Thank you MARC GASOL - traded with 2024 second pick to Memphis
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ocho
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 10:51 am    Post subject:

If you’re looking at Ortg, the team is +11 when Gasol is on the court vs off. Gasol has a better DBPM than McGee. We’re #5 in Offense, #1 in Defense and #1 in net rating and we have the best record in the league.

What are we doing here, guys?
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 10:57 am    Post subject:

ocho wrote:
If you’re looking at Ortg, the team is +11 when Gasol is on the court vs off. Gasol has a better DBPM than McGee. We’re #5 in Offense, #1 in Defense and #1 in net rating and we have the best record in the league.

What are we doing here, guys?


The Clipper Trolls are orgasming over PG on the Lakers/Clippers thread, while simultaneously crapping on all of the Lakers players on the other threads. It's just a factor of the Clippers Online Community being relatively dead (in comparison to the Lakers Online Community). It's more fun for them to come over here and throw poop than to hang out with their own.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 11:27 am    Post subject:

lakerican wrote:
What is this? Your chapter 3 of your JMcGee thesis?


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SPO200
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 11:51 am    Post subject:

We couldn't use McGee in the playoffs, which is the only thing that matters. We don't know if Gasol will give us something, but we know that McGee wouldn't give anything of value there.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 12:13 pm    Post subject:

ocho wrote:
If you’re looking at Ortg, the team is +11 when Gasol is on the court vs off. Gasol has a better DBPM than McGee. We’re #5 in Offense, #1 in Defense and #1 in net rating and we have the best record in the league.

What are we doing here, guys?


We're waiting to beat the Clips straight up like last year. And the 76ers and the Celts. Simple.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 3:36 pm    Post subject:

ocho wrote:
If you’re looking at Ortg, the team is +11 when Gasol is on the court vs off. Gasol has a better DBPM than McGee. We’re #5 in Offense, #1 in Defense and #1 in net rating and we have the best record in the league.

What are we doing here, guys?

It is nice to see that reasonable posters are starting to challenge the narrative that McGee+Howard > Gasol + Harrell.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 3:50 pm    Post subject:

troy wrote:
I felt I made a legit argument of what McGee offered vs. what Gasol offers. Forget about the state sheet, for a moment. Lets go by what we, as fans, can see:

McGee vs Gasol
_________________________________
Defense-

Rim protection: McGee wins easily. Gasol simply cannot jump anymore

Positional defense (eg movement to anticipatory and help positions): McGee wins. McGee is quicker with his footwork. Although Gasol has the better IQ in this regard, he doesn't have the physical ability to do what his mind has already figured out.

Wingspan: McGee wins. Just physically more gifted than Gasol.

Intimidation factor: McGee wins. Nobody is hesitant to drive into Gasol, and there has been ample evidence of that this season.

Defensive IQ - Gasol wins. That said, without the corresponding physical ability to manifest a good defensive mindset, this category is mute.

WINNER FOR THIS CATEGORY - Javelle McGee. He is more athletic, more active, quicker, and more intimidating than Gasol.
________________________________________

Offense-

BacktoBasket moves - McGee wins. Not by much, however. Neither McGee nor Gasol are asked to do much offensively, but McGee does have better moves in the key than Gasol.

Short/medium range: Gasol wins. Gasol has a hook shot and a fairly good set shot from mid-range. Unfortunately, Gasol doesn't shoot very much for this to be a viable category for him.

alley-oop/lob dunks: McGee wins. McGee can use his vertical ability here, whereas Gasol probably can't jump more than 5 inches off the ground. Alley-oops and lob duns are plays that are morale boosters and easy points, and as such, are very effective.

putbacks: McGee wins. McGee is much more active at and above the rim, whereas Gasol seems slow afoot and cannot outjump his opponents.

3 point shot: Gasol wins. Easy winner here for Gasol, but although his percentage seems high, it's because he doesn't shoot very many 3 pointers vs what he has made.

WINNER FOR THIS CATEGORY - McGee. McGee is more capable of scoring points off lobs and putbacks, which are more common opportunities for both centers, than set plays are for them. Although Gasol is the better 3point threat, he doesn't shoot enough of them for it to make a difference in games.

_____________________

Rebounding-

Offensive - McGee wins. He plays closer to the rim, and he has the physical ability to get to the rebounded ball. Gasol is more of a stretch 5, so he's not always in position to get offensive rebounds. In addition, his lack of mobility versus McGee hurts him regarding actually getting to rebound that don't come directly to him.

Defensive - McGee wins. McGee is a go-to-the-ball, above the rim rebounder which means he's able to go to where the ball is and physically get to it quicker and more often than his opponents. Gasol simply cannot jump high enough or move fast enough to get to the ball, so all his rebounds are those that come to him.

WINNER FOR THIS CATEGORY - McGee. Gasol simply doesn't have the physical capabilities to do the things McGee can.
___________________________________

Passing-

Gasol wins, easily. Gasol is an excellent passer. His knowledge of player movement affords him the ability to make passes in tight spots and anticipate where his teammates will be. McGee never seemed like he had the IQ to make quality passes.

WINNER FOR THIS CATEGORY - Marc Gasol. Gasol is a much better passer, which theoretically should lead to more assists. However, because of the presence of ball handlers DS, and especially AD and Lebron, Gasol isn't put into positions to take advantage of his passing ability.
__________________________________

Intangibles- McGee is better on the fast break, he fits better with the Laker's defensive scheme, and his ability to protect the rim intimidates offensive players from driving into the teeth of the Laker defense. Gasol is the smarter player. He is a good 3 point shooter and his passing ability sets up scores, when he's made a part of that stage of the offensive flow.

SUMMARY -

Most of the better NBA teams have proficient scorers on their teams. But what makes champions stand apart from the rest is the ability to deploy a defensive plan in the playoffs/finals that can at least slow down some of the offensive charge from the opponents. Missed shots forced by good defense by the Lakers must be rebounded, and we don't want to wear down or get AD into foul trouble doing the work that a competent center should do. While 3 point shooting and assists are good things, the Lakers have that covered by other players at other positions. Rim protection and quality defense, along with competent rebounding, tends to be center-specific attributes. This is where McGee, and not Gasol, is more valuable.

Where I could see the direct contributions to the Lakers success when McGee was playing, I don't see what Gasol contributes, at least at significant scale.

Conclusion- Although Gasol has something to offer, it's clear that he's on the Lakers are a last option, and not the preferred option. Rob Pelinka did an incredible job getting DS and Montrez here, but he failed miserable by letting both McGee and Dwight go. Gasol is a placeholder center; the booby price, a concession. He is here because we simply couldn't keep our better players, and there was no one else out there (after we lost out on Ibaka). In a direct comparison, McGee is the better option. But he's not here, so we have to rely on what few minutes we can use Gasol in there, before we can use Harrel. Come playoffs, opposing teams will exploit Gasol as our weak link; lets hope we have enough to compensate for this.




McGee - UNPLAYABLE IN THE PLAYOFFS. He was also TERRIBLE ON DEFENSE. He got a lot of his blocks because he didn’t move his feet at all to counter penetration and relied on his athleticism to chase down the guard or SF to get the block, which was pretty the one time a game he got that, but ugly as hell when he didn’t. He also got overpowered like crazy by any center with any kind of size. He played filler minutes for us in the regular season (and I remember a lot of times people (bleep) about the starting lineup digging us holes in the regular season and McGee was certainly one of the targets there) and was completely unplayable in the actual important games in the playoffs.

This whole thing is ridiculous. McGee is hardly a guy anyone should be pining for. He was a great chemistry guy, and that was basically it. He almost never closed games for us and In the playoffs his entire role was basically to replace that one flashy Laker fan with the near court side seats who customized signs to hold up for each individual player, and that was it. He had some great sideline celebrations during winning time, but didn’t actually contribute to anything on the floor.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 5:07 pm    Post subject:

troy wrote:
I felt I made a legit argument of what McGee offered vs. what Gasol offers. Forget about the state sheet, for a moment. Lets go by what we, as fans, can see:

That is the problem. Eyewitness testimony is very biased. We see what we want to see (confirmation bias). It is the stat sheet or other objective evidence on the basketball court (or DNA in a judicial court) that helps validate what we think we are seeing. Below is a quote from an article that explains why eyewitness testimony is so unreliable in court cases. The actual article is much longer--but it is a great read.
Quote:
The claim that eyewitness testimony is reliable and accurate is testable, and the research is clear that eyewitness identification is vulnerable to distortion without the witness’s awareness. More specifically, the assumption that memory provides an accurate recording of experience, much like a video camera, is incorrect. Memory evolved to give us a personal sense of identity and to guide our actions. We are biased to notice and exaggerate some experiences and to minimize or overlook others. Memory is malleable.
.......
Memory doesn’t record our experiences like a video camera. It creates stories based on those experiences. The stories are sometimes uncannily accurate, sometimes completely fictional, and often a mixture of the two; and they can change to suit the situation. Eyewitness testimony is a potent form of evidence for convicting the accused, but it is subject to unconscious memory distortions and biases even among the most confident of witnesses. So memory can be remarkably accurate or remarkably inaccurate. Without objective evidence, the two are indistinguishable.

Link
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troy
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 5:32 pm    Post subject:

SPO200 wrote:
We couldn't use McGee in the playoffs, which is the only thing that matters. We don't know if Gasol will give us something, but we know that McGee wouldn't give anything of value there.


We didn't go with McGee so much because we had Dwight. But Rob got rid of Dwight, too. I'd rather go in with McGee/Harrell than anything Gasol.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 5:35 pm    Post subject:

Annihilator wrote:
ocho wrote:
If you’re looking at Ortg, the team is +11 when Gasol is on the court vs off. Gasol has a better DBPM than McGee. We’re #5 in Offense, #1 in Defense and #1 in net rating and we have the best record in the league.

What are we doing here, guys?

It is nice to see that reasonable posters are starting to challenge the narrative that McGee+Howard > Gasol + Harrell.


There's nothing to challenge. McGee/Howard are better than Gasol. Harrell is an excellent addition, but Gasol was a last ditch option. His presence on my Lakers team is due to Rob's failure to sign Dwight, McGee and Ibaka. There's absolutely nothing to challenge McGee, Howard and Ibaka are better players than Gasol.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 5:36 pm    Post subject:

troy wrote:
Annihilator wrote:
ocho wrote:
If you’re looking at Ortg, the team is +11 when Gasol is on the court vs off. Gasol has a better DBPM than McGee. We’re #5 in Offense, #1 in Defense and #1 in net rating and we have the best record in the league.

What are we doing here, guys?

It is nice to see that reasonable posters are starting to challenge the narrative that McGee+Howard > Gasol + Harrell.


There's nothing to challenge. McGee/Howard are better than Gasol. Harrell is an excellent addition, but Gasol was a last ditch option. His presence on my Lakers team is due to Rob's failure to sign Dwight, McGee and Ibaka. There's absolutely nothing to challenge McGee, Howard and Ibaka are better players than Gasol.


Ahhh. Yes. Assertions as "facts." That worked out swell the last four years....
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 5:36 pm    Post subject:

mhan00 wrote:
troy wrote:
I felt I made a legit argument of what McGee offered vs. what Gasol offers. Forget about the state sheet, for a moment. Lets go by what we, as fans, can see:

McGee vs Gasol
_________________________________
Defense-

Rim protection: McGee wins easily. Gasol simply cannot jump anymore

Positional defense (eg movement to anticipatory and help positions): McGee wins. McGee is quicker with his footwork. Although Gasol has the better IQ in this regard, he doesn't have the physical ability to do what his mind has already figured out.

Wingspan: McGee wins. Just physically more gifted than Gasol.

Intimidation factor: McGee wins. Nobody is hesitant to drive into Gasol, and there has been ample evidence of that this season.

Defensive IQ - Gasol wins. That said, without the corresponding physical ability to manifest a good defensive mindset, this category is mute.

WINNER FOR THIS CATEGORY - Javelle McGee. He is more athletic, more active, quicker, and more intimidating than Gasol.
________________________________________

Offense-

BacktoBasket moves - McGee wins. Not by much, however. Neither McGee nor Gasol are asked to do much offensively, but McGee does have better moves in the key than Gasol.

Short/medium range: Gasol wins. Gasol has a hook shot and a fairly good set shot from mid-range. Unfortunately, Gasol doesn't shoot very much for this to be a viable category for him.

alley-oop/lob dunks: McGee wins. McGee can use his vertical ability here, whereas Gasol probably can't jump more than 5 inches off the ground. Alley-oops and lob duns are plays that are morale boosters and easy points, and as such, are very effective.

putbacks: McGee wins. McGee is much more active at and above the rim, whereas Gasol seems slow afoot and cannot outjump his opponents.

3 point shot: Gasol wins. Easy winner here for Gasol, but although his percentage seems high, it's because he doesn't shoot very many 3 pointers vs what he has made.

WINNER FOR THIS CATEGORY - McGee. McGee is more capable of scoring points off lobs and putbacks, which are more common opportunities for both centers, than set plays are for them. Although Gasol is the better 3point threat, he doesn't shoot enough of them for it to make a difference in games.

_____________________

Rebounding-

Offensive - McGee wins. He plays closer to the rim, and he has the physical ability to get to the rebounded ball. Gasol is more of a stretch 5, so he's not always in position to get offensive rebounds. In addition, his lack of mobility versus McGee hurts him regarding actually getting to rebound that don't come directly to him.

Defensive - McGee wins. McGee is a go-to-the-ball, above the rim rebounder which means he's able to go to where the ball is and physically get to it quicker and more often than his opponents. Gasol simply cannot jump high enough or move fast enough to get to the ball, so all his rebounds are those that come to him.

WINNER FOR THIS CATEGORY - McGee. Gasol simply doesn't have the physical capabilities to do the things McGee can.
___________________________________

Passing-

Gasol wins, easily. Gasol is an excellent passer. His knowledge of player movement affords him the ability to make passes in tight spots and anticipate where his teammates will be. McGee never seemed like he had the IQ to make quality passes.

WINNER FOR THIS CATEGORY - Marc Gasol. Gasol is a much better passer, which theoretically should lead to more assists. However, because of the presence of ball handlers DS, and especially AD and Lebron, Gasol isn't put into positions to take advantage of his passing ability.
__________________________________

Intangibles- McGee is better on the fast break, he fits better with the Laker's defensive scheme, and his ability to protect the rim intimidates offensive players from driving into the teeth of the Laker defense. Gasol is the smarter player. He is a good 3 point shooter and his passing ability sets up scores, when he's made a part of that stage of the offensive flow.

SUMMARY -

Most of the better NBA teams have proficient scorers on their teams. But what makes champions stand apart from the rest is the ability to deploy a defensive plan in the playoffs/finals that can at least slow down some of the offensive charge from the opponents. Missed shots forced by good defense by the Lakers must be rebounded, and we don't want to wear down or get AD into foul trouble doing the work that a competent center should do. While 3 point shooting and assists are good things, the Lakers have that covered by other players at other positions. Rim protection and quality defense, along with competent rebounding, tends to be center-specific attributes. This is where McGee, and not Gasol, is more valuable.

Where I could see the direct contributions to the Lakers success when McGee was playing, I don't see what Gasol contributes, at least at significant scale.

Conclusion- Although Gasol has something to offer, it's clear that he's on the Lakers are a last option, and not the preferred option. Rob Pelinka did an incredible job getting DS and Montrez here, but he failed miserable by letting both McGee and Dwight go. Gasol is a placeholder center; the booby price, a concession. He is here because we simply couldn't keep our better players, and there was no one else out there (after we lost out on Ibaka). In a direct comparison, McGee is the better option. But he's not here, so we have to rely on what few minutes we can use Gasol in there, before we can use Harrel. Come playoffs, opposing teams will exploit Gasol as our weak link; lets hope we have enough to compensate for this.




McGee - UNPLAYABLE IN THE PLAYOFFS. He was also TERRIBLE ON DEFENSE. He got a lot of his blocks because he didn’t move his feet at all to counter penetration and relied on his athleticism to chase down the guard or SF to get the block, which was pretty the one time a game he got that, but ugly as hell when he didn’t. He also got overpowered like crazy by any center with any kind of size. He played filler minutes for us in the regular season (and I remember a lot of times people (bleep) about the starting lineup digging us holes in the regular season and McGee was certainly one of the targets there) and was completely unplayable in the actual important games in the playoffs.

This whole thing is ridiculous. McGee is hardly a guy anyone should be pining for. He was a great chemistry guy, and that was basically it. He almost never closed games for us and In the playoffs his entire role was basically to replace that one flashy Laker fan with the near court side seats who customized signs to hold up for each individual player, and that was it. He had some great sideline celebrations during winning time, but didn’t actually contribute to anything on the floor.


Is that we won our first Championship in years with McGee starting at our center? A McGee/Harrell combo would be much more impactful than this Gasol/Harrell combo we're stuck with.
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troy
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 5:41 pm    Post subject:

Annihilator wrote:
troy wrote:
I felt I made a legit argument of what McGee offered vs. what Gasol offers. Forget about the state sheet, for a moment. Lets go by what we, as fans, can see:

That is the problem. Eyewitness testimony is very biased. We see what we want to see (confirmation bias). It is the stat sheet or other objective evidence on the basketball court (or DNA in a judicial court) that helps validate what we think we are seeing. Below is a quote from an article that explains why eyewitness testimony is so unreliable in court cases. The actual article is much longer--but it is a great read.
Quote:
The claim that eyewitness testimony is reliable and accurate is testable, and the research is clear that eyewitness identification is vulnerable to distortion without the witness’s awareness. More specifically, the assumption that memory provides an accurate recording of experience, much like a video camera, is incorrect. Memory evolved to give us a personal sense of identity and to guide our actions. We are biased to notice and exaggerate some experiences and to minimize or overlook others. Memory is malleable.
.......
Memory doesn’t record our experiences like a video camera. It creates stories based on those experiences. The stories are sometimes uncannily accurate, sometimes completely fictional, and often a mixture of the two; and they can change to suit the situation. Eyewitness testimony is a potent form of evidence for convicting the accused, but it is subject to unconscious memory distortions and biases even among the most confident of witnesses. So memory can be remarkably accurate or remarkably inaccurate. Without objective evidence, the two are indistinguishable.

Link


I think it's reasonable to conclude that McGee is a better center than Gasol. Not sure why seems to offend some of you. If you don't agree than please feel free to engage my analysis between the two players and refute what I wrote. No one has been able to do that as of yet...
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 6:10 pm    Post subject:

I like the Gasol pickup, but I think the ideal combo would have been Gasol + McGee or Dwight; not Trez. I mean I like what Trez brings energywise and as another scoring threat off the bench though, and I think it can still work out. I just think we could have plugged the hole we create if we lost Harrell easier than plugging the hole we now have from losing dwight and Javale.
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mhan00
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 6:11 pm    Post subject:

McGee starting at center when we won our championship? HE DIDNT PLAY IN THE PLAYOFFS after the first round.
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mhan00
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 6:22 pm    Post subject:

Missing Dwight makes sense. McGee? Lmao. Loved the guy for his chemistry, don’t care at all about losing him on the court.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 6:24 pm    Post subject:

troy wrote:

<snip>

I think it's reasonable to conclude that McGee is a better center than Gasol. Not sure why seems to offend some of you. If you don't agree than please feel free to engage my analysis between the two players and refute what I wrote. No one has been able to do that as of yet...


I'm not sure how to even try to refute since you've casually dismissed all data/observation.

As another poster has pointed out re: confirmation bias, at some point your opinion / what you see has to translate into measurable tangible differences e.g. wins, win-shares, point differentials, offensive/defensive ratings, point per possessions, coach-granted minutes, something, anything. But you rule out the possibility of any measurement by saying "Forget about the state sheet, for a moment"; well if all we go by is opinion and ignore any/all measurements, then the heavens will continue to revolve around us and all opinions will remain valid forever.


Last edited by ThePageDude on Mon Jan 25, 2021 5:24 am; edited 3 times in total
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 6:26 pm    Post subject:

mhan00 wrote:
Missing Dwight makes sense. McGee? Lmao. Loved the guy for his chemistry, don’t care at all about losing him on the court.


McGee can't even get on the court with the Cavs... Gasol's IQ alone over McGee as a complete player.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 7:06 pm    Post subject:

miggz23 wrote:
mhan00 wrote:
Missing Dwight makes sense. McGee? Lmao. Loved the guy for his chemistry, don’t care at all about losing him on the court.


McGee can't even get on the court with the Cavs... Gasol's IQ alone over McGee as a complete player.


Not many times I am legitimately shocked at posts but that one got me considering it was an actually long thought out post and that was still there conclusion . Anyone pining that hard for McGee is a little lost I think.

I get a little frustration over Dwight but McGee? Jesus Christ.......
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 7:21 pm    Post subject:

This is the most cringe worthy hill to die on that I've seen on LG. Well done.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 7:21 pm    Post subject:

hype wrote:
miggz23 wrote:
mhan00 wrote:
Missing Dwight makes sense. McGee? Lmao. Loved the guy for his chemistry, don’t care at all about losing him on the court.


McGee can't even get on the court with the Cavs... Gasol's IQ alone over McGee as a complete player.


Not many times I am legitimately shocked at posts but that one got me considering it was an actually long thought out post and that was still there conclusion . Anyone pining that hard for McGee is a little lost I think.

I get a little frustration over Dwight but McGee? Jesus Christ.......


Here some advance stats...

McGee as a starter last year:
DRTG:101
WS:.198
OBPM:-0.6
DBPM:2.1
BPM:1.5
VORP:1.0
TS%:.652
USG%:14.8

Gasol as a starter this year:
DRTG:100
WS:.137
OBPM:-2.6
DBPM:2.9
BPM:0.3
VORP:0.2
TS%:.583
USG%:10.4
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2021 4:39 am    Post subject:

jonnybravo wrote:
This is the most cringe worthy hill to die on that I've seen on LG. Well done.


I see LG members having a discussion.. Which is the whole point of this forum. Nothing cringe worthy here.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2021 7:25 am    Post subject:

mhan00 wrote:
McGee starting at center when we won our championship? HE DIDNT PLAY IN THE PLAYOFFS after the first round.


It's because we had Dwight, a better version of McGee. And we had Davis to play the 5, when necessary.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2021 7:28 am    Post subject:

miggz23 wrote:
hype wrote:
miggz23 wrote:
mhan00 wrote:
Missing Dwight makes sense. McGee? Lmao. Loved the guy for his chemistry, don’t care at all about losing him on the court.


McGee can't even get on the court with the Cavs... Gasol's IQ alone over McGee as a complete player.


Not many times I am legitimately shocked at posts but that one got me considering it was an actually long thought out post and that was still there conclusion . Anyone pining that hard for McGee is a little lost I think.

I get a little frustration over Dwight but McGee? Jesus Christ.......


Here some advance stats...

McGee as a starter last year:
DRTG:101
WS:.198
OBPM:-0.6
DBPM:2.1
BPM:1.5
VORP:1.0
TS%:.652
USG%:14.8

Gasol as a starter this year:
DRTG:100
WS:.137
OBPM:-2.6
DBPM:2.9
BPM:0.3
VORP:0.2
TS%:.583
USG%:10.4


Context is necessary. My point is that with Javele McGee available for trade, we should go for him. This brought out the contention that Gasol is better than McGee, which I disagreed with. A few posters brought out some mundane stats to support their side, and I drafted my analysis to refute. It's just all good and fun discussion amongst Lakers fans in a Lakers discussion forum.
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troy
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Joined: 30 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2021 7:30 am    Post subject:

pokoy wrote:
I like the Gasol pickup, but I think the ideal combo would have been Gasol + McGee or Dwight; not Trez. I mean I like what Trez brings energywise and as another scoring threat off the bench though, and I think it can still work out. I just think we could have plugged the hole we create if we lost Harrell easier than plugging the hole we now have from losing dwight and Javale.


Very interesting take.
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