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yinoma2001
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 Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 10:35 am Post subject: AC/THT Must Get More Minutes |
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We have been trying to run 10-11 man rotations. I think we do have a surplus of guards, but after the first 25% mark, I think it's clear that we need to ensure these two players get more minutes.
AC has played in 16 out of 21 games, 17.9mpg.
THT has played in 17 out of 21 games, 15.8mpg.
AC had some COVID protocol reasons so he's sat out a few. THT has had a few DNP-CDs.
I think the way to getting these guys consistent minutes closer to 20+ mpg has to come at the expense of:
Dennis (31mpg, I think he should be more in the 26-28mpg range)
KCP (24mpg, I think he should be in the 22mpg range)
Wes (20mpg, I think he should really go down the furthest at this point to closer to 12-14mpg).
Collectively, that's 6-14mpg right there that can be siphoned to tighten the rotation. Of course we will have injuries and COVID-related issues, but I think we really need to start developing that AC/THT bench duo as much as we can (especially b/c both are FAs to be).
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poppies
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| Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 10:47 am Post subject: |
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| There's a fine line between ensuring your secret weapon duo has enough time to fully develop vs. letting that weapon be scouted into being ineffective cuz every team has seen plenty of what you have up your sleeve. Glad it's not my job to make that call! |
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ThePageDude
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| Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 10:52 am Post subject: |
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| poppies wrote: | | There's a fine line between ensuring your secret weapon duo has enough time to fully develop vs. letting that weapon be scouted into being ineffective cuz every team has seen plenty of what you have up your sleeve. Glad it's not my job to make that call! |
Last year Vogel managed that fine line beautifully; the playoff-absences of McGee/Howard pretty contributed to having lineups that hadn't been seen that much during the regular season. Add to that Rondo's resurgence. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 11:00 am Post subject: |
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| poppies wrote: | | There's a fine line between ensuring your secret weapon duo has enough time to fully develop vs. letting that weapon be scouted into being ineffective cuz every team has seen plenty of what you have up your sleeve. Glad it's not my job to make that call! |
Sure. But THT just turned 20. If out of anyone, he needs real time reps, and with no real G League this year (and he's way too good for that now), having DNPs just can't happen anymore. We need to really evaluate him b/c he's a RFA in a few months.
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lakersboy
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| Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | poppies wrote: | | There's a fine line between ensuring your secret weapon duo has enough time to fully develop vs. letting that weapon be scouted into being ineffective cuz every team has seen plenty of what you have up your sleeve. Glad it's not my job to make that call! |
Sure. But THT just turned 20. If out of anyone, he needs real time reps, and with no real G League this year (and he's way too good for that now), having DNPs just can't happen anymore. We need to really evaluate him b/c he's a RFA in a few months. |
I keep reading posts saying regular season doesn't matter. If that's true, it's even more important to play THT to groom him for the playoffs. He'll be mandatory by then, and his growth and experience will cause opponents fits by that time. He can be a non secret, secret weapon. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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I agree that we need to find out whether THT has the potential to be a significant contributor. But we gave him a pretty good run of playing time at the beginning of January. If THT wants more playing time, he needs to earn it. I wouldn't cut the minutes of Schroder or Casey P. to give more time to THT. Matthews is another matter, but we need to see if we can get him on track. I don't get the sense that the coaching staff is giving up on him just yet.
As for Caruso, at this point we know exactly what he brings. He is most likely close to his ceiling as a player. He could play another five or six years in the league, but he would need to make a remarkable leap in his offensive game to be anything more than a bench player.
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | I agree that we need to find out whether THT has the potential to be a significant contributor. But we gave him a pretty good run of playing time at the beginning of January. If THT wants more playing time, he needs to earn it. I wouldn't cut the minutes of Schroder or Casey P. to give more time to THT. Matthews is another matter, but we need to see if we can get him on track. I don't get the sense that the coaching staff is giving up on him just yet.
As for Caruso, at this point we know exactly what he brings. He is most likely close to his ceiling as a player. He could play another five or six years in the league, but he would need to make a remarkable leap in his offensive game to be anything more than a bench player. |
I think we are playing Dennis/KCP a bit too much though, especially if the opportunity cost is THT/AC minutes. The majority of minute reductions would be at the expense of Wes, who I had high hopes for.
We just have too many guards at this point, which was one reason I never thought Kuz would be a starting SG.
Dennis/AC
KCP/THT/Wes
Those are 5 guys vying for 96 minutes. It's hard to steal SF minutes b/c that's LBJ/Kuz, so Wes is just getting a bit squeezed here.
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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How is that an "opportunity cost"? Schroder and Casey P. are better players. THT and AC need to earn more minutes. I realize that they are fan favorites, but they are both getting an opportunity to show what they can do. In the case of a raw player like THT, 15 mpg in the NBA is a pretty good opportunity on a championship team. If we were a rebuilding/marginal team, we could give a kid like THT more playing time (for example, Lamelo Ball's up and down games with the Hornets). You may be overthinking this.
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | How is that an "opportunity cost"? Schroder and Casey P. are better players. THT and AC need to earn more minutes. I realize that they are fan favorites, but they are both getting an opportunity to show what they can do. In the case of a raw player like THT, 15 mpg in the NBA is a pretty good opportunity on a championship team. If we were a rebuilding/marginal team, we could give a kid like THT more playing time (for example, Lamelo Ball's up and down games with the Hornets). You may be overthinking this. |
THT isn't getting consistent minutes though. He'll play 2 games, sit out 2, etc., all for the sake of playing everyone.
Why does AC need to "earn" more minutes? He just started the closing game of a Finals series? I would say that Wes deserves less minutes based on play, and that Dennis and even KCP are playing a little bit too much. I want AC/THT to get regular minutes, not on an ad hoc/unpredictable basis. I think these two will be key to our fortunes this year.
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King Randle
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| Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Bottom line....it should be a 4 player guard rotation...Schroder, KCP, Caruso and THT...Matthews sits...it's that simple. Matthews has so far done much less than all of the above...forget, "give him to to adapt." All the others have proven their worth with the minutes offered. Time for Matthews to join his buddy Dudley...be ready if we need you. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | How is that an "opportunity cost"? Schroder and Casey P. are better players. THT and AC need to earn more minutes. I realize that they are fan favorites, but they are both getting an opportunity to show what they can do. In the case of a raw player like THT, 15 mpg in the NBA is a pretty good opportunity on a championship team. If we were a rebuilding/marginal team, we could give a kid like THT more playing time (for example, Lamelo Ball's up and down games with the Hornets). You may be overthinking this. |
THT isn't getting consistent minutes though. He'll play 2 games, sit out 2, etc., all for the sake of playing everyone.
Why does AC need to "earn" more minutes? He just started the closing game of a Finals series? I would say that Wes deserves less minutes based on play, and that Dennis and even KCP are playing a little bit too much. I want AC/THT to get regular minutes, not on an ad hoc/unpredictable basis. I think these two will be key to our fortunes this year. |
You would need to ask Vogel why THT gets some DNPs. He has played in 16 of 20 games. There could be any number of reasons for missing a couple games here and there. As for Caruso, he's playing about the same number of minutes as last year. Maybe he'll get more minutes in the playoffs, but his increased minutes in the playoffs last year probably had more to do with Avery Bradley opting out than with Caruso being some sort of secret weapon.
If Caruso and THT are the key to our fortunes this year, we're screwed.
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King Randle
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| Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | How is that an "opportunity cost"? Schroder and Casey P. are better players. THT and AC need to earn more minutes. I realize that they are fan favorites, but they are both getting an opportunity to show what they can do. In the case of a raw player like THT, 15 mpg in the NBA is a pretty good opportunity on a championship team. If we were a rebuilding/marginal team, we could give a kid like THT more playing time (for example, Lamelo Ball's up and down games with the Hornets). You may be overthinking this. |
THT isn't getting consistent minutes though. He'll play 2 games, sit out 2, etc., all for the sake of playing everyone.
Why does AC need to "earn" more minutes? He just started the closing game of a Finals series? I would say that Wes deserves less minutes based on play, and that Dennis and even KCP are playing a little bit too much. I want AC/THT to get regular minutes, not on an ad hoc/unpredictable basis. I think these two will be key to our fortunes this year. |
You would need to ask Vogel why THT gets some DNPs. He has played in 16 of 20 games. There could be any number of reasons for missing a couple games here and there. As for Caruso, he's playing about the same number of minutes as last year. Maybe he'll get more minutes in the playoffs, but his increased minutes in the playoffs last year probably had more to do with Avery Bradley opting out than with Caruso being some sort of secret weapon.
If Caruso and THT are the key to our fortunes this year, we're screwed. |
You prefer Matthews? Now that's getting really screwed. |
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LakersRGolden
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| Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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We can scale back on KCP, but we need to see what Wes has left. Schroeder needs to learn to be a starting pg next to LBJ and AD. Both of those things are going to take playing time.
THT and Caruso are known quantities for the coaching staff and playing them is less urgent right now. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | How is that an "opportunity cost"? Schroder and Casey P. are better players. THT and AC need to earn more minutes. I realize that they are fan favorites, but they are both getting an opportunity to show what they can do. In the case of a raw player like THT, 15 mpg in the NBA is a pretty good opportunity on a championship team. If we were a rebuilding/marginal team, we could give a kid like THT more playing time (for example, Lamelo Ball's up and down games with the Hornets). You may be overthinking this. |
THT isn't getting consistent minutes though. He'll play 2 games, sit out 2, etc., all for the sake of playing everyone.
Why does AC need to "earn" more minutes? He just started the closing game of a Finals series? I would say that Wes deserves less minutes based on play, and that Dennis and even KCP are playing a little bit too much. I want AC/THT to get regular minutes, not on an ad hoc/unpredictable basis. I think these two will be key to our fortunes this year. |
You would need to ask Vogel why THT gets some DNPs. He has played in 16 of 20 games. There could be any number of reasons for missing a couple games here and there. As for Caruso, he's playing about the same number of minutes as last year. Maybe he'll get more minutes in the playoffs, but his increased minutes in the playoffs last year probably had more to do with Avery Bradley opting out than with Caruso being some sort of secret weapon.
If Caruso and THT are the key to our fortunes this year, we're screwed. |
AC was a big key to our finals success last year.
THT is also one of the few players who can create off the dribble and score and even facilitate.
So yes, these two are actually core pieces this season, with AC reprising his role.
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| King Randle wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | How is that an "opportunity cost"? Schroder and Casey P. are better players. THT and AC need to earn more minutes. I realize that they are fan favorites, but they are both getting an opportunity to show what they can do. In the case of a raw player like THT, 15 mpg in the NBA is a pretty good opportunity on a championship team. If we were a rebuilding/marginal team, we could give a kid like THT more playing time (for example, Lamelo Ball's up and down games with the Hornets). You may be overthinking this. |
THT isn't getting consistent minutes though. He'll play 2 games, sit out 2, etc., all for the sake of playing everyone.
Why does AC need to "earn" more minutes? He just started the closing game of a Finals series? I would say that Wes deserves less minutes based on play, and that Dennis and even KCP are playing a little bit too much. I want AC/THT to get regular minutes, not on an ad hoc/unpredictable basis. I think these two will be key to our fortunes this year. |
You would need to ask Vogel why THT gets some DNPs. He has played in 16 of 20 games. There could be any number of reasons for missing a couple games here and there. As for Caruso, he's playing about the same number of minutes as last year. Maybe he'll get more minutes in the playoffs, but his increased minutes in the playoffs last year probably had more to do with Avery Bradley opting out than with Caruso being some sort of secret weapon.
If Caruso and THT are the key to our fortunes this year, we're screwed. |
You prefer Matthews? Now that's getting really screwed. |
What? You probably should read the whole discussion.
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activeverb
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| Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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| poppies wrote: | | There's a fine line between ensuring your secret weapon duo has enough time to fully develop vs. letting that weapon be scouted into being ineffective cuz every team has seen plenty of what you have up your sleeve. Glad it's not my job to make that call! |
If being scouted is going to make them ineffective, they really don't have much to offer. |
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hype
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| Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | poppies wrote: | | There's a fine line between ensuring your secret weapon duo has enough time to fully develop vs. letting that weapon be scouted into being ineffective cuz every team has seen plenty of what you have up your sleeve. Glad it's not my job to make that call! |
If being scouted is going to make them ineffective, they really don't have much to offer. |
I still clearly see a green unproven player in THT. Pretty much every game he has a stretch or two where it shows mightily and he either gets tunnel vision or tries to do a bit too much. The good clearly outweigh the bad and he has endless potential that im extremely excited for as a Lakers fan but he's still only 20. He def. tricks you at times and looks like a clear 10 year veteran out there dominating on both ends but then he does a few things that reminds you how young he really is.
Luckily we're deep and have not only an elite coaching staff but also all time great players to keep him in check and try to kill some of those bad early habits. Most players with his potential would just get extended minutes regardless but here he's getting pushed at every step which might be a bit frustrating right now but it's going to pay off big in the long run imo.
I believe by the end of the season he'll be a clear cut vital part of the every game rotation and likely start next season. |
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LakerSD
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| Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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Just get THT ready for the playoffs. Caruso can adapt to anything.
I trust Caruso more than any other player on this team not named Lebron. |
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TooMuchMajicBuss
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| Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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Absolutely agree with Yinoma on this.
There's a reason AC closed games as we won our title a few months ago. Beyond our superstars he is one of our best players, if you look at defense and overall impact on the game.
THT is very young, and I like seeing him learn NBA defense and how to scrap for everything alongside Caruso. No better opportunity for THT to learn how to impact a game far beyond his already prolific scoring capabilities. He has the physical tools to be a devastating defender if he does learn well. |
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2019
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| Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Seems like Wes has been officially replaced by THT. Save him for specific defensive assignments only. Burt all that speaks to our depth. Dude almost broke the 3 pointers in a game for us just a few weeks ago. |
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Laker4lifer4real
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| Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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| It was kind of assumed we would blow out teams and minutes would come in the 4th quarter for 10-11 in the rotation. That hasn’t happened as teams have killed us in the paint. Gotta get AD going to get late minutes for our bench. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 7:28 am Post subject: |
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| TooMuchMajicBuss wrote: | | There's a reason AC closed games as we won our title a few months ago. Beyond our superstars he is one of our best players, if you look at defense and overall impact on the game. |
I think some of you have gotten too infatuated with Caruso. He's a good defender, and that can make him fun to watch. But he's pretty much of a zero on offense. Last year, he stepped into Avery Bradley's minutes in the playoffs. He did okay, yet I get the impression that people grade him on a different scale because he's a fan favorite. This kind of reminds me of Dellavedova a few years back, but Caruso is a much better defender than Dellavedova. Still, a little bit of playoff notoriety got him overrated and then wildly overpaid.
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 7:34 am Post subject: |
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There are always guys who are good defensively but a bit anemic on offense. Bowen, Battier, to name a few. AC is different b/c he's a bench player and doesn't play as much as they did, but he is a pretty high impact player. Makes all the right defensive plays in crucial moments. That's an important player to have.
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 7:57 am Post subject: |
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Caruso-THT are carving out a nice role for themselves. I think Frank sees that they need consistent minutes, that is why he is going with a 9 man rotation.
However I think to really max out the impact, we need to do something about the 2nd unit that plays with Bron sitting. Usually it is Trez-AD-Kuz or THT-Caruso-Dennis.
This is not working. We should try AD-Kuz-THT-Caruso-Dennis or AD-Kuz-KCP-THT-Caruso lineups if sticking to a 9 man rotation. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 7:59 am Post subject: |
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That 2nd unit needs to start working on its PnR action. We have 2 bigs capable of PnR action in AD/Trezz, but we seem to run very stagnant sets.
With all its talent, this team is utterly dependent on LBJ to set the table all the time.
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