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leking006 Star Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2018 Posts: 6156
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Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 1:32 am Post subject: 5-Man Lineup Combination Net Rating |
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https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanced/?Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612747&CF=GROUP_NAME*E*:MIN*GE*20&sort=NET_RATING&dir=1
I queried the net rating for a 5 man lineup where Bron/AD/Bron was in it.
I am surprised that the 5 man-line up with Bron/Harrell/AC are dominating their matchup with
.L. James, .W. Matthews, .M. Morris, .M. Harrell, .A. Caruso.
+44.1
.L. James, .M. Harrell, .A. Caruso, .K. Kuzma, .T. Horton-Tucker. +40.7
Though this combinations played only 20 minutes overall, Its kinda surprising. I assuming that 1 reason is basicaly this team is matchup against opponents bench which they easily outmatched.
Sadly though, the 2nd most minutes 5-lineup combination of
.L. James, .W. Matthews, .M. Morris, .M. Harrell, .K. Kuzma
which they've been using in 10 games now has a net rating of -12.4.
I think they should stop using this lineup like in last game where Matthews and Morris got benched.
https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanced/?Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612747&CF=GROUP_NAME*E*:MIN*GE*10&sort=NET_RATING&dir=1
Apparently they've been using the best lineup of
.L. James, .A. Davis, .D. Schroder, .K. Caldwell-Pope, .A. Caruso
for only 19 minutes in 5 games.
This lineup has:
Off Rtng 138.5
Def Rtng 87.5
Net Rtng +51.0
I think this lineup is what they are using as closing lineup in a close game vs the opponents best lineup. This is kinda tough lineup, they should use this more.
To summarize this so far:
Best lineup vs opponents best lineup:
.L. James, .A. Davis, .D. Schroder, .K. Caldwell-Pope, .A. Caruso
Best lineups vs opponents bench:
.L. James, .W. Matthews, .M. Morris, .M. Harrell, .A. Caruso.
.L. James, .M. Harrell, .A. Caruso, .K. Kuzma, .T. Horton-Tucker.
Worst lineup
.L. James, .W. Matthews, .M. Morris, .M. Harrell, .K. Kuzma |
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leking006 Star Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2018 Posts: 6156
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Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 2:59 am Post subject: |
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Lakers 5-Man lineup with the trio of Lebron-AD-AC that played more than 10 minutes:
.L. James, .A. Davis, .D. Schroder, .K. Caldwell-Pope, .A. Caruso
Net Rtng +51
.L. James, .A. Davis, .D. Schroder, .M. Harrell, .A. Caruso
Net Rtng +21.2
.L. James, .A. Davis, .M. Harrell, .A. Caruso, .K. Kuzma
Net Rtng +13.8
https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanced/?Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612747&CF=GROUP_NAME*E*Caruso:GROUP_NAME*E*James:GROUP_NAME*E*Davis:MIN*GE*10&sort=NET_RATING&dir=1 |
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Aeneas Hunter Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jul 2005 Posts: 31763
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Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 9:55 am Post subject: |
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I've never found 5-man unit analysis to be useful, especially when it focuses on oddball lineups that have played only a few minutes all year. When I look at the listing that you linked, my takeaways are (1) the basic starting lineup is +16.7, which is very good, (2) Lebron with the bench guys (Matthews, Harrell, Kuzma, and Morris) is just as poor as you would expect, and (3) the other combinations are a mixed bag. _________________ Internet Argument Resolved |
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unleasHell Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Apr 2001 Posts: 11591 Location: Stay Thirsty my Friends
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Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 9:57 am Post subject: |
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Any lineup that has Gasol on the bench is bound to be a winning one...! _________________ “Always remember... Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots.” |
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mad55557777 Franchise Player
Joined: 29 Jun 2005 Posts: 22801
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Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 10:31 am Post subject: |
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unleasHell wrote: | Any lineup that has Gasol on the bench is bound to be a winning one...! |
what about our starting lineup with a net rating of +16.7 in 218 minutes? |
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leking006 Star Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2018 Posts: 6156
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Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 10:48 am Post subject: |
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mad55557777 wrote: | unleasHell wrote: | Any lineup that has Gasol on the bench is bound to be a winning one...! |
what about our starting lineup with a net rating of +16.7 in 218 minutes? |
I forgot to add that up as I am thinking subbing Gasol with AC and assigning AD to center spot will be a better lineup with +51 net rating. Though with just a small sample size of 19 minutes, It's still what Vogel is using as closing lineup during close games. Maybe they should try using it as a starting lineup sometimes. |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 11:02 am Post subject: |
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leking006 wrote: | mad55557777 wrote: | unleasHell wrote: | Any lineup that has Gasol on the bench is bound to be a winning one...! |
what about our starting lineup with a net rating of +16.7 in 218 minutes? |
I forgot to add that up as I am thinking subbing Gasol with AC and assigning AD to center spot will be a better lineup with +51 net rating. Though with just a small sample size of 19 minutes, It's still what Vogel is using as closing lineup during close games. Maybe they should try using it as a starting lineup sometimes. |
AD doesn't want to start at center during the regular season. It's just something you have to understand will be a rule of thumb with him. It's frustrating but understandable, but we know when it's win time, he's closing at center. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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leking006 Star Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2018 Posts: 6156
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Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 11:07 am Post subject: |
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yinoma2001 wrote: | leking006 wrote: | mad55557777 wrote: | unleasHell wrote: | Any lineup that has Gasol on the bench is bound to be a winning one...! |
what about our starting lineup with a net rating of +16.7 in 218 minutes? |
I forgot to add that up as I am thinking subbing Gasol with AC and assigning AD to center spot will be a better lineup with +51 net rating. Though with just a small sample size of 19 minutes, It's still what Vogel is using as closing lineup during close games. Maybe they should try using it as a starting lineup sometimes. |
AD doesn't want to start at center during the regular season. It's just something you have to understand will be a rule of thumb with him. It's frustrating but understandable, but we know when it's win time, he's closing at center. |
Yeah, that's why Gasol is in there, to hold the port in the regular season. But most of guys here didnt understand that Gasol will be bench in the playoffs anyway unless they gonna face Nuggets as AD is having a hard time against Jokic. While with the Sixers, I think AD can handle Embiid. |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 11:34 am Post subject: |
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leking006 wrote: | yinoma2001 wrote: | leking006 wrote: | mad55557777 wrote: | unleasHell wrote: | Any lineup that has Gasol on the bench is bound to be a winning one...! |
what about our starting lineup with a net rating of +16.7 in 218 minutes? |
I forgot to add that up as I am thinking subbing Gasol with AC and assigning AD to center spot will be a better lineup with +51 net rating. Though with just a small sample size of 19 minutes, It's still what Vogel is using as closing lineup during close games. Maybe they should try using it as a starting lineup sometimes. |
AD doesn't want to start at center during the regular season. It's just something you have to understand will be a rule of thumb with him. It's frustrating but understandable, but we know when it's win time, he's closing at center. |
Yeah, that's why Gasol is in there, to hold the port in the regular season. But most of guys here didnt understand that Gasol will be bench in the playoffs anyway unless they gonna face Nuggets as AD is having a hard time against Jokic. While with the Sixers, I think AD can handle Embiid. |
I think we will always have a nominal center next to AD for that reason. JAV last year, Marc this year. Fill in the blank next 10 years.
You just don't want to burn out AD's candles in the regular season with him at center. Save those for win-time. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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Baron Von Humongous Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jul 2015 Posts: 32979
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Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 11:54 am Post subject: |
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Aeneas Hunter wrote: | I've never found 5-man unit analysis to be useful, especially when it focuses on oddball lineups that have played only a few minutes all year. When I look at the listing that you linked, my takeaways are (1) the basic starting lineup is +16.7, which is very good, (2) Lebron with the bench guys (Matthews, Harrell, Kuzma, and Morris) is just as poor as you would expect, and (3) the other combinations are a mixed bag. |
Is there any analytical framework you do find useful? _________________ Under New Management |
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Baron Von Humongous Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jul 2015 Posts: 32979
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Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 11:55 am Post subject: |
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mad55557777 wrote: | unleasHell wrote: | Any lineup that has Gasol on the bench is bound to be a winning one...! |
what about our starting lineup with a net rating of +16.7 in 218 minutes? |
_________________ Under New Management |
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LakersRGolden Star Player
Joined: 13 Jan 2002 Posts: 7910 Location: Lake Forest
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Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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yinoma2001 wrote: | leking006 wrote: | yinoma2001 wrote: | leking006 wrote: | mad55557777 wrote: | unleasHell wrote: | Any lineup that has Gasol on the bench is bound to be a winning one...! |
what about our starting lineup with a net rating of +16.7 in 218 minutes? |
I forgot to add that up as I am thinking subbing Gasol with AC and assigning AD to center spot will be a better lineup with +51 net rating. Though with just a small sample size of 19 minutes, It's still what Vogel is using as closing lineup during close games. Maybe they should try using it as a starting lineup sometimes. |
AD doesn't want to start at center during the regular season. It's just something you have to understand will be a rule of thumb with him. It's frustrating but understandable, but we know when it's win time, he's closing at center. |
Yeah, that's why Gasol is in there, to hold the port in the regular season. But most of guys here didnt understand that Gasol will be bench in the playoffs anyway unless they gonna face Nuggets as AD is having a hard time against Jokic. While with the Sixers, I think AD can handle Embiid. |
I think we will always have a nominal center next to AD for that reason. JAV last year, Marc this year. Fill in the blank next 10 years.
You just don't want to burn out AD's candles in the regular season with him at center. Save those for win-time. |
Nobody argues that we need a ball handler to "save" wear and tear on LeBron, but doing the same with a regular season Center for AD is seen as crazy. |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | Nobody argues that we need a ball handler to "save" wear and tear on LeBron, but doing the same with a regular season Center for AD is seen as crazy. |
Probably b/c LBJ is built differently than AD, and has never insisted on getting someone to take away his duties. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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ThePageDude Star Player
Joined: 25 Jul 2002 Posts: 2563
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Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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yinoma2001 wrote: | Quote: | Nobody argues that we need a ball handler to "save" wear and tear on LeBron, but doing the same with a regular season Center for AD is seen as crazy. |
Probably b/c LBJ is built differently than AD, and has never insisted on getting someone to take away his duties. |
I mean it's not that unreasonable - as you said they're built differently, LBJ has a natural advantage in having his once-in-a-generation body. AD has once-in-a-generation twitch/jump/length but not a tank of a body. |
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kikanga Retired Number
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29152 Location: La La Land
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Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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This thread reminds me of the Rondo threads last season. _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better” |
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troy Star Player
Joined: 30 Jan 2013 Posts: 4973
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Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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I agree 100%.
THT and AC are both better players than KCP. Why not play our better players? |
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Aeneas Hunter Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jul 2005 Posts: 31763
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Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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Baron Von Humongous wrote: | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | I've never found 5-man unit analysis to be useful, especially when it focuses on oddball lineups that have played only a few minutes all year. When I look at the listing that you linked, my takeaways are (1) the basic starting lineup is +16.7, which is very good, (2) Lebron with the bench guys (Matthews, Harrell, Kuzma, and Morris) is just as poor as you would expect, and (3) the other combinations are a mixed bag. |
Is there any analytical framework you do find useful? |
Sure. There are lots of metrics out there. The problem this sort of analysis is the focus on little-used lineups. The OP identifies a lineup that is +51 in 19 minutes, or less than one minute per game this season. We have no context about that lineup (Davis at center with Lebron, Casey P., Schroder, and Caruso). Who were we playing? What part of the game was it? Is a statistical fluke, like when we happened to make 10 of 12 threes when that lineup was on the floor? In a nutshell, you can't separate the signal from the noise. _________________ Internet Argument Resolved |
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leking006 Star Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2018 Posts: 6156
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Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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Aeneas Hunter wrote: | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | I've never found 5-man unit analysis to be useful, especially when it focuses on oddball lineups that have played only a few minutes all year. When I look at the listing that you linked, my takeaways are (1) the basic starting lineup is +16.7, which is very good, (2) Lebron with the bench guys (Matthews, Harrell, Kuzma, and Morris) is just as poor as you would expect, and (3) the other combinations are a mixed bag. |
Is there any analytical framework you do find useful? |
Sure. There are lots of metrics out there. The problem this sort of analysis is the focus on little-used lineups. The OP identifies a lineup that is +51 in 19 minutes, or less than one minute per game this season. We have no context about that lineup (Davis at center with Lebron, Casey P., Schroder, and Caruso). Who were we playing? What part of the game was it? Is a statistical fluke, like when we happened to make 10 of 12 threes when that lineup was on the floor? In a nutshell, you can't separate the signal from the noise. |
They are the closing lineup during close games if you watch the games. smh. I think most guys here know it without me detailing it. So if they are the closing lineup they are facing the best lineup of the other team. Just simple common sense here. And please click the link if yiu want more details on if they shoot better 3s. smh. I posted the link there. |
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leking006 Star Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2018 Posts: 6156
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Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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Aeneas Hunter wrote: | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | I've never found 5-man unit analysis to be useful, especially when it focuses on oddball lineups that have played only a few minutes all year. When I look at the listing that you linked, my takeaways are (1) the basic starting lineup is +16.7, which is very good, (2) Lebron with the bench guys (Matthews, Harrell, Kuzma, and Morris) is just as poor as you would expect, and (3) the other combinations are a mixed bag. |
Is there any analytical framework you do find useful? |
Sure. There are lots of metrics out there. The problem this sort of analysis is the focus on little-used lineups. The OP identifies a lineup that is +51 in 19 minutes, or less than one minute per game this season. We have no context about that lineup (Davis at center with Lebron, Casey P., Schroder, and Caruso). Who were we playing? What part of the game was it? Is a statistical fluke, like when we happened to make 10 of 12 threes when that lineup was on the floor? In a nutshell, you can't separate the signal from the noise. |
If you want detail here it is.
https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/traditional/?Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612747&CF=GROUP_NAME*E*Caruso:GROUP_NAME*E*Davis:GROUP_NAME*E*James:GROUP_NAME*E*Pope:GROUP_NAME*E*Schroder |
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leking006 Star Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2018 Posts: 6156
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Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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They are using this lineup just now vs hawks in the last 2 minutes of because its a close game. |
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leking006 Star Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2018 Posts: 6156
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Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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Aeneas Hunter wrote: | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | I've never found 5-man unit analysis to be useful, especially when it focuses on oddball lineups that have played only a few minutes all year. When I look at the listing that you linked, my takeaways are (1) the basic starting lineup is +16.7, which is very good, (2) Lebron with the bench guys (Matthews, Harrell, Kuzma, and Morris) is just as poor as you would expect, and (3) the other combinations are a mixed bag. |
Is there any analytical framework you do find useful? |
Sure. There are lots of metrics out there. The problem this sort of analysis is the focus on little-used lineups. The OP identifies a lineup that is +51 in 19 minutes, or less than one minute per game this season. We have no context about that lineup (Davis at center with Lebron, Casey P., Schroder, and Caruso). Who were we playing? What part of the game was it? Is a statistical fluke, like when we happened to make 10 of 12 threes when that lineup was on the floor? In a nutshell, you can't separate the signal from the noise. |
If you watch the game earlier, you will know now that they are just using it in the last minutes of a close game, hence the small total accumulated minutes in 6 games they use it. But they are using this lineup vs the opponent's best lineup and it's winning. You just need to watch for you to know, not just look at the data. |
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Aeneas Hunter Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jul 2005 Posts: 31763
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Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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leking006 wrote: | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | I've never found 5-man unit analysis to be useful, especially when it focuses on oddball lineups that have played only a few minutes all year. When I look at the listing that you linked, my takeaways are (1) the basic starting lineup is +16.7, which is very good, (2) Lebron with the bench guys (Matthews, Harrell, Kuzma, and Morris) is just as poor as you would expect, and (3) the other combinations are a mixed bag. |
Is there any analytical framework you do find useful? |
Sure. There are lots of metrics out there. The problem this sort of analysis is the focus on little-used lineups. The OP identifies a lineup that is +51 in 19 minutes, or less than one minute per game this season. We have no context about that lineup (Davis at center with Lebron, Casey P., Schroder, and Caruso). Who were we playing? What part of the game was it? Is a statistical fluke, like when we happened to make 10 of 12 threes when that lineup was on the floor? In a nutshell, you can't separate the signal from the noise. |
If you watch the game earlier, you will know now that they are just using it in the last minutes of a close game, hence the small total accumulated minutes in 6 games they use it. But they are using this lineup vs the opponent's best lineup and it's winning. You just need to watch for you to know, not just look at the data. |
So what's your point? You're throwing data at us, then telling us not to just look at the data. You're telling us that we sometimes close games with this lineup (6 games), but that usually we don't (14 games before tonight). I'd make an educated guess that this has something to do with matchups. So again, what's your point?
P.S. Learn how to use the URL tag so you don't keep screwing up the pages. _________________ Internet Argument Resolved |
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CervantesRises Star Player
Joined: 18 Jun 2016 Posts: 3914
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Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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Aeneas Hunter wrote: | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | I've never found 5-man unit analysis to be useful, especially when it focuses on oddball lineups that have played only a few minutes all year. When I look at the listing that you linked, my takeaways are (1) the basic starting lineup is +16.7, which is very good, (2) Lebron with the bench guys (Matthews, Harrell, Kuzma, and Morris) is just as poor as you would expect, and (3) the other combinations are a mixed bag. |
Is there any analytical framework you do find useful? |
Sure. There are lots of metrics out there. The problem this sort of analysis is the focus on little-used lineups. The OP identifies a lineup that is +51 in 19 minutes, or less than one minute per game this season. We have no context about that lineup (Davis at center with Lebron, Casey P., Schroder, and Caruso). Who were we playing? What part of the game was it? Is a statistical fluke, like when we happened to make 10 of 12 threes when that lineup was on the floor? In a nutshell, you can't separate the signal from the noise. |
You're not wrong...but you didn't answer the question. _________________ "If You're Afraid To Fail...Then You're Probably Going To Fail."
- Kobe
#BannersOverBillboards |
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leking006 Star Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2018 Posts: 6156
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Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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Aeneas Hunter wrote: | leking006 wrote: | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | I've never found 5-man unit analysis to be useful, especially when it focuses on oddball lineups that have played only a few minutes all year. When I look at the listing that you linked, my takeaways are (1) the basic starting lineup is +16.7, which is very good, (2) Lebron with the bench guys (Matthews, Harrell, Kuzma, and Morris) is just as poor as you would expect, and (3) the other combinations are a mixed bag. |
Is there any analytical framework you do find useful? |
Sure. There are lots of metrics out there. The problem this sort of analysis is the focus on little-used lineups. The OP identifies a lineup that is +51 in 19 minutes, or less than one minute per game this season. We have no context about that lineup (Davis at center with Lebron, Casey P., Schroder, and Caruso). Who were we playing? What part of the game was it? Is a statistical fluke, like when we happened to make 10 of 12 threes when that lineup was on the floor? In a nutshell, you can't separate the signal from the noise. |
If you watch the game earlier, you will know now that they are just using it in the last minutes of a close game, hence the small total accumulated minutes in 6 games they use it. But they are using this lineup vs the opponent's best lineup and it's winning. You just need to watch for you to know, not just look at the data. |
So what's your point? You're throwing data at us, then telling us not to just look at the data. You're telling us that we sometimes close games with this lineup (6 games), but that usually we don't (14 games before tonight). I'd make an educated guess that this has something to do with matchups. So again, what's your point?
P.S. Learn how to use the URL tag so you don't keep screwing up the pages. |
lmfao. This is not guess, this is facts. At least I watch the game and give data unlike you.
Last edited by leking006 on Tue Feb 02, 2021 12:02 am; edited 1 time in total |
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leking006 Star Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2018 Posts: 6156
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Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 12:01 am Post subject: |
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This lineup only played 2 minutes but as game closing team
.L. James, .A. Davis, .D. Schroder, .K. Caldwell-Pope, .A. Caruso
Today:
Off Rtng 183.3
Def Rtng 100
Net Rtng +83.3
Updated overall:
Off Rtng 144.4
Def Rtng 88.9
Net Rtng +55.6
GP: 6
Total Mins : 21
Total Pts: 65
Total FG%: 23/38 60.5%
Total 3FG%: 10/19 52.6% |
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