Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 7:02 am Post subject: Without Lebron, the Rob Pelinka era would have been just the same like the Jim Buss era
If you think about it, without Lebron, the Lakers would be a lottery team just like in 2012 during the Jim Buss era. Only difference between Rob and Jim is Rob got Lebron while Jim didn't. If we didn't get Lebron, Rob would running a lottery team right now. And we wanted executive of the year for Rob in 2020. Boy, were we wrong. _________________ LeGoat! LeMazing! LeGend!
Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 7:23 am Post subject: Re: Without Lebron, the Rob Pelinka era would have been just the same like the Jim Buss era
lakersfever714 wrote:
If you think about it, without Lebron, the Lakers would be a lottery team just like in 2012 during the Jim Buss era. Only difference between Rob and Jim is Rob got Lebron while Jim didn't. If we didn't get Lebron, Rob would running a lottery team right now. And we wanted executive of the year for Rob in 2020. Boy, were we wrong.
I don't see how you can make this assumption.
Basically, every move that Rob has made was because Lebron was here.
If Lebron wasn't here, for all we know he would have made completely different moves.
So, I don't see how you can guess with any sense of accuracy who would be on the roster, let alone how that roster would have performed.
Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 7:42 am Post subject: Re: Without Lebron, the Rob Pelinka era would have been just the same like the Jim Buss era
activeverb wrote:
lakersfever714 wrote:
If you think about it, without Lebron, the Lakers would be a lottery team just like in 2012 during the Jim Buss era. Only difference between Rob and Jim is Rob got Lebron while Jim didn't. If we didn't get Lebron, Rob would running a lottery team right now. And we wanted executive of the year for Rob in 2020. Boy, were we wrong.
I don't see how you can make this assumption.
Basically, every move that Rob has made was because Lebron was here.
If Lebron wasn't here, for all we know he would have made completely different moves.
So, I don't see how you can guess with any sense of accuracy who would be on the roster, let alone how that roster would have performed.
The Jim Buss era started in 2004. His first move was to fire Phil Jackson. His first trade was Shaquille O'Neal in the worst trade in basketball history. His first draft pick was a 19 year old euro shooting guard, Sasha Vujacic. His first roster, so unbalanced, a team of small forwards -- Kobe Bryant, Caron Butler, Lamar Odom, Jumaine Jones, Deveon George and Luke Walton. His first MLE signing, a 35-year old Vlade Divac. His first coaching hire, Rudy Tomjanovich, quit mid-season due to alcoholism. That was also the first season the team, which had failed to make the playoffs only three times in history to that point, deliberately tanked for a draft pick. Any of that sound familiar? The infamous quote that his bartender Chaz was better than our scouting department. Please, enlighten us all, how Rob Pelinka should be compared to a failed horse trainer, Jim Buss.
Last edited by JUST-MING on Sat Nov 06, 2021 8:41 am; edited 5 times in total
The Jim Buss era started in 2004. His first move was to fire Phil Jackson. His first trade was Shaquille O'Neal in the worst trade in basketball history. His first draft pick was a 19 year old euro shooting guard, Sasha Vujacic. His first roster, so unbalanced, a team of small forwards -- Kobe Bryant, Caron Butler, Lamar Odom, Jumaine Jones, Deveon George and Luke Walton. His first MLE signing, a 35-year old Vlade Divac. His first coaching hire, Rudy Tomjanovich, quit mid-season due to alcoholism. That was also the first season the team, which had failed to make the playoffs only three times in history to that point, deliberately tanked for a draft pick. Any of that sound familiar? The infamous quote that his bartender Chaz was better than our scouting department. Please, enlighten us all, how Rob Pelinka should be compared to a failed horse trainer, Jim Buss.
I think your time frame is a bit off. Jim became VP of player personnel in 2005, and his first draft pick was Andrew Bynum.
In terms of stuff like hiring Rudy and firing Phil, it's hard to know how much of that was Jim's doing. Jerry Buss was still involved in those days, and exactly how the Lakers came to specific decision has always been a guessing game.
The Jim Buss era started in 2004. His first move was to fire Phil Jackson. His first trade was Shaquille O'Neal in the worst trade in basketball history. His first draft pick was a 19 year old euro shooting guard, Sasha Vujacic. His first roster, so unbalanced, a team of small forwards -- Kobe Bryant, Caron Butler, Lamar Odom, Jumaine Jones, Deveon George and Luke Walton. His first MLE signing, a 35-year old Vlade Divac. His first coaching hire, Rudy Tomjanovich, quit mid-season due to alcoholism. That was also the first season the team, which had failed to make the playoffs only three times in history to that point, deliberately tanked for a draft pick. Any of that sound familiar? The infamous quote that his bartender Chaz was better than our scouting department. Please, enlighten us all, how Rob Pelinka should be compared to a failed horse trainer, Jim Buss.
I think your time frame is a bit off. Jim became VP of player personnel in 2005, and his first draft pick was Andrew Bynum.
In terms of stuff like hiring Rudy and firing Phil, it's hard to know how much of that was Jim's doing. Jerry Buss was still involved in those days, and exactly how the Lakers came to specific decision has always been a guessing game.
Yeah Jerry Buss was still running the team. I remember all the hatred Mitch Kupchak used to constantly get. Lakers fans are very picky about who they give credit to. They wanted to give Jerry all the credit for the things that went bad, and Mitch all the credit for anything that went bad.
It's essentially the same with Jim Buss too. Who according to him, picking D'Antoni over Phil was Jerry Buss's decision, because that was where he saw the leagued headed, got lambasted by Lakers fans who called Jim a 'coward' for saying it was his dad's decision.
Low and behold when we let go of D'Antoni and brought in Byron Scott the Warriors started winning Championships and instead of being 2 years ahead of the curve we put ourselves 3-4 seasons behind it.
I always have believed that the last stroke of genius Jerry Buss had was seeing the direction the league was headed when he picked D"Antoni over Phil because of where he thought the league was headed stylewise. But it's something that will never be given to him.
But we went the opposite route and so did the Knicks. We decided to get Byron Scott to bring the 'old school' back cause 'three point shooting doesn't win Championships' and the Knicks brought over Phil and Derek Fisher because they thought 'triangle = championships'.
meanwhile the Warriors go on to create a dynasty based off that style and the rest of the league suddenly started to follow suit.
The problem is, Lakers fans still didn't want to believe it. Hence why they bashed the drafting of D'Angelo Russell over "old school center" Jahlil Okafor.
The mistake we made, was switching out D'Antoni for Byron. Had we kept that style as the Warriors ran rough shot, I can only imagine how much it would have benefitted Russell, Randle, Ingram in their development. AND we still could have transitioned from D'Antoni to Luke if we wanted to.
But anyway, saying "Without LeBron the Rob Pelinka era would've been" when you could just as easily say "Well if LeBron and Carmelo came during the Jim Buss era.. Kobe would have had his 6th ring." A lot of moves happened for us because LeBron came here, just as a lot of things happened with us because LeBron and Melo didn't come here sooner.
It's all part of that same circle of thinking.
We could easily have just said "if the NBA didn't veto the Chris Paul deal" to change the very fabric of how that 'era' was viewed and that'd be that. You could go a step further and go 'what if Lillard never broke Nash's leg' and do that part of it too.
We won the title in 2019-2020 because we were healthy. You could make the argument if Nash never gets hurt, we aren't barely making the Playoffs, Kobe doesn't have to play as many minutes because we're winning more games and never tears his Achillies. Heck you could even argue if Kobe never tore his Achillies, because the run we were on was an amazing one with him playing at an MVP level.
So there's a lot of 'what ifs' that would have changed our fortunes around completely, that is the nature of things. _________________ How NBA 2K18 failed the All-Time Lakers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxMBYm3wwxk
I always have believed that the last stroke of genius Jerry Buss had was seeing the direction the league was headed when he picked D"Antoni over Phil because of where he thought the league was headed stylewise. But it's something that will never be given to him.
Jerry Buss always preferred a wide-open, Showtime offense over Phil's triangle.
I'm not sure that D'Antoni's hiring was because of the way the league was heading, as much as wanting to pair him with Nash, with whom he'd had success in Phoenix.
But no way to ask him now.
Last edited by activeverb on Sat Nov 06, 2021 12:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
I always have believed that the last stroke of genius Jerry Buss had was seeing the direction the league was headed when he picked D"Antoni over Phil because of where he thought the league was headed stylewise. But it's something that will never be given to him.
I was never thrilled with the hiring of D'Antoni, but I agree that Dr. Buss was right to pass on a third round of PJ. _________________ Internet Argument Resolved
Mitch has done a decent job with Charlotte. Let's see what Rob can do with drafting. Or will he just keep signing FA's and trading away picks and top prospects? _________________ Music is my medicine
Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 1:06 pm Post subject: Re: Without Lebron, the Rob Pelinka era would have been just the same like the Jim Buss era
lakersfever714 wrote:
If you think about it,
If you think about it, any time any team isn't performing up to whatever unrealistic expectations that fans create in their own minds, those fans end up whining endlessly online and call for the heads of every GM, owner, player, trainer, anyone involved with the team.
If you think about it, every time that you have something to cry about which already exists in another thread, you seek attention for yourself by posting an entirely new pissing and moaning emo thread.
So just to help you out: a thread for how Westbrook sucks exists, a thread for how Lebron sucks exists, a thread for how AD sucks exists, a thread for how every Lakers role player sucks exists, a thread about how Pelinka sucks exists, a thread about how Jeannie Buss sucks exists, a thread about the Lakers training staff sucking exists, a thread about how the Clippers are the best also exists. Your utterly redundant, unoriginal pissing and moaning exists in already.
Also, we can play all sorts of similar games: if something that happened didn't happen, then things would be different. Really? You don't say? Here, lets go with: if the Lakers didn't draft Magic, they wouldn't have won 5 titles in the 80s. If the Lakers had not outbid the Magic for Shaq, they wouldn't have won titles in the 00s. If the Lakers hadn't traded for Gasol, they wouldn't have won 2 more with Kobe. Here is another hot take: if the Lakers GMs at those respective times had failed to make the moves they actually made, they would have had a much worse reputation and the team would have been worse off.
So what other whiny, unoriginal thoughts do you have to share with us 714?
Joined: 24 Dec 2007 Posts: 35812 Location: Santa Clarita, CA (Hell) ->>>>>Ithaca, NY -≥≥≥≥≥Berkeley, CA
Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 2:57 pm Post subject:
Vancouver Fan wrote:
Mitch has done a decent job with Charlotte. Let's see what Rob can do with drafting. Or will he just keep signing FA's and trading away picks and top prospects?
Phil is the greatest coach in NBA history. In what way was that the right move? _________________ Damian Lillard shatters Dwight Coward's championship dreams:
Joined: 24 Dec 2007 Posts: 35812 Location: Santa Clarita, CA (Hell) ->>>>>Ithaca, NY -≥≥≥≥≥Berkeley, CA
Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 2:58 pm Post subject:
activeverb wrote:
MJST wrote:
I always have believed that the last stroke of genius Jerry Buss had was seeing the direction the league was headed when he picked D"Antoni over Phil because of where he thought the league was headed stylewise. But it's something that will never be given to him.
Jerry Buss always preferred a wide-open, Showtime offense over Phil's triangle.
I'm not sure that D'Antoni's hiring was because of the way the league was heading, as much as wanting to pair him with Nash, with whom he'd had success in Phoenix.
But no way to ask him now.
Phil was given the offer and asked for 48 hours to think it over, which the Lakers did not give. It was a miscommunication. _________________ Damian Lillard shatters Dwight Coward's championship dreams:
Joined: 19 Nov 2007 Posts: 4372 Location: Lake Nacimiento
Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 3:15 pm Post subject:
kbitboc wrote:
If Rob didn't get Lebron, he would most likely gotten another star. Hard to say how it would turn out.
Yeah, this is kind of obvious imo.. We probably get Kawhi or Butler at least to pair with AD (maybe even 2 depending how they shifted around the salary cap) but regardless we would have been a dream spot for any super star perimeter player considering they get to play with a top 2 big in the NBA in a massive market and be the go to guy.
If Rob didn't get Lebron, he would most likely gotten another star. Hard to say how it would turn out.
Yeah, this is kind of obvious imo.. We probably get Kawhi or Butler at least to pair with AD (maybe even 2 depending how they shifted around the salary cap) but regardless we would have been a dream spot for any super star perimeter player considering they get to play with a top 2 big in the NBA in a massive market and be the go to guy.
That’s a huge assumption.
Here’s what we know…
Couldn’t close on our top coaching targets
Couldn’t close on Kawhi as our top FA target
As part of Magic’s tenure, couldn’t get a sit down with George/Mintz AFTER paying a 500k tampering fine for him
He was a player agent before, but that didn’t really help us even with his former clients in Iggy or finalizing Buddy, even after the Russ trade. He proactively traded for Schro, but couldn’t salvage him as an asset to revisit Buddy or do anything else other than lose him outright. Dude even couldn’t get back to Griff to do us a solid after we did him a solid with all those deferment options during the AD trade. Dude even had a hard time convincing AvBrad this past offseason and instead we used the waiver wire to force him to LA. He did convince Ariza back tho as his former agent…and then there’s also Dwight take III….so there’s that.
That being said, I still have my doubts with Rob/Kurt.
Quote:
From there, league personnel continue to ask where Dennis Schroder will land in this summer's spending spree. The Los Angeles Lakers hope to net returning talent in a sign-and-trade involving the 27-year-old, and they have not ended their search for ways to land Buddy Hield.
However, it appears the Lakers have not been in extensive contact with Schroder and his representatives, sources told Bleacher Report, and the two sides do not seem to be working in tandem ahead of the new league year beginning at 6 p.m. ET Monday. A sign-and-trade requires agreement from both teams and the free agents involved.
Several teams do still appear to be in play for Schroder. The Chicago Bulls, New York Knicks, New Orleans Pelicans and Washington Wizards all have an apparent need at point guard.
There's a strong sense around the NBA that the Bulls will extend a four-year, roughly $80 million offer sheet for Lonzo Ball. However, Chicago brass did contact executives and personnel around the league over the weekend, sources told B/R, exploring contingency plans centered around Schroder, DeMar DeRozan and Richaun Holmes should the Pelicans proceed to match the Bulls' offer.
There seems to be legitimate traction on a three-team sign-and-trade framework between Chicago, New Orleans and Charlotte that would likely nullify any of the Bulls' fears of losing out on their preferred point guard target. From conversations with multiple league sources, the framework that would be discussed appears to focus on landing Ball in Chicago, Devonte' Graham in New Orleans and Tomas Satoransky, Josh Hart and draft capital to Charlotte.
In any case, these talks can only begin in earnest once free agency opens, and the conversations will remain fluid. But should some version of this Ball-to-Chicago sign-and-trade come to fruition, New Orleans would have enough cap space left over to engage with Schroder. And if Graham also arrives in the Bayou, that would bring a two-guard backcourt with more shooting and enhanced playmaking ability around Zion Williamson and Brandon Ingram.
If Rob didn't get Lebron, he would most likely gotten another star. Hard to say how it would turn out.
Yeah, this is kind of obvious imo.. We probably get Kawhi or Butler at least to pair with AD (maybe even 2 depending how they shifted around the salary cap) but regardless we would have been a dream spot for any super star perimeter player considering they get to play with a top 2 big in the NBA in a massive market and be the go to guy.
That’s a huge assumption.
Here’s what we know…
Couldn’t close on our top coaching targets
Couldn’t close on Kawhi as our top FA target
As part of Magic’s tenure, couldn’t get a sit down with George/Mintz AFTER paying a 500k tampering fine for him
Let me add something. For all the talk about major free agents coming to LA, only two have ever done it when they were still elite players: Shaq and Lebron. Both were motivated in significant part because they wanted to be involved with Hollywood. Back in the 2000s after Shaq left, we had all sorts of free agent dreams -- Yao, Amare, Lebron, and more. We had the 2007 free agent plan, then the 2008 free agent plan. We never signed anyone, unless you count Vlad Rad, Fisher, and Artest. The big names blew us off.
We had a few years after we made the Gasol trade when we didn't have any cap space and didn't have any realistic means of clearing cap space. Then came the 2010s, when we got blown off by Lebron (again), Carmelo, Aldridge, and others. Hell, Howard walked on us even after we humiliated ourselves by putting up a billboard. Due to the Buss family drama, Mitch and Jim signed Mozgov and Deng because that was the best that we could do. Let that sink it. During the Magic/Pelinka era, the biggest free agent signings we've made other than Lebron were KCP and Green (and Montrezl Harrell, I guess). Let that sink in. We cleared tons of cap space, but couldn't sign any major free agent to join Lebron.
The point of all of this is that we should not live in a fantasy world in which the Lakers are some incredible free agent magnet. We should stop kidding ourselves that free agents are eager to come play here. Shaq and Lebron wanted to make movies, plus Lebron wanted to expand his brand. The rest of them have blown us off. James Ennis wants to come play here, but Kawhi and George took a pass. We've added pieces through trades (Davis and Westbrook), and trades require assets. So when we fritter away assets because we think we're going to hit home runs in the free agent market, it's maddening to some of us.
We may manage to sign a major free agent down the road. However, when someone thinks that Pelinka would just have signed another big name if Lebron didn't come, they need to look at history. If Lebron didn't come, Pelinka might have wound up talking to Mozgov/Deng level players. The true superstars don't seem very impressed with Lakers exceptionalism. I know that this is a bitter pill to swallow for a lot of people, but the historical record is what it is. _________________ Internet Argument Resolved
Joined: 19 Nov 2007 Posts: 4372 Location: Lake Nacimiento
Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 5:38 pm Post subject:
vasashi17+ wrote:
hype wrote:
kbitboc wrote:
If Rob didn't get Lebron, he would most likely gotten another star. Hard to say how it would turn out.
Yeah, this is kind of obvious imo.. We probably get Kawhi or Butler at least to pair with AD (maybe even 2 depending how they shifted around the salary cap) but regardless we would have been a dream spot for any super star perimeter player considering they get to play with a top 2 big in the NBA in a massive market and be the go to guy.
That’s a huge assumption.
Here’s what we know…
Couldn’t close on our top coaching targets
Couldn’t close on Kawhi as our top FA target
As part of Magic’s tenure, couldn’t get a sit down with George/Mintz AFTER paying a 500k tampering fine for him
He was a player agent before, but that didn’t really help us even with his former clients in Iggy or finalizing Buddy, even after the Russ trade. He proactively traded for Schro, but couldn’t salvage him as an asset to revisit Buddy or do anything else other than lose him outright. Dude even couldn’t get back to Griff to do us a solid after we did him a solid with all those deferment options during the AD trade. Dude even had a hard time convincing AvBrad this past offseason and instead we used the waiver wire to force him to LA. He did convince Ariza back tho as his former agent…and then there’s also Dwight take III….so there’s that.
That being said, I still have my doubts with Rob/Kurt.
Quote:
From there, league personnel continue to ask where Dennis Schroder will land in this summer's spending spree. The Los Angeles Lakers hope to net returning talent in a sign-and-trade involving the 27-year-old, and they have not ended their search for ways to land Buddy Hield.
However, it appears the Lakers have not been in extensive contact with Schroder and his representatives, sources told Bleacher Report, and the two sides do not seem to be working in tandem ahead of the new league year beginning at 6 p.m. ET Monday. A sign-and-trade requires agreement from both teams and the free agents involved.
Several teams do still appear to be in play for Schroder. The Chicago Bulls, New York Knicks, New Orleans Pelicans and Washington Wizards all have an apparent need at point guard.
There's a strong sense around the NBA that the Bulls will extend a four-year, roughly $80 million offer sheet for Lonzo Ball. However, Chicago brass did contact executives and personnel around the league over the weekend, sources told B/R, exploring contingency plans centered around Schroder, DeMar DeRozan and Richaun Holmes should the Pelicans proceed to match the Bulls' offer.
There seems to be legitimate traction on a three-team sign-and-trade framework between Chicago, New Orleans and Charlotte that would likely nullify any of the Bulls' fears of losing out on their preferred point guard target. From conversations with multiple league sources, the framework that would be discussed appears to focus on landing Ball in Chicago, Devonte' Graham in New Orleans and Tomas Satoransky, Josh Hart and draft capital to Charlotte.
In any case, these talks can only begin in earnest once free agency opens, and the conversations will remain fluid. But should some version of this Ball-to-Chicago sign-and-trade come to fruition, New Orleans would have enough cap space left over to engage with Schroder. And if Graham also arrives in the Bayou, that would bring a two-guard backcourt with more shooting and enhanced playmaking ability around Zion Williamson and Brandon Ingram.
I agree it's a toss up for sure but things would change A LOT if we had still traded for AD which is what im assuming in the scenario. Kawhi is a huge unknown as well but I remember there being a lot of talk about not wanting to team up with Bron. To have a chance to come to the Lakers being the top guy with AD as his running mate and depending on the roster movement could have also had the ammo to get another max or close to max player (or just solid depth).
In this case we have a top 2 big in the NBA entering his prime, some roster flexibility (especially 2 seasons ago) and the keys to a big market team. This situation would have been a very rare one and not something you could simply just say "look at history". A situation that's similar is when Shaq came here imo.
It's without question still far from a guarantee we sign someone I guess but that would be a pretty damn enticing situation for multiple guys to turn down. I'll be the first to admit i'm thrilled we never had to find out though because i'm very aware of the strikeouts we've had as well.
Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 5:53 pm Post subject: Re: Without Lebron, the Rob Pelinka era would have been just the same like the Jim Buss era
lakersfever714 wrote:
If you think about it, without Lebron, the Lakers would be a lottery team just like in 2012 during the Jim Buss era. Only difference between Rob and Jim is Rob got Lebron while Jim didn't. If we didn't get Lebron, Rob would running a lottery team right now. And we wanted executive of the year for Rob in 2020. Boy, were we wrong.
if it wasnt Lebron then Kawhi and Paul George would be here and you would have made same stupid thread replacing bron with Kawhi
I can't say. If we didn't have Bron, we may still have our young core and picks, maybe. Have another star applied with them, maybe. I don't know, some times Rob is careless with our assets. He has the ability to get free agents and sign buy out agents. That's his strong point.. He has showed the skillset with trades, also put a fitting team together. He is still learning and I feel he could have used a mentor.
Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 7:08 pm Post subject: Re: Without Lebron, the Rob Pelinka era would have been just the same like the Jim Buss era
activeverb wrote:
lakersfever714 wrote:
If you think about it, without Lebron, the Lakers would be a lottery team just like in 2012 during the Jim Buss era. Only difference between Rob and Jim is Rob got Lebron while Jim didn't. If we didn't get Lebron, Rob would running a lottery team right now. And we wanted executive of the year for Rob in 2020. Boy, were we wrong.
I don't see how you can make this assumption.
Basically, every move that Rob has made was because Lebron was here.
If Lebron wasn't here, for all we know he would have made completely different moves.
So, I don't see how you can guess with any sense of accuracy who would be on the roster, let alone how that roster would have performed.
Without having lived what would have actually happened, no one knows what a Lebronless team would have been.
Every time you ASSUME.... _________________ Lakers need to build a freaking team !
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