Did Jerry West Screw The Clippers?
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:06 am    Post subject: Re: Did Jerry West Screw The Clippers?

Megaton wrote:
Gave up 5 first round picks, SGA and Gallo for a guy that made less FGs than that in Game 7, Kawhi and Pandemic P now with one year left on their contracts before they split, and Harrell is a FA who’s gonna command a lot of money. Doc Rivers likely ain’t gonna get fired despite his choking coaching history so Zubac will never get starting minutes like he should, and Lou Will is unplayable in the playoffs.

For a guy that will likely be touted as one of the best executives in NBA history, he sure pulled a stinker for the Clippers in his likely last front office job.

Sam Presti is looking like a god right now with all those picks from the Rockets and Clippers though.



I disagree. West put together a contending team. That’s all you can expect a GM to do.

As far as Sam Presti, the perception of GMs as "gods" or incompetent fluctuates depending on the moment. He's a "god" now because of all those picks; if those picks don't turn into anything, he'll be drummed out of town.

I
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:31 am    Post subject: Re: Did Jerry West Screw The Clippers?

activeverb wrote:
Megaton wrote:
Gave up 5 first round picks, SGA and Gallo for a guy that made less FGs than that in Game 7, Kawhi and Pandemic P now with one year left on their contracts before they split, and Harrell is a FA who’s gonna command a lot of money. Doc Rivers likely ain’t gonna get fired despite his choking coaching history so Zubac will never get starting minutes like he should, and Lou Will is unplayable in the playoffs.

For a guy that will likely be touted as one of the best executives in NBA history, he sure pulled a stinker for the Clippers in his likely last front office job.

Sam Presti is looking like a god right now with all those picks from the Rockets and Clippers though.



I disagree. West put together a contending team. That’s all you can expect a GM to do.

As far as Sam Presti, the perception of GMs as "gods" or incompetent fluctuates depending on the moment. He's a "god" now because of all those picks; if those picks don't turn into anything, he'll be drummed out of town.



Did he? Lawrence Frank was the architect, according to Doc:

https://clutchpoints.com/clippers-news-doc-rivers-calls-lawrence-frank-the-hero-of-las-offseason/

I think West is just a name on the masthead, like at a multinational law firm that brings in "senior partners" for the value of their name - they get a big check and very little say so.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:39 am    Post subject:

4th Quarter Playoffs -

Kawhi : 486 points (Career) 124 games
Kobe : 524 points (Playoffs 08-10) 67 games
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:46 am    Post subject:

Yes.
Kawhi is past his peak (broken down body you have to load manage) and PG13 hasn't been dependable in the playoffs since he left Indiana. There's a chance Trez will leave for nothing this offseason. Morris is probably gone as well. And they have no good draft picks for 1/2 a decade.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:50 am    Post subject: Re: Did Jerry West Screw The Clippers?

Dr. Laker wrote:
activeverb wrote:
Megaton wrote:
Gave up 5 first round picks, SGA and Gallo for a guy that made less FGs than that in Game 7, Kawhi and Pandemic P now with one year left on their contracts before they split, and Harrell is a FA who’s gonna command a lot of money. Doc Rivers likely ain’t gonna get fired despite his choking coaching history so Zubac will never get starting minutes like he should, and Lou Will is unplayable in the playoffs.

For a guy that will likely be touted as one of the best executives in NBA history, he sure pulled a stinker for the Clippers in his likely last front office job.

Sam Presti is looking like a god right now with all those picks from the Rockets and Clippers though.



I disagree. West put together a contending team. That’s all you can expect a GM to do.

As far as Sam Presti, the perception of GMs as "gods" or incompetent fluctuates depending on the moment. He's a "god" now because of all those picks; if those picks don't turn into anything, he'll be drummed out of town.



Did he? Lawrence Frank was the architect, according to Doc:

https://clutchpoints.com/clippers-news-doc-rivers-calls-lawrence-frank-the-hero-of-las-offseason/

I think West is just a name on the masthead, like at a multinational law firm that brings in "senior partners" for the value of their name - they get a big check and very little say so.


You have to go back to the beginning when he convinced Griffin to resigned then unload him when he felt he’s not the player then rebuild that team quickly. It only look took him a year to rebuild a team that eventually made the playoff and good enough to entice Kawhi. I don’t think Frank have that vision to trade Griffin who look like a superstar and MVP candidate around the time of the trade.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:07 am    Post subject:

GTL wrote:
4th Quarter Playoffs -

Kawhi : 486 points (Career) 124 games
Kobe : 524 points (Playoffs 08-10) 67 games


That Kobe was better than Lebron at that time especially in playoff time and was rightly recognized as the best player in the world other than hardcore Lebron stans like Nick Wright. Had these two matched up in the Finals during any of these years - hell even include 2011, I would have stuck Kobe on Lebron and tell Kobe to get inside Bron's head, challenge him and give him the space to shoot. Always got the sense that Bron was really susceptible to Kobe's head games at this time - I think later they had even had a story about the head games Kobe did to Bron during the Olympics (2008) and I realized my gut was right the whole time in terms of what Kobe would do to Bron
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:30 am    Post subject:

1995Lakers wrote:
Jerry West>>>>>>Jeanie Buss

1. A.C. Green
2. Vlade Divac
3. Elden Campbell
4. Ceballos for Horry
5. Nick Van Exel
6. The trade dump of Lynch and Peeler to free up cap space and letting Vancouver be the suckers
7. Trade with Charlotte for Kobe
8. Derek Fisher
9. Blocking the Tarpley/Aguirre for Worthy trade
10. Nixon for Scott

these were all West


and by those same metrics, Sharman >>>>>>> West (as another poster eloquently said earlier: with a "Rolls Royce" thrown in for good measure)
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:06 pm    Post subject:

lakerdynasty5.0 wrote:
1995Lakers wrote:
Jerry West>>>>>>Jeanie Buss

1. A.C. Green
2. Vlade Divac
3. Elden Campbell
4. Ceballos for Horry
5. Nick Van Exel
6. The trade dump of Lynch and Peeler to free up cap space and letting Vancouver be the suckers
7. Trade with Charlotte for Kobe
8. Derek Fisher
9. Blocking the Tarpley/Aguirre for Worthy trade
10. Nixon for Scott

these were all West


and by those same metrics, Sharman >>>>>>> West (as another poster eloquently said earlier: with a "Rolls Royce" thrown in for good measure)


You wont get any complaints out of me about Sharman. That old Leprechaun became a real Laker (like Rick Fox) and gelled a supremely talented team into the best versions of themselves as a coach with Wilt and West and set up the Showtime dynasty. The drafting of Nixon where he was selected, putting together the Kareem trade, obtaining the draft pick for Worthy - swapping a lowly first round pick in the current year to bet on a team he thought would suck and give a higher draft pick later, and of course letting aging Goodrich walk that ended up being Magic Johnson (although its hard to credit this one - more like a fluky good luck than real foresight)
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:10 pm    Post subject:

Bol wrote:
If you take credit when things go right, you should take blame when things go wrong. I didn't credit West much for building this Clipper team, so I'm not going to blame him much now. But if people were praising him for building it, and I believe there was at least one such poster on this forum, they should be fair and acknowledge his failure now. The talent was there, but there were problems with chemistry both from a basketball and personality standpoint.


This was perfect.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Did Jerry West Screw The Clippers?

Dr. Laker wrote:
Did he? Lawrence Frank was the architect, according to Doc:

https://clutchpoints.com/clippers-news-doc-rivers-calls-lawrence-frank-the-hero-of-las-offseason/

I think West is just a name on the masthead, like at a multinational law firm that brings in "senior partners" for the value of their name - they get a big check and very little say so.


If that's the case, it pretty well refutes the OP's argument. And, in fact, I suspect that you're right.

The Clippers put together a strong roster of players. They didn't mesh, and they lost. Now the Clippers may blow it up, which makes sense if the problems are chemistry related.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Did Jerry West Screw The Clippers?

Megaton wrote:
Gave up 5 first round picks, SGA and Gallo for a guy that made less FGs than that in Game 7, Kawhi and Pandemic P now with one year left on their contracts before they split, and Harrell is a FA who’s gonna command a lot of money. Doc Rivers likely ain’t gonna get fired despite his choking coaching history so Zubac will never get starting minutes like he should, and Lou Will is unplayable in the playoffs.

For a guy that will likely be touted as one of the best executives in NBA history, he sure pulled a stinker for the Clippers in his likely last front office job.

Sam Presti is looking like a god right now with all those picks from the Rockets and Clippers though.


The answer is no because Jerry West didn’t make those moves.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:29 pm    Post subject:

Dr. Laker wrote:
AFireInside619 wrote:
Some don’t seem to get it. The reason I’m guessing OP made this thread is because Jerry West gets the positive credit for everything his name has been attached to. But he never gets the blame. Kind of a “Golden Boy” who can do no wrong. People give him credit without knowing his level of involvement. He absolutely can deserve the blame as well.

Where was he to block the PG trade like when he blocked the trade for Kevin Love?


Thou shalt not criticize St. West.


At least have the intelligence to understand what his position is with the Clippers. He isn’t a GM, he isn’t an executive, he doesn’t make trades or sign FAs. What a train wreck of a thread.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:36 pm    Post subject:

Can't blame Jerry for this one.
If there was No Jerry West convincing Kawhi and PG to come to LA, the Clippers would of probably over achieved like they did the season before sneaking into the playoffs.
Ending up reeling in crappy late first round picks.


Jerry actually got a superstar free agent to come join the Clippers via free agency. That has never happened EVER.
Not his fault this particular superstar likes to take a vacation of 20-30 games during the regular season with extreme load managing.

Cheat the Game, Live with these results.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:42 pm    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
Dr. Laker wrote:
AFireInside619 wrote:
Some don’t seem to get it. The reason I’m guessing OP made this thread is because Jerry West gets the positive credit for everything his name has been attached to. But he never gets the blame. Kind of a “Golden Boy” who can do no wrong. People give him credit without knowing his level of involvement. He absolutely can deserve the blame as well.

Where was he to block the PG trade like when he blocked the trade for Kevin Love?


Thou shalt not criticize St. West.


At least have the intelligence to understand what his position is with the Clippers. He isn’t a GM, he isn’t an executive, he doesn’t make trades or sign FAs. What a train wreck of a thread.


When VLF starts getting personal about an OP's intelligence, you know he is salty
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:42 pm    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
Dr. Laker wrote:
AFireInside619 wrote:
Some don’t seem to get it. The reason I’m guessing OP made this thread is because Jerry West gets the positive credit for everything his name has been attached to. But he never gets the blame. Kind of a “Golden Boy” who can do no wrong. People give him credit without knowing his level of involvement. He absolutely can deserve the blame as well.

Where was he to block the PG trade like when he blocked the trade for Kevin Love?


Thou shalt not criticize St. West.


At least have the intelligence to understand what his position is with the Clippers. He isn’t a GM, he isn’t an executive, he doesn’t make trades or sign FAs. What a train wreck of a thread.


Then you do agree that he deserved little, if any, credit for what was allegedly a spectacular offseason for them last year, right? Because he got heaped with a lot of it, even from many Laker fans last year.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:47 pm    Post subject:

We have no idea how much credit he gets, consulting isn’t typically made public. In the preseason I gave credit to Frank and Winger, they will be the ones pulling the strings this offseason as well.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:51 pm    Post subject:

KingKobe20 wrote:
Can't blame Jerry for this one.
If there was No Jerry West convincing Kawhi and PG to come to LA, the Clippers would of probably over achieved like they did the season before sneaking into the playoffs.
Ending up reeling in crappy late first round picks.


Jerry actually got a superstar free agent to come join the Clippers via free agency. That has never happened EVER.
Not his fault this particular superstar likes to take a vacation of 20-30 games during the regular season with extreme load managing.

Cheat the Game, Live with these results.


I don't think J West gets credit or blame for this any more than he should for the Warriors. He is a consultant. I love J West but the dude is an octogenarian who hasn't been day to day since his Memphis days. Let's just remember all he did for us and leave it at that.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:03 pm    Post subject:

Guys, Jerry West is 82 years old. There's no way he'd be able to keep up with the work involved so someone at the Clippers is probably doing a lot of his work for him (which is probably why it's rumored Rivers had a lot of pull getting George.)

And more importantly Rob Pelinka has done an AMAZING job this year with what he was left with and after Kawhi screwed us.

There's no way we can oust Pelinka to bring back West right now, even though he was screwed by us.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Did Jerry West Screw The Clippers?

Dr. Laker wrote:
activeverb wrote:
Megaton wrote:
Gave up 5 first round picks, SGA and Gallo for a guy that made less FGs than that in Game 7, Kawhi and Pandemic P now with one year left on their contracts before they split, and Harrell is a FA who’s gonna command a lot of money. Doc Rivers likely ain’t gonna get fired despite his choking coaching history so Zubac will never get starting minutes like he should, and Lou Will is unplayable in the playoffs.

For a guy that will likely be touted as one of the best executives in NBA history, he sure pulled a stinker for the Clippers in his likely last front office job.

Sam Presti is looking like a god right now with all those picks from the Rockets and Clippers though.



I disagree. West put together a contending team. That’s all you can expect a GM to do.

As far as Sam Presti, the perception of GMs as "gods" or incompetent fluctuates depending on the moment. He's a "god" now because of all those picks; if those picks don't turn into anything, he'll be drummed out of town.



Did he? Lawrence Frank was the architect, according to Doc:

https://clutchpoints.com/clippers-news-doc-rivers-calls-lawrence-frank-the-hero-of-las-offseason/

I think West is just a name on the masthead, like at a multinational law firm that brings in "senior partners" for the value of their name - they get a big check and very little say so.


I said West; I really just meant their FO.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:01 pm    Post subject:

Clippers put together a great fantasy team on paper. Not a great NBA team on the court.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:23 pm    Post subject:

GTL wrote:
4th Quarter Playoffs -

Kawhi : 486 points (Career) 124 games
Kobe : 524 points (Playoffs 08-10) 67 games




Half of Kawhi's playoff games were in his first three years, where he was fourth in the stack behind Duncan, Parker and Manu. He was only averaging about 15 ppg. in the playoffs during those years.

And when he won his first Finals MVP, the Spurs were blowing the Heat out by 15-21 points so I don't know that he really needed to score or play that much in the 4th.

This particular stat, in a vacuum, really doesn't tell me anything.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:31 pm    Post subject:

1995Lakers wrote:
GTL wrote:
4th Quarter Playoffs -

Kawhi : 486 points (Career) 124 games
Kobe : 524 points (Playoffs 08-10) 67 games


That Kobe was better than Lebron at that time especially in playoff time and was rightly recognized as the best player in the world other than hardcore Lebron stans like Nick Wright. Had these two matched up in the Finals during any of these years - hell even include 2011, I would have stuck Kobe on Lebron and tell Kobe to get inside Bron's head, challenge him and give him the space to shoot. Always got the sense that Bron was really susceptible to Kobe's head games at this time - I think later they had even had a story about the head games Kobe did to Bron during the Olympics (2008) and I realized my gut was right the whole time in terms of what Kobe would do to Bron



Um, the post you are responding to had nothing to do with Lebron.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:32 pm    Post subject:

1995Lakers wrote:
lakerdynasty5.0 wrote:
1995Lakers wrote:
Jerry West>>>>>>Jeanie Buss

1. A.C. Green
2. Vlade Divac
3. Elden Campbell
4. Ceballos for Horry
5. Nick Van Exel
6. The trade dump of Lynch and Peeler to free up cap space and letting Vancouver be the suckers
7. Trade with Charlotte for Kobe
8. Derek Fisher
9. Blocking the Tarpley/Aguirre for Worthy trade
10. Nixon for Scott

these were all West


and by those same metrics, Sharman >>>>>>> West (as another poster eloquently said earlier: with a "Rolls Royce" thrown in for good measure)


You wont get any complaints out of me about Sharman. That old Leprechaun became a real Laker (like Rick Fox) and gelled a supremely talented team into the best versions of themselves as a coach with Wilt and West and set up the Showtime dynasty. The drafting of Nixon where he was selected, putting together the Kareem trade, obtaining the draft pick for Worthy - swapping a lowly first round pick in the current year to bet on a team he thought would suck and give a higher draft pick later, and of course letting aging Goodrich walk that ended up being Magic Johnson (although its hard to credit this one - more like a fluky good luck than real foresight)


Well said! And I didn't think there was anyone "older" than me on LG
BTW, don't forgot the "coin toss" that got us Worthy! Plus I'll give west, the one that I hated, I mean ABSOLUTELY HATED!! Trading Norm Nixon to get Byron Scott , around 40 years later, I can admit, it turned out to be a great deal.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:33 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
GTL wrote:
4th Quarter Playoffs -

Kawhi : 486 points (Career) 124 games
Kobe : 524 points (Playoffs 08-10) 67 games




Half of Kawhi's playoff games were in his first three years, where he was fourth in the stack behind Duncan, Parker and Manu. He was only averaging about 15 ppg. in the playoffs during those years.

And when he won his first Finals MVP, the Spurs were blowing the Heat out by 15-21 points so I don't know that he really needed to score or play that much in the 4th.

This particular stat, in a vacuum, really doesn't tell me anything.


Tells you how much that Finals MVP is worth that Kawhi got on the Spurs. It's worth about as much as Andre Iguodala's FMVP.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:35 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
1995Lakers wrote:
GTL wrote:
4th Quarter Playoffs -

Kawhi : 486 points (Career) 124 games
Kobe : 524 points (Playoffs 08-10) 67 games


That Kobe was better than Lebron at that time especially in playoff time and was rightly recognized as the best player in the world other than hardcore Lebron stans like Nick Wright. Had these two matched up in the Finals during any of these years - hell even include 2011, I would have stuck Kobe on Lebron and tell Kobe to get inside Bron's head, challenge him and give him the space to shoot. Always got the sense that Bron was really susceptible to Kobe's head games at this time - I think later they had even had a story about the head games Kobe did to Bron during the Olympics (2008) and I realized my gut was right the whole time in terms of what Kobe would do to Bron



Um, the post you are responding to had nothing to do with Lebron.


I'm curious, anyone knows Lebron's 4th quarter playoff stats?
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