 am Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | The Zubac trade was terrible, Magic was terrible. |
Trading for floor spaciing for a slow 7 footer that was not in the core plans, is not a bad idea. They were looking for someone who could do what Morris is doing for the Lakers right now.
I never got the Zubac love.
I much rather have McGee, Dwight and AD at the 5, even Morris sliding as a small ball 5 than Zubac. Even McGee as limited as he is, he is a guy that plays off the ball above the rim, and his size-athleticism is really intimidating when paired with AD.
Zubac is a pretty slow guy, he is not built for a team that has Lebron James and a team that was on the verge (or planning to) trade for AD. Its all about the parts and Zubac didn't fit around AD-Lebron. Muscala (I think that is who we got) was a stretch 4 that could help Lebron (and possibly AD in the future) space out the floor. It was not a bad idea, IMO. We needed that floor spacing more than we needed size, especially knowing that it was only a matter of time before we land AD.
Now letting Thomas Bryant, and Svi go, for what they did. those were boneheaded moves by Magic-Rob. Hopefully Rob doesn't make the same mistakes. I was much more bummed about losing Svi and (while I was not bummed when we let him go) watching Bryant become a solid role player in the NBA was tough. |
I agree w/ you.
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