Somebody send Frank Vogel a playbook
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JamaalWilkes
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2021 2:27 pm    Post subject: Somebody send Frank Vogel a playbook

Maybe a primer on screens, pick and rolls, motion offenses, the inside-out game, back-screen posts, double curls, etc. then graduate on to triangle offense, Princeton offense, 7 cut with staggered double screens, flex warrior, X cross, etc.

Except when Rondo is running the offense or if Lebron is driving.
it seems Lakers generally waste the first 14 seconds of the play clock, then spread out for isolations before hoisting a contested shot.

It's a joy to watch good teams, college and pro, move the ball, cut and screen, and create offense. The majority of the Lakers' offense is watch and wait. All the dynamic potential of the players and team is sapped by this stand around isolation crap.

Plus, with big guys like AD all spread out on offensive perimeter, we are getting outrebounded by tiny teams, unless DH is in down low, like a big should be. You could not make it any easier on opposing defenses than to have a team stand in place at the three point line and wait.
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Outspoken
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2021 2:39 pm    Post subject:

I don't understand why in interviews, Frank keeps on saying we need to move the ball, when there is no offense. Moving the ball works more if there is an offensive scheme in place. To be honest, they need to have passing drills and layup drills; like Phil used to do. there is no reason why Westbrook has a problem making the easy pass. There is no reason why he misses so many layups. Not just him though, but he is the floor general. There is no reason why Dwight still brings the ball down, rather than keeping it high.. etc The Lakers need to go back to basics to start practice.
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hype
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2021 2:54 pm    Post subject:

Outspoken wrote:
I don't understand why in interviews, Frank keeps on saying we need to move the ball, when there is no offense. Moving the ball works more if there is an offensive scheme in place. To be honest, they need to have passing drills and layup drills; like Phil used to do. there is no reason why Westbrook has a problem making the easy pass. There is no reason why he misses so many layups. Not just him though, but he is the floor general. There is no reason why Dwight still brings the ball down, rather than keeping it high.. etc The Lakers need to go back to basics to start practice.


It honestly reminds of other offensive eccentric coaches preaching defense in interviews when there team is not even doing many of the most fundamental things on that end of the ball..

With Frank it's obviously flipped upside down and he gets guys to improve on the defensive end as the Season goes but on the offensive end it seems to be nothing more then lip service. It's pretty much "Bron, show us why you're great" offense. I get that to a point but we can still implement more of an offense around that especially when he is not even playing.

It's like the end of the Hornets game we have AD at the 3pt line dribbling out the clock only to shoot a fadeaway air ball 3 when we had all the time in the world to do anything.. Then with Melo blistering hot he touches the ball maybe 2-3 times down the stretch in the 4th and Overtime.. Him and AD should have been touching the ball every single possession to put pressure on the defense, that's about as basic and blatantly obvious as it gets.

We have plenty of issues early on but we def. don't help ourselves make anything easy along the way. It feels like nearly every single score that's not transition offense is a huge win lately.
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LakerDynasty6.0
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2021 2:55 pm    Post subject:

looks like somebody did send Frank a playbook: he just doesn't know HowTF to implement it without Lebron (and maybe Roy Hibbert
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2021 3:46 pm    Post subject:

I have a feeling one of the major reasons they got Westbrook was that they thought he would be able to run the same Lebron-ball offense that the team is used to - thus providing continuity throughout the game regardless of whether Lebron is on the floor or not: non-stop pressure the rim, run the break, leverage the shooters. The other players then would just keep on playing the same way they play with Lebron - yes there would be variations and new options, but the overall umbrella would be the same thus saving acclimation time, not to mention avoiding any buy-in issues with Lebron/AD.

Of course I see flaws in that strategy - Lebron is a master of tempo, Westbrook not so much; Lebron reads the game and adjusts his gear, Westbrook not so much; Lebron can be a decent shooter and can keep the defense honest, Westbrook not so much.
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PenG_
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2021 3:59 pm    Post subject:

Russ needs to run around the floor like Steph.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2021 4:15 pm    Post subject:

hype wrote:
Outspoken wrote:
I don't understand why in interviews, Frank keeps on saying we need to move the ball, when there is no offense. Moving the ball works more if there is an offensive scheme in place. To be honest, they need to have passing drills and layup drills; like Phil used to do. there is no reason why Westbrook has a problem making the easy pass. There is no reason why he misses so many layups. Not just him though, but he is the floor general. There is no reason why Dwight still brings the ball down, rather than keeping it high.. etc The Lakers need to go back to basics to start practice.


It honestly reminds of other offensive eccentric coaches preaching defense in interviews when there team is not even doing many of the most fundamental things on that end of the ball..

With Frank it's obviously flipped upside down and he gets guys to improve on the defensive end as the Season goes but on the offensive end it seems to be nothing more then lip service. It's pretty much "Bron, show us why you're great" offense. I get that to a point but we can still implement more of an offense around that especially when he is not even playing.

It's like the end of the Hornets game we have AD at the 3pt line dribbling out the clock only to shoot a fadeaway air ball 3 when we had all the time in the world to do anything.. Then with Melo blistering hot he touches the ball maybe 2-3 times down the stretch in the 4th and Overtime.. Him and AD should have been touching the ball every single possession to put pressure on the defense, that's about as basic and blatantly obvious as it gets.

We have plenty of issues early on but we def. don't help ourselves make anything easy along the way. It feels like nearly every single score that's not transition offense is a huge win lately.


Like D'antoni talking about defense, knowing good and well he doesn't necessarily coach that side that much. Vogel is the opposite D'antoni. Vogel and D'Antoni may be a match in heaven.

It pains me whenever I see Davis floating around the perimeter or acting like he is a point guard. Or whenever one of the stars have the ball, there is no movement. It's like when Westbrook says in interviews, after we lose "the other team played faster" as if he plays faster, we win. We lack the true understanding of a structured and fundamentals of an actual offense. We don't know the technical aspect of it, or what it actually takes to win. We get lucky and we try our luck on the next team, rather than understanding how we actually beat the team.
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PlantedTanks
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2021 4:27 pm    Post subject:

He needs a playbook on how to incorporate 12 new players with 4-6 of them either injured before the season began or flip flopping from being game to game.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 6:12 am    Post subject:

What kind of offense are we running = NONE! That’s what kind.
If we’re not fast breaking we’re going one on one with the stars

Twice now we went for the win with 20 seconds left & Monk & Russ just got the ball & dribbled down the clock at three point line with no screens, no PnR, no passing, no drives, just a contested three pointer!

What kinda of play is that, who’s drawing up these key moments??? Down right pathetic!
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 6:45 am    Post subject:

No doubt the offense needs work. #1 in pace, but #21 in efficiency. That's not good enough.

Stuff I like:

When we run those AD/Melo 5/4 up high sets with a ballhandling guard looking for a screen.

Melo post ups.

Any screen/roll that involves AD at the 5.


Stuff I don't like:

AD isolations in areas he's not strong at.
Russell shooting pull ups after handling the ball for a long time.
Not getting into an offense with motion, until well into the clock.
Pushing pace, when there isn't a seemingly advantage of doing so.

Wonder if Bron will help the O ratings and overall situation.On paper, he should take at least 50% of the playmaking responsibilities out of Westbrook's hands Allowing Westbrook to focus more on drive and kick & drive and score in the paint vs being a PG which Westbrook currently has to be.
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Drifts
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 7:00 am    Post subject:

nothing wrong with the playbook... the players not being able to execute is the problem.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 7:41 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
No doubt the offense needs work. #1 in pace, but #21 in efficiency. That's not good enough.

Stuff I like:

When we run those AD/Melo 5/4 up high sets with a ballhandling guard looking for a screen.

Melo post ups.

Any screen/roll that involves AD at the 5.


Stuff I don't like:

AD isolations in areas he's not strong at.
Russell shooting pull ups after handling the ball for a long time.
Not getting into an offense with motion, until well into the clock.
Pushing pace, when there isn't a seemingly advantage of doing so.

Wonder if Bron will help the O ratings and overall situation.On paper, he should take at least 50% of the playmaking responsibilities out of Westbrook's hands Allowing Westbrook to focus more on drive and kick & drive and score in the paint vs being a PG which Westbrook currently has to be.

Brons great but he has become a bit of a ball pounder. Passing to get it back or taking a contested 3. He’s hitting but it does cause a lot of standing around.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 8:28 am    Post subject:

Not enough motion, players usually stop and wait for the ball

Maddening to see sometimes
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 8:36 am    Post subject:

Trying to find it but there is a shot close to final where everyone standing up on the lakers bench other than coach was in street clothes
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levon
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 10:51 am    Post subject:

that Westbrook 3 to end regulation was entirely an indictment of the coaching staff
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 12:28 pm    Post subject:

levon wrote:
that Westbrook 3 to end regulation was entirely an indictment of the coaching staff


It'd be interesting to find out if that was what the coaching staff drew up, or whether that was a (macho) improvisation by Westbrook.
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danzag
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 12:51 pm    Post subject:

levon wrote:
that Westbrook 3 to end regulation was entirely an indictment of the coaching staff


That was Westbrook playing hero ball
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JamaalWilkes
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 2:38 pm    Post subject:

Drifts wrote:
nothing wrong with the playbook... the players not being able to execute is the problem.


Is that a joke? Junior High kids can execute plays in a week of practice. These are pro's who already know how to run most offenses, if they are asked to.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 6:23 pm    Post subject:

The ball moved better yesterday.. i like what i saw
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 6:45 pm    Post subject:

JamaalWilkes wrote:
Drifts wrote:
nothing wrong with the playbook... the players not being able to execute is the problem.


Is that a joke? Junior High kids can execute plays in a week of practice. These are pro's who already know how to run most offenses, if they are asked to.


as you said, these guys are pros. them not being able to execute is head scratching. playbooks fine.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 6:52 pm    Post subject:

danzag wrote:
levon wrote:
that Westbrook 3 to end regulation was entirely an indictment of the coaching staff


That was Westbrook playing hero ball



The coach has to speak to russell and tell him why that shot is not acceptable. You are a 30% 3 pt shooter, we need that shot to come from a better shooter or drive to the paint. it's simple.But i doubt vogel would have that conversation w russ.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 6:24 am    Post subject:

Drifts wrote:
JamaalWilkes wrote:
Drifts wrote:
nothing wrong with the playbook... the players not being able to execute is the problem.


Is that a joke? Junior High kids can execute plays in a week of practice. These are pro's who already know how to run most offenses, if they are asked to.


as you said, these guys are pros. them not being able to execute is head scratching. playbooks fine.



The point you're missing...willfully, or out of genuine ignorance...is that 99% of the Lakers offensive "playbook" is LeBron/AD iso. There is no real player movement, other than initial headless chicken motion, the ball jumping around the perimeter, to end up in an iso situation. Stagnant. Been that way since the championship year. Vogel coaches defense. LeBron "coaches" offense. It is what it is.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 6:46 am    Post subject:

The problem is exactly in vogel trying to run a playbook.

This is basketball and what generates good shots is ball movement and body movement. The more the better. Unless you have a prime CP3 or LeBron then you need a system where the ball constantly move and players know they have a chance to shoot the ball every trip down the court. This translate into players being more engaged on both sides of the floor.

Last game I saw this team "cross the bridge". I think Vogel broke through on this and allowed the team to play free while enphasizing ball movement.

I think if we keep playing this way we will go on a 10 game winning streak.


There is no way a Russ & Ad team shouldn't be wrecking the league. They can be a lethal combination but you have to have ball and body movement so they can do their thing.

I am very excited after what I saw last game.

A lot of it has to do with Monks and Ellington's motion off the ball which is nice.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 6:51 am    Post subject:



Here’s a good breakdown of the horns set they executed during the game against Miami. I think vogel’s got something here to build upon.
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818fan
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 8:53 am    Post subject:

I think this is the nature of having a bunch of high-profile vets on your team. Getting vets like this to constantly run plays out of a book rather than "feel" is hard.
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