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Brawn13
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:05 pm    Post subject:

Four Decade Bandwagon wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
kikanga wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
kikanga wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:


When you have someone post 31/13/10 for the game, and when they wind up a net 0, it is fair to ask whether those stats really capture the value of his performance.


Come on AH. If someone has those stats and a 0 +/- the logical thing to ask is, what are the other 4 people he played alongside doing?

Be reasonable. Russ had some disappointing games. But recently that hasn’t been the case.


Sure, but you also need to ask about defense and turnovers, as well as the way that a player affects the play of his teammates. It will be interesting to see the metrics when we have enough data.


Defense and metrics go together like a peanut butter and salami sandwich. You know that.

Did you like the FT's last night at least?


I'm confused-- why is Westbrook a poor defender when he's an elite athlete and has tons of energy? I thought poor defenders were generally unathletic.


IMO because he is trying to do too much instead of doing his assignment.

Watch him float off his man too often, leaving him open for an open shot or open lane into the paint. To his credit, he seems to be trying to make something happen. But good teams and players exploit his wandering defense too often.

Kind of goes to the other side of your comment, why can less athletic players have an impact on defense?

Answer: Reading the play, cutting off angles, being in position, accepting the overall defensive concepts and assignments instead of freelancing.


It’s ingrained in his head to chase stats. He wants the steal, he wants the rebound. He searching for any opportunity to get those and it costs the team sometimes.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:08 pm    Post subject:

Brawn13 wrote:
Four Decade Bandwagon wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
kikanga wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
kikanga wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:


When you have someone post 31/13/10 for the game, and when they wind up a net 0, it is fair to ask whether those stats really capture the value of his performance.


Come on AH. If someone has those stats and a 0 +/- the logical thing to ask is, what are the other 4 people he played alongside doing?

Be reasonable. Russ had some disappointing games. But recently that hasn’t been the case.


Sure, but you also need to ask about defense and turnovers, as well as the way that a player affects the play of his teammates. It will be interesting to see the metrics when we have enough data.


Defense and metrics go together like a peanut butter and salami sandwich. You know that.

Did you like the FT's last night at least?


I'm confused-- why is Westbrook a poor defender when he's an elite athlete and has tons of energy? I thought poor defenders were generally unathletic.


IMO because he is trying to do too much instead of doing his assignment.

Watch him float off his man too often, leaving him open for an open shot or open lane into the paint. To his credit, he seems to be trying to make something happen. But good teams and players exploit his wandering defense too often.

Kind of goes to the other side of your comment, why can less athletic players have an impact on defense?

Answer: Reading the play, cutting off angles, being in position, accepting the overall defensive concepts and assignments instead of freelancing.


It’s ingrained in his head to chase stats. He wants the steal, he wants the rebound. He searching for any opportunity to get those and it costs the team sometimes.


So is Westbrook considered a low basketball IQ or high basketball IQ player? He led the league in assists, so surely that must mean he has elite court vision? Or is it just that he’s ball dominant?

Someone like Battier was not super athletic but was an elite defender. Or even Caruso.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:29 pm    Post subject:

What are the odds before they traded for him that there was a backdoor agreement regarding his player option is based on his performance and team success?
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:34 pm    Post subject:

miggz23 wrote:
What are the odds before they traded for him that there was a backdoor agreement regarding his player option is based on his performance and team success?

the only contract agreement contingent on player/team success is Westbrook's extension. even if he plays terribly and the team goes nowhere, he'll opt in. but if there's a positive relationship, he can opt out and extend, which saves the Lakers a bit of money. the Lakers don't have a ton of room to build with the Lebron and AD contracts, but they can get below the tax line and get the full MLE for example

there's also the Deng money coming off the books

and 47 million for Russell in the final year seems bad, but it is a pretty amazing expiring contract to help a team wipe their slate clean, tank, and/or pursue a key FA the year after, though I can't identify which team that would be yet. maybe Portland after Dame gets traded somewhere else? something like http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yeaz47ot

or http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=y5jaxoq6

so the Lakers have some optionality
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:28 pm    Post subject:

CandyCanes wrote:
So is Westbrook considered a low basketball IQ or high basketball IQ player? He led the league in assists, so surely that must mean he has elite court vision? Or is it just that he’s ball dominant?


I think often people will label someone a low IQ player because they make mistakes, and Westbrook makes plenty of those. But I don't think that is necessarily the case. Rondo is one of the smartest basketball players out there, he makes plenty of boneheaded decisions.

It's one thing to know and understand the game. And it's another thing to be able to make the right decision under duress. Westbrook sets up some plays very well, I think he understands the game well, but he makes some bad decisions in the heat of the moment.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:53 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
kikanga wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
kikanga wrote:
Defense and metrics go together like a peanut butter and salami sandwich. You know that.

Did you like the FT's last night at least?


What? Welcome to 2005. You do realize that metrics have advanced beyond PER, right?


Name a defensive metric stat you believe in.

I swear we've played this game before. But I guess it was someone else.


As a readily available metric, DRPM is pretty good. It can produce some anomalous results on a single season basis, but it is pretty accurate on a multi-year basis. PIPM used to be a good metric, but the guy who generated it shut it down. You can always go.with RAPM, though I’m not sure anyone is updating it. There are some other metrics out there that I see from time to time,.

But I get it. There are some of you who are going to nit-pick anything that doesn’t support your subjective opinion. It’s cool. There are people like that in every sport.



A broken clock is a working clock with just some anomalies.
Even if nit pickers argue other wise to support their subjective opinions.
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Last edited by kikanga on Thu Nov 25, 2021 4:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 4:28 pm    Post subject:

J.C. Smith wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
So is Westbrook considered a low basketball IQ or high basketball IQ player? He led the league in assists, so surely that must mean he has elite court vision? Or is it just that he’s ball dominant?


I think often people will label someone a low IQ player because they make mistakes, and Westbrook makes plenty of those. But I don't think that is necessarily the case. Rondo is one of the smartest basketball players out there, he makes plenty of boneheaded decisions.

It's one thing to know and understand the game. And it's another thing to be able to make the right decision under duress. Westbrook sets up some plays very well, I think he understands the game well, but he makes some bad decisions in the heat of the moment.


Off topic— but what about Lamar Odom? Elite passing from a big man, but also some very strange decisions.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 4:50 pm    Post subject:

miggz23 wrote:
What are the odds before they traded for him that there was a backdoor agreement regarding his player option is based on his performance and team success?


If you are asking whether RW agreed to not exercise his option and just give up $47 million if either he or the Lakers didn't perform well ... zero chance.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 4:54 pm    Post subject:

60 games to get WB to all star form, consistent all star form… doable, c’mon Brogel
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 4:55 pm    Post subject:

CandyCanes wrote:
J.C. Smith wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
So is Westbrook considered a low basketball IQ or high basketball IQ player? He led the league in assists, so surely that must mean he has elite court vision? Or is it just that he’s ball dominant?


I think often people will label someone a low IQ player because they make mistakes, and Westbrook makes plenty of those. But I don't think that is necessarily the case. Rondo is one of the smartest basketball players out there, he makes plenty of boneheaded decisions.

It's one thing to know and understand the game. And it's another thing to be able to make the right decision under duress. Westbrook sets up some plays very well, I think he understands the game well, but he makes some bad decisions in the heat of the moment.


Off topic— but what about Lamar Odom? Elite passing from a big man, but also some very strange decisions.

That was because Lamar was high most of the time haha
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:52 am    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:

A broken clock is a working clock with just some anomalies.
Even if nit pickers argue other wise to support their subjective opinions.


You think you’re clever. You aren’t. The NBA runs on metrics and analytics. The guys who build these “broken clocks” tend to wind up on the payroll of NBA teams.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:56 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
miggz23 wrote:
What are the odds before they traded for him that there was a backdoor agreement regarding his player option is based on his performance and team success?


If you are asking whether RW agreed to not exercise his option and just give up $47 million if either he or the Lakers didn't perform well ... zero chance.



I agree with this. But it wouldn’t surprise me if the Lakers have already discussed an extension with him or at least with his agent.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:57 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
kikanga wrote:

A broken clock is a working clock with just some anomalies.
Even if nit pickers argue other wise to support their subjective opinions.


You think you’re clever. You aren’t. The NBA runs on metrics and analytics. The guys who build these “broken clocks” tend to wind up on the payroll of NBA teams.


I'm not anti analytics. But I have yet to see a defensive analytical stat that accurately gauges each player in the league. And whenever someone uses a defensive analytical stat, they always have to brush aside some player's rankings (which don't make sense). And they acknowledge player position and other factors are at play.

The defensive metric that is the most telling IMO is Defensive Rating per 100 possessions for 5 man, 4 man, and in some cases, 3 man lineups. And that's because it is a self evident stat.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 7:11 am    Post subject:

I think we need to look at Trez and Dennis. While they were not "stars" of WB caliber. They were both rumored to have been in the market for 80M. Trezz had an offer in that range from Charlotte and Dennis was expecting to get paid so much he refused different extensions from the Lakers (up to 80M).

Trezz has a so so year in LA, he has to opt in and go to a team up his MLE value so he can get paid in a year.

Dennis had to take the MMLE.

And these guys had good RS for us. Not great but good RS.
Just a bad playoffs.

I don't think WB's value is at all the same as it was a few years ago. He's a MLE guy for most contending teams, and a 20-25M guy for teams with cap who wanna make the playoffs. Look at DeRozan's contract. 85/3. That's the absolute most WB can get, IMO, and that too by sign and trade. I think LA can easily keep him on 70/3. But should they? I don't think there's enough evidence there yet that shows we should keep him. Let it play out and worry after.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 8:01 am    Post subject:

Wolf, I think the point is that Dennis settled for the MMLE but the Lakers were the team that offered him 4 years/84m.

I see the same, the free agent market for WB will be tepid, IMO, something closer to MLE level (as I think teams know he won't age as well as CP3/Lowry who are good game managers who can shoot 3s). But, the Lakers will be THAT team that offers him 3 years/100m. That Dennis offer should scare us about what the Lakers may offer an older WB in an extension.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 8:24 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Wolf, I think the point is that Dennis settled for the MMLE but the Lakers were the team that offered him 4 years/84m.

I see the same, the free agent market for WB will be tepid, IMO, something closer to MLE level (as I think teams know he won't age as well as CP3/Lowry who are good game managers who can shoot 3s). But, the Lakers will be THAT team that offers him 3 years/100m. That Dennis offer should scare us about what the Lakers may offer an older WB in an extension.


Thee best deal is to trade him/tht for Simmons/green and seth curry
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 8:36 am    Post subject:

miggz23 wrote:
What are the odds before they traded for him that there was a backdoor agreement regarding his player option is based on his performance and team success?


I would say pretty low.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 10:14 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Wolf, I think the point is that Dennis settled for the MMLE but the Lakers were the team that offered him 4 years/84m.

I see the same, the free agent market for WB will be tepid, IMO, something closer to MLE level (as I think teams know he won't age as well as CP3/Lowry who are good game managers who can shoot 3s). But, the Lakers will be THAT team that offers him 3 years/100m. That Dennis offer should scare us about what the Lakers may offer an older WB in an extension.


We're all in right now. We have been since we signed Bron. We'll see if WB helps or hurts us in that regard come winning season (playoffs) . I expect our FO to act accordingly.

In the meantime, it would be nice to see our big 3 play 40 regular season games together. So we can get a clearer picture of what we have, what we don't, and what we need.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 10:25 am    Post subject:

So we didn't wanna pay $84M to Schroder yet we were more than willing to pony up $91M plus Kuz, KCP and #22 for a similar if not worse player? Genius. Executive of the year. Since Rob's so smart, let's let him continue construct our awesome, championship contending roster.

I wonder who's having a better year? the $6M player or the $44M one?
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 11:27 am    Post subject:

lakersfever714 wrote:
So we didn't wanna pay $84M to Schroder yet we were more than willing to pony up $91M plus Kuz, KCP and #22 for a similar if not worse player? Genius. Executive of the year. Since Rob's so smart, let's let him continue construct our awesome, championship contending roster.

I wonder who's having a better year? the $6M player or the $44M one?


Did anyone know that Westbrook was such a terrible shooter?
At UCLA he was a good defender and driver.
But it didn't seem he was such a terrible shooter.

Pelinka has to use his eyes as well as reading stats.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:17 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
activeverb wrote:
miggz23 wrote:
What are the odds before they traded for him that there was a backdoor agreement regarding his player option is based on his performance and team success?


If you are asking whether RW agreed to not exercise his option and just give up $47 million if either he or the Lakers didn't perform well ... zero chance.



I agree with this. But it wouldn’t surprise me if the Lakers have already discussed an extension with him or at least with his agent.


That I believe. I could see RW opting out to sign a three year deal with us for, oh, $100 million. But he won't just walk away from his final year to take a shot at free agency without any guarantees.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:19 pm    Post subject:

LGFan wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Wolf, I think the point is that Dennis settled for the MMLE but the Lakers were the team that offered him 4 years/84m.

I see the same, the free agent market for WB will be tepid, IMO, something closer to MLE level (as I think teams know he won't age as well as CP3/Lowry who are good game managers who can shoot 3s). But, the Lakers will be THAT team that offers him 3 years/100m. That Dennis offer should scare us about what the Lakers may offer an older WB in an extension.


Thee best deal is to trade him/tht for Simmons/green and seth curry


I can't see the 76ers going for that.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:52 pm    Post subject:

laker50 wrote:
lakersfever714 wrote:
So we didn't wanna pay $84M to Schroder yet we were more than willing to pony up $91M plus Kuz, KCP and #22 for a similar if not worse player? Genius. Executive of the year. Since Rob's so smart, let's let him continue construct our awesome, championship contending roster.

I wonder who's having a better year? the $6M player or the $44M one?


Did anyone know that Westbrook was such a terrible shooter?
At UCLA he was a good defender and driver.
But it didn't seem he was such a terrible shooter.

Pelinka has to use his eyes as well as reading stats.


He's 32. Not a rookie. There's more than enough tapes of him for anyone to determine what kind of a shooter he is. I refuse to believe Pelinka didn't do his due diligence on WB before making such a trade. I'm sure he didn't go "Oh, Lebron likes him so he must be really good so lets get him." Though based on how fast the trade went down from the moment WB was made available, I do believe Pelinka definitely "rushed" it.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:55 pm    Post subject:

The idea, in theory, was sort of defensible. Having a 2nd creator to take pressure off of LBJ.

But that should have been Lowry/CP3 type players, guys who take care of the ball and are defenders and great shooters.

WB at times makes AD/LBJ's life tough due to spacing issues. There will be times where WB will be a great force for the team, but other times where the spacing is really devastated too.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 2:01 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
The idea, in theory, was sort of defensible. Having a 2nd creator to take pressure off of LBJ.

But that should have been Lowry/CP3 type players, guys who take care of the ball and are defenders and great shooters.

WB at times makes AD/LBJ's life tough due to spacing issues. There will be times where WB will be a great force for the team, but other times where the spacing is really devastated too.


I think our spacing concerns exist even without him playing and even in the year we won the chip. We saw the pack the paint game plan by Phoenix last playoffs even with a point guard who in theory should hit from a higher percentage from 3 than Westbrook.

If you have LBJ & AD - teams will pack the paint because they do not want LBJ or AD killing them from the inside. You let LBJ back you down low post and he can kick out to shooters or he can back you down and fade away. Same thing with AD.

As preposterous as it sounds, you don’t have to play him in the fourth if he’s not hitting. I still believe our issue surrounds the fact that our shooters are not strong defenders so we don’t get out in transition anywhere near the same as the year we won.

The only thing I’d say about Lowry/CP3 is neither has been an Ironman as of late. Last playoffs I thought it was miraculous CP3 was not hurt significantly again. I also think all players next to LBJ outside of AD do turn into spot up shooters in the fourth.

Most of the issues I see with this team stem from the incremental debts of trading excess picks in trades, not playing AC. Having young player development like what the Warriors have done is something we simply did not value enough. Which I find odd because of how important THT & AC were during our championship runs. But while we traded Trez - I didn’t expect him to resign. Therefore from an asset standpoint, it was really Kuzma + KCP which I still think is a worthwhile trade. I also think Jeanie should have paid the bill on AC but that’s not RW’s fault especially if they knew this lucrative of a naming rights bill was feasible.

I’m not of conviction yet that RW was bad trade or a regrettable trade as many of here think so. Yes he does have his warts but I feel that AD has his. Personally I think LBJ & AD need someone of his temperament to bring that intensity in the regular season because it doesn’t seem like they do unless there is a fight or foul fan play.

I understand Russ is polarizing but I do also think he’s been much more of a positive as of late than is given credit for. I also think at times he does contribute to our slow starts and that deserves criticism as does his defense. But I really do feel he’s not at the age any longer where he can be elite at both. The youth and energy of Reeves or AC would be contagious for him, AD & LBJ.
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