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lar9149
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:09 pm    Post subject:

Nash Vegas wrote:
Clark Kent wrote:
Nash Vegas wrote:
cannga11 wrote:
Nash Vegas wrote:
17 points and 14 great numbers off the bench! But.... he also was a team worse +/- so whenever he was on the floor Lakers would go down -11.

So what does that say?


IMHO, says that +/- is useless, especially in ONE game. Kuzma was "better," at -6. Matthews, whose 4 three's turn the game around, had same value as Kuzma, at -6. Etc.


+/- is never useless. It literally is telling you something, screaming for help. If it was useless, Caruso would still be playing in the G League.


The +\- says that even though Montrezl scored 17 points, he help give up 28 points to the other team. In other words a liability on defense.


Bingo!


+/- in one game is probably useless..now over a large sample of games its a different story like Caruso. I couldn't find Harrell's +/- for the season.
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cannga11
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:27 am    Post subject:

lar9149 wrote:
Nash Vegas wrote:
Clark Kent wrote:
Nash Vegas wrote:
cannga11 wrote:
Nash Vegas wrote:
17 points and 14 great numbers off the bench! But.... he also was a team worse +/- so whenever he was on the floor Lakers would go down -11.

So what does that say?


IMHO, says that +/- is useless, especially in ONE game. Kuzma was "better," at -6. Matthews, whose 4 three's turn the game around, had same value as Kuzma, at -6. Etc.


+/- is never useless. It literally is telling you something, screaming for help. If it was useless, Caruso would still be playing in the G League.


The +\- says that even though Montrezl scored 17 points, he help give up 28 points to the other team. In other words a liability on defense.


Bingo!


+/- in one game is probably useless. now over a large sample of games its a different story like Caruso[/b]. I couldn't find Harrell's +/- for the season.


Agreed. +/- stat does have value, but should not be used as the only measurement of whether a player has contributed to the game. Let alone one game. For example in this same game, Kuzma is +/- minus 6. Kuzma has a "meaningless" game, but has a "better" +/- number than Harrell.

Much more meaningful to look at stats over more than one game, the more the better. Box Plus Minus for NBA playoff 2020 is here: https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2020_advanced.html#advanced_stats::bpm
Even so, there are outliers, of note:
Caruso and Harrell tied at -.5, ranked 65 out of 95
Jerami Grant is at the bottom of the list, ranked 86 out of 95.

Caruso's and particularly Jerami Grant's stat to me are examples of how there are always exceptions and stats should never be the lone number to look at - have to be used in context. Grant would not be making 60 millions if professionals use Box Plus Minus as lone judge. Interesting discussion. All IMHO.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 6:51 pm    Post subject:

His best game imo. Good on both ends.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 8:01 am    Post subject:

Difference in this game was that Trez was not a liability on D. It was a good match up for him on D, as the Rockets do not have an imposing Center or big that plays in the paint. That and the defensive pressure our 4-3-2-1s were providing to our 5s made the job of Gasol-Trez much easier.

His post game started off awful, but we stayed with him, trusted him, and he rewarded it in the 2nd half. He was killing them. He legit is a go to guy in the paint. It is really weird how the Lakers have brought the post game back to the NBA (AD, Bron, Trez all post up a lot) and yet few mention it .....
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:44 am    Post subject:

+/- is more indicative of a player's impact on a team. Keyword is impact. It measures how good or bad a fit he is in the current lineup with the team.

With that said, I honestly would rather have a player with a +pos rating while having low #'s over a player with high #'s but a -neg rating which is the whole "Kevin Love puts up empty #'s in Minnesota" argument. A +pos at least means that the team is winning, and the team winning is all that matters in the end.

Montrezl last night did both: 16 points, 8 rebounds, +15.

You felt that impact, both the impact of him putting up numbers and the impact of winning.

Something I also noticed last night, there was a few times he went up with both hands trying to contest shots rather than just rely on taking a charge. Keep it up!
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mad55557777
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:20 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
Difference in this game was that Trez was not a liability on D. It was a good match up for him on D, as the Rockets do not have an imposing Center or big that plays in the paint. That and the defensive pressure our 4-3-2-1s were providing to our 5s made the job of Gasol-Trez much easier.

His post game started off awful, but we stayed with him, trusted him, and he rewarded it in the 2nd half. He was killing them. He legit is a go to guy in the paint. It is really weird how the Lakers have brought the post game back to the NBA (AD, Bron, Trez all post up a lot) and yet few mention it .....

if the other team doesn't possess a true center who can attack at the 5, Trez will be fine. his iso ability in the post is another one of our weapons for the second unit, a much needed one.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:24 pm    Post subject:

I absolutely love this guy. You can tell his teammates do too.

He brings so damn much to the table. Incredible offseason signing.

Biggest thing I have noticed about him are his hands around the rim. He does not miss put backs very often.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:43 pm    Post subject:

Nash Vegas wrote:
cannga11 wrote:
Nash Vegas wrote:
17 points and 14 great numbers off the bench! But.... he also was a team worse +/- so whenever he was on the floor Lakers would go down -11.

So what does that say?


IMHO, says that +/- is useless, especially in ONE game. Kuzma was "better," at -6. Matthews, whose 4 three's turn the game around, had same value as Kuzma, at -6. Etc.


+/- is never useless. It literally is telling you something, screaming for help. If it was useless, Caruso would still be playing in the G League.


A 1 game sample size of +/- is absolutely useless, actually doesn't tell you anything until you get a large enough sample size. The sample size through his career is that he is a positive +/-.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:05 pm    Post subject:

Trez will be a nightmare for the nets to deal with since they got rid of Jared Allen. He is all power and finish really well around the rim, also sure handed.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:42 pm    Post subject:

Love this guy, hopefully he’s here to stay for a long time.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:46 pm    Post subject:

Really love this guy's game. He worried me when he was on the Clippers. So glad we got him. You don't have to draw any plays for him and he'll get you 10.

His offensive game has expanded too, which is really nice to see. His defense looks better too.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:48 pm    Post subject:

He's play more and more minutes with the Big 2. He might be part of our closing group.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:49 pm    Post subject:

Theseus wrote:
Really love this guy's game. He worried me when he was on the Clippers. So glad we got him. You don't have to draw any plays for him and he'll get you 10.

His offensive game has expanded too, which is really nice to see. His defense looks better too.


Yeah his lack of D talk by fans seems overexaggerated, he did a nice job on Zion on one of the possessions.
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hype
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:32 pm    Post subject:

Inspector Gadget wrote:
Theseus wrote:
Really love this guy's game. He worried me when he was on the Clippers. So glad we got him. You don't have to draw any plays for him and he'll get you 10.

His offensive game has expanded too, which is really nice to see. His defense looks better too.


Yeah his lack of D talk by fans seems overexaggerated, he did a nice job on Zion on one of the possessions.


If you notice most people always bring up his matchup against Jokic as there big argument. That was simply horrible coaching which got even Balmer pissed off and one of the main reasons for the Clippers shakeup. He's always been a solid defender from the games I remember watching him. Put him on Jokic or Embiid with no help and he'll absolutely get destroyed like the majority of not only undersized guys but anyone period would. He's not going to be unplayable in any series imo which I still see fans saying sometimes especially now that the defense has to respect even his jump shot from about 15 feet in. He's a legitimate 2 way all around player.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:59 pm    Post subject:

Loved how Trezz played off AD and Lebron down the stretch tonight

That will be big for us come playoff time if we can effectively close with that lineup. Seemed like we had AD out top and Trezz in the dunker spot just killing folks.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:07 pm    Post subject:

He’s been good after some early season miscommunication, feel out, etc.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:12 pm    Post subject:

He will opt out more than likely, can we afford him? It is a forgone conclusion we will be over the cap. I hope Jeanie goes for it and pay the luxury tax for 2-3 years
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:21 pm    Post subject:

mad55557777 wrote:
He will opt out more than likely, can we afford him? It is a forgone conclusion we will be over the cap. I hope Jeanie goes for it and pay the luxury tax for 2-3 years


No way we give him longer then a 2 year deal imo regardless if the rumors are true that a few teams will be willing to throw the max at THT. I'd say as of now he's probably the most likely to be gone just being realistic.

It's a long season and who knows what will happen though that can alter there value in either direction. I'm trying to just remain delusional that we can find a way to keep them all until proven they cant
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:26 pm    Post subject:

Lock him in long term and lock in Schroeder in long term.

About as long as Kuzma's contract if possible.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:30 pm    Post subject:

Just curious if we had to choose between THT or Trezz who do you guys prefer to keep?
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mad55557777
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2021 12:20 am    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
Lock him in long term and lock in Schroeder in long term.

About as long as Kuzma's contract if possible.

The most we can offer is 11 mil, so unless we get a klutch special like KCP, he is probably gone. Lots of teams with cap space next summer.

We will have a big hole inside. Probably need some ring chasing bigs to sign on
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2021 1:24 am    Post subject:

hype wrote:
mad55557777 wrote:
He will opt out more than likely, can we afford him? It is a forgone conclusion we will be over the cap. I hope Jeanie goes for it and pay the luxury tax for 2-3 years


No way we give him longer then a 2 year deal imo regardless if the rumors are true that a few teams will be willing to throw the max at THT. I'd say as of now he's probably the most likely to be gone just being realistic.

It's a long season and who knows what will happen though that can alter there value in either direction. I'm trying to just remain delusional that we can find a way to keep them all until proven they cant


According to employ, due to THT’s second round pick contract, the most any team can offer him is about MLE money, which the Lakers can match. No need to worry about max contracts.
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hype
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2021 1:32 am    Post subject:

mhan00 wrote:
hype wrote:
mad55557777 wrote:
He will opt out more than likely, can we afford him? It is a forgone conclusion we will be over the cap. I hope Jeanie goes for it and pay the luxury tax for 2-3 years


No way we give him longer then a 2 year deal imo regardless if the rumors are true that a few teams will be willing to throw the max at THT. I'd say as of now he's probably the most likely to be gone just being realistic.

It's a long season and who knows what will happen though that can alter there value in either direction. I'm trying to just remain delusional that we can find a way to keep them all until proven they cant


According to employ, due to THT’s second round pick contract, the most any team can offer him is about MLE money, which the Lakers can match. No need to worry about max contracts.


For the first 2 years you are correct but due to the Gilbert Arenas Provision teams can still offer him a 4 year 80 million dollar contract where the first two years would be around 10ish million but the third and fourth would be right around 30 million a piece. That's why I said I doubt they offer anything past 2 years even if they do have a chance to keep Trezz.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2021 4:47 am    Post subject:

I am much much more concerned about how to find the $$ to keep Caruso, who with his 3 point shooting if he keeps that up, is going to get paid KCP-Kuzma type money. Caruso is easily our most valuable guard on the team, even though the hype is usually won by Dennis or THT. We have to go all out to keep Alex, especially if he keeps this 3 ball alive.

I have no clue how we can realistically keep Dennis on the money he wants, Alex, THT and KCP (since KCP is our starting 2 basically). I think one of that 4some will need to moved or let go, in order to not be destroyed by lux tax. Based on hype, likely Caruso is the odd one out, but I hope we do everything possible to keep him, as his overall net value, in my book, is the highest now that he can make his 3s as well (but lets see if in the playoffs that mantains).

For Trez, I think everything comes down to the playoffs. Nothing he does now is all that important (from the Lakers perspective) for his next contract. We will know his real value in the playoffs because the Clippers got a great RS from Trez than a let down in the playoffs. Trez has to have a similar playoffs as he has RS for him to get paid big time from other teams. I do not think the market was anywhere near as high for him, as some think.

The harder decision for the Lakers will be about Dennis, THT, Alex. All 3 are gonna get paid next year and the market for talented 2-way guards is really good. Teams are gonna pay guys like Dennis, THT, Alex. Rondo had a solid playoffs and got 15M and he is a dinosaur. Dwight had a solid playoffs and he got the vet min. Guards get paid - I think THT-Alex will get 30-40M type of offers, and Dennis could get 60+M. Not sure if we can keep all this talent, but I am for enjoying the season and worrying about that after. From Robs perspective though, you could see a deal at deadline to get him a longterm asset on a cheaper deal so that he can keep as many of his young players as possible. These guys are all pretty much in their prime, or pre prime. They are gonna get paid big time.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2021 4:58 am    Post subject:

It all depends on Jeannie and the rest of owners. They are allowed to keep them but it will cost money.
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