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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:31 am    Post subject:

lakersfever714 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
ZeroDark30_ wrote:
lakersfever714 wrote:
I'm having much more confidence in THT as being our longterm solution to be the ballhandler from the bench. Then DS would be irrelevant. We could just get any decent shooter to fill his role. If you asked me today, then I would not give him that 4-year/$83M. That money could be much better spent elsewhere like for an allstar big or something.

Exactly. So far I hope we don’t commit that money to him. He hasn’t showed he deserves that payday on this team. Maybe somewhere else. We could pave the way for THT to become our lead guard instead.


THT is going to need more time to develop. I'm a huge THT fan but I like how they're slowly bringing him up. Dennis will likely be extended. Now, whether that means he retires a Laker is a different question. But the Lakers won't let an asset like him just walk for nothing (and we would only have the MLE to replace him, possibly Trezz, even AC/THT are up for extensions too).


Highly doubt the Lakers would give him that 4 yr/$83M extension but we'll see. I'd rather just get a good defensive guard that could shoot for almost half the price like KCP.


They offered him the 2 year version. Reports are they will offer the 4 year deal come February. They like him.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:09 am    Post subject:

We need to give DS some time coming off of the bench.

Him starting may be the long-run answer, but it isn't working great right now. DS and Trez were supposed to be a duo that came off the bench and excelled, so why not give it a try and see how it goes.
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:25 am    Post subject:

BlueNGold wrote:
We need to give DS some time coming off of the bench.

Him starting may be the long-run answer, but it isn't working great right now. DS and Trez were supposed to be a duo that came off the bench and excelled, so why not give it a try and see how it goes.


It can be managed by staggering minutes more though.

I'm not opposed to going with a Bubble style starting lineup (i.e. start KCP/AC or KCP/Wes).

But I think we are a bit impatient. I want a 20 game sample size first. It's an awkward fit, I get that. But if Dennis isn't a playmaker, why would he be "running" the 2nd unit as a playmaker?
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:36 am    Post subject:

Caruso fits really well with LeBron and Davis because he makes quick reads, sets good screens, can finish or find the open man when someone else sets him up, is an excellent defender, and isn't above doing the dirty work.

You probably wouldn't use many of those descriptors for DS, though his defense has been a pleasant surprise. What Dennis does bring however is the ability to be the initial point of attack, is a better shooter, and has a speed element that puts defenses on their heels.

Ultimately, I like DS as the starter but think he may split duty with Caruso as the finisher in games that count.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:03 am    Post subject:

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CRoost wrote:
It’s so much about an upgrade , it’s about how we utilized our role players and get the most out of them. I think Caruso playing with Lebron is much better fit . They already have established that chemistry.


FWIW Lebron and Caruso together were a +18.6 net rating last season, which is very good. A much smaller sample but Lebron and Schroder are a +23 this season, where Lebron and Caruso are a +13.4. Schroder and Harrel are a -5.8 where Caruso and Harrell are a +32.8. Caruso hasn't played much this season so his samples are very small. But there seems to be this opinion from people here that Schroder and Lebron aren't a fit, or that Schroder would be better suited on the bench. The numbers do not reflect that.


It does not fit because Schröder takes people out of the offensively flow especially AD. There is no rhythm to our offense when he gets the ball because he has that penchant for looking for his own shot and be a black hole to boot albeit at times, he make it look easy. But that will not establish a team rhythm offensively. The offense flows better with Lebron because his vision allows him to give us better shot selection because not only he’s is a willing passer, he also sees movement before anyone else.


Last edited by CRoost on Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:22 am    Post subject:

CRoost wrote:
J.C. Smith wrote:
CRoost wrote:
It’s so much about an upgrade , it’s about how we utilized our role players and get the most out of them. I think Caruso playing with Lebron is much better fit . They already have established that chemistry.


FWIW Lebron and Caruso together were a +18.6 net rating last season, which is very good. A much smaller sample but Lebron and Schroder are a +23 this season, where Lebron and Caruso are a +13.4. Schroder and Harrel are a -5.8 where Caruso and Harrell are a +32.8. Caruso hasn't played much this season so his samples are very small. But there seems to be this opinion from people here that Schroder and Lebron aren't a fit, or that Schroder would be better suited on the bench. The numbers do not reflect that.


It does not fit because Schröder takes people out of the offensively flow especially AD. There is no rhythm to our offense when he gets the ball because he has that penchant for looking for his own shot and be a black hole to boot albeit at times, he make it look easy. But that will establish team rhythm. The offense flows better with Lebron because his vision allows him to give us better shot selection because not only he’s is a willing passer, he also sees movement before anyone else.


the positive net rating with Dennis/LBJ is with them completely new to each other. Meaning, this is probably the LOW point and will get better. I think we missed AC's energy off the bench when he was hurt. But thankfully he's back.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:45 pm    Post subject:

lakersfever714 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
ZeroDark30_ wrote:
lakersfever714 wrote:
I'm having much more confidence in THT as being our longterm solution to be the ballhandler from the bench. Then DS would be irrelevant. We could just get any decent shooter to fill his role. If you asked me today, then I would not give him that 4-year/$83M. That money could be much better spent elsewhere like for an allstar big or something.

Exactly. So far I hope we don’t commit that money to him. He hasn’t showed he deserves that payday on this team. Maybe somewhere else. We could pave the way for THT to become our lead guard instead.


THT is going to need more time to develop. I'm a huge THT fan but I like how they're slowly bringing him up. Dennis will likely be extended. Now, whether that means he retires a Laker is a different question. But the Lakers won't let an asset like him just walk for nothing (and we would only have the MLE to replace him, possibly Trezz, even AC/THT are up for extensions too).


Highly doubt the Lakers would give him that 4 yr/$83M extension but we'll see. I'd rather just get a good defensive guard that could shoot for almost half the price like KCP.


Just to put things in perspective.

1. With an $83 million extension, DS's starting salary would be $18 million. KP's starting salary is $12 million.

2. If we don't resign DS, we will still be over cap. So the most we'll be able to offer anyone is the MLE, which will be $9.7 million. Last year, in a very tight salary cap year, the free agent guards available for that amount were De'Anthony Melton, DJ Augustin, and Rondo.

3. Before the start of the season, the Lakers offered DS a two-year extension starting at about $16 million, which isn't all that far off his starting salary for an $83 million extension. That's the maximum the Lakers could offer at the time and DS turned it down.


Last edited by activeverb on Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:02 pm; edited 3 times in total
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:54 pm    Post subject:

I could see a scenario particularly during the 2nd half of the season were the Lakers brass asks Schroeder to come off the bench to run the 2nd unit especially if the starting line up isn’t clicking in the next few weeks.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:01 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
lakersfever714 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
ZeroDark30_ wrote:
lakersfever714 wrote:
I'm having much more confidence in THT as being our longterm solution to be the ballhandler from the bench. Then DS would be irrelevant. We could just get any decent shooter to fill his role. If you asked me today, then I would not give him that 4-year/$83M. That money could be much better spent elsewhere like for an allstar big or something.

Exactly. So far I hope we don’t commit that money to him. He hasn’t showed he deserves that payday on this team. Maybe somewhere else. We could pave the way for THT to become our lead guard instead.


THT is going to need more time to develop. I'm a huge THT fan but I like how they're slowly bringing him up. Dennis will likely be extended. Now, whether that means he retires a Laker is a different question. But the Lakers won't let an asset like him just walk for nothing (and we would only have the MLE to replace him, possibly Trezz, even AC/THT are up for extensions too).


Highly doubt the Lakers would give him that 4 yr/$83M extension but we'll see. I'd rather just get a good defensive guard that could shoot for almost half the price like KCP.


Just to put things in perspective.

1. With an $83 million extension, DS's starting salary would be $18 million. KP's starting salary is $12 million.

2. If we don't resign DS, we will still be over cap. So the most we'll be able to offer anyone is the MLE, which will be $9.7 million. The guards who will be available for that amount are probably not as good as you imagine. Last year, in a very tight salary cap year, the guards available for that amount were De'Anthony Melton, DJ Augustin, and Rondo.

3. Before the start of the season, the Lakers offered DS a two-year extension starting at about $16 million, which isn't all that far off his starting salary for an $83 million extension. That's the maximum the Lakers could offer at the time and DS turned it down.


I guess we could trade him for a big. Our issue is the lack of rim protection that just cripples our defense. Danny Green or Dennis Schroder would have made little difference at that position so any replacement for him would be fine.

Inspector Gadget wrote:
I could see a scenario particularly during the 2nd half of the season were the Lakers brass asks Schroeder to come off the bench to run the 2nd unit especially if the starting line up isn’t clicking in the next few weeks.


He turned down our 2-year offer so he's definitely looking to get paid. There's no way he would agree to coming off the bench. It's his contract year so he's trying to impress and wants the minutes. Rob got us into this mess so he's gotta get us out of it.
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:10 pm    Post subject:

Mess? Good lord, we're 9 games in and we're 3rd in the West basically playing with our warmups on.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:17 pm    Post subject:

lakersfever714 wrote:
He turned down our 2-year offer so he's definitely looking to get paid. There's no way he would agree to coming off the bench. It's his contract year so he's trying to impress and wants the minutes. Rob got us into this mess so he's gotta get us out of it.


The point of the two year extension is that was the maximum we could offer before the season. It wasn't like the Lakers were lowballing him. We offered him the most we could at the time.

After the season, we can offer a four-year extension starting at a slightly higher salary.

My guess is that is what will happen.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:29 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
lakersfever714 wrote:
He turned down our 2-year offer so he's definitely looking to get paid. There's no way he would agree to coming off the bench. It's his contract year so he's trying to impress and wants the minutes. Rob got us into this mess so he's gotta get us out of it.


The point of the two year extension is that was the maximum we could offer before the season. It wasn't like the Lakers were lowballing him. We offered him the most we could at the time.

After the season, we can offer a four-year extension starting at a slightly higher salary.

My guess is that is what will happen.


It's actually sooner. IIRC, 2/16 is when Lakers can offer a 4 year deal.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:25 pm    Post subject:

Hopefully after we sign him in February we can move him to the bench. I don’t expect him to still be starting come playoff time. We’ll likely experiment with Kuz or AC but Wes will likely be in the starting lineup with KCP.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:29 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Mess? Good lord, we're 9 games in and we're 3rd in the West basically playing with our warmups on.

I thought you were exaggerating but just checked. We really dropped to 3 with that stupid lost.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2021 5:08 pm    Post subject:

The problem is DS is not a playmaker like Rondo.
But he. is a better shooter and defender.
The Lakers do need to find a player who is a real playmaker.
But they are hard to find, and usually they don't stand out in bad teams.

Maybe DS can learn to run a team from Lebron.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:04 am    Post subject:

Still too many turnovers, but at least most seem to be from forcing passes to teammates. He's trying hard (too hard) to run the team properly. I have no doubt this tendency will get better as he settles down.

Otherwise, scoring and playing the right way in the 4th when the game is on the line = hallmark of a 60 million player . He's going to be our third/fourth most important player by the end of this year. Lakers had better get ready.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:15 am    Post subject:

I like Dennis, but the team impact numbers so far look very bad for him. If you compare his O rating to Danny Green, or his O BPM they are all poor so far. All favor Green. But Green should be compared to Wesley as roles are different. So look at Caruso, his role is identical to Dennis. The numbers really stick out.

O rating
Dennis 101
Danny 108 (19-20 season)
Caruso 115

O BPM
Dennis -2.9
Danny -1.1 (19-20 season)
Caruso 0.2

There are still improvements that can be made, and I do not think we should be offering this dude 80M over 4 years, before we see what he can do in the playoffs. If Rob gets a bargain, I would support that (15M a year 3 year deal) as even if it does not work out, it is an asset for trade (See Kuz).

The 2 man games with Bron, and how he played in the 2nd half was winning basketball. I know the overall aggregate numbers make Dennis look solid, but honestly his OBPM and Orating are horrendous. He can still play a lot better, sort of like how he played in the 2nd half. Once we get that Bron 2 man game going with him and he slows down, he is very very good.

I thought the way he played in the 2nd half was very good, and effective, those 1-3 two man games with Bron, give the Lakers a completely different scoring option in the clutch, a weapon we did not possess last year. When LA gets that 1-3 pick and roll run, with AD out there as well at the 5, it will be very tough to defend in crunch time. He can be a major asset in that situation and that is the current big value I see in him. He has developed some good chemistry with Bron sort of like Alex has. That is vital.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:09 pm    Post subject:

Since I do critique him when he plays (what I see as selfish, low IQ ball) I will gladly give him credit when that is not the case.

Best game of his Laker career so far. Incredible D, deflections, activity, and then really looked to set up the bigs and teammates, instead of looking for his own number. He played like Caruso-THT play, only he is more skilled than Alex by a lot, and thus way more impactful when he plays like this.

If Dennis can bottle this up, it will be amazing. Teams will begin to play him for a pass as well, and double AD-Trez-Bron etc and he will have wide open layups all game long, as well as open 3s. Only he is so much more effective as a scorer than Alex. Bottle this up, DS.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:24 pm    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
Since I do critique him when he plays (what I see as selfish, low IQ ball) I will gladly give him credit when that is not the case.

Best game of his Laker career so far. Incredible D, deflections, activity, and then really looked to set up the bigs and teammates, instead of looking for his own number. He played like Caruso-THT play, only he is more skilled than Alex by a lot, and thus way more impactful when he plays like this.

If Dennis can bottle this up, it will be amazing. Teams will begin to play him for a pass as well, and double AD-Trez-Bron etc and he will have wide open layups all game long, as well as open 3s. Only he is so much more effective as a scorer than Alex. Bottle this up, DS.

Dennis is not nearly as low IQ or selfish as some on this board make him out to be.

Yeah, once in a while he'll make a play that's selfish and/or low IQ, but I've seen him make plenty of smart, good, sound passes and plays for his teammates this season.

My criticism of him is that he's not being aggressive enough. He's not shooting the ball enough for a player of his caliber. He needs to look for his shot a little more often within the context of our offense without getting out of control or taking bad shots.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:44 pm    Post subject:

He played the Rondo role well tonight.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:47 pm    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
I like Dennis, but the team impact numbers so far look very bad for him. If you compare his O rating to Danny Green, or his O BPM they are all poor so far.


I'm a bit iffy on the advanced stats at Basketball-reference these days, as its an advanced stat. ORating typically was a reflection of how many points your team scores per possession when you were on the court and DRating how many you gave up. But you might notice that the official NBA versions of those are way different from basketball-refence's.

NBA.com has Schroder with a 115 ORating and a +7 net rating, where Basketball-reference has him with a 101 ORating and a -8 net. I looked into why as that was baffling me and it's in the calculations.

NBA.com's offensive rating is: 100*((Points)/(POSS) which is what I normally think of when I think of those ratings the points scored and allowed per possession when on/off court.

Basketball-reference ORating is more like a Hollinger rating with a bunch of stuff going into it. It's too complex to post here but you can find the details here: https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ratings.html

Their offensive rating is factoring in all sorts of things like team assists, team offensive rebounds, and things of that nature into the calculation and weighting the players contributions to each of those areas.

As of right now the three worst Lakers in ORating are Kuzma, Schroder, THT, Markieff, AD, Lebron, and Alex Caruso in that order. They are the bottom 8 on the team discounting Kostas whose only played in 1 game.

Meanwhile the Lakers top players in ORating are Dudley, McKinnie, Cook, Matthews, KCP, Trez, and Gasol, in that order.

Hard to read too much into those since many of those are garbage time players, but when Dudley has an ORating of 261 while Kuzma and Schroder have an ORating of 101 it does show you something is off with that stat. So I'd take it the same way you take something like PER its a reflection of something but I'd be leery of it. That having been said, Caruso does well in general in his on/off performance all around.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 7:47 am    Post subject:

I am not a big numbers to make your argument guy, JC. So I am cool with your post, I just think what we saw last night is the real value you get from the PG position around AD-Bron. The PGs (Dennis included played incredible) were getting the ball to our post players and cutters or wings, and play elite D. There was very little 1 on 4 stuff, and when screen&rolls were ran, it was with the intention to look for the roller just as much as to take your own shot. If the dynamic combo guard trio of Dennis, Alex and Talen do that in the playoffs, I could care less about the numbers or who plays at what spot or minutes, I know that they are doing all you can ask. Hopefully this identity win shows these guys what kind of basketball they should be striving to play.

As a passer-ballhandler:

1) Find the paint or players in the paint
2) Find the open 3 point shooters
3) Pull up J if given space by your defender
4) Drive if the interior D is weak and you see driving angles.

Just the way we play, when we play well, it is going to be highly unlikely IMO that we have a 3rd guy that should be taking 15 shots a game and averaging 17-18 ppg regularly. The way Dennis closed out the Bulls second half and how he played the Rockets game, was fantastic. That is the way a championship level PG starting around AD-Bron should play. Numbers will be what they are (whether team or individual) but his play speaks volumes the last 3 halves even though the individual numbers may not. Ditto for Talent and Alex, their numbers are not outstanding but they played very very well.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 8:46 am    Post subject:

I loved Dennis's game last night.

What is really nice to have is his burst when he does decide to decisively attack the rim. He has to cut out the non-chalant passing into the post or to LBJ/AD. Make it purposeful. I think Vogel/coaching staff will get into his ear about that and he will work on it all year long.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:16 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
I loved Dennis's game last night.

What is really nice to have is his burst when he does decide to decisively attack the rim. He has to cut out the non-chalant passing into the post or to LBJ/AD. Make it purposeful. I think Vogel/coaching staff will get into his ear about that and he will work on it all year long.


...and they getting to his ear. People tends to forget that our assistant HC is Jason Kidd. Just remember last year before the bubble. When Rondo has the first of his series of injuries, A Caruso has to take the backup PG duties, although at the moment he was very shaky. Step by step, Kidd & Handy has developed Caruso in a dependable PG. This year, they will deal with Dennis and THT. I am sure they will focus on Post passing, and Screen and Roll passing.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:13 pm    Post subject:

I agree on last nights game. That was the good balance for him. He didn't score a lot because he didn't shoot the ball particularly well (for the past few games really). His ability to score is important though too as the threat of him scoring or his ability to put up points when maybe other things are stalled (along with Trez's). AD is the Lakers best offensive weapon imo, we need to see Schroder find some good chemistry with him and Trez to maximize the teams potential.

THT has impressed me the past few games. He's strung together some good ones. I'm wary about relying too much on a 20 year old who only has a handful of games under his belt but he's earning some minutes. Right now there have been plenty to go around because either KCP, Caruso, or Matthews has been out for a while now. There are going to be some tough playtime decisions for Vogel as the year goes on with all of these guys.
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