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GOODRICH25
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Joined: 17 Jun 2017
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 Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 6:00 am Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | dont_be_a_wuss wrote: | | What would the Jim Buss era have looked like WITH LeBron James? |
Kupchak would have been the perfect GM in that scenario. He knew how to pick up the right supporting pieces. |
In the years Kobe was in Lebron's current position (Old, but still able to play at an all-star/star level). Kupchak traded his best young asset for Dwight Howard who end up leaving a year later. Kupchak wasn't in tune with Howard's longterm interests, and that's part of making a partnership with players. He allowed Pau Gasol to leave without salvaging his asset value. He traded for way past prime Steve Nash, giving up a lot of assets. I've read you even say you were against the CP3 trade as it would not be a great fit for Kobe's last year. What did we use the Odom trade X on, I think it was half a season of Ramon Sessions, yes?
So Gasol/Odom/Bynum turn into 1 year of Howard, half a season of Ramon Sessions and maybe some other minor pieces I'm forgetting. Gasol just walked, I believe.
During his time with Phil as coach, there were some moves, in particular the Gasol trade was one of the best in Lakers history, so major props to Kupchak for that. He definitely helped orchestrate a title team in Kobe's prime.
I wouldn't use the word perfect.
Radmanovic MLE.
Luke Walton contract.
etc.
What made Kupchak good was his ability to negotiate trades. However he also was horrendous in free agency spending and wasn't exactly great at salvaging asset value either. We literally got nothing for Odom, or Gasol. Two key pieces to the Lakers championship core.
I mean, it's weird to me that it's being ignored how many small pick ups the Lakers have made in 19-20 that were vital. Alex Caruso 2.5M, Rondo vet min, Howard vet min. Key guys in that bubble run. Kieff, vet min. Avery Bradley at 4.5M in FA (though he missed the bubble). Danny Green in FA. There were some really solid pieces that helped make that bubble run happen. This was not Kupchak's strength. His strengths were to negotiate the bigger trades (Howard, Gasol etc) without giving up too much. In his time in LA, he was very good at that. No doubt. |
Didnt he also let Ariza, Farmar, Shannon Brown walk for nothing in those championship years? Yes we got Artest but he was on what, 6M a year? Ariza was on a comparable contract in Houston, i think it waa possible to keep both
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Ksig
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Joined: 03 Dec 2016
Posts: 2097
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 6:16 am Post subject: |
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Its a Rob and Jeanie problem. We have Jeanie who cheaps out. Its telling that Rob said to the media that we would spend "smartly" in the offseason. AKA we're not willing to spend a lot of money.
Rob is who is he is. A GM who has made many small to medium mistakes in managing our assets. Yet to be determined if he has made his first huge mistake in Russ; although hes lucky Schroder is an idiot otherwise that wouldve been a huge stain on his resume.
Its incredibly hard NOT to build a functional team around Lebron and AD. If we flame out this year, I'd want someone else running the ship. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 6:21 am Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | | GOODRICH25 wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | acer77 wrote: | | First of all, Wagner, Bonga and Jones (all scrubs) & #2 pick were traded to Washington, not New Orleans. |
Good heavens. It was a three-way trade.
More generally, who was the GM when Magic did all of these terrible things? You're invested in believing that all of the bad stuff was Magic and all of the good stuff was Pelinka. Well, I'm not going to try to talk you out of it. If there is one thing we've learned over the past few years in politics, religion, and infectious disease medicine, it is that you can't talk reason to a true believer.
But the rest of us realize that Pelinka was right in the middle of everything. |
Werent those guys sent to Washington to create the max slot for Kawhi? |
Not only that, the money was then used to sign the following role players.
Avery Bradley (Starter for half the season, key defensive piece to start off the new identity of D first)
Danny Green (3nD starter)
Javale McGee (Starter for RS and a few playoff games)
KCP (Starter for all the playoff games)
Without the cap, you can't sign all the above guys. |
This is yet another post that makes me wonder about you, Wolf. Do you actually think that sending three guys on minimum or near-minimum salaries to the Wizards cleared enough cap space and money to let us sign over $30M worth of players? Good heavens, man.
Goodrich is right that there could have been some effect on cap space, but it would have been only nominal. For cap purposes, you have to fill the empty roster slots with minimal salaries. Wagner was the only one of those guys who was making more than the rookie minimum. So the total about of cap savings wouldn't have been enough to sign any of the players you list, much less all of them.
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 6:36 am Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | | In the years Kobe was in Lebron's current position (Old, but still able to play at an all-star/star level). Kupchak traded his best young asset for Dwight Howard who end up leaving a year later. |
What? I'm starting to worry about you. Andrew Bynum had a good year with us, but he was breaking down. He played in only 26 more games in the NBA. Then he had to retire because his knees were gone. That was our best young asset? Maybe so, but it was only because we didn't have any good young assets. If we had kept Bynum for one more season, we would have gotten nothing for him. He wasn't even able to play that season.
Anyway, you're looking at the quick fix era. That was when Kobe was in decline and the Buss family was desperate to milk one more title out of him. We tried to make the Chris Paul trade, then we made the Nash and Howard trades. We also gave Kobe a big extension.
I'm talking about the team building era. I'm not even talking about the Gasol trade, which was one of a kind. I'm talking about the moves for guys like Ariza and Brown. Kupchak had the ability to construct a coherent roster. We didn't have big holes in our roster -- no shooters, no wing defenders, whatever. We weren't endlessly scrambling to cover for the deficiencies in the roster. That's the touch of a competent GM.
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JUST-MING
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Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 43990
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 7:10 am Post subject: |
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| AshesToAshes wrote: | | how does MozDeng fit into this? |
The free agents they signed with the cap space of Kobe's expiring contract. |
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JUST-MING
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Joined: 23 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 7:11 am Post subject: |
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| The legacy of Jim Buss is tanking for lottery draft picks. The franchise had only missed the playoffs three times until he took the reigns. |
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vasashi17+
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Joined: 13 Dec 2019
Posts: 5613
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 7:41 am Post subject: |
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| GOODRICH25 wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | acer77 wrote: | | First of all, Wagner, Bonga and Jones (all scrubs) & #2 pick were traded to Washington, not New Orleans. |
Good heavens. It was a three-way trade.
More generally, who was the GM when Magic did all of these terrible things? You're invested in believing that all of the bad stuff was Magic and all of the good stuff was Pelinka. Well, I'm not going to try to talk you out of it. If there is one thing we've learned over the past few years in politics, religion, and infectious disease medicine, it is that you can't talk reason to a true believer.
But the rest of us realize that Pelinka was right in the middle of everything. |
Werent those guys sent to Washington to create the max slot for Kawhi? |
Yes, but those pieces were looped into the AD trade for salary matching purposes.
Here’s a thought, the AD trade (or any variation of it) couldn’t be made official til after after the moratorium (ie July 6th). Why not make sure you get a commitment from Kawhi before clearing that cap space for him.
Otherwise AD’s deal largely gets absorbed into our cap space and we wouldn’t need to salary match with Mo, Bonga, JJ and wait for it…BI or Zo’s deal.
That’s right…..we would need Zo or BI’s deal as salary fodder to match fir AD if we had used our cap space to absorb him into. Right now it could have been Bron/AD or either Zo or BI here if Rob hadn’t prematurely shot his load off with the AD trade.
Oh and if Rob could have been a better negotiator, he has Griff wait 30 days to complete the AD trade so that #4 Hunter’s rookie salary can get aggregated with Hart…in which case both Zo & BI’s deal get spared from the trade so that AD largely gets absorbed into our cap space with only Hunter/Hart going out as salaried players among our future draft picks.
I know that Griff probably refuses to trade AD if Zo or BI are not part of the deal, but there was an opportunity for that to occur with a better exec negotiating the deal at the helm.
Sorry folks, Rob ain’t it.
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pjiddy
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Joined: 12 Dec 2005
Posts: 29077
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 7:58 am Post subject: |
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| JUST-MING wrote: | | The legacy of Jim Buss is tanking for lottery draft picks. The franchise had only missed the playoffs three times until he took the reigns. |
Lmao that tanking is the only reason we have Anthony Davis. Lebron might not have even come here if our roster was assetless and choked with vet contracts in a vain attempt to remain competitive in the post Kobe era. |
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wolfpaclaker
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Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 58344
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 10:05 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Do you actually think that sending three guys on minimum or near-minimum salaries to the Wizards cleared enough cap space and money to let us sign over $30M worth of players? Good heavens, man. |
Not sure where you got that idea from.
The poster explained it was for to have the maximum offer possible for Kawhi.
And I added even though the Kawhi pursuit failed the Lakers used the cap wisely. |
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 10:41 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
I'm talking about the team building era. I'm not even talking about the Gasol trade, which was one of a kind. I'm talking about the moves for guys like Ariza and Brown. Kupchak had the ability to construct a coherent roster. We didn't have big holes in our roster -- no shooters, no wing defenders, whatever. We weren't endlessly scrambling to cover for the deficiencies in the roster. That's the touch of a competent GM. |
You're looking at however you want to cherry pick.
For example, when Mitch had full control (With Jim influence, I guess) Kobe was in his athletic prime. There was a Shaq trade that no one really liked (although I thought it was solid by Mitch considering) and then after there were a lot of questionable moves in Kobe's athletic prime. Smush, Kwame for a budding all-star Caron Butler. MLE on Vlade. MLE on Aaron washed up McKie.
Lets just talk about what I think is valid though. Rob Pelinka never inherited Kobe Bryant or Lebron James in their primes at aged mid-20s. He inherited a roster full of talented lottery players and the horrendous contracts of Deng and Mozgov. From 2017 offseason (really when he took control with Magic) until 2019 within 2 years pursuing a position to win a title or be in position to win titles. Since none of the young guys showed that promise that Magic (and we all know how Magic talks and raves) felt about Ball. Ingram etc. the Lakers had to make a call. It's either go all in and win now, or go for a middle ground with Lebron and young players or scratch the Lebron thing all together (like some wanted in 2019, such as wanting to trade LBJ for Simmons).
If Rob or this FO had Lebron in his 20s, the way they would operate, and their patience for AD would be far different. They could actually wait and negotiate the way Mitch did in Kobe's prime. But here's the thing, Mitch also wasted a lot of Kobe's prime, something Lebron would never accept. Klutch, if you will, would never allow. So Mitch would either have to change his tactics to satisfy the superstar, or we would need to get a GM in who is willing to work with Klutch. And even Kobe, at one point, was so frustrated with Mitch/Jim, he wanted out. Again, Lebron isn't like Kobe. He ain't waiting around. If the AD trade doesn't happen soon, Lebron may not even commit to being a Laker. When this franchise committed to a 34 year old Bron in 2018 they had to have known what came with it, and also agreed to that. Which is why we see us giving up so many assets in trades for AD/Westbrook. Sure, I buy the argument Mitch wouldn't do such trades. Mitch also wouldn't be able to sign Lebron/work with Klutch. |
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venturalakersfan
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Joined: 14 Apr 2001
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Location: The Gold Coast
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 10:45 am Post subject: |
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That makes one appreciate Kobe so much over Lebron.
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