Think We Need a Rim Protecting Big? (LAL rank 23rd in Defending Points in Paint)
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MJST
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 8:55 am    Post subject:

it's almost as if people don't know Harrell has a 7'5 wingspan and was one of our few that got blocks last night or something.

Anyway, Gasol made some good plays at the rim when Kawhi drove to the basket. A lot of the 'fouls' he got called for were questionable to say the least.

Gasol is here for three things.

1) His passing
2) His ability to stretch the floor with LeBron here
3) His defensive savvy

All of which he flexed last year. Considering he barely played in the pre-season and doesn't have chemistry with the team yet, it's far too early to take anything away from the game concerning him.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 8:56 am    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
it's almost as if people don't know Harrell has a 7'5 wingspan and was one of our few that got blocks last night or something.

Anyway, Gasol made some good plays at the rim when Kawhi drove to the basket. A lot of the 'fouls' he got called for were questionable to say the least.

Gasol is here for three things.

1) His passing
2) His ability to stretch the floor with LeBron here
3) His defensive savvy

All of which he flexed last year. Considering he barely played in the pre-season and doesn't have chemistry with the team yet, it's far too early to take anything away from the game concerning him.


Agreed. People need to chill, especially with the vets who are working their way back into shape.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 9:02 am    Post subject:

Those are great points. This is a different team with different players.

I didn't expect McGee or Howard to bring those skills to the game anymore then I expect Gasol or Harrell to bring the same level of paint points and defensive intimidation to the game as last season.

This is a different makeup and it will be a work in progress as they work out things. But Lakers are going to be a competitive team all season. Just need to be patient as they evolve from one strength and find another.

Gasol finding his role and hitting 15ft shots in place of the lob dunks will be an adjustment. But both count as two points.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 9:04 am    Post subject:

Yeah. Playoffs AD will have to suck it up and play a lot of center.

The whole goal should be to minimize his playing center during the regular season so he can be fresh for the postseason. That's what JAV/Dwight did.

Trezz has great wingspan for sure but isn't going to be able to consistently outmuscle 7 footers who are just bigger than him.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 9:07 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Yeah. Playoffs AD will have to suck it up and play a lot of center.

The whole goal should be to minimize his playing center during the regular season so he can be fresh for the postseason. That's what JAV/Dwight did.

Trezz has great wingspan for sure but isn't going to be able to consistently outmuscle 7 footers who are just bigger than him.


That is why we have Gasol. Harrell's job will be breaking down the bigger centers off the dribble and being faster/more athletic than they are to keep up with him. Which was what his job was last year as well.

Zubac primarily used his size to start on bigger centers, and in the brief moments that Harrell was matched up with a team's starting center the idea was to use his speed/handle/athleticism to make it so they couldn't keep up with him.

The Lakers are doing similar, with Gasol in the 'Zubac' role, except Gasol can also bring high post passing and three point shooting into the equation.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 9:12 am    Post subject:

MJST I hope you're right. Marc looks incredibly slow and earthbound out there so far, seeing him round back into a more useful defender after a dozen or so more games would be great to see.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 9:12 am    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
it's almost as if people don't know Harrell has a 7'5 wingspan and was one of our few that got blocks last night or something.

Anyway, Gasol made some good plays at the rim when Kawhi drove to the basket. A lot of the 'fouls' he got called for were questionable to say the least.

Gasol is here for three things.

1) His passing
I think it's safe to say offense isn't gonna be a problem for us this year so we don't need anymore of it.

2) His ability to stretch the floor with LeBron here

Again, we don't his three point shooting. Howard and McGee probably didn't even attempt a 3-pt shot last season and we won the championship. Howard was a constant lob threat on offense that teams always have to watch out for. Gasol isn't a lob threat because he has a 3-inch vertical.

3) His defensive savvy

Definitely not as good a shotblock as Howard

All of which he flexed last year. Considering he barely played in the pre-season and doesn't have chemistry with the team yet, it's far too early to take anything away from the game concerning him.


What we need is DEFENSE and Howard was 3-time DPOY. Gasol just doesn't jump quite high enough to contest/block shots.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 9:20 am    Post subject:

lakersfever714 wrote:
MJST wrote:
it's almost as if people don't know Harrell has a 7'5 wingspan and was one of our few that got blocks last night or something.

Anyway, Gasol made some good plays at the rim when Kawhi drove to the basket. A lot of the 'fouls' he got called for were questionable to say the least.

Gasol is here for three things.

1) His passing
I think it's safe to say offense isn't gonna be a problem for us this year so we don't need anymore of it.

2) His ability to stretch the floor with LeBron here

Again, we don't his three point shooting. Howard and McGee probably didn't even attempt a 3-pt shot last season and we won the championship. Howard was a constant lob threat on offense that teams always have to watch out for. Gasol isn't a lob threat because he has a 3-inch vertical.

3) His defensive savvy

Definitely not as good a shotblock as Howard

All of which he flexed last year. Considering he barely played in the pre-season and doesn't have chemistry with the team yet, it's far too early to take anything away from the game concerning him.


What we need is DEFENSE and Howard was 3-time DPOY. Gasol just doesn't jump quite high enough to contest/block shots.


Gasol doesn't need to 'jump high' to contest shots. Again, he has good rotation timing, strength and verticality and defensive savvy. It's one of the reasons he was so solid defensively for Toronto last year, particularly in the paint.

Just because another player is flashier when playing defense doesn't mean they're more effective. Gasol was particularly good at defending the paint in Toronto and it wasn't because he jumped high.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 9:23 am    Post subject:

lakersfever714 wrote:
MJST wrote:
it's almost as if people don't know Harrell has a 7'5 wingspan and was one of our few that got blocks last night or something.

Anyway, Gasol made some good plays at the rim when Kawhi drove to the basket. A lot of the 'fouls' he got called for were questionable to say the least.

Gasol is here for three things.

1) His passing
I think it's safe to say offense isn't gonna be a problem for us this year so we don't need anymore of it.

2) His ability to stretch the floor with LeBron here

Again, we don't his three point shooting. Howard and McGee probably didn't even attempt a 3-pt shot last season and we won the championship. Howard was a constant lob threat on offense that teams always have to watch out for. Gasol isn't a lob threat because he has a 3-inch vertical.

3) His defensive savvy

Definitely not as good a shotblock as Howard

All of which he flexed last year. Considering he barely played in the pre-season and doesn't have chemistry with the team yet, it's far too early to take anything away from the game concerning him.


What we need is DEFENSE and Howard was 3-time DPOY. Gasol just doesn't jump quite high enough to contest/block shots.


Howard hasn't been a DPOY in 10 years. It's speaks that he has defensive pedigree for certain, but that's probably not what you want to point out especially when Gasol has won DPOY himself and more recently than Howard.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 9:28 am    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
lakersfever714 wrote:
MJST wrote:
it's almost as if people don't know Harrell has a 7'5 wingspan and was one of our few that got blocks last night or something.

Anyway, Gasol made some good plays at the rim when Kawhi drove to the basket. A lot of the 'fouls' he got called for were questionable to say the least.

Gasol is here for three things.

1) His passing
I think it's safe to say offense isn't gonna be a problem for us this year so we don't need anymore of it.

2) His ability to stretch the floor with LeBron here

Again, we don't his three point shooting. Howard and McGee probably didn't even attempt a 3-pt shot last season and we won the championship. Howard was a constant lob threat on offense that teams always have to watch out for. Gasol isn't a lob threat because he has a 3-inch vertical.

3) His defensive savvy

Definitely not as good a shotblock as Howard

All of which he flexed last year. Considering he barely played in the pre-season and doesn't have chemistry with the team yet, it's far too early to take anything away from the game concerning him.


What we need is DEFENSE and Howard was 3-time DPOY. Gasol just doesn't jump quite high enough to contest/block shots.


Gasol doesn't need to 'jump high' to contest shots. Again, he has good rotation timing, strength and verticality and defensive savvy. It's one of the reasons he was so solid defensively for Toronto last year, particularly in the paint.

Just because another player is flashier when playing defense doesn't mean they're more effective. Gasol was particularly good at defending the paint in Toronto and it wasn't because he jumped high.


If he was really that good in Toronto, then I guess we'll give him another 5 more games or so to make a better assessment. So far, my assessment on him was only based on the preseason and the Clippers game. I really hope that he turns out to be as Rob expected when he signed him. Harrell and Schroder did pretty well in their first game with a new system.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 9:45 am    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
lakersfever714 wrote:
MJST wrote:
it's almost as if people don't know Harrell has a 7'5 wingspan and was one of our few that got blocks last night or something.

Anyway, Gasol made some good plays at the rim when Kawhi drove to the basket. A lot of the 'fouls' he got called for were questionable to say the least.

Gasol is here for three things.

1) His passing
I think it's safe to say offense isn't gonna be a problem for us this year so we don't need anymore of it.

2) His ability to stretch the floor with LeBron here

Again, we don't his three point shooting. Howard and McGee probably didn't even attempt a 3-pt shot last season and we won the championship. Howard was a constant lob threat on offense that teams always have to watch out for. Gasol isn't a lob threat because he has a 3-inch vertical.

3) His defensive savvy

Definitely not as good a shotblock as Howard

All of which he flexed last year. Considering he barely played in the pre-season and doesn't have chemistry with the team yet, it's far too early to take anything away from the game concerning him.


What we need is DEFENSE and Howard was 3-time DPOY. Gasol just doesn't jump quite high enough to contest/block shots.


Gasol doesn't need to 'jump high' to contest shots. Again, he has good rotation timing, strength and verticality and defensive savvy. It's one of the reasons he was so solid defensively for Toronto last year, particularly in the paint.

Just because another player is flashier when playing defense doesn't mean they're more effective. Gasol was particularly good at defending the paint in Toronto and it wasn't because he jumped high.


Sorry MJ....offense wasn’t the problem...we won last year because of our D... no one could get to the rim. Dwight is superior to Marc defensively and it’s not close. Dwight changed shots...all u have to do against Gasol is drive around him or stop and shoot over him. He provides no resistance at the rim and that is going to burn us. The only guy that can do it is AD but we’re asking him to score and play perimeter defense. Of course he doesn’t want to play the 5 during the year. I said last year Green was a terrible signing and people said wait until the playoffs. Nothing happened. Same applies here Gasol is too old, too slow defensively. Again we won the title because of our D....that won’t happen this year...Pelinka really screwed up on this one. Watch.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 9:51 am    Post subject:

Rebound in playoffs:

Gasol 7.7 RPG vs Howard 12.4 RPG

Another perks for jumping high while being mobile. I don't think last year we ever had rebounding issue while Howard was on the floor. Both Gasol and Howard are 35 years old but Gasol plays like a 35 year old while Howard plays like a 26 year old. Howard had the energy of Harrell.

If AD had to carry the load defensively, he's NOT going to have the energy to score. That applies to everyone including Lebron as well.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:04 am    Post subject:

King Randle wrote:
MJST wrote:
lakersfever714 wrote:
MJST wrote:
it's almost as if people don't know Harrell has a 7'5 wingspan and was one of our few that got blocks last night or something.

Anyway, Gasol made some good plays at the rim when Kawhi drove to the basket. A lot of the 'fouls' he got called for were questionable to say the least.

Gasol is here for three things.

1) His passing
I think it's safe to say offense isn't gonna be a problem for us this year so we don't need anymore of it.

2) His ability to stretch the floor with LeBron here

Again, we don't his three point shooting. Howard and McGee probably didn't even attempt a 3-pt shot last season and we won the championship. Howard was a constant lob threat on offense that teams always have to watch out for. Gasol isn't a lob threat because he has a 3-inch vertical.

3) His defensive savvy

Definitely not as good a shotblock as Howard

All of which he flexed last year. Considering he barely played in the pre-season and doesn't have chemistry with the team yet, it's far too early to take anything away from the game concerning him.


What we need is DEFENSE and Howard was 3-time DPOY. Gasol just doesn't jump quite high enough to contest/block shots.


Gasol doesn't need to 'jump high' to contest shots. Again, he has good rotation timing, strength and verticality and defensive savvy. It's one of the reasons he was so solid defensively for Toronto last year, particularly in the paint.

Just because another player is flashier when playing defense doesn't mean they're more effective. Gasol was particularly good at defending the paint in Toronto and it wasn't because he jumped high.


Sorry MJ....offense wasn’t the problem...we won last year because of our D... no one could get to the rim. Dwight is superior to Marc defensively and it’s not close.



You're right it wasn't close... Gasol was a lot better.

Gasol had a plus/minus differential of 7.7.
On offense, the team scores 0.8 fewer points when he’s on the court, however on defense, the team allows 8.5 fewer points when he is on the court which is the 95th percentile among all players in the NBA.

Gasol also spent 78.5% of his time defending bigs, according to Krishna Narsu's versatility statistic, and ranked in the 96th percentile in post defense, according to NBA stats.

He allowed just 0.47 points per post touch, the tenth fewest among NBA players.

Gasol was also
91st percentile overall defensively
79th percentile against PnR ballhandlers
88th percentile against single high PnRs

Last year as well his defensive plus/minus was the 2nd best it'd been for his entire career, which includes his DPOY season.

In addition to that Gasol ranked

96th Percentile - Rim Deterrence
91st Percentile - % of Rim Shots Contested
85th Percentile - Rim Contests
80th Percentile - Blocks
72nd Percentile - Rim dFG% vs Expected
89th Percentile - Rim Points saved
100th Percentile - Lineup Perimeter Defense
https://twitter.com/Tim_NBA/status/1330676484160286723

So yeah, the TLDR is... Gasol's still got it defensively and was one of the best defensive bigs in the league last year. Just because Dwight jumped higher and was more athletic didn't mean Gasol wasn't still a beast defensively.

So you're definitely right when you say it 'wasn't close', but it wasn't Dwight who was better.

It would behoove you and anyone else that has... to stop underestimating Gasol and the value he brings to a team defensively, and understand how fortunate the Lakers are to have him.
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Last edited by MJST on Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:23 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:07 am    Post subject:

What’s nuts is that we traded McGee so that we would have room to sign Gasol. Dwight got a minimum contract in Philly. Should have re-signed him and also gotten Harrell.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:14 am    Post subject:

CandyCanes wrote:
What’s nuts is that we traded McGee so that we would have room to sign Gasol. Dwight got a minimum contract in Philly. Should have re-signed him and also gotten Harrell.


We're more than fine with Gasol.

In many ways, Gasol is better. Howard is flashier.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:16 am    Post subject:

CandyCanes wrote:
What’s nuts is that we traded McGee so that we would have room to sign Gasol. Dwight got a minimum contract in Philly. Should have re-signed him and also gotten Harrell.


That's what I've been saying. Would have made the Lakers a godly team with no weaknesses. We also knew that Howard wanted to come back and was very excited about coming back to the Lakers from his deleted tweet so it would only mean one thing and one thing only: Rob didn't think Howard was starter material and that Gasol would be better. It's still too early to draw conclusions but I hope I'm wrong about Gasol and Rob is right.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:25 am    Post subject:

lakersfever714 wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
What’s nuts is that we traded McGee so that we would have room to sign Gasol. Dwight got a minimum contract in Philly. Should have re-signed him and also gotten Harrell.


That's what I've been saying. Would have made the Lakers a godly team with no weaknesses. We also knew that Howard wanted to come back and was very excited about coming back to the Lakers from his deleted tweet so it would only mean one thing and one thing only: Rob didn't think Howard was starter material and that Gasol would be better. It's still too early to draw conclusions but I hope I'm wrong about Gasol and Rob is right.


Why not get both Gasol and Dwight?
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:26 am    Post subject:

lakersfever714 wrote:
MJST wrote:
it's almost as if people don't know Harrell has a 7'5 wingspan and was one of our few that got blocks last night or something.

Anyway, Gasol made some good plays at the rim when Kawhi drove to the basket. A lot of the 'fouls' he got called for were questionable to say the least.

Gasol is here for three things.

1) His passing
I think it's safe to say offense isn't gonna be a problem for us this year so we don't need anymore of it.

2) His ability to stretch the floor with LeBron here

Again, we don't his three point shooting. Howard and McGee probably didn't even attempt a 3-pt shot last season and we won the championship. Howard was a constant lob threat on offense that teams always have to watch out for. Gasol isn't a lob threat because he has a 3-inch vertical.

3) His defensive savvy

Definitely not as good a shotblock as Howard

All of which he flexed last year. Considering he barely played in the pre-season and doesn't have chemistry with the team yet, it's far too early to take anything away from the game concerning him.


What we need is DEFENSE and Howard was 3-time DPOY. Gasol just doesn't jump quite high enough to contest/block shots.


And yet he's clearly a better defender even if McGee blocks more shots per game.

Blocked shots doesn't equal defense.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:28 am    Post subject:

CandyCanes wrote:
lakersfever714 wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
What’s nuts is that we traded McGee so that we would have room to sign Gasol. Dwight got a minimum contract in Philly. Should have re-signed him and also gotten Harrell.


That's what I've been saying. Would have made the Lakers a godly team with no weaknesses. We also knew that Howard wanted to come back and was very excited about coming back to the Lakers from his deleted tweet so it would only mean one thing and one thing only: Rob didn't think Howard was starter material and that Gasol would be better. It's still too early to draw conclusions but I hope I'm wrong about Gasol and Rob is right.


Why not get both Gasol and Dwight?


Idk..ask Rob what the heck happened? Gasol in place of McGee would have been perfect and would have kept most of our championship pieces in tact.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:30 am    Post subject:

lakersfever714 wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
lakersfever714 wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
What’s nuts is that we traded McGee so that we would have room to sign Gasol. Dwight got a minimum contract in Philly. Should have re-signed him and also gotten Harrell.


That's what I've been saying. Would have made the Lakers a godly team with no weaknesses. We also knew that Howard wanted to come back and was very excited about coming back to the Lakers from his deleted tweet so it would only mean one thing and one thing only: Rob didn't think Howard was starter material and that Gasol would be better. It's still too early to draw conclusions but I hope I'm wrong about Gasol and Rob is right.


Why not get both Gasol and Dwight?


Idk..ask Rob what the heck happened? Gasol in place of McGee would have been perfect and would have kept most of our championship pieces in tact.


Gasol is a better all around defender than both McGee and Howard at this point. Especially McGee.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:32 am    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
lakersfever714 wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
lakersfever714 wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
What’s nuts is that we traded McGee so that we would have room to sign Gasol. Dwight got a minimum contract in Philly. Should have re-signed him and also gotten Harrell.


That's what I've been saying. Would have made the Lakers a godly team with no weaknesses. We also knew that Howard wanted to come back and was very excited about coming back to the Lakers from his deleted tweet so it would only mean one thing and one thing only: Rob didn't think Howard was starter material and that Gasol would be better. It's still too early to draw conclusions but I hope I'm wrong about Gasol and Rob is right.


Why not get both Gasol and Dwight?


Idk..ask Rob what the heck happened? Gasol in place of McGee would have been perfect and would have kept most of our championship pieces in tact.


Gasol is a better all around defender than both McGee and Howard at this point. Especially McGee.


Opportunity to get a better general player and take talent away from competition?

Yeah, Harrell becomes an acquisition, fast.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:33 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
MJST wrote:
lakersfever714 wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
lakersfever714 wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
What’s nuts is that we traded McGee so that we would have room to sign Gasol. Dwight got a minimum contract in Philly. Should have re-signed him and also gotten Harrell.


That's what I've been saying. Would have made the Lakers a godly team with no weaknesses. We also knew that Howard wanted to come back and was very excited about coming back to the Lakers from his deleted tweet so it would only mean one thing and one thing only: Rob didn't think Howard was starter material and that Gasol would be better. It's still too early to draw conclusions but I hope I'm wrong about Gasol and Rob is right.


Why not get both Gasol and Dwight?


Idk..ask Rob what the heck happened? Gasol in place of McGee would have been perfect and would have kept most of our championship pieces in tact.


Gasol is a better all around defender than both McGee and Howard at this point. Especially McGee.


Opportunity to get a better general player and take talent away from competition?

Yeah, Harrell becomes an acquisition, fast.


Precisely!
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:34 am    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
lakersfever714 wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
lakersfever714 wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
What’s nuts is that we traded McGee so that we would have room to sign Gasol. Dwight got a minimum contract in Philly. Should have re-signed him and also gotten Harrell.


That's what I've been saying. Would have made the Lakers a godly team with no weaknesses. We also knew that Howard wanted to come back and was very excited about coming back to the Lakers from his deleted tweet so it would only mean one thing and one thing only: Rob didn't think Howard was starter material and that Gasol would be better. It's still too early to draw conclusions but I hope I'm wrong about Gasol and Rob is right.


Why not get both Gasol and Dwight?


Idk..ask Rob what the heck happened? Gasol in place of McGee would have been perfect and would have kept most of our championship pieces in tact.


Gasol is a better all around defender than both McGee and Howard at this point. Especially McGee.


We know for certain Gasol isn't gonna jump higher or be more mobile or have more energy than Howard. That much we know for sure. As far as how savvy Gasol will be as a defender, we'd need to see it from him. If you ask me today, then I would still rather have Howard because I think Howard is better.
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MJST
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:38 am    Post subject:

lakersfever714 wrote:

We know for certain Gasol isn't gonna jump higher or be more mobile or have more energy than Howard. That much we know for sure. As far as how savvy Gasol will be as a defender, we'd need to see it from him. If you ask me today, then I would still rather have Howard because I think Howard is better.


Alright, look here.

Gasol had a plus/minus differential of 7.7.
On offense, the team scores 0.8 fewer points when he’s on the court, however on defense, the team allows 8.5 fewer points when he is on the court which is the 95th percentile among all players in the NBA.

Gasol also spent 78.5% of his time defending bigs, according to Krishna Narsu's versatility statistic, and ranked in the 96th percentile in post defense, according to NBA stats.

He allowed just 0.47 points per post touch, the tenth fewest among NBA players.

Gasol was also
91st percentile overall defensively
79th percentile against PnR ballhandlers
88th percentile against single high PnRs

Last year as well his defensive plus/minus was the 2nd best it'd been for his entire career, which includes his DPOY season.

In addition to that Gasol ranked

96th Percentile - Rim Deterrence
91st Percentile - % of Rim Shots Contested
85th Percentile - Rim Contests
80th Percentile - Blocks
72nd Percentile - Rim dFG% vs Expected
89th Percentile - Rim Points saved
100th Percentile - Lineup Perimeter Defense
https://twitter.com/Tim_NBA/status/1330676484160286723


Do you see how fortunate we were to get Gasol in place of Howard and McGee and also to obtain Harrell in the process?
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:41 am    Post subject:

It's just one game, and game one at that. A true rim protector would be nice, but let's just chalk up this game as being aberrant. Quick foul trouble reduced Gasol to spectator status. That sometimes happens with any center.
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