Vogel will pay the price for Pelinka's lack of vision
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JustaObserver
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 9:08 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
cathy78 wrote:
troy wrote:
Ksig wrote:
Laker4lifer4real wrote:
If Vogel wants to save his job, he mans up and puts Russ with the second unit as a 6th man. Tells the press Russ needs to do what’s best for the team to win. He just said if you don’t play defense you won’t get minutes, so he has an excuse for Russ to sit.


Honestly Im down for this. It will probably result in Russ lashing out and maybe requesting a trade. But at this point if we just sit him and roll with Lebron/AD and role players we have a better chance.


All the more reason for Vogel to do this.

I hope he has the balls and the support to do this. His job is coaching the best he can with what he is given, so he should.


I understand the frustration after the embarrassment of losing to the Celtics on national television. But let's keep some perspective. The only way that we are going to manage to contend for a title this year is to find a way to make this work. We aren't going to make it work by pretending that Lebron and Davis are the same players that they were two seasons ago in the bubble. We aren't going to make it work by pretending that guys like Carmelo, Monk, and Ellington are defenders. We aren't going to make it work by scapegoating Westbrook for all of the ills of the team.

So you want to go with Lebron, Davis, and the role players? That's a brilliant idea. Those role players have been burning it up this year. Sure thing. It's just that Westbrook has been holding them back. Obviously. If we boot Westbrook to the bench, guys like Bazemore and Monk could finally live up to their potential. How could anyone not realize this?

Seriously, I was on record as vehemently opposed to the Westbrook trade before it even happened. I said that, if the trade happened, it would be funny to see everyone turn on Westbrook after they got a good look at what he really was. I was wrong. It isn't funny. But these are the cards we have been dealt by Pelinka and Team Lebron. We aren't going to make it work by banishing Westbrook to the bench. Heck, he's only part of the problem with this weak excuse for roster construction. The rest of the problems -- age, lack of defense, lack of size on the wing, lack of chemistry -- will not be fixed by scapegoating Westbrook.

It feels weird to be kinda sorta defending Westbrook. My low opinion of him is unchanged. However, we need to play this hand. We aren't going to fix the stupid snap decision by Pelinka and Team Lebron by making another stupid snap decision.



This whole thread is crazy...smh. Blame Vogel blame rob...why don’t we blame the bozos who really deserve the blame and the people of clutch and LeGM? Rob had buddy Hield and derozin line up but noooooo let get LeGM good buddy. Or blame Jeanie who seems to let clutch do what they want? Put the blame where it really goes
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 9:42 am    Post subject:

Outspoken wrote:
This may be a fact, except,

Quote:
then he convinced Jeanie Buss to stay out of basketball decisions.


Jeanie Buss has said that she knows nothing about the basketball side of things. She said that she would stay out of that part and let the experts do their job. I don't know what experts she was referring to, but none the less, she makes it a point not to get involved with the basketball side.


Who do you think brought in Pelinka and the Rambis’? And do you believe that they are involved with the basketball side? This is the post Dr. Buss Lakers, operating like it is 2000.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 9:45 am    Post subject:

Laker4lifer4real wrote:
If Vogel wants to save his job, he mans up and puts Russ with the second unit as a 6th man. Tells the press Russ needs to do what’s best for the team to win. He just said if you don’t play defense you won’t get minutes, so he has an excuse for Russ to sit.


Then he needs to sit Melo, he definitely doesn’t play defense.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 10:07 am    Post subject:

I wouldn't fire Vogel.

Fizdale an updgrade? Be serious.

The team as constructed is a mix of mismatched pieces. Coaching can only do so much if the guys can't/won't put out the effort on the defensive end.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 10:16 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
cathy78 wrote:
troy wrote:
Ksig wrote:
Laker4lifer4real wrote:
If Vogel wants to save his job, he mans up and puts Russ with the second unit as a 6th man. Tells the press Russ needs to do what’s best for the team to win. He just said if you don’t play defense you won’t get minutes, so he has an excuse for Russ to sit.


Honestly Im down for this. It will probably result in Russ lashing out and maybe requesting a trade. But at this point if we just sit him and roll with Lebron/AD and role players we have a better chance.


All the more reason for Vogel to do this.

I hope he has the balls and the support to do this. His job is coaching the best he can with what he is given, so he should.


I understand the frustration after the embarrassment of losing to the Celtics on national television. But let's keep some perspective. The only way that we are going to manage to contend for a title this year is to find a way to make this work. We aren't going to make it work by pretending that Lebron and Davis are the same players that they were two seasons ago in the bubble. We aren't going to make it work by pretending that guys like Carmelo, Monk, and Ellington are defenders. We aren't going to make it work by scapegoating Westbrook for all of the ills of the team.

So you want to go with Lebron, Davis, and the role players? That's a brilliant idea. Those role players have been burning it up this year. Sure thing. It's just that Westbrook has been holding them back. Obviously. If we boot Westbrook to the bench, guys like Bazemore and Monk could finally live up to their potential. How could anyone not realize this?

Seriously, I was on record as vehemently opposed to the Westbrook trade before it even happened. I said that, if the trade happened, it would be funny to see everyone turn on Westbrook after they got a good look at what he really was. I was wrong. It isn't funny. But these are the cards we have been dealt by Pelinka and Team Lebron. We aren't going to make it work by banishing Westbrook to the bench. Heck, he's only part of the problem with this weak excuse for roster construction. The rest of the problems -- age, lack of defense, lack of size on the wing, lack of chemistry -- will not be fixed by scapegoating Westbrook.

It feels weird to be kinda sorta defending Westbrook. My low opinion of him is unchanged. However, we need to play this hand. We aren't going to fix the stupid snap decision by Pelinka and Team Lebron by making another stupid snap decision.


For sure there are more unsolvable problems on this roster than just Westbrook. But he is the biggest one, the next is adding players with a pulse on defense to the team.

The more solvable one right now is Russ. Benching him solves the problem with overlapping skillsets in Lebron and Russ and gives each of them time with the ball without tanking the effectiveness of Lebron ball. To do the same thing which is to try to force a square peg into a round hole is insanity. We know who Russ is; hes 13 years going, playing the same kind of basketball style he always has.

Its like we know the absolute cluster (bleep) of an ending to Game of Thrones and we're sitting here watching the 8 seasons leading up to it hoping it will be different on a rerun. We all know how its going to end, so why not try something different and play to the strengths of Lebron/AD which could buy us enough time to trade for something at the deadline/pickup somebody on the buyout market.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 11:30 am    Post subject:

M2K wrote:
The problem with the Lakers is defense and Westbrook.

Its not complicated.

When you throw away KCP and Caruso... you better replace them with similar or better defensive players. Rob Pelinka did just the opposite.

If anyone should be fired, its Rob.

Caruso is thriving defensively in Chicago and a key player on their team. To think we could have kept someone that brought exactly what we lack now... falls on the GM.

Rob Pelinka went for the flash (Westbrook) instead of giving value to cohesiveness, chemistry, defense, etc. He did the same last year letting Dwight Howard walk to sign Montrezl Harrell.

Pelinka's team building philosophy is terrible... while his skills at getting players to sign is strong.

Lakers better not wait for the trade deadline to start making trades. They need to find a way to acquire Ben Simmons now.. even if that means giving up any player not named LeBron and Davis.

You're missing two even bigger problems with this year's roster when it comes to defense: the lack of more 3s and 4s to make up what we lost in Kuzma and M. Morris.

Now, one can argue that Ariza was brought in to address that, but he is still only one player that is now hurt in the leg while being old. If he were healthy and defensively solid like he was last year, we'd be better off, but the thinness of the roster at the SF/PF spot was known early, and Rob did nothing but add more guards to the glut we already have.

Defense and rebounding have suffered GREATLY because of his fascination with making the Lakers a tribe of Hobbits.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 11:40 am    Post subject:

Pelinka better be careful before he checkmates himself. Making a panic coaching move would be beyond dumb right now.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:02 pm    Post subject:

Ksig wrote:
For sure there are more unsolvable problems on this roster than just Westbrook. But he is the biggest one, the next is adding players with a pulse on defense to the team.

The more solvable one right now is Russ. Benching him solves the problem with overlapping skillsets in Lebron and Russ and gives each of them time with the ball without tanking the effectiveness of Lebron ball. To do the same thing which is to try to force a square peg into a round hole is insanity. We know who Russ is; hes 13 years going, playing the same kind of basketball style he always has.


There are a number of problems with this. The most fundamental is that we need to accept that Lebron isn't playing the way he did in his prime. Lebron just isn't attacking the rim and has become more of a three point shooter. This may not be a function of the recent injuries, either. In the first three games of the season, he took 11, 9, and 9 threes. For his career, the percentage of his shots that were threes has been .225. It's .406 so far this year. It's been going up ever since he got here. His career percentage of shots within three feet is .358. This season, it's .283 so far. It's been going down ever since he got here.

I suppose someone could come up with a theory for why this is due to Westbrook, but as I said, these trends pre-date Westbrook. Actually, they go back to his title winning season in Cleveland in '16. That year, his percentage of his shots at the rim was .459 and his percentage of threes was .199. Here's another stat: In 2016, the average length of one of his shots was 9.6 feet. This year, it is 15.1 feet.

The reason why this is so important in the context of this discussion is that some of you think that if we just got Westbrook out of the way, Lebron and Davis would go back to playing like they did in the bubble. But setting aside all of the criticisms of Davis, Lebron's just not the same player. He's still a great player, but he is not the force of nature that he used to be. This could change, of course, but the trends since 2016 say that it probably won't.

So suppose that we had a starting lineup of Jordan/Howard, Davis, Lebron, THT, and Bradley. Or you could make it Davis, Carmelo, Lebron, THT, and Rondo. Or mix and match it however you want. We might make the playoffs if everyone stayed healthy, but it's not a title contender if Lebron is an outside shooter. It wouldn't be a good defensive lineup, and it would be just an average offensive lineup.

If we're going to contend, we need to find a way to integrate Westbrook. That may not be possible, but it's the only way to contend for a title. We aren't going to figure it out by putting Westbrook on the bench.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 2:59 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Ksig wrote:
For sure there are more unsolvable problems on this roster than just Westbrook. But he is the biggest one, the next is adding players with a pulse on defense to the team.

The more solvable one right now is Russ. Benching him solves the problem with overlapping skillsets in Lebron and Russ and gives each of them time with the ball without tanking the effectiveness of Lebron ball. To do the same thing which is to try to force a square peg into a round hole is insanity. We know who Russ is; hes 13 years going, playing the same kind of basketball style he always has.


There are a number of problems with this. The most fundamental is that we need to accept that Lebron isn't playing the way he did in his prime. Lebron just isn't attacking the rim and has become more of a three point shooter. This may not be a function of the recent injuries, either. In the first three games of the season, he took 11, 9, and 9 threes. For his career, the percentage of his shots that were threes has been .225. It's .406 so far this year. It's been going up ever since he got here. His career percentage of shots within three feet is .358. This season, it's .283 so far. It's been going down ever since he got here.

I suppose someone could come up with a theory for why this is due to Westbrook, but as I said, these trends pre-date Westbrook. Actually, they go back to his title winning season in Cleveland in '16. That year, his percentage of his shots at the rim was .459 and his percentage of threes was .199. Here's another stat: In 2016, the average length of one of his shots was 9.6 feet. This year, it is 15.1 feet.

The reason why this is so important in the context of this discussion is that some of you think that if we just got Westbrook out of the way, Lebron and Davis would go back to playing like they did in the bubble. But setting aside all of the criticisms of Davis, Lebron's just not the same player. He's still a great player, but he is not the force of nature that he used to be. This could change, of course, but the trends since 2016 say that it probably won't.

So suppose that we had a starting lineup of Jordan/Howard, Davis, Lebron, THT, and Bradley. Or you could make it Davis, Carmelo, Lebron, THT, and Rondo. Or mix and match it however you want. We might make the playoffs if everyone stayed healthy, but it's not a title contender if Lebron is an outside shooter. It wouldn't be a good defensive lineup, and it would be just an average offensive lineup.

If we're going to contend, we need to find a way to integrate Westbrook. That may not be possible, but it's the only way to contend for a title. We aren't going to figure it out by putting Westbrook on the bench.


Basically you think theres a small chance Russ helps us to win a chip; thats fair but I dont even think theres a small chance. To me this team as currently constructed is going nowhere thats with WB starting or WB on the bench. But at least it would make the games more watchable, we'd give the Pelicans a worse pick, and maybe we can stay afloat and hope for a miracle at the trade deadline.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 3:36 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Ksig wrote:
For sure there are more unsolvable problems on this roster than just Westbrook. But he is the biggest one, the next is adding players with a pulse on defense to the team.

The more solvable one right now is Russ. Benching him solves the problem with overlapping skillsets in Lebron and Russ and gives each of them time with the ball without tanking the effectiveness of Lebron ball. To do the same thing which is to try to force a square peg into a round hole is insanity. We know who Russ is; hes 13 years going, playing the same kind of basketball style he always has.


There are a number of problems with this. The most fundamental is that we need to accept that Lebron isn't playing the way he did in his prime. Lebron just isn't attacking the rim and has become more of a three point shooter. This may not be a function of the recent injuries, either. In the first three games of the season, he took 11, 9, and 9 threes. For his career, the percentage of his shots that were threes has been .225. It's .406 so far this year. It's been going up ever since he got here. His career percentage of shots within three feet is .358. This season, it's .283 so far. It's been going down ever since he got here.

I suppose someone could come up with a theory for why this is due to Westbrook, but as I said, these trends pre-date Westbrook. Actually, they go back to his title winning season in Cleveland in '16. That year, his percentage of his shots at the rim was .459 and his percentage of threes was .199. Here's another stat: In 2016, the average length of one of his shots was 9.6 feet. This year, it is 15.1 feet.

The reason why this is so important in the context of this discussion is that some of you think that if we just got Westbrook out of the way, Lebron and Davis would go back to playing like they did in the bubble. But setting aside all of the criticisms of Davis, Lebron's just not the same player. He's still a great player, but he is not the force of nature that he used to be. This could change, of course, but the trends since 2016 say that it probably won't.

So suppose that we had a starting lineup of Jordan/Howard, Davis, Lebron, THT, and Bradley. Or you could make it Davis, Carmelo, Lebron, THT, and Rondo. Or mix and match it however you want. We might make the playoffs if everyone stayed healthy, but it's not a title contender if Lebron is an outside shooter. It wouldn't be a good defensive lineup, and it would be just an average offensive lineup.

If we're going to contend, we need to find a way to integrate Westbrook. That may not be possible, but it's the only way to contend for a title. We aren't going to figure it out by putting Westbrook on the bench.


Totally agree. I don’t think a team strictly of 3&D wings & Lebron & AD will cut it any longer. We benefitted from that long layoff which allowed Lebron & AD to sprint during playoffs.

Supporting cast aside, both look worse to me. Metrics seem to support that notion as well. I agree we do need WB’s driving ability but it’s all for moot if we don’t have an offensive system that has clear expectations. Too many guys standing around and it just seems like our offense looks great in 1Q when we run sets but when teams adjust we seem to devolve into isolation basketball where we’re 28th in the league in efficiency.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 5:00 pm    Post subject:

DancingBarry wrote:
Pelinka better be careful before he checkmates himself. Making a panic coaching move would be beyond dumb right now.


Agreed. If the team still ends up a Play-in team under Fizdale (all too likely), he'll have no one left to fire.

On the positive side, he might be able to save his job by hiring a real GM, while he remains "President of Basketball Operations."
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 8:55 pm    Post subject:

DancingBarry wrote:
Pelinka better be careful before he checkmates himself. Making a panic coaching move would be beyond dumb right now.


I agree with DB here. Even though some of Vogel's rotations lately are just making me scratch my head wondering about the importance of some of this summer's departed coaches. Despite that, he's one of the few NBA coaches who has won a title, and he has had made some good adjustments in the past.

As of right now though he doesn't seem to have a good understanding of how to integrate Westbrook in a way that will work with the current roster. He hasn't shown the ability to keep his team motivated at half time. He's going to be on the hot seat. But what are the options? If he fires him mid-season you hand over the keys to Fizdale? He's been fired from both his head coaching jobs after two seasons with a career 34.6% win percentage. I have a hard time believing he'd be a better option than Vogel.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 9:56 pm    Post subject:

DancingBarry wrote:
Pelinka better be careful before he checkmates himself. Making a panic coaching move would be beyond dumb right now.


I agree, he could paint himself into a corner. If a decision needs to be made, let Jeanie make it.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 6:01 am    Post subject:

J.C. Smith wrote:

<snip>
As of right now though he doesn't seem to have a good understanding of how to integrate Westbrook in a way that will work with the current roster.


Very true. However Vogel's bread-and-butter is defense and while most posters focus on offense (or lack thereof), the far more critical question is how to get the team back to playing league-leading defense with the current roster (particularly Westbrook, but by no means Westbrook alone, also Monk, Melo, Ellington, DJ)
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 7:50 am    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
Outspoken wrote:
This may be a fact, except,

Quote:
then he convinced Jeanie Buss to stay out of basketball decisions.


Jeanie Buss has said that she knows nothing about the basketball side of things. She said that she would stay out of that part and let the experts do their job. I don't know what experts she was referring to, but none the less, she makes it a point not to get involved with the basketball side.


Who do you think brought in Pelinka and the Rambis’? And do you believe that they are involved with the basketball side? This is the post Dr. Buss Lakers, operating like it is 2000.


Jeanie Buss.

Jeanie brought in Pelinka based on Kobe recommendation. She asked Kobe to join. He didn't want to, but he then recommended Rob. Kurt was added because he is good friends with Phil. His wife and her has a relationship based on her relationship with Phil. She hired Magic because he is like a brother to her. That's why I say they run the Lakers like a mom and pop shop. It's not about how much they know, it's about who they know. I mean Jeanie dismissed Jerry West because he didn't have a good relationship with her. Even though he is knowledgeable and it would have been great for Jerry to mentor to both Rob and Magic, but more so Rob. Magic was never gonna stick around. He did the same thing when he was a coach. He doesn't like failure, when it is publicized.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:15 pm    Post subject:

are we close to a woj bomb?
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 7:57 pm    Post subject:

I don't get this talk about firing a coach.

It's really weird to be a guy who proved he could establish a system that can win championships just 13 months ago, is even being talked about being let go (Not that I think Jeanie is that foolish).

Did anyone see what Luke Walton did in Sacto? Vogel has shown 2 places that if you give him the right help his teams overacheive.

The Lakers made drastic changes, and they added a lot of stars, stars who don't really run around on defensive rotations and defend. Stars that also are not used to sharing the ball. And in doing that, they took away his best role guys in his system like KCP, Carushow etc.

The guy has made some mistakes, but before I would ever break up the AD/Bron/Vogel partnership that has never even lost a playoff series together with AD healthy, the Lakers need to build a team with some supporting role players that can do what Vogel needs. I mean how good would Phil have been without some Triangle talent? How good was that 2003-04 season where we had so many issues and fell flat in the playoffs ... and Payton never really fit in. That's 4 HOF'ers.

Vogel has an even tougher job, maybe the toughest job. And he's not the same level coach as those all time great coaches. But for what I've seen around the league, mark my words guys, he's better than 90% of what's out there. No coach exists who is perfect. But you can't rob someone of their all their best role players and then fire them when it's not immediately working. We're 9-9 and that's with Bron having played about 2 good games all season. Westbrook is one of the toughest guys in the NBA to fit in, as great as a talent he is. I would wait until the season is over before I evaluated this.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 8:06 pm    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
Vogel has an even tougher job, maybe the toughest job. And he's not the same level coach as those all time great coaches. But for what I've seen around the league, mark my words guys, he's better than 90% of what's out there. No coach exists who is perfect. But you can't rob someone of their all their best role players and then fire them when it's not immediately working. We're 9-9 and that's with Bron having played about 2 good games all season. Westbrook is one of the toughest guys in the NBA to fit in, as great as a talent he is. I would wait until the season is over before I evaluated this.


I agree with this. There's no point in firing Vogel unless you have a clear replacement in mind. Even if we could hire anyone we wanted, including coaches who are under contract, I can't think of anyone who would be a particularly good fit. Maybe Doc Rivers, but that would make people's heads explode.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:42 am    Post subject:

Why do I keep hearing this thread's title in Emperor Palpatine's voice?
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 8:53 pm    Post subject:

If they lost the game last night I really thought it could have been the axe.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:56 pm    Post subject:

If Vogel is serious about keeping his job, he will ride the following lineup for most minutes:

Reaves and THT with the big 3.

Russ
Reaves
THT
Lebron
AD

Has enough playmaking and shooting without losing the defense.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:31 am    Post subject:

Found out a rather weird stat. Two times before, Bron has formed a three all-star cast, and been part of a team that got together with massive overhaul.

Miami in 2010. Teamed with stars Wade/Bosh.(Bosh was added as FA)
Cleveland in 2014. Teamed with stars Kyrie/Love. (Love was added via trade)

This with Bron in his athletic prime. Miami was 9-8 at one point. The Cavs, fell to 19-20 (39 games in, sub .500). Both teams regrouped and made the NBA Finals.

Not sure if it will be relevant to our situation or roster. But it does seem when Bron forms a new star trio, initially it does not work. It takes quite a bit of time to even become a good team. Both teams were .500 or sub .500 level teams for eiter 1/4 or 1/2 the season.

It really seems to be quite difficult to make changes and have 3 stars play together, at first.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:24 am    Post subject:

Real issue is defense and at the core is the roster makeup. The team consists of two past their prime centers in Dwight and DJ. AD is F/C but is best at C but not with this roster. Once past AD you have LBJ & Melo, two former SF now playing PF. The only other forward is Ariza, currently out. Then the rest of the team is made up of undersized guards. The team is loaded with 6'1, 6'2, 6'3 and 6'4 guards. Where are the true swing players. To play modern, position less basketball, you need 6'5-6'8 guys that can play 1-3 even 4. Then you need some mobile bigs. That is before you factor half the team is old and not as athletic as they once were. That is a recipe for disaster. If Austin Reeves is one of your better defenders, you have a huge problem. The guy plays smart and with energy, but he doesn't have the muscle yet. THT is probably the only guard you can throw at bigger wings. Jerami Grant is the type of player the Lakers lack and the type of player that torches them. Whether or not you want to be blame Westbrook, it isn't WB, it was the loss of depth the WB trade caused.
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cthroatgtr
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:27 am    Post subject:

LakerSD wrote:
If Vogel is serious about keeping his job, he will ride the following lineup for most minutes:

Reaves and THT with the big 3.

Russ
Reaves
THT
Lebron
AD

Has enough playmaking and shooting without losing the defense.


Lacks shooting. Reeves is unproven and THT has yet to prove he can shoot either. You are also really small with LBJ at 6'8 then down to THT at 6'4.
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LakerSD
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:45 am    Post subject:

cthroatgtr wrote:
LakerSD wrote:
If Vogel is serious about keeping his job, he will ride the following lineup for most minutes:

Reaves and THT with the big 3.

Russ
Reaves
THT
Lebron
AD

Has enough playmaking and shooting without losing the defense.


Lacks shooting. Reeves is unproven and THT has yet to prove he can shoot either. You are also really small with LBJ at 6'8 then down to THT at 6'4.


Not worried about being small. The shooting concern is valid but it looks like Reaves hits his share and THT looks to be developing that 3 ball.

This lineup is obviously contingent upon Reaves and THT taking and making 3s.
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