Players have shown they can impact a team to win and carry their team to the playoffs. AD has not consistently shown he can. He hasn't even consistently shown he could win games without Lebron on the Lakers. AD as a #1 on a team, are lottery teams, when he is the main guy. Can't say the same for Curry, Durant, Harden, Lillard, Embiid, Jokic, Lebron, CP3, Giannis.... Even Westbrook has carried a not so talented team to the playoffs. Those are foundational stars.. AD doesn't appear to make that list.
The problem with this argument is that you attribute the team's success entirely to the #1 guy -- so having Kevin Durant, Klay Thompson, and Draymond Green as teammates is exactly the same as having Eric Gordon, Ryan Anderson, and Greivis Vásquez as teammates.
I mean are guys like Embiid and Lillard really more "foundational players" than AD. I'm not sure you can make a strong case for that without defining "foundational player" in such a way that they automatically win.
Beyond that, when people talk about "foundational players" they aren't asking if a player is capable of leading a team that goes 0-4 in the first round of the playoffs.
They are asking if you can reasonable assemble a team around that player that has a chance of being a genuine contender.
I'm talking about a star impacting a team enough to make it to the playoffs, as the #1 option. Steph doesn't have Klay or Durant and the team is being successful with Steph as the #1 option. Embiid was 8-2 as #1 option this season, without Ben Simmons and sixers are on a 5 game losing streak with him being out. A foundational player can get a team to the playoffs as the #1 option.
I don't think that's a meaningful, interesting or useful way of looking at "foundational players" myself, but to each their own.
I don't think a "foundational star" is consistently leading teams to the lottery, but you're right, to each's own.
Players have shown they can impact a team to win and carry their team to the playoffs. AD has not consistently shown he can. He hasn't even consistently shown he could win games without Lebron on the Lakers. AD as a #1 on a team, are lottery teams, when he is the main guy. Can't say the same for Curry, Durant, Harden, Lillard, Embiid, Jokic, Lebron, CP3, Giannis.... Even Westbrook has carried a not so talented team to the playoffs. Those are foundational stars.. AD doesn't appear to make that list.
The problem with this argument is that you attribute the team's success entirely to the #1 guy -- so having Kevin Durant, Klay Thompson, and Draymond Green as teammates is exactly the same as having Eric Gordon, Ryan Anderson, and Greivis Vásquez as teammates.
I mean are guys like Embiid and Lillard really more "foundational players" than AD. I'm not sure you can make a strong case for that without defining "foundational player" in such a way that they automatically win.
Beyond that, when people talk about "foundational players" they aren't asking if a player is capable of leading a team that goes 0-4 in the first round of the playoffs.
They are asking if you can reasonable assemble a team around that player that has a chance of being a genuine contender.
I'm talking about a star impacting a team enough to make it to the playoffs, as the #1 option. Steph doesn't have Klay or Durant and the team is being successful with Steph as the #1 option. Embiid was 8-2 as #1 option this season, without Ben Simmons and sixers are on a 5 game losing streak with him being out. A foundational player can get a team to the playoffs as the #1 option.
I don't think that's a meaningful, interesting or useful way of looking at "foundational players" myself, but to each their own.
I don't think a "foundational star" is consistently leading teams to the lottery, but you're right, to each's own.
No offense, but to me you are just trying to take the conversation to really uninteresting places, so I will bid you adieu.
Giannis showed the difference between a foundational star and just a star. Giannis completely demolished AD in the 1st half. Made AD look like a solid role player. Giannis continued to beast the Lakers, throughout the game.
Last edited by Outspoken on Wed Nov 17, 2021 6:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 24 Dec 2007 Posts: 35813 Location: Santa Clarita, CA (Hell) ->>>>>Ithaca, NY -≥≥≥≥≥Berkeley, CA
Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2021 7:01 pm Post subject:
It’s so weird to me that Anthony Davis was once considered superior to Giannis. Not even remotely comparable impact wise _________________ Damian Lillard shatters Dwight Coward's championship dreams:
Joined: 24 Dec 2007 Posts: 35813 Location: Santa Clarita, CA (Hell) ->>>>>Ithaca, NY -≥≥≥≥≥Berkeley, CA
Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2021 8:27 pm Post subject:
Kobetan wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
It’s so weird to me that Anthony Davis was once considered superior to Giannis. Not even remotely comparable impact wise
I honestly can't remember, was this during Giannis' rookie season?
As recently as the bubble season, people here we’re putting AD ABOVE Giannis. Maybe this board is just biased. _________________ Damian Lillard shatters Dwight Coward's championship dreams:
It’s so weird to me that Anthony Davis was once considered superior to Giannis. Not even remotely comparable impact wise
I honestly can't remember, was this during Giannis' rookie season?
As recently as the bubble season, people here we’re putting AD ABOVE Giannis. Maybe this board is just biased.
Two seasons ago AD was better than Giannis. Giannis just came off 2 consecutive disappointing playoff performances while his inability to shoot got exposed big time during playoffs. AD was leading us to the bubble title.
AD is playing way way below his potential... it's very disappointing.
He's playing like he's got no drive, unmotivated, even at times, he looks lazy ... reminds me of Odom to some degree. _________________ "Now, if life is coffee, then the jobs, money & position in society are the cups. They are just tools to hold & contain life, but the quality of life doesn't change. Sometimes, by concentrating only on the cup, we fail to enjoy the coffee in it."
There's a reason Giannis has more nba awards despite the 2 being comparable in talent.
AD is way way way more talented than Giannis.
Giannis just worked his ass off, and surpassed AD by miles.
Imagine if AD had Giannis' work ethic and drive, he'd be the best in the NBA today, bar none, just like many pundits have expected him to become. _________________ "Now, if life is coffee, then the jobs, money & position in society are the cups. They are just tools to hold & contain life, but the quality of life doesn't change. Sometimes, by concentrating only on the cup, we fail to enjoy the coffee in it."
There's a reason Giannis has more nba awards despite the 2 being comparable in talent.
AD is way way way more talented than Giannis.
Giannis just worked his ass off, and surpassed AD by miles.
Imagine if AD had Giannis' work ethic and drive, he'd be the best in the NBA today, bar none, just like many pundits have expected him to become.
I’d take someone with slight lesser talent but willing to putting works over a more talented guy who never improved his game, just relying on the same talent got him to the league. Has AD added anything to his game since he came to nba? I can’t think of one.
There's a reason Giannis has more nba awards despite the 2 being comparable in talent.
AD is way way way more talented than Giannis.
Giannis just worked his ass off, and surpassed AD by miles.
Imagine if AD had Giannis' work ethic and drive, he'd be the best in the NBA today, bar none, just like many pundits have expected him to become.
Exactly like T-Mac, even down to the injury concerns.
Kobe said T-Mac was more talented than himself. However, T-Mac lacked Kobe's drive and we all know how that played out.
AD (T-Mac) and Giannis (Kobe) look to be mirroring them at this point in their careers. Just be glad AD realized he needed a "batman" enough to where the lakers were able to win the bubble chip.
For all of AD's talent, I'm surprised he still hasn't won the DPOY award. Even Dwight being immature in Orlando was able to accomplish such a feat.
It’s a perimeter stars’ league, in order to be a dominant big man in todays nba, skillset aside you have to play with an attitude. Jokic and Embiid do exactly that, those two are mean mofos not easy to push around. AD’s weak base and physique can be linked to his laziness in off seasons. Seems like the guy is very content of being what he is right now, and that’s bad news for Laker fans.
Joined: 24 Dec 2007 Posts: 35813 Location: Santa Clarita, CA (Hell) ->>>>>Ithaca, NY -≥≥≥≥≥Berkeley, CA
Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2021 9:55 pm Post subject:
dabask11 wrote:
Drifts wrote:
dabask11 wrote:
AD is T-Mac
Giannis is Kobe
There's a reason Giannis has more nba awards despite the 2 being comparable in talent.
AD is way way way more talented than Giannis.
Giannis just worked his ass off, and surpassed AD by miles.
Imagine if AD had Giannis' work ethic and drive, he'd be the best in the NBA today, bar none, just like many pundits have expected him to become.
Exactly like T-Mac, even down to the injury concerns.
Kobe said T-Mac was more talented than himself. However, T-Mac lacked Kobe's drive and we all know how that played out.
AD (T-Mac) and Giannis (Kobe) look to be mirroring them at this point in their careers. Just be glad AD realized he needed a "batman" enough to where the lakers were able to win the bubble chip.
For all of AD's talent, I'm surprised he still hasn't won the DPOY award. Even Dwight being immature in Orlando was able to accomplish such a feat.
T-Mac led the league in scoring two consecutive seasons. Show some respect.
AD is Boris Diaw. _________________ Damian Lillard shatters Dwight Coward's championship dreams:
There's a reason Giannis has more nba awards despite the 2 being comparable in talent.
AD is way way way more talented than Giannis.
Giannis just worked his ass off, and surpassed AD by miles.
Imagine if AD had Giannis' work ethic and drive, he'd be the best in the NBA today, bar none, just like many pundits have expected him to become.
Exactly like T-Mac, even down to the injury concerns.
Kobe said T-Mac was more talented than himself. However, T-Mac lacked Kobe's drive and we all know how that played out.
AD (T-Mac) and Giannis (Kobe) look to be mirroring them at this point in their careers. Just be glad AD realized he needed a "batman" enough to where the lakers were able to win the bubble chip.
For all of AD's talent, I'm surprised he still hasn't won the DPOY award. Even Dwight being immature in Orlando was able to accomplish such a feat.
T-Mac led the league in scoring two consecutive seasons. Show some respect.
AD is Boris Diaw.
Lol Post-championship AD hasn't been as advertised but he's not at those levels just yet.
Let him become fat first before we mention AD in the same breath as Boris Diaw.
AD is versatile offensively but I can't say he is "foundational star" level in any of the areas he's talented in. He isn't a ball dominate guy you put at the top of the key and tell him to go get it more times than not during a game. He isn't the strongest guy to have him in the post and backing down defenders on a nightly basis. What he seems to like to do most is be in a triple threat position at mid-range area and shoot. In that area he isn't a good enough jump shooter to have those possessions mean as much as they should.
He's a very smooth and skilled player who will get his in a variety of ways but it's more often than not, very quiet. Then you look at the boxscore and see he has 20 and 10.
Bubble AD is likely to never happen again. His shooting splits were phenomenal and that AD was foundational star. What I do like is his numbers beyond last years playoffs, always seemed to improve come playoff time. I know the sample size isn't that big outside of the Lakers but playing well during the playoffs more times than not is good.
I've always looked at him more as an amazing second option whose defense makes him that much more meaningful to a team. He isn't a floor raiser but everything he has raises the ceiling if combined with a legit superstar.
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