New Foston Celtic Argument
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:19 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
Beir32 wrote:
I will say that I agree with one point in all this silliness…

If the Lakers are gonna count their Minneapolis championships (which they should) then it’s past time to retire Mikan’s number.



The Lakers have always had a weird relationship with their Minneapolis days. They love the ring count, but don't want to truly acknowledge the players.

They should have retired the numbers of George Mikan, Slater Martin, Jim Pollard, and Vern Mikkelsen 20 or 30 years ago.

Although at this point, it also seems a little pointless. You can't honor them, because they're all dead. You can't really honor their memory, because hardly any Lakers fans remember them.


I actually feel it is a worthy point to celebrate the "history" of the Lakers.

We talk about Laker tradition all the time. Part of that tradition was established in Minny. It would be so easy to retire those numbers, honor 2-3 of those all time Laker greats and slam home the point of decades old dominance.

Schedule a "Retire the Jersey " night early next season. Have a presentation to educate the fans of some stellar but overlooked careers. Remind the young fans why Laker tradition is a very real thing.

Only downside will be any photos of that era look ridiculous compared to current jerseys and players. Hard to get past the tight shorts and set shots. lol
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GOODRICH25
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:32 pm    Post subject:

Judah wrote:
The argument that the Minneapolis chips shouldn't count has never made any real sense. The organization is what matters, not where they're located. The Lakers, the organization, relocated to Los Angeles.

Several teams have relocated anyway. Should we dismiss all of the team history of the Thunder since they relocated there from Seattle? And what about the Clippers? We can play this asinine game all day. It's silly.


Tbh i dont like OKC claiming their Sonics hiatory, they changed all about them, city, colors, name. They rebranded immediately. If a new Sonics franchise is born in Seattle, id consider them the successors instead of OKC, A similar case to this is when the old Hornets changed name to the Pelicans. Then Bobcats asked for that name and the Pelicans gave up (or lost rights to?) their Hornets history outside of NO, which the Bobcats inherited.

We are kinda different though. We simply moved our organization, kept the name and colors (later changed them). We remained the same, just in a different city. As for Boston fans, dont you guys worry much. Soon we gonna have 17 chips in LA alone, then you can shut up forever
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:37 pm    Post subject:

Aside from a flare up in 2008-2010 (like hemorrhoids), the Celtics have been mostly irrelevant in the NBA since 1986. So Celtics fans can shove it.
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32
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:38 pm    Post subject:

They keep bringing this up. Nothing new.
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LakerDYnasty72
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:49 pm    Post subject:

jonnybravo wrote:
This is what Zach Lowe thinks of that moronic argument.

"If the Celtics fans want to dismiss the (Lakers Minneapolis titles) they have to come to grip with the fact that 9 of their 17 titles came when there were like 9 teams in the NBA & dudes were smoking in the locker room"



That's not even getting into the fact that the Celtics as an organization did a 100% swap with the Buffalo Braves in '78.


Yeah, Zach, and the rest of ya'll, if there were less teams then, and if there were less teams now, theoretically, the teams would be better because of the concentration of talent.

So, for instance,if there were less teams now, we'd have even more talent because there would be less teams to compete for all the talent that would be available. Anyway, I could easily see why boston's fans would make that argument.

I wouldn't argue with them because I realize that it's the only way they can console themselves while waiting for the next season to start.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:12 pm    Post subject:

DLaker wrote:
https://offthedribble.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/05/22/freaky-friday-n-b-a-style-when-the-clippers-were-the-celtics/


Yep.

Sure, we’ll say we only have 12. Way more than their measly 4.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:13 pm    Post subject:

LakerDYnasty72 wrote:
jonnybravo wrote:
This is what Zach Lowe thinks of that moronic argument.

"If the Celtics fans want to dismiss the (Lakers Minneapolis titles) they have to come to grip with the fact that 9 of their 17 titles came when there were like 9 teams in the NBA & dudes were smoking in the locker room"



That's not even getting into the fact that the Celtics as an organization did a 100% swap with the Buffalo Braves in '78.


Yeah, Zach, and the rest of ya'll, if there were less teams then, and if there were less teams now, theoretically, the teams would be better because of the concentration of talent.

So, for instance,if there were less teams now, we'd have even more talent because there would be less teams to compete for all the talent that would be available. Anyway, I could easily see why boston's fans would make that argument.

I wouldn't argue with them because I realize that it's the only way they can console themselves while waiting for the next season to start.

That assumes that the players of that era are as talented as the players in this era, which I don't think is the case.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:19 pm    Post subject:

Pre Magic/Bird is like the Old Testament

Everything since the NBA revolution of those players is the modern era.

You count your total organizational championships, and then list your modern era championships.

What counts to me is the rings you have since 1980 when I graduated high school.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:25 pm    Post subject:

So it's either 11 to 4 Us or 18 to 17 Us...damn right I'm claiming the one in '48.

Either way it's US!
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:32 pm    Post subject:

Judah wrote:
LakerDYnasty72 wrote:
jonnybravo wrote:
This is what Zach Lowe thinks of that moronic argument.

"If the Celtics fans want to dismiss the (Lakers Minneapolis titles) they have to come to grip with the fact that 9 of their 17 titles came when there were like 9 teams in the NBA & dudes were smoking in the locker room"



That's not even getting into the fact that the Celtics as an organization did a 100% swap with the Buffalo Braves in '78.


Yeah, Zach, and the rest of ya'll, if there were less teams then, and if there were less teams now, theoretically, the teams would be better because of the concentration of talent.

So, for instance,if there were less teams now, we'd have even more talent because there would be less teams to compete for all the talent that would be available. Anyway, I could easily see why boston's fans would make that argument.

I wouldn't argue with them because I realize that it's the only way they can console themselves while waiting for the next season to start.

That assumes that the players of that era are as talented as the players in this era, which I don't think is the case.


We'll never know how good the players were in those eras because of the systematic racism that kept many players off of teams. And yes, even our beloved Lakers had a policy of no blacks in the arena if they're not on the team.

"there were only a mere 4 black ball players for the entire NBA in 1950. Like so many other franchises from that time, even Los Angeles, now home to the beloved Lakers, originally had a policy of not allowing blacks on the team. The Lakers franchise, in fact, did not have their first black ball player until 1956. That player was Bob Williams (former Harlem Globetrotter)"

https://www.harlemworldmagazine.com/basketball-slave-racism-early-history-nba/

I'll move to off topic if you want, mods probably will anyway. Not saying they were better, but that the point you make needs to evaluated in the context of what was happening at that time.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:02 pm    Post subject:

CervantesRises wrote:
So it's either 11 to 4 Us or 18 to 17 Us...damn right I'm claiming the one in '48.

Either way it's US!

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:45 pm    Post subject:

LakerDYnasty72 wrote:
jonnybravo wrote:
This is what Zach Lowe thinks of that moronic argument.

"If the Celtics fans want to dismiss the (Lakers Minneapolis titles) they have to come to grip with the fact that 9 of their 17 titles came when there were like 9 teams in the NBA & dudes were smoking in the locker room"



That's not even getting into the fact that the Celtics as an organization did a 100% swap with the Buffalo Braves in '78.


Yeah, Zach, and the rest of ya'll, if there were less teams then, and if there were less teams now, theoretically, the teams would be better because of the concentration of talent.

So, for instance,if there were less teams now, we'd have even more talent because there would be less teams to compete for all the talent that would be available. Anyway, I could easily see why boston's fans would make that argument.

I wouldn't argue with them because I realize that it's the only way they can console themselves while waiting for the next season to start.

My counter to that is that the talent pool is much bigger in the modern NBA.

First of all, basketball is MUCH bigger than it was in the '50s and '60s, which means many more little kids playing the sport, which means more great talent coming into the NBA.

Second, all the foreigners coming into the NBA the last 20 years or so has also expended the talent pool.

The Celtics winning 11 titles in the '50s and '60s is like the Red Sox winning several titles in the early 20th century. It was a lot easier back then for several reasons.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:54 pm    Post subject:

slavavov wrote:
LakerDYnasty72 wrote:
jonnybravo wrote:
This is what Zach Lowe thinks of that moronic argument.

"If the Celtics fans want to dismiss the (Lakers Minneapolis titles) they have to come to grip with the fact that 9 of their 17 titles came when there were like 9 teams in the NBA & dudes were smoking in the locker room"



That's not even getting into the fact that the Celtics as an organization did a 100% swap with the Buffalo Braves in '78.


Yeah, Zach, and the rest of ya'll, if there were less teams then, and if there were less teams now, theoretically, the teams would be better because of the concentration of talent.

So, for instance,if there were less teams now, we'd have even more talent because there would be less teams to compete for all the talent that would be available. Anyway, I could easily see why boston's fans would make that argument.

I wouldn't argue with them because I realize that it's the only way they can console themselves while waiting for the next season to start.

My counter to that is that the talent pool is much bigger in the modern NBA.

First of all, basketball is MUCH bigger than it was in the '50s and '60s, which means many more little kids playing the sport, which means more great talent coming into the NBA.

Second, all the foreigners coming into the NBA the last 20 years or so has also expended the talent pool.

The Celtics winning 11 titles in the '50s and '60s is like the Red Sox winning several titles in the early 20th century. It was a lot easier back then for several reasons.


For the most part I agree, BUT, my counter: we'll never know how good the players were in those eras because of the systematic racism that kept many players off of teams
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:56 pm    Post subject:

leor_77 wrote:
This isn't "new," its an argument that is as old as time for Celtics fans.



Yep, heard it many times. Yet it's 17...
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 7:15 pm    Post subject:

F* the Saltics
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 7:42 pm    Post subject:

CervantesRises wrote:
So it's either 11 to 4 Us or 18 to 17 Us...damn right I'm claiming the one in '48.

Either way it's US!


Me, too. The NBA celebrates its starting year as 1946 - which was when the NBL started, therefore our 1948 NBL Title should count.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:02 pm    Post subject:

johnnynbravo wrote:

That's not even getting into the fact that the Celtics as an organization did a 100% swap with the Buffalo Braves in '78.



The organizations didn't change. They just swapped owners -- basically, they each sold their franchises to the other guy. Really no different than Jim Buss taking over the Lakers from Jack Kent Cooke.


Last edited by activeverb on Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:07 pm    Post subject:

Judah wrote:
LakerDYnasty72 wrote:
jonnybravo wrote:
This is what Zach Lowe thinks of that moronic argument.

"If the Celtics fans want to dismiss the (Lakers Minneapolis titles) they have to come to grip with the fact that 9 of their 17 titles came when there were like 9 teams in the NBA & dudes were smoking in the locker room"



That's not even getting into the fact that the Celtics as an organization did a 100% swap with the Buffalo Braves in '78.


Yeah, Zach, and the rest of ya'll, if there were less teams then, and if there were less teams now, theoretically, the teams would be better because of the concentration of talent.

So, for instance,if there were less teams now, we'd have even more talent because there would be less teams to compete for all the talent that would be available. Anyway, I could easily see why boston's fans would make that argument.

I wouldn't argue with them because I realize that it's the only way they can console themselves while waiting for the next season to start.

That assumes that the players of that era are as talented as the players in this era, which I don't think is the case.



The 60s didn't have the same talent pool. Not really any international players. The scouting wasn't as advanced so lots of college players fell through the cracks. Some college stars elected not to go to the NBA because the pay wasn't so great.

What that means is in the eye of the beholder. You can only play the teams you play, and if you win, you win.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:28 pm    Post subject:

I think everyone’s championships count. Even though 11 of Boston’s 17 happened before the 1970s they still get to count them. Personally I feel pretty good that most of ours have come in the modern era but ya never know maybe Boston will figure out how to win more in the color TV era.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:29 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
LakerDYnasty72 wrote:

That's not even getting into the fact that the Celtics as an organization did a 100% swap with the Buffalo Braves in '78.



The organizations didn't change. They just swapped owners -- basically, they each sold their franchises to the other guy. Really no different than Jim Buss taking over the Lakers from Jack Kent Cooke.


I'm sure your correct, but that post is attributed to me. I didn't post that statement.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:39 pm    Post subject:

A LOT of people will bash me for this, but I look at the NBA from the 1979/80 season on... Yes, I was born in 1980 prior to the end of the regular season, but that was also the rookie season for both Magic and Bird (who took the league out of the gutter and into the spotlight), and also the season the 3 point line was introduced (what is the NBA without a 3 point line???). Lakers now have 11 titles since 1980, Bulls 6, Spurs 5, Celtics 4....
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:41 pm    Post subject:

I do think the Lakers should retire Mikan's number if they're serious about including them in our history beyond the title count.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:15 pm    Post subject:

Just ask them how many championship parades they've attended in their lifetime.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:19 pm    Post subject:

LakerDYnasty72 wrote:
activeverb wrote:
LakerDYnasty72 wrote:

That's not even getting into the fact that the Celtics as an organization did a 100% swap with the Buffalo Braves in '78.



The organizations didn't change. They just swapped owners -- basically, they each sold their franchises to the other guy. Really no different than Jim Buss taking over the Lakers from Jack Kent Cooke.


I'm sure your correct, but that post is attributed to me. I didn't post that statement.


My bad. It was johnnynbravo. I tried to cut down the size of the post, and screwed up!
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:05 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
Beir32 wrote:
I will say that I agree with one point in all this silliness…

If the Lakers are gonna count their Minneapolis championships (which they should) then it’s past time to retire Mikan’s number.



The Lakers have always had a weird relationship with their Minneapolis days. They love the ring count, but don't want to truly acknowledge the players.

They should have retired the numbers of George Mikan, Slater Martin, Jim Pollard, and Vern Mikkelsen 20 or 30 years ago.

Although at this point, it also seems a little pointless. You can't honor them, because they're all dead. You can't really honor their memory, because hardly any Lakers fans remember them.


There was a ceremony in 2002.

https://www.splicetoday.com/sports/the-los-angeles-lakers-and-the-art-of-legacy-inflation

Quote:
On April 11, 2002, the Los Angeles Lakers completed their assumption of all things “Laker” by affixing two banners to the wall of the Staples Center. One banner featured the names of the five Minneapolis Lakers players enshrined in the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame, along with the name of their coach, John Kundla, and the other acknowledged and laid claim to the five NBA championships won by the Lakers franchise in Minneapolis.

All of this was done during a late-season home game against the Minnesota Timberwolves, which was either a deliberate attempt to legitimize the title grab by ostensibly paying homage to the former Minneapolis franchise while some of their former fans might be tuning in, or a cruel powerplay to strip Minnesotans and their city of five of their championships and make them watch helplessly while it occurred. Certainly, there would be little Minnesota could do to honor the men who had done all of their winning while headquartered in Minneapolis if the most public monuments to their achievements adorned the walls of the Staples Center.

The Lakers, led by Shaquille O’Neal and Kobe Bryant, took the floor adorned in bright blue jerseys bearing yellow trim, with the classic “MPLS” lettering of the defunct Minneapolis Lakers franchise stitched across their chests. On commentary, legendary Lakers play-by-play announcer Chick Hearn immediately localized the color combination, claiming that it reminded him of “...UCLA, all the way!”

During a halftime ceremony, Los Angeles Lakers legends James Worthy, Elgin Baylor and Magic Johnson were among the former players who awarded championship rings and other trinkets to the former members of the Minneapolis franchise, including their franchise center George Mikan, and then the banner representing five championships was hoisted along the wall. Color commentator Stu Lantz quickly did the math, but then made a Freudian slip when he remarked, “So, you add those five championships with the eight Laker banners that are up there, and you’ve got 13 franchise championships!”
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