Think We Need a Rim Protecting Big? (LAL rank 23rd in Defending Points in Paint)
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windycitycane
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:23 pm    Post subject:

leking006 wrote:
Nuggets only 30 pts in the paint and the wolves now has only 38. But so sad that garbage players became hot whenever they play the Lakers. Nnanji and Campazzo vs Nuggets and McLaughlin today. Even Edwards who has a low % shooting average became a shooter in today's game.

But good to see that they are limiting teams in the paint to less that 40 pts.



Edwards, who I believe they said had the lowest jump shot % in the NBA, had his best game in the NBA against us this evening.

Fortunately, it wasn't enough.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 9:26 pm    Post subject:

Mathews + Future 2nd pick for D. Howard
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 9:35 pm    Post subject:

unleasHell wrote:
Mathews + Future 2nd pick for D. Howard

Works in 2K
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 12:40 am    Post subject:

Has the G-league been searched? Is there a big hungry shot-blocking freak to call up?
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 12:56 am    Post subject:

Trevacious2 wrote:
Has the G-league been searched? Is there a big hungry shot-blocking freak to call up?


A lot of people have been mentioning Dedmon. Not sure the date that we're eligible to make an offer though.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 2:54 am    Post subject:

Trevacious2 wrote:
Has the G-league been searched? Is there a big hungry shot-blocking freak to call up?


Pelle is available, he's a good shotblocker. But as other mentioned here he is just good as Kostas.
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wolfpaclaker
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 6:42 am    Post subject:

This will be our narrative after every loss, but we basically played Trez-Gasol all 5 minutes most of the year. All we are doing really is playing ADs minutes now with smaller forwards like Kieff and Kuz. It will hurt us on defense, but it will make us quicker in some ways and we can stretch the floor more.

It is a time where we can really start to use Gasol and Trez in a way where we envisioned. Of course the losses will be more, you can not replace what AD does, but I feel confident we can be competitive. We will lose to elite teams, without AD, but every other team we should be able to beat.

The real issue here is to ensure you do what we did last night. REST Bron in games. Do not go to him for 42-44 minutes. Even yesterday 38, was a bit high. Frank needs to trust that 2nd unit to play without Bron for 10-14 min a game.
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 6:49 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
This will be our narrative after every loss, but we basically played Trez-Gasol all 5 minutes most of the year. All we are doing really is playing ADs minutes now with smaller forwards like Kieff and Kuz. It will hurt us on defense, but it will make us quicker in some ways and we can stretch the floor more.

It is a time where we can really start to use Gasol and Trez in a way where we envisioned. Of course the losses will be more, you can not replace what AD does, but I feel confident we can be competitive. We will lose to elite teams, without AD, but every other team we should be able to beat.

The real issue here is to ensure you do what we did last night. REST Bron in games. Do not go to him for 42-44 minutes. Even yesterday 38, was a bit high. Frank needs to trust that 2nd unit to play without Bron for 10-14 min a game.


Regardless, do you trust a 36 year old Marc who has had injury issues the past few seasons to play every game? I don't. We absolutely need another true big. We have enough 6'7 "centers" off the bench so we are good. Kieff can be our stretch PF/C.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 6:57 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
This will be our narrative after every loss, but we basically played Trez-Gasol all 5 minutes most of the year. All we are doing really is playing ADs minutes now with smaller forwards like Kieff and Kuz. It will hurt us on defense, but it will make us quicker in some ways and we can stretch the floor more.

It is a time where we can really start to use Gasol and Trez in a way where we envisioned. Of course the losses will be more, you can not replace what AD does, but I feel confident we can be competitive. We will lose to elite teams, without AD, but every other team we should be able to beat.

The real issue here is to ensure you do what we did last night. REST Bron in games. Do not go to him for 42-44 minutes. Even yesterday 38, was a bit high. Frank needs to trust that 2nd unit to play without Bron for 10-14 min a game.


Regardless, do you trust a 36 year old Marc who has had injury issues the past few seasons to play every game? I don't. We absolutely need another true big. We have enough 6'7 "centers" off the bench so we are good. Kieff can be our stretch PF/C.

Yinoma, the Lakers have a lot of versatile players. Kieff is a playoff starter, who played almost half his minutes at the 5 (when AD sat) in the Houston series. We have Gasol, Trez, and Kieff at the 5 to give minutes. At the 4, we have Kuz, Kieff, and Bron. I do not think we absolutely need a big that is a 3rd rate big who will not know the system or get minutes because he can not play on offense, just because we do not like how we "look" size wise.

Go back to my history on this board, you won't find too many more posters who support size and playing big. But we do have those kind of players. Trez is who we invested in, and we gotta believe in this guy. Good or bad, this is sink or swim time for these newbs.

We have some talented lineups we can put forth with Trez, Kieff at the 5. We will get beat up inside, but we have great perimeter defenders and one of the best coaches in the NBA.

Now if you're simply saying get a big for longterm potential risk of having both Gasol and AD out at the same time. I respect that, dude. But I think people are underestimating how good this team is in regards to versatility. We have guards that can play the 1, 2 or 3. We have Bron who can play 4 through 1. We have Kieff who is a 4, but can also be a microball 5. Kuz is playing well as a 4. Trez, can be relied on for big minutes at the 5 if need be.

I understand what's the concern, but it won't change that the guys available are not Dwight Howard, Drummond or anyone like that. If Drummond got bought out, I would sign him in a heart beat. I am not saying don't sign guys like that, heck I wanted Dwight back badly in FA. However even if we sign a 3rd string big like Dedmon or whoever, the impact is negligible. Guys like that do not make enough impact where they would warrant PT over someone like Trez, Kieff or Gasol.
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 7:23 am    Post subject:

People said that AD would just play center so we didn't need to worry. OK. Now he has recurring issues with his Achilles area.

So Marc, at age 36, and a guy who in the past few seasons have missed a ton of games (and looks out of shape) will be holding it down? The chances of him missing time are actually higher than AD, and we've been fortunate that he hasn't gone down.

This has been my concern all year long. I wanted a true big off the bench b/c we have 2 guys in AD/Marc, both starters, who have injury/age concerns. It's not necessarily that I think that this FA/traded player will come in and start. Rather, if we are down to the bone with only Kieff/Trezz at center, we better have another big body ready to play (and I'm not talking about Kostas or Cacok).

My concern has never been about "impact," but literally having enough bodies to have a rotation should the injury bug bite. It has already bitten and taken out our 2nd most important player.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 8:29 am    Post subject:

We need an actual 7footer for Marc insurance, there’s 40+ games left in the reg season. We have Cook and McKinney spot that can be opened up
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 8:43 am    Post subject:

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People said that AD would just play center so we didn't need to worry. OK. Now he has recurring issues with his Achilles area.

In the playoffs.

Have they began?

And we wanted Dwight, but management was not aggressive in keeping him, and when he saw Trez would eat up his PT, McGee still on the roster, he went elsewhere. But we did replace McGee and Dwight with Gasol and Trez. And we did deal with AD injury issues last year (though not an extended break).

Sure some may not like that Gasol and Trez are not as active in blocking shots or paint intimidation, but they have been overall decent enough where the Lakers despite having a lot less urgency than last year have wound up being one of the best defensive teams in the NBA.

I am far more worried about our offense than paint play or defense. To win with Trez and Gasol, we need our offense to be better. Both are more skilled players than what we had at the 5 last year but our offense has not yet thrived. Even with Dennis' replacing Green. So in a way we have upgraded in 3 areas on offense, but the results have not shown thus far on offense.

This time without AD, IMO, is where you can start to build that chemistry on offense with these new guys. We saw yesterday Marc make 3 three pointers. Dennis with 24 points. Trez was aggressive.

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This has been my concern all year long. I wanted a true big off the bench b/c we have 2 guys in AD/Marc, both starters, who have injury/age concerns. It's not necessarily that I think that this FA/traded player will come in and start. Rather, if we are down to the bone with only Kieff/Trezz at center, we better have another big body ready to play (and I'm not talking about Kostas or Cacok).

See that is the issue here. Trez is viewed by the Lakers as a true big. In this era, guys like Trez are 5s, not 4s. We play him as such. Even when AD was playing with him, AD was the 4 not Trez,

So I don't get this notion that the Lakers don't have a bench big. They do. You may not like how "big" he is, or how he plays the game on D, or what his impact is, but if you asked any GM in the league if they rather have Trez or Dedmon, the answer would be Trez.

I am not trying to be difficult, but to me it is about whether the Lakers have a player available that can actually get those minutes. You signed the 6MOTY, and he's already not getting the same offense touches. He took a paycut to come to you. Now you go out and sign a guy not in the league to take his minutes? No way Trez would roll with that.

If you're talking insurance policy, as in sign a guy just for the sake of an injury, ok, who do we cut. Cook? Dudley? These are team chemistry guys. I guess you could argue for Cook, but there's Klutch angle there. I am not against adding depth, but we need to stop pretending that there is a Dwight Howard level option available for the Lakers. And even if they were, playing him over Gasol/Trez would cause issues for Gasol/Trez, as they were signed as FAs with the intention to play. It's not the playoffs where guys will just sit and lose their spots knowing that the season is on the line like McGee/Dwight did. That will happen with Trez/Gasol too, but in the playoffs.
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 8:47 am    Post subject:

I don't think we're seeing eye to eye on this.

I've repeatedly said this is for a 3rd big/insurance guy due to AD's injury/short turnaround and Marc's age/injury history. I've never said that a mysterious 3rd big is going to steal minutes. But I'd rather have that player ready if AD goes down (happening), or Marc at age 36 has some injuries. Having to then roll with Kieff/Trezz is just not enough for me.

We don't have to cut anyone. We have a prorated spot coming available soon.

We could also package McKinnie for a future 2nd (projected to be in the 50s).
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:25 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
I don't think we're seeing eye to eye on this.

I've repeatedly said this is for a 3rd big/insurance guy due to AD's injury/short turnaround and Marc's age/injury history. I've never said that a mysterious 3rd big is going to steal minutes. But I'd rather have that player ready if AD goes down (happening), or Marc at age 36 has some injuries. Having to then roll with Kieff/Trezz is just not enough for me.

We don't have to cut anyone. We have a prorated spot coming available soon.

We could also package McKinnie for a future 2nd (projected to be in the 50s).


Agree.

It’s about the insurance.

If we had another big it would’ve taken some off the load off AD playing center this season, he may not even have gotten hurt or would not be needed to rush back from his injury so soon.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:31 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
I don't think we're seeing eye to eye on this.

I've repeatedly said this is for a 3rd big/insurance guy due to AD's injury/short turnaround and Marc's age/injury history. I've never said that a mysterious 3rd big is going to steal minutes. But I'd rather have that player ready if AD goes down (happening), or Marc at age 36 has some injuries. Having to then roll with Kieff/Trezz is just not enough for me.

We don't have to cut anyone. We have a prorated spot coming available soon.

We could also package McKinnie for a future 2nd (projected to be in the 50s).


Anyone who argues this is foolish. There are a couple names here, whom I won't mention, that keep spouting this nonsense about it not being a need. It was our biggest need coming into the season and 1/4 through we're seeing just how big of a need it really is.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 11:17 am    Post subject:

Right now:

C: Marc (about a 18-20mpg tops; 36, injury concern)/Trezz
PF: Kuz/Kieff/LBJ

I think there is a possibility that Marc may need time off due to injury. Of course with a healthy AD, in the regular season, we could get away with it by starting Kieff over Marc and finishing with Trezz/AD at center. But losing AD should easily change this equation.

We have a slot that will be prorated to go by 2/24. Easiest move is Dedmon. Comes in and can give you 10-12mpg, fill in a pinch. When our squad is healthy, a guy like him would be insurance only.

We could look to trade McKinnie + 2nd to get a min. deal center back (people have been saying Hassan for example).

We absolutely gobbled up teams last year with our frontcourt size that just came at you in waves. I don't need spectacular blocks but I do need guys who can hang physically with other team's big men.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:38 pm    Post subject:

Robin Lopez if bought out could be realistic.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:41 pm    Post subject:

This is the position you find yourself in when the constant sole priority is get/keep superstars 1 and 2, then sign their short term, and/or lowly compensated supporting cast. It can work now and then, but it's not a sustainable model for maintaining a quality squad.
So here we are. They didn't value JR, Zubac, Lopez, Bryant, Wagner, or Mcgee because (McGee excepted) they had to give all the money to stars. The gamble paid off in year 1, but now they wish they had access to at least 5 of those guys. They may possibly find Kostas eating major minutes as they lie in the bed they've made. I'm not thrilled with the strategy or lack of foresight. At the very least, some of those guys could have brought back assets that could have been useful in the AD trade, or to negotiate some future need.


Last edited by lakersboy on Wed Feb 17, 2021 6:04 pm; edited 6 times in total
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:43 pm    Post subject:

Folks here forget Cacok is our emergency big, I releaize he doesn't have the desired size for a true center but for 5-10mins in a pinch he is decent.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:56 pm    Post subject:

Our need for a rim protecting big isn't just for insurance for Gasol, but it should also be to adjust to different matchups and to give us a different look.

Gasol does a couple of things well, but he's old and slow.

On the other hand, the kind of rim protecting big we want, maybe along the lines of what Javale McGee gave us last year, would give us a lineup that's faster and more mobile where we can play a different type of defense for 5-15 minutes a game.

Plus, that type of rim protecting big could be a nice pressure-release option on offense by giving us easy baskets on lobs and fast breaks.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2021 4:13 am    Post subject:

lakersboy wrote:

<snip>
They didn't value JR, Zubac, Lopez, Bryant, Wagner, or Mcgee because (McGee excepted) they had to give all the money to stars.
<snip>


Correction. They didn't value Zubac, Lopez, Bryant, Wagner because management was either trigger-happy or short-sighted or vision-impaired (or all of the above).
(I do agree with your overall point - paying 2 mega-stars is tough)
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:25 am    Post subject:

Lakerz113 wrote:
Robin Lopez if bought out could be realistic.


this would be ideal, is he asking out?
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:43 am    Post subject:

lakersboy wrote:
This is the position you find yourself in when the constant sole priority is get/keep superstars 1 and 2, then sign their short term, and/or lowly compensated supporting cast. It can work now and then, but it's not a sustainable model for maintaining a quality squad.
So here we are. They didn't value JR, Zubac, Lopez, Bryant, Wagner, or Mcgee because (McGee excepted) they had to give all the money to stars. The gamble paid off in year 1, but now they wish they had access to at least 5 of those guys. They may possibly find Kostas eating major minutes as they lie in the bed they've made. I'm not thrilled with the strategy or lack of foresight. At the very least, some of those guys could have brought back assets that could have been useful in the AD trade, or to negotiate some future need.


Our supporting cast isn't "lowly" compensated.

Kuz is going to be paid in the 11-13m/year range.
KCP is in the 13m/year range.
Dennis is in the 17m/year range.
Trez is getting the full MLE.

One could argue that having 4 really good role players for the price of one "superstar," (basically all 4 combined this season make as much as Westbrook) is a better tradeoff.

I think if we had a 3rd superstar, then yes, your statement would be true as we would have to use scraps to pay for role players. We are the opposite of that right now.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2021 7:17 am    Post subject:

lakersboy wrote:
This is the position you find yourself in when the constant sole priority is get/keep superstars 1 and 2, then sign their short term, and/or lowly compensated supporting cast. It can work now and then, but it's not a sustainable model for maintaining a quality squad. .


There isn't a sustainable model for maintaining a quality squad in the NBA these days.

Superstars win rings, and the superstars change teams at the drop of a hat now. Unless you get super lucky, the most you can hope for is to put together a team that contends for a few years.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2021 7:31 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
lakersboy wrote:
This is the position you find yourself in when the constant sole priority is get/keep superstars 1 and 2, then sign their short term, and/or lowly compensated supporting cast. It can work now and then, but it's not a sustainable model for maintaining a quality squad. .


There isn't a sustainable model for maintaining a quality squad in the NBA these days.

Superstars win rings, and the superstars change teams at the drop of a hat now. Unless you get super lucky, the most you can hope for is to put together a team that contends for a few years.


I think we actually have a great model. Two superstars, and on paper, really good supporting cast on reasonable and tradeable deals (i.e. Dennis/Trez/Kuz/KCP/AC/THT/Wes, etc.).

I like that rather than overpaying for a 3rd "star" and having less depth. Imagine if we had a name like Russ as our 3rd "star" just because. The opportunity cost of that would be Dennis/Kuz/KCP/Trez basically.
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