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activeverb
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 Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:54 am Post subject: |
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| CandyCanes wrote: | | nevitt_smrek wrote: | I tend to agree with Pokoy's opinions on Cooper.
Byron Scott was great guy to cheer for, but I'm not sure there are aspects to his career or game that scream HOF. IOW, is there anything that stands out? But perhaps there's oversight on my part.
For Cooper, I don't think many question that his defense was HOF level. He was one of the better 3-pt shooters of his era. Usually played well in Finals competition too. Being a bench player (mostly), having played only for the Lakers, and being one of the three guys from that era with 5 rings, are helpful to the narrative too. |
IMO when you consider Byron’s distinguished coaching career in conjunction with his playing career, he is HoF worthy. |
I wouldn't call a .412 lifetime winning percentage of a coach and two Eastern conference championships all that distinguished.
I have as much chance getting into the Hall of Fame as Byron Scott. Good player. That's about it |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:57 am Post subject: |
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| pokoy wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | As much as I loved Coop, I don't think he will get in. I mean if he does, so too should Horry, no? |
If Horry gets in it would be for a different set of criteria I think since he jumped to different teams. I love Horry but I don’t think he has enough individual accomplishments to get in.
Justification for Coop (not counting his coaching stints) would be his DPOY, 8x all defense, and being a key part of the legendary Showtime team which not only won 5 championships but also was a huge part of the NBA’s evolution. I know he’s not a multiple all star or anything and yes I am a biased Laker fan but not many all stars can boast being part of a historical team while winning individual accolades (I mean if T-Mac can get in, I’d be able to sleep at night with Coop getting in). |
If Coop gets in, frankly, it will be more because of the team he was on, then what he did as an individual player.
He would simply join KCJones as a Hall of Famer who is there because of the reflected glory of his teammates. |
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LakerDYnasty72
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| Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:04 am Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | LakerDYnasty72 wrote: | | Question: are there any 2nd or 3rd round picks in the HOF? |
Sure. I think the lowest pick to make it into the Hall is Maurice Cheeks at 36. Michael Cooper was in the same draft as him at 60.
Here's a fun one. I think the lowest pick to make an all-star team was Charlie Scott, at 106 in the 7th round. |
Got it. Mo Cheeks & Coop are in the same category to me in that they were great because of the precence of Dr. J. Bobby Jones, Billy Cunnigham, KAJ, Magic, etc.,
Not HOF. And I don't mean that in a negative way. |
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ToastedMuffins
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| Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2021 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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I think the general consensus among Lakers fans:
Could it happen: Possibly
Should it happen: Probably Not
Will it happen: We can only hope |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2021 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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I don't care if he never makes the HOF, but I always loved Coop growing up. One of my favorite Showtime players.
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activeverb
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| Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2021 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerDYnasty72 wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | LakerDYnasty72 wrote: | | Question: are there any 2nd or 3rd round picks in the HOF? |
Sure. I think the lowest pick to make it into the Hall is Maurice Cheeks at 36. Michael Cooper was in the same draft as him at 60.
Here's a fun one. I think the lowest pick to make an all-star team was Charlie Scott, at 106 in the 7th round. |
Got it. Mo Cheeks & Coop are in the same category to me in that they were great because of the precence of Dr. J. Bobby Jones, Billy Cunnigham, KAJ, Magic, etc.,
Not HOF. And I don't mean that in a negative way. |
Maurice is another weird one. He made the Hall in 2018, 20 years after he was first eligible. The Hall has been doing that a lot lately, letting in borderline guys who were sitting on the outside for a long time.
Vlade Divac, Bobby Jones, Paul Westphal, Chuck Cooper, Mo Cheeks, Charlie Scott, Jamaal Wilkes, Dennis Johnson, Gus Johnson.
Maybe that's good news for Coop
That said, Mo does have more individual achievements, being a 4-time all star. I wouldn't have put him in the Hall myself.
I guess the next guys up are Shawn Marion, Tim Hardaway, Joe Johnson, and LaMarcus Aldridge. |
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nevitt_smrek
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| Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2021 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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| TooMuchMajicBuss wrote: | Coop wasn't just along for the ride on all those titles, he helped win them. His defense was stellar throughout his NBA career.
As Pokoy said: | Quote: |
Justification for Coop (not counting his coaching stints) would be his DPOY, 8x all defense, and being a key part of the legendary Showtime team which not only won 5 championships but also was a huge part of the NBA’s evolution. |
I don't think it's a stretch, disappointment, or 'lower standard' at all to put Coop in the Hall of Fame. Just my opinion, subjective topic. |
It shows that there's more to the Hall than just the numeric stats. There's the "fame" aspect, which is more subjective. Some players get remembered for their key contributions & achievements on teams that had historic impact. We'll see if it's enough for Cooper to be inducted. Doubtful, but would be nice.
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Halflife
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| Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2021 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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| i love coop and want him in. Would he get his jersey up top if he makes it? |
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slavavov
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| Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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I'm sure most on this board will hate on me for this, but generally speaking, I don't think role players belong in the Hall of Fame. The HOF should be more restrictive so that the honor of getting in won't seem watered down.
The one exception to that off the top of my head is Dennis Rodman, because he wasn't just one of the greatest defenders ever, but also one of the greatest, if not the greatest rebounder ever, and the impact he made on his teams felt like that of a legit All-Star.
I wasn't around in the 80s, but if I were, I would've been a big Michael Cooper fan. I also like him as a man because of his passion and how he keeps things real.
But I don't think he was the kind of player who should be in the HOF.
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TooMuchMajicBuss
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| Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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| nevitt_smrek wrote: | | TooMuchMajicBuss wrote: | Coop wasn't just along for the ride on all those titles, he helped win them. His defense was stellar throughout his NBA career.
As Pokoy said: | Quote: |
Justification for Coop (not counting his coaching stints) would be his DPOY, 8x all defense, and being a key part of the legendary Showtime team which not only won 5 championships but also was a huge part of the NBA’s evolution. |
I don't think it's a stretch, disappointment, or 'lower standard' at all to put Coop in the Hall of Fame. Just my opinion, subjective topic. |
It shows that there's more to the Hall than just the numeric stats. There's the "fame" aspect, which is more subjective. Some players get remembered for their key contributions & achievements on teams that had historic impact. We'll see if it's enough for Cooper to be inducted. Doubtful, but would be nice. |
Yep. It is subjective, not derived by a formula.
Coop was an all-time great defender and he played a part in one of the greatest and most transformative teams in NBA history, the Showtime Lakers, winning all those titles. That matters more than stat lines IMO.
But yes, evaluation of what constitutes fame is very subjective. |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2021 7:02 am Post subject: |
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| TooMuchMajicBuss wrote: | | nevitt_smrek wrote: | | TooMuchMajicBuss wrote: | Coop wasn't just along for the ride on all those titles, he helped win them. His defense was stellar throughout his NBA career.
As Pokoy said: | Quote: |
Justification for Coop (not counting his coaching stints) would be his DPOY, 8x all defense, and being a key part of the legendary Showtime team which not only won 5 championships but also was a huge part of the NBA’s evolution. |
I don't think it's a stretch, disappointment, or 'lower standard' at all to put Coop in the Hall of Fame. Just my opinion, subjective topic. |
It shows that there's more to the Hall than just the numeric stats. There's the "fame" aspect, which is more subjective. Some players get remembered for their key contributions & achievements on teams that had historic impact. We'll see if it's enough for Cooper to be inducted. Doubtful, but would be nice. |
Yep. It is subjective, not derived by a formula.
Coop was an all-time great defender and he played a part in one of the greatest and most transformative teams in NBA history, the Showtime Lakers, winning all those titles. That matters more than stat lines IMO.
But yes, evaluation of what constitutes fame is very subjective. |
It's really beyond objective and subjective. The basketball Hall of Fame is really political, especially compared to other hall of Fames.
For example, a decade ago or so ago the NBA complained that not enough players were getting into the Hall (which was bad for the NBA from a marketing standpoint.) The Hall, which has a deep and financial connection to the NBA, immediately let in a lot of players. It was obvious to everyone the Hall was changing its criteria at the time just to appease the NBA and it's marketing needs.
The process of how players get elected is very secretive. It's not like the baseball Hall of Fame where you know who the voters are and the votes are made public. I get a sense there's a lot of log rolling and favor swapping that determines who gets in. |
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Halflife
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| Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2021 10:38 am Post subject: |
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Who doesnt fit.
Kobe
Tim Duncan
MJ
CWebb
Obviously Im bias for anyone laker especially the era of when i was young. I would like to see Coop but hes not worthy. neither are bosh, Pierce, webb etc. it should only be for elite elite.
Or have a ring of honor inside the hall for the upper echelon guys. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2021 11:11 am Post subject: |
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| Halflife wrote: | Who doesnt fit.
Kobe
Tim Duncan
MJ
CWebb
Obviously Im bias for anyone laker especially the era of when i was young. I would like to see Coop but hes not worthy. neither are bosh, Pierce, webb etc. it should only be for elite elite.
Or have a ring of honor inside the hall for the upper echelon guys. |
We are way past the point of no return. Really, the NBA needs its own Hall of Fame, so that we can weed out the guys who got in because of their college or international careers, and so that we can reset the standards that were wrecked by the induction of guys like K.C. Jones. But that's not likely to happen.
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activeverb
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| Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Halflife wrote: | Who doesnt fit.
Kobe
Tim Duncan
MJ
CWebb
Obviously Im bias for anyone laker especially the era of when i was young. I would like to see Coop but hes not worthy. neither are bosh, Pierce, webb etc. it should only be for elite elite.
Or have a ring of honor inside the hall for the upper echelon guys. |
This is an old debate for every Hall of Fame that exists. Some fans only want goat level players to be in the hall. The problem is that, with that criteria, you have so few new inductees that it's hard to generate interest in the Hall. Halls of Fame want to have induction ceremonies every year because they generate interest and revenue.and, as I noted before, it was the NBA that pressured the hall to start inducting more people for marketing purposes.
I don't think there's a need for a ring of honor. I mean, does anyone really need to have it pointed out that Maurice Cheeks isn't on the same level of Michael jordan?
Last edited by activeverb on Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:54 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Halflife wrote: | Who doesnt fit.
Kobe
Tim Duncan
MJ
CWebb
Obviously Im bias for anyone laker especially the era of when i was young. I would like to see Coop but hes not worthy. neither are bosh, Pierce, webb etc. it should only be for elite elite.
Or have a ring of honor inside the hall for the upper echelon guys. |
We are way past the point of no return. Really, the NBA needs its own Hall of Fame, so that we can weed out the guys who got in because of their college or international careers, and so that we can reset the standards that were wrecked by the induction of guys like K.C. Jones. But that's not likely to happen. |
I doubt the NBA will ever establish its own Hall of fame. The league already calls the shots at the Naismith Hall of fame.And I think so few people care about this it's hard to see the NBA putting time and resources into this. They're happy coming out with their occasional team of the half-century list and things like that |
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32
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| Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2021 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Halflife wrote: | | i love coop and want him in. Would he get his jersey up top if he makes it? |
Yes.
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activeverb
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| Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2021 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Halflife wrote: | | i love coop and want him in. Would he get his jersey up top if he makes it? |
Sure. The Lakers retired the jerseys of Wilkes and Goodrich soon after they made the Hall after years of waiting. The same would happen with Coop. |
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Koalita
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| Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2021 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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| If the NBA creates his own Hall of Fame, they would probably induct a lot more players than some people expect them to. After all the NBA is behind the raise in player inductees in the HoF (which also closes the option of the NBA doing a Hall of Fame when the existing one is doing what they are asking...) |
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pokoy
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| Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2021 6:04 am Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | pokoy wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | As much as I loved Coop, I don't think he will get in. I mean if he does, so too should Horry, no? |
If Horry gets in it would be for a different set of criteria I think since he jumped to different teams. I love Horry but I don’t think he has enough individual accomplishments to get in.
Justification for Coop (not counting his coaching stints) would be his DPOY, 8x all defense, and being a key part of the legendary Showtime team which not only won 5 championships but also was a huge part of the NBA’s evolution. I know he’s not a multiple all star or anything and yes I am a biased Laker fan but not many all stars can boast being part of a historical team while winning individual accolades (I mean if T-Mac can get in, I’d be able to sleep at night with Coop getting in). |
If Coop gets in, frankly, it will be more because of the team he was on, then what he did as an individual player.
He would simply join KCJones as a Hall of Famer who is there because of the reflected glory of his teammates. |
Exactly. And I’m good with that. He was a key guy on the team and won a DPOY. |
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DrDent
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| Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2021 8:12 am Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | Who knows?
Cooper got nominated for the first time 25 years after he was first eligible.
The Hall seems like a logrolling outfit, so maybe some of his Laker pals got on some nominating committee and pushed for him.
Can't think of any other reason why his name suddenly came up. |
Yup. This sorta came outa nowhere, at least for me. Someone who did not watch Coop play could have an entirely different view of him than what he actually was as a result of it...but, like you say, the basketball HoF is becoming come one, come all. Or maybe it was always that way.
Don't get me wrong, I liked having him on the team. But watching him in comparison to the other guys playing in the 80's even on his own team? Ahh...nope. |
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DrDent
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| Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2021 8:14 am Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | pokoy wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | As much as I loved Coop, I don't think he will get in. I mean if he does, so too should Horry, no? |
If Horry gets in it would be for a different set of criteria I think since he jumped to different teams. I love Horry but I don’t think he has enough individual accomplishments to get in.
Justification for Coop (not counting his coaching stints) would be his DPOY, 8x all defense, and being a key part of the legendary Showtime team which not only won 5 championships but also was a huge part of the NBA’s evolution. I know he’s not a multiple all star or anything and yes I am a biased Laker fan but not many all stars can boast being part of a historical team while winning individual accolades (I mean if T-Mac can get in, I’d be able to sleep at night with Coop getting in). |
If Coop gets in, frankly, it will be more because of the team he was on, then what he did as an individual player.
He would simply join KCJones as a Hall of Famer who is there because of the reflected glory of his teammates. |
Active - good take on that. |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2021 9:29 am Post subject: |
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| Koalita wrote: | | If the NBA creates his own Hall of Fame, they would probably induct a lot more players than some people expect them to. After all the NBA is behind the raise in player inductees in the HoF (which also closes the option of the NBA doing a Hall of Fame when the existing one is doing what they are asking...) |
The main difference would be guys who clearly got in because of international and college player - the Dino Radjas and Bill Bradleys.
I don't think the NBA would be anymore strict on borderline NBA guys like Maurice Cheeks and Paul Westphal. |
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anth2000
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| Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2021 8:38 am Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | Koalita wrote: | | If the NBA creates his own Hall of Fame, they would probably induct a lot more players than some people expect them to. After all the NBA is behind the raise in player inductees in the HoF (which also closes the option of the NBA doing a Hall of Fame when the existing one is doing what they are asking...) |
The main difference would be guys who clearly got in because of international and college player - the Dino Radjas and Bill Bradleys.
I don't think the NBA would be anymore strict on borderline NBA guys like Maurice Cheeks and Paul Westphal. |
With these two guys in, Coop should be a shoe in. |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:50 am Post subject: |
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| anth2000 wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | Koalita wrote: | | If the NBA creates his own Hall of Fame, they would probably induct a lot more players than some people expect them to. After all the NBA is behind the raise in player inductees in the HoF (which also closes the option of the NBA doing a Hall of Fame when the existing one is doing what they are asking...) |
The main difference would be guys who clearly got in because of international and college player - the Dino Radjas and Bill Bradleys.
I don't think the NBA would be anymore strict on borderline NBA guys like Maurice Cheeks and Paul Westphal. |
With these two guys in, Coop should be a shoe in. |
Not really. Westphal and Cheeks were borderline, but they had a lot of the traditional individual accomplishments -- like all-star and all-NBA teams -- that Coop lacks. So their getting in doesn't indicate anything about Coop's chances.
Basketball reference has a formula where they compare a guy's Hall of Fame chances to people who were previously inducted to see their chances of getting in.
Cheeks was 54.7% Westphal was 44.4% Cooper is 1.2% |
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Legacy
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| Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2021 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Halflife wrote: | | i love coop and want him in. Would he get his jersey up top if he makes it? |
I want him in too, and yes. |
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