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lakersboy
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Joined: 20 Jul 2006
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Location: Left coast
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 Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2020 10:17 am Post subject: |
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| Never mind. |
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LakerDynasty6.0
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Joined: 12 Jan 2009
Posts: 4656
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2020 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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| 1995Lakers wrote: | | lakerdynasty5.0 wrote: | | waterman40 wrote: | | Maybe the Heat are like the 2004 Lakers? Key player injured right as game starts... |
more like the '89 Lakers: Frigging Riley being the common denominator.. |
No way....89 Lakers arguably were the strongest version of the Lakers. Dude they lost Earvin Johnson in the middle of Game 2 and was without Byron Scott who was a borderline all star and at his peak for the entire series and STILL, the Lakers were in all the games. At the time, Magic and Byron were recognized as the best guard tandem in the league ahead of even Isiah and Joe. These Heat are nothing compared to those Lakers |
The comment that I. responded to was "Key player injured right as game starts...."
and I gave Riley his due for getting our players injured..
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composite
Star Player
Joined: 31 May 2005
Posts: 3043
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2020 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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There's so many things odd about that Lakers-Detroit series. The West was generally the stronger conference.
Detroit was hardly invincible that year. NJ led Detroit 3-2 in the EC Semis before losing 4-3. Indiana lost 4-2 in a tight series.
And yet Detroit really manhandled the Lakers 4-1. Kobe shot horrifically. Karl reinjured his knee and was a shell of himself.
But it's strange how Detroit won so easily. |
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Cutheon
Franchise Player
Joined: 10 Jul 2009
Posts: 12161
Location: Bay Area
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2020 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Team is giving me more of a '99 knicks vibe. A team with no established superstar coached by a Pat Riley disciple taking advantage of unusual circumstances to make an improbable run, only to have the wheels fall off and get w r e c k e d by a team that is significantly superior to any they previously faced. |
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yinoma2001
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Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 119487
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2020 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Cutheon wrote: | | Team is giving me more of a '99 knicks vibe. A team with no established superstar coached by a Pat Riley disciple taking advantage of unusual circumstances to make an improbable run, only to have the wheels fall off and get w r e c k e d by a team that is significantly superior to any they previously faced. |
Ooh, good one. Is that the Sprewell/Houston/Camby/LJ team?
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Cutheon
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Joined: 10 Jul 2009
Posts: 12161
Location: Bay Area
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2020 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Cutheon wrote: | | Team is giving me more of a '99 knicks vibe. A team with no established superstar coached by a Pat Riley disciple taking advantage of unusual circumstances to make an improbable run, only to have the wheels fall off and get w r e c k e d by a team that is significantly superior to any they previously faced. |
Ooh, good one. Is that the Sprewell/Houston/Camby/LJ team? |
Yup. And Ewing, but he didn't play after game 2 of the ECF against the Pacers. The asterisk season (lockout). |
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audioaxes
Franchise Player
Joined: 26 Apr 2004
Posts: 12573
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2020 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| slavavov wrote: | The Pistons won mostly because Shaq and Kobe were both on their own planet, Kobe shot badly, we had no chemistry and no one else on the team did anything to help.
That Pistons team is the worst team ever to win an NBA championship.
Imo this Heat team is better and different, but we're still a little bit better this year. |
they are no where near the worst team
they had no superstar but their starting lineup was a very impressive collection of talent and they were an all time great defensive team that was perfect for that "dead ball" era in the NBA
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JPaulK0n
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Joined: 06 Feb 2018
Posts: 2478
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2020 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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That 2004 Pistons team had 4 elite defensive players in the starting lineup with Ben, Sheed, Prince, & Billups. Hamilton was a really good defender as well, even though he wasn't elite defensively, and he made the Pistons flow offensively with his off ball movement. People forget the Pistons won 54 games, while Lakers won 56 games so they weren't off record wise from one another. I still say the Lakers beat the best team that season being the 2004 Spurs squad that had Duncan, Parker, Ginobili, Bowen, Horry, Hedo Turkoglu, etc. that are statistical one of the greatest defensive teams ever that the Lakers beat after being down 2-0. Don't think it was a coincidence Spurs beat the Pistons the next season after in the finals. But, styles make fights and the Pistons just ran into a great defensive team that were able to kill the Lakers in the pick n roll on offense and knew they didn't have to worry about the Lakers role players stepping up when the Lakers had to play Luke, Slava, & Rush a bunch of minutes.
This Heat team aren't anywhere close to being an all time great defense like that Pistons team was and the Heat have multiple negative defensive players on their roster as well, while the Pistons had no real weak link on defense. This current Heat team even before game 1 was played was more in line with the 2001 Sixers & 2002 Nets, that were scrappy defensive teams that are over-matched going up against 2 superstar players that are top 3-5 players in the league. The real NBA finals this year was in the WCF. Heat are the worst offense the Lakers will have faced this postseason, similar to the 2002 playoffs in which the Blazers, Kings, & Spurs were all better competition and better teams than the Nets that made it to the finals. |
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wolfpaclaker
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Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 58336
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2020 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Cutheon wrote: | | Team is giving me more of a '99 knicks vibe. A team with no established superstar coached by a Pat Riley disciple taking advantage of unusual circumstances to make an improbable run, only to have the wheels fall off and get w r e c k e d by a team that is significantly superior to any they previously faced. |
Also a locked out season so some teams players out of shape, kinda like Bubble play. I can see this comparison actually. |
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DrDent
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Joined: 30 Jun 2016
Posts: 12975
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2020 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | A lot of revisionist history going on - at the time of that series. Detroit's now perceived "legends" were seen as nothing more than what Miami's current dudes are. The Pistons guys became those names in large part after that series. Only Sheed was seen as the talent he was, everyone else IIRC had not been a perennial all-star until that point.
I do see some of the comparisons, but as I said previously, the biggest difference to me is that they don't have Ben Wallace inside defensively or to be able to dominate the glass and activity rate, but even if you say they have Bam, they don't have that combo of Wallaces. where it is Ben and Sheed together. Having that length of Ben, Sheed, Tay Prince, that was something special on D, and have Kobe a lot of problems and they also gave us a lot of problems getting the ball into Shaq. They Heat can play great D,but not all time great D, like the Pistons were able to. Heat often have to change up from man, to cover their weaknesses. Pistons 2004 D was all time good. Their offense to this day does not impress me (Pistons that is). We should have beaten that team, had we been in sync and cohesive like this 2019-20 Lakers squad is.
On the flip, this Lakers team may be one of the all time great D teams with our set up and versatility on that end. No other team in league history has had the type of size and versatility this group has. And it can show, with how when they figure you out on D and get the right match ups, that you're just (bleep).
Would not get cocky, and hope the Lakers aren't. The Heat will come out to play for their playoff lives tomorrow, and the Lakers need to be ready to match that energy. Bam usually follows a bad game with a monster game.
For sure I understand that Miami is not as talented as Denver with Murray-Jokic. But they have a lot of weapons, and game 1 was not their best effort. Like I said after the trophy ceremonies, Miami looked all too happy just being an EC champion. For us it's title or bust. We need to jump on Miami in game 2. They have never been down in a playoff series these playoffs until now. Jimmy won't quit until the last possession, but the rest of their guys, will start to have doubts. You could see it even mid-way in the 2nd Q. |
Really the only thing I disagree with is the lead with your comments - "a lot of revisionist history"....I disagree, I think a number of folks are not revising anything.
I very much recall my perceptions and assessment of that Piston team at that time. They did concern me as they were very good at clogging things up. Of course, I had Laker colored glasses on so believed "at the end they have no answer for Shaq", but my assessment back then was talent wise they were "good across the board but no super stars" like the Lakers had. While we could go back and forth over individual players (yes, you are correct that Billups and Rip had not yet made an all star team until AFTER they won the Championship; however, Ben Wallace had already been a DPOY and established himself as a defensive anchor handful), to simplify things I think I can say this:
Miami did not run the season with a top tier defense. Their defensive ranking was 12th. The Pistons finished second...a smidge behind the Spurs. In the playoffs, the Pistons became the top defense and actually (statistically, now looking back) improved, while this Miami team has basically stayed the same defensively.
I think that is where folks like myself take issue with a Pistons comparison. Going INTO the Finals the Pistons had rightfully earned a terrific defensive reputation from the entire year's effort, so you knew it was going to be a real challenge. Miami is nowhere near that defensive team. Plus the Pistons had the eternal laker Killer, 'Sheed...and yea. From there we start to dissect the players and that's where maybe you have a point - not a revisionist one [that implies, to me, a form of intentional misrepresentation] - but perhaps mistakenly applying the fact we recall Chauncey became an all star, so did Rip, etc...and not conceding that perhaps folks like Bam, Herro, Duncan, etc can eventually do the same.
After watching now 2 full games this year of Lakers v Heat...I can comfortably say I do not believe they have anyone, except Butler, who will be more talented than Chauncey. Of course, this remains to be seen over the years  |
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hig
Star Player
Joined: 31 Oct 2001
Posts: 4844
Location: Suckramento
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2020 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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The Heat give me more of a 2002 Nets vibe.
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hype
Star Player
Joined: 19 Nov 2007
Posts: 4375
Location: Lake Nacimiento
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2020 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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| DrDent wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | A lot of revisionist history going on - at the time of that series. Detroit's now perceived "legends" were seen as nothing more than what Miami's current dudes are. The Pistons guys became those names in large part after that series. Only Sheed was seen as the talent he was, everyone else IIRC had not been a perennial all-star until that point.
I do see some of the comparisons, but as I said previously, the biggest difference to me is that they don't have Ben Wallace inside defensively or to be able to dominate the glass and activity rate, but even if you say they have Bam, they don't have that combo of Wallaces. where it is Ben and Sheed together. Having that length of Ben, Sheed, Tay Prince, that was something special on D, and have Kobe a lot of problems and they also gave us a lot of problems getting the ball into Shaq. They Heat can play great D,but not all time great D, like the Pistons were able to. Heat often have to change up from man, to cover their weaknesses. Pistons 2004 D was all time good. Their offense to this day does not impress me (Pistons that is). We should have beaten that team, had we been in sync and cohesive like this 2019-20 Lakers squad is.
On the flip, this Lakers team may be one of the all time great D teams with our set up and versatility on that end. No other team in league history has had the type of size and versatility this group has. And it can show, with how when they figure you out on D and get the right match ups, that you're just (bleep).
Would not get cocky, and hope the Lakers aren't. The Heat will come out to play for their playoff lives tomorrow, and the Lakers need to be ready to match that energy. Bam usually follows a bad game with a monster game.
For sure I understand that Miami is not as talented as Denver with Murray-Jokic. But they have a lot of weapons, and game 1 was not their best effort. Like I said after the trophy ceremonies, Miami looked all too happy just being an EC champion. For us it's title or bust. We need to jump on Miami in game 2. They have never been down in a playoff series these playoffs until now. Jimmy won't quit until the last possession, but the rest of their guys, will start to have doubts. You could see it even mid-way in the 2nd Q. |
Really the only thing I disagree with is the lead with your comments - "a lot of revisionist history"....I disagree, I think a number of folks are not revising anything.
I very much recall my perceptions and assessment of that Piston team at that time. They did concern me as they were very good at clogging things up. Of course, I had Laker colored glasses on so believed "at the end they have no answer for Shaq", but my assessment back then was talent wise they were "good across the board but no super stars" like the Lakers had. While we could go back and forth over individual players (yes, you are correct that Billups and Rip had not yet made an all star team until AFTER they won the Championship; however, Ben Wallace had already been a DPOY and established himself as a defensive anchor handful), to simplify things I think I can say this:
Miami did not run the season with a top tier defense. Their defensive ranking was 12th. The Pistons finished second...a smidge behind the Spurs. In the playoffs, the Pistons became the top defense and actually (statistically, now looking back) improved, while this Miami team has basically stayed the same defensively.
I think that is where folks like myself take issue with a Pistons comparison. Going INTO the Finals the Pistons had rightfully earned a terrific defensive reputation from the entire year's effort, so you knew it was going to be a real challenge. Miami is nowhere near that defensive team. Plus the Pistons had the eternal laker Killer, 'Sheed...and yea. From there we start to dissect the players and that's where maybe you have a point - not a revisionist one [that implies, to me, a form of intentional misrepresentation] - but perhaps mistakenly applying the fact we recall Chauncey became an all star, so did Rip, etc...and not conceding that perhaps folks like Bam, Herro, Duncan, etc can eventually do the same.
After watching now 2 full games this year of Lakers v Heat...I can comfortably say I do not believe they have anyone, except Butler, who will be more talented than Chauncey. Of course, this remains to be seen over the years |
Good post. I wont go into extreme detail as I have already several times and it's just getting more ridiculous by the day. My biggest issue with the comparison was always the defensive side of things. Bam got arguably outplayed or at least mostly neutralized by Brook Lopez of all people in these Playoffs. Then you have Herro and Robinson while they are great pure shooters they're also huge defensive liabilities at times especially Herro so if they're getting heavy minutes and not shooting efficiently they're going to cause a lot of damage for your team.
While some of the Pistons were def. far from great offensive players they were an absolute elite defensive team. Against the Heat, we could lose a role player or two and still probably win but maybe just a bit less convincingly. The close game we had with the Heat earlier in the year we had regular season Rondo who went 0-5, Dudley playing heavy minutes along with I believe both Troy Daniels and Cook also getting decent minutes. The Heat are simply massively outmatched by a team with much better players and massively more experience which might not matter a ton in the regular season but it absolutely matters this deep into the Playoffs, even in the bubble.
The Heat aren't "great" at really anything they just worked harder then most teams and had some series where they matched up really well and took advantage of it. They deserve to be here and are a good team but The problem is now the Lakers have most of the mismatches while they also work hard and have 2 superstars that are basically best friends right now and peaking as teammates. It's just a nightmare matchup for them just like it was for the Nuggets who I believe would have also beat this Heat team. |
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999
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Joined: 19 Oct 2006
Posts: 20266
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2020 10:52 pm Post subject: |
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| hig wrote: | | The Heat give me more of a 2002 Nets vibe. |
I was about to say this. |
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Hector the Pup
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Joined: 25 Jul 2002
Posts: 35946
Location: L.A.
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| Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2020 1:34 am Post subject: |
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| That Pistons team was a defensive slaughterhouse that went against a fractured and injury riddled Lakers. |
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governator
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Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 25086
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| Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2020 5:46 am Post subject: |
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| More curious if 2004 Pistons can beat 2011 Mavs |
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