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LGFan
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:41 pm    Post subject:

DancingBarry wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
He was fighting hard on defense.


Don't know if someone said something at half time, but definitely a tale of two halves. He really picked it up after a poor start on that end.


Rondo told him to STFU and play some defense....
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:58 pm    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:


When you have someone post 31/13/10 for the game, and when they wind up a net 0, it is fair to ask whether those stats really capture the value of his performance.


Come on AH. If someone has those stats and a 0 +/- the logical thing to ask is, what are the other 4 people he played alongside doing?

Be reasonable. Russ had some disappointing games. But recently that hasn’t been the case.


Sure, but you also need to ask about defense and turnovers, as well as the way that a player affects the play of his teammates. It will be interesting to see the metrics when we have enough data.
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kikanga
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 7:02 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
kikanga wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:


When you have someone post 31/13/10 for the game, and when they wind up a net 0, it is fair to ask whether those stats really capture the value of his performance.


Come on AH. If someone has those stats and a 0 +/- the logical thing to ask is, what are the other 4 people he played alongside doing?

Be reasonable. Russ had some disappointing games. But recently that hasn’t been the case.


Sure, but you also need to ask about defense and turnovers, as well as the way that a player affects the play of his teammates. It will be interesting to see the metrics when we have enough data.


Defense and metrics go together like a peanut butter and salami sandwich. You know that.

Did you like the FT's last night at least?
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 7:23 am    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
Defense and metrics go together like a peanut butter and salami sandwich. You know that.

Did you like the FT's last night at least?


What? Welcome to 2005. You do realize that metrics have advanced beyond PER, right?
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kikanga
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:07 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
kikanga wrote:
Defense and metrics go together like a peanut butter and salami sandwich. You know that.

Did you like the FT's last night at least?


What? Welcome to 2005. You do realize that metrics have advanced beyond PER, right?


Name a defensive metric stat you believe in.

I swear we've played this game before. But I guess it was someone else.
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J.C. Smith
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:09 am    Post subject:

He's quietly becoming net positive over the past 7 games.

    * Last night he was a +14 in an 8 point win. That was +16 ahead of the #2 starter (THT at -2).
    * In the previous game a 6 point loss to the Knicks he was a +0, which was third best among starters and 4th best among the team.
    * In the 5 point win over the Pistons he was a +8, #2 amongst starters and #4 overall.
    * In the 22 point thumping by the Celtics he was a -12 which was tied with THT for the third best starter and the 7th best overall.
    * He was +3 in the 7 point loss to the Bucks. Tied with THT for second best as a overall (Davis was +5 as the best).
    * He was a -13 in the 18 point loss to the Bulls, which sadly was the second best amongst starters with the other three (AD, Anthony and Bradley) all being -21 or worse.
    * +11 in the 8 point win vs the Spurs, which was second best among starters (THT was the best) and third best overall.

Those numbers were a lot uglier a couple of weeks ago. He seems to be figuring out how he can fit in. It hasn't resulted in team success yet but it's hard to deny that he has been improving.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:17 am    Post subject:

There have been 3 iterations of lineups involving WB.

Big 3: that has not looked great, but they didn't get too many games either.

WB/AD: very underwhelming.

WB/LBJ: small sample size.

The real key is to see how the Big 3 perform together, and I'm just not sure how WB fits in with all of them together to be honest.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:27 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:

The real key is to see how the Big 3 perform together, and I'm just not sure how WB fits in with all of them together to be honest.


Same. We just haven't seen enough of it. And hopefully everyone can stay healthy enough for us to see 40 games of them together by playoffs.

The floor spacing is a worry.
But he plays hard, wants to be a good teammate, Bron's done it with a big 3 before twice, and Bron and AD went out of their way to get him this offseason. So those things give me confidence.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:48 am    Post subject:

The only reason Westbrook is an odd fit is because of his inadequate jumper. Pelinka's attempt to compensate for this glaring weakness is to surround him w/shooters.

That is the experiment of all experiments for this season. He ain't going nowhere until we find out if there's enough shooting around him to win it all. No extensions should be forthcoming, unless we're stupid as he_l, if we conclude that it's a bad fit no matter how much shooting/others we have around him.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:49 am    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:

The real key is to see how the Big 3 perform together, and I'm just not sure how WB fits in with all of them together to be honest.


Same. We just haven't seen enough of it. And hopefully everyone can stay healthy enough for us to see 40 games of them together by playoffs.

The floor spacing is a worry.
But he plays hard, wants to be a good teammate, Bron's done it with a big 3 before twice, and Bron and AD went out of their way to get him this offseason. So those things give me confidence.


I think the real key here is to find that big power wing/small ball PF sized guy. Like if we had a Jerami Grant/Aaron Gordon/Larry Nance sort of guy, then WB would have more space to operate while we would have switchable size on D.

Right now, with our injuries we just don't have the full squad to evaluate this team. Putting Avery Bradley/Jordan is really a disservice to the team and even WB.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:57 am    Post subject:

The problem with this guy is here will be getting paid 47m and will ask for extension.

His style is play doesn't translates into winning basketball. Trade him asap if someone if dumber then Rob to do it
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:06 am    Post subject:

LGFan wrote:
The problem with this guy is here will be getting paid 47m and will ask for extension.

His style is play doesn't translates into winning basketball. Trade him asap if someone if dumber then Rob to do it


Right. It's a 2 part analysis for me.

1. how does he fit THIS season? I think it can work.

2. he will 100% ask for an extension for his age 34-36 year seasons. And it won't be cheap, and the Lakers may have backed themselves into an ugly corner where they may feel that they can't just let him go. However, remember we traded Green/1st for Dennis, and we let him walk (though we offered him a 4 year/84m deal).
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:10 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
LGFan wrote:
The problem with this guy is here will be getting paid 47m and will ask for extension.

His style is play doesn't translates into winning basketball. Trade him asap if someone if dumber then Rob to do it


Right. It's a 2 part analysis for me.

1. how does he fit THIS season? I think it can work.

2. he will 100% ask for an extension for his age 34-36 year seasons. And it won't be cheap, and the Lakers may have backed themselves into an ugly corner where they may feel that they can't just let him go. However, remember we traded Green/1st for Dennis, and we let him walk (though we offered him a 4 year/84m deal).


I'm not waiting til the end of the season to say if we don't win it all, or come da_n close enough to be optimistic that a few tweaks can get us over the hump,
the FO, Jeannie, and all the above, would be dumb as he_l to give Westbrook an extension.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:10 am    Post subject:

Quote:
Russell Westbrook over his last 3 games:

25.7 PPG
9.7 RPG
8.3 APG
46% FG
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mad55557777
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:23 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
There have been 3 iterations of lineups involving WB.

Big 3: that has not looked great, but they didn't get too many games either.

WB/AD: very underwhelming.

WB/LBJ: small sample size.

The real key is to see how the Big 3 perform together, and I'm just not sure how WB fits in with all of them together to be honest.

Unfortunately for big 3 to be on the court at the same time, the other 2 players have to be shooters, that means no THT.
I kind of like the combo of monk and Ellington or melo/ monk or melo/wayne
It really depends on who is hot. The spacing was great when these guys were on the court last night
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:24 am    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
kikanga wrote:
Defense and metrics go together like a peanut butter and salami sandwich. You know that.

Did you like the FT's last night at least?


What? Welcome to 2005. You do realize that metrics have advanced beyond PER, right?


Name a defensive metric stat you believe in.

I swear we've played this game before. But I guess it was someone else.


As a readily available metric, DRPM is pretty good. It can produce some anomalous results on a single season basis, but it is pretty accurate on a multi-year basis. PIPM used to be a good metric, but the guy who generated it shut it down. You can always go.with RAPM, though I’m not sure anyone is updating it. There are some other metrics out there that I see from time to time,.

But I get it. There are some of you who are going to nit-pick anything that doesn’t support your subjective opinion. It’s cool. There are people like that in every sport.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:26 am    Post subject:

There is a good chance Westbrook goes bonkers after the all star break he has a history of doing it, you don’t trade Westbrook unless it’s for someone really good, I have read Westbrook for Simmons/Curry/Green maybe that deal can be possible if Westbrook experiment doesn’t work with LeBron and Davis.
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governator
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:35 am    Post subject:

Inspector Gadget wrote:
Quote:
Russell Westbrook over his last 3 games:

25.7 PPG
9.7 RPG
8.3 APG
46% FG


on the road
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:36 am    Post subject:

LGFan wrote:
The problem with this guy is here will be getting paid 47m and will ask for extension.

His style is play doesn't translates into winning basketball. Trade him asap if someone if dumber then Rob to do it


I don't see how this is bad for us. Yes he's going to make 47 million but he's an expiring contract. If we simply say no we're not going to extend him, he can decline his option and go look else where for a more secure contract with more years. I would hope he goes with option 2.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:38 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
Inspector Gadget wrote:
Quote:
Russell Westbrook over his last 3 games:

25.7 PPG
9.7 RPG
8.3 APG
46% FG


on the road


While still getting accustom to his teammates.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:03 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
Inspector Gadget wrote:
Quote:
Russell Westbrook over his last 3 games:

25.7 PPG
9.7 RPG
8.3 APG
46% FG


on the road


Progress I guess.

But I think it is fair to also throw into the discussion the 13 TOs, 5/15 3pts, 18 shots a game including airballs and out of control missed layups and some questionable defense at times.

All players have strengths and weaknesses but Westbrook may be one of the most extreme cases in the league.

Seeing him play every night is eye opening to just how big a disparity it is. One quarter he is non existent or worse, making multiple poor plays in a row. Then the next quarter he will score 10pts, make some great assists and be active as hell in creating TO's.

I honestly have no clue what you do with that inconsistency. At this point neither do the coaches and his teammates. I am guessing Pelinka already has a migraine looking forward to the extension issue.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:05 am    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
kikanga wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:


When you have someone post 31/13/10 for the game, and when they wind up a net 0, it is fair to ask whether those stats really capture the value of his performance.


Come on AH. If someone has those stats and a 0 +/- the logical thing to ask is, what are the other 4 people he played alongside doing?

Be reasonable. Russ had some disappointing games. But recently that hasn’t been the case.


Sure, but you also need to ask about defense and turnovers, as well as the way that a player affects the play of his teammates. It will be interesting to see the metrics when we have enough data.


Defense and metrics go together like a peanut butter and salami sandwich. You know that.

Did you like the FT's last night at least?


I'm confused-- why is Westbrook a poor defender when he's an elite athlete and has tons of energy? I thought poor defenders were generally unathletic.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:18 am    Post subject:

CandyCanes wrote:
kikanga wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
kikanga wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:


When you have someone post 31/13/10 for the game, and when they wind up a net 0, it is fair to ask whether those stats really capture the value of his performance.


Come on AH. If someone has those stats and a 0 +/- the logical thing to ask is, what are the other 4 people he played alongside doing?

Be reasonable. Russ had some disappointing games. But recently that hasn’t been the case.


Sure, but you also need to ask about defense and turnovers, as well as the way that a player affects the play of his teammates. It will be interesting to see the metrics when we have enough data.


Defense and metrics go together like a peanut butter and salami sandwich. You know that.

Did you like the FT's last night at least?


I'm confused-- why is Westbrook a poor defender when he's an elite athlete and has tons of energy? I thought poor defenders were generally unathletic.


IMO because he is trying to do too much instead of doing his assignment.

Watch him float off his man too often, leaving him open for an open shot or open lane into the paint. To his credit, he seems to be trying to make something happen. But good teams and players exploit his wandering defense too often.

Kind of goes to the other side of your comment, why can less athletic players have an impact on defense?

Answer: Reading the play, cutting off angles, being in position, accepting the overall defensive concepts and assignments instead of freelancing.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:03 am    Post subject:

How can a player who can't shoot and defend get to make 40M and year?

And he has never been on a championship team.

Can't figure it out how he is on the Lakers.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:08 am    Post subject:

laker50 wrote:
How can a player who can't shoot and defend get to make 40M and year?

And he has never been on a championship team.

Can't figure it out how he is on the Lakers.


The OKC Thunder with Durant and Westbrook were a championship contender, stop making things up.
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