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LAkers 4 Life
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Joined: 12 Apr 2001
Posts: 14629
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 Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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Mitch should have gotten the best deal for Shaq regardless of the team. Even if it were for a Western Conference opponent you make the trade to get your team the best possible pieces around Kobe. Now the Lakers have really nothing to show for it. An underachieving lazy Latard Odumb... an albatross contract in Brian Grant that they had to eat... a nice second option that they gave away fro Crappy Brown... and a very low first rounder that Mitch would probably waste on another Softa Vujacic or Brian Cooked.
Just wonderful... |
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NOODLESTYLE
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Joined: 24 Apr 2005
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| Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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Turiaf would be nice right now playing alongside Shaq. Kwame Brown? hmm I still am giving him until next season to see if he's really worth it 
Would you guys have trade Caron Butler for Darko? |
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lakers2626
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Joined: 27 Feb 2006
Posts: 1948
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| Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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| NOODLESTYLE wrote: | Turiaf would be nice right now playing alongside Shaq. Kwame Brown? hmm I still am giving him until next season to see if he's really worth it
Would you guys have trade Caron Butler for Darko? |
No, I would have given up Odom for Darko.
I liked Butler and he played well with Kobe. I think Darko and Mihm would have been a nice combination at the big men. |
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Klassix
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Posts: 1994
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| Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Uh. no? |
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LakerJam
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Joined: 02 Aug 2002
Posts: 18408
Location: Sherman Oaks, CA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | So you think Indy would prefer an unsigned Butler over an unsigned Peja? I doubt that. |
Actually, yes. Indiana was initially looking for an athletic swingman - hence their pursuit of Corey Maggette. Peja was the last option before stepping down a tier as to players they'd take. Remember, this isn't MVP caliber Peja - that Peja hasn't existed for 2 years now.
That said, the Caron trade was still the right deal at the time and I'm glad for Kwame's post defense. We were never going to sign Caron to an extension (he's not who we're saving cap space for), so he had to be moved. We were soft in the middle, had no one to man up the big players in this league, and Kwame does answer that very well. It's just hard to get excited about Kwame's defense when his offense is so inept, primarily because we lack consistency in our scorers. Were we to have that regular 2nd and 3rd guy, along with some bench depth and perimeter defense, we wouldn't be pained over Kwame's offensive ineptness. In fact, his defense would compliment that very well. It's just we don't have that so when Kwame fumbles away an offensive opportunity, we forget how important his man-up D really is.
We're frustrated, we hoped for more from him, we target him as a result. |
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rwongega
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Joined: 20 Jul 2005
Posts: 20510
Location: UCLA -> NY
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| Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 10:50 pm Post subject: Re: In Hindsight.. Would you still do the Trade? |
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| Intensity wrote: | So we've prettty much seen what we got in Kwame Brown. A big physical body with a slightly above average post defense coupled with small hands and an inefficient scorer around the basket. Knowing what you know now, and seeing what he brings to our team, factoring in the quickly rising talent of bynum, turiaf, and cook's shooting. Would you guys still trade Butler and Atkins for him?
Caron/Smush/Atkins/Sasha
Kobe/Caron/Sasha
Lamar/George/Walton
Cook/Turiaf
Mihm/Bynum
A plus from this is that Bynum would get a lot more minutes, and so would turiaf. I think that this roster is a lot better than the current one we have. Differences from this season and last season was that, Rudy had no offensive scheme or plan that everyone could buy into. All he did was implement a pick and roll all game. It was pathetic. I think that this squad would be more efficient in the triangle. Espescially with Chucky's ability to hit the three. What do you guys think? |
Hindsight's always 20/20. We traded for Kwame with the hope that he'd turn into a poor man's J O'Neal. He had the specs and the glimpses of being that and Mitch just thought with a change of scenery, it'd all work out. Although Darko would've been a better trade except it would've made the Pistons more lethal than they are now.
This is unlike the Snaq trade in which there was no way the Lakers would benefit unless Odom miraculously turned into Magic Johnson, Caron into Paul Pierce, and Brian Grant into Ben Wallace. But one can only imagine what our team would look like if we had Turiaf (who's better than Haslem IMO), Smush, a developed Brian Cook, etc with Snaq. |
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topramen78
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Joined: 15 Feb 2005
Posts: 1879
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| Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 11:52 pm Post subject: |
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| numero-ocho wrote: | I agreed with the trade, although I thought the price was a little steep. That's the price we had to pay to get him to sign a 3-year deal.
However, in retrospect, many of the bad moves Kupchak has made are the result of earlier bad trades and drafts. So you could say he wouldn't have had to make those moves if he'd drafted better.
Had we drafted David Harrison instead of Sasha or Boozer,Prince or Krstic instead of Rush, would we have still needed Kwame?
Just think how our roster could have looked if Kupchak had drafted wisely the previous three years.
Kobe
Odom
Caron
Mihm
DG
Bynum
Smush
Harrison (instead of Sasha)
Boozer,Krstic or Prince (instead of Rush)
Josh Howard (instead of Cook) |
Dumbest post ever. Wouldn't have mattered if we drafted all those guys, we wouldn't have been able to keep most of them. There's a thing called salary cap...this is NOT fantasy NBA.
Harrison can't even get the starting nod on a team with Jeff Foster and Scot Pollard.
Imagine if West drafted AK47 instead of Devean.... West sucks! |
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angel
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Posts: 14226
Location: city of angels
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 12:33 am Post subject: |
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As long as we are second guessing, we might as well say we should have traded Butler to the Hornets for the #4 overall pick and select Chris Paul. Unfortunately, decisions are made in realtime. It made sense to gamble on the development of a PF, because size was needed. The Kwame experiment is not over yet. He's still 23. If he regains his third year form, the Lakers will be well served. The Lakers also gambled on Bynum, but that gamble seems likely to payoff. The gamble with Ronny Turiaf also seems likely to payoff. G.M.s must be willing to take chances to improve. Next season may be Mihm and Turiaf starting. Two years from now may be Bynum and Turiaf starting. Kwame may still have a role on the team, or his role may become to clear salary cap space.
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lakers0505
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Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 10701
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 12:37 am Post subject: |
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| lakers2626 wrote: | | NOODLESTYLE wrote: | Turiaf would be nice right now playing alongside Shaq. Kwame Brown? hmm I still am giving him until next season to see if he's really worth it
Would you guys have trade Caron Butler for Darko? |
No, I would have given up Odom for Darko.
I liked Butler and he played well with Kobe. I think Darko and Mihm would have been a nice combination at the big men. |
You do have a point, now looking back, i would have shipped odom off in the offseason and kept caron. He could actually score along side kobe, i guess that late season surge with kobe was something odom simply will never do, maybe what we needed was their, we saw it , and thought we could do better ...apparently our gamble didnt pay off...thats the way it goes. |
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angel
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Posts: 14226
Location: city of angels
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 2:28 am Post subject: |
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Butler matched up with Kobe better than Lamar, but he was in less demand, because of his big contract.
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lakers0505
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Joined: 23 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 2:38 am Post subject: |
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| ahh actually forget what i said partly , forgot about te contract issue with butler, but if we had traded odom for a big, who was a proven rebounder or a proven pg and defender then i would keep caron and sign him. |
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Wino
Star Player
Joined: 07 Jun 2002
Posts: 9674
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 3:57 am Post subject: |
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| Socks wrote: | In hindsight no, but looking back, I can't blame Mitch for the deal. He was taking a gamble with limited risk and high reward. We lost the gamble, but gambling is the only way to quickly improve.
The lineup you show there might not be the current line-up though. LO might be at the PF or Chucky, Caron, or LO coulda been traded somewhere else. |
The problem is that too many things Mitch has done have not turned out well. Kwame, Divac. McKie. Caron. Profit. and even Shaq.
Things have gone rather poorly.
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ThePageDude
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Joined: 25 Jul 2002
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 4:57 am Post subject: |
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Its a myth that Kwame is a good overall defender.
He's mediocre to awful against the majority of the teams in the league (Heat/Rockets/Spurs are in the minority). People who think the only relevant defense is 1-on-1 (which is all that Kwame does), should try to explain
- how come most teams blow us out in the paint when Kwame is on the floor. Its not just that their PFs score, their penetrating guards have a field day as well.
- how come, since Mihm's injury, we've been giving up 100+ points to mediocre teams, mostly in the paint. (No, its not because Kobe and Smush have suddenly become such poor defenders). |
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Drifts
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Posts: 28374
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 5:17 am Post subject: |
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I'd still do the trade!!!
Kwame is our "secret weapon"...the Lakers have done a good job in keeping that secret remain unknown to the world. He just needs time and patience. Kwame is still young, he's a former no.1 overall pick, selected by the great Michael Jordan himself, no less. Kwame will be good someday, like Jermaine O'neal good. He's atheletic and plays good post defense. Who cares about offense?! Offense is overrated. Who cares about catching the ball?! This ain't baseball the last time I checked. Hmmp. Kwame!!! Kwame!!!
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CabinCreek44
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 5:45 am Post subject: |
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I've never been a Kwame fan, and said so loudly in this space when the trade was still a rumor. But I understand why they did it.
We would have only had Caron for this season and then he would have been gone. We were not going to pay him the kind of money he would have been able to command on the open market. We needed a big body in the low block. We hated Chucky Atkins and wanted to be rid of him too.
The fact is Kwame is the best low post defender on this team, and he is our best big at defending the high screen/roll. That is a fact. It's not his fault Phil has him sitting on the bench in big moments late in the game when teams are once again easily taking our lunch money away from us out top with high pick and rolls. That's on Phil.
Too many people get caught up in the fact that Kwame sucks offensively. That's true. And to that I say "so what?" This team's problem is not at the offensive end, it's on DEFENSE. And Kwame is semi-competent at that end of the floor and he makes the effort most of the time. He should be on the floor at the end of every game for his defense. That's the bottom line.
As for the Shaq trade, I guess some are never going to get over it, but perhaps we should try to remember two things...(1) It was time for him to go. The organization was not going to meet his huge contract demands when he did not have the professionalism and proper attitude to keep himself in proper physical condition. We were not a championship team by the end of Shaq's years here. And most of that was because Shaq did not care anymore.
(2) Kobe Bryant was a free agent. I don't think it's too much of a coincidence that he signed with the Lakers the day after Shaq was traded. He likely would have been gone if Shaq had not been dealt. The Lakers knew the clock was ticking. Kupchak did not have three months to work the phones and play chicken with other teams and get a better deal. If he had done that, Kobe probably would have been gone. OK, then maybe Shaq is still here but we are no longer a championship team anyway. Kobe would have been gone with nothing in return. Shaq would be fat, lazy and complaining. Yeah, that would have been fun!
The question is are we improving? I say yes. We still have the best player in the game. We have the theoretical best coach. We have some intriguing young talent. Yes, we are up and down and have suffered some horrible losses to pathetic teams. But we're a .500, middle of the pack ballclub. That's OK for now. This team is the victim right now of laughably unrealistic expectations. Once we broke up the dynasty it was never going to be easy. Incremental improvement, that's the best we can hope for with this young, untested squad.
The front office is maintaining the correct strategy...try to stay competitive and don't make panic trades or sign every aging has-been that hits the waiver wire. None of those things are going to make us a championship team right now. Stay the course, and wait for the right opportunity to get a BIG TIME player whose presence will give us an immediate and dramatic improvement and vault us back to the top. |
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ElginBaylor
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Joined: 05 Nov 2005
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Location: Hoosier Nation
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 6:06 am Post subject: |
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| CabinCreek44 wrote: | I've never been a Kwame fan, and said so loudly in this space when the trade was still a rumor. But I understand why they did it.
We would have only had Caron for this season and then he would have been gone. We were not going to pay him the kind of money he would have been able to command on the open market. We needed a big body in the low block. We hated Chucky Atkins and wanted to be rid of him too.
The fact is Kwame is the best low post defender on this team, and he is our best big at defending the high screen/roll. That is a fact. It's not his fault Phil has him sitting on the bench in big moments late in the game when teams are once again easily taking our lunch money away from us out top with high pick and rolls. That's on Phil.
Too many people get caught up in the fact that Kwame sucks offensively. That's true. And to that I say "so what?" This team's problem is not at the offensive end, it's on DEFENSE. And Kwame is semi-competent at that end of the floor and he makes the effort most of the time. He should be on the floor at the end of every game for his defense. That's the bottom line.
As for the Shaq trade, I guess some are never going to get over it, but perhaps we should try to remember two things...(1) It was time for him to go. The organization was not going to meet his huge contract demands when he did not have the professionalism and proper attitude to keep himself in proper physical condition. We were not a championship team by the end of Shaq's years here. And most of that was because Shaq did not care anymore.
(2) Kobe Bryant was a free agent. I don't think it's too much of a coincidence that he signed with the Lakers the day after Shaq was traded. He likely would have been gone if Shaq had not been dealt. The Lakers knew the clock was ticking. Kupchak did not have three months to work the phones and play chicken with other teams and get a better deal. If he had done that, Kobe probably would have been gone. OK, then maybe Shaq is still here but we are no longer a championship team anyway. Kobe would have been gone with nothing in return. Shaq would be fat, lazy and complaining. Yeah, that would have been fun!
The question is are we improving? I say yes. We still have the best player in the game. We have the theoretical best coach. We have some intriguing young talent. Yes, we are up and down and have suffered some horrible losses to pathetic teams. But we're a .500, middle of the pack ballclub. That's OK for now. This team is the victim right now of laughably unrealistic expectations. Once we broke up the dynasty it was never going to be easy. Incremental improvement, that's the best we can hope for with this young, untested squad.
The front office is maintaining the correct strategy...try to stay competitive and don't make panic trades or sign every aging has-been that hits the waiver wire. None of those things are going to make us a championship team right now. Stay the course, and wait for the right opportunity to get a BIG TIME player whose presence will give us an immediate and dramatic improvement and vault us back to the top. |
CC you always speak truth. Too bad some of the more impatient members here refuse to understand the reality of the situation. Yes, on the surface the Kwame trade now looks like a bad move and as much as I feel that Mitch has made some blunders as our GM, he potentially could have come away from this looking like a hero. Hindsight is 20/20 guys. In spite of all the lows we have been experiencing lately, I still believe there's hope that this franchise will return to glory a lot sooner than some of the other teams that have fallen over the recent years (Bulls, Celtics, Knicks, Jazz, etc.). I will always maintain Dr. Buss will not let this franchise fall into that category.
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karlmalonefan
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 6:51 am Post subject: |
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I thought it was a big mistake at the time, but I was willing to see how it went. So no, I wouldn't have done the trade. I would have rather signed a big with the mle or something. If we couldn't have signed anyone, well, PHX and NO are doing fine playing small ball, I think we would have been ok. Like someone else said, though. No use crying over spilled milk, can't go back and change it now, just hope he gets better with time...  |
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CabinCreek44
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 7:02 am Post subject: |
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Agreed, Elg. Dr. Buss clearly understands that he has to eventually field a very good team if he is going to keep filling those expensive seats at the Staples Center. He is a poker player who keeps his cards close to his vest. He'll go for broke however if he thinks he has a winning hand. At the same time I'm sure he also hopes that 8 championship teams (and 5 others that made it to the Finals before losing) in his 26 years of ownership has bought him some goodwill and patience among his fanbase. Some of his fanbase, anyway.
There are different levels of mediocrity in the NBA. But at the end of the day, mediocrity is still mediocrity. What's the difference between winning 44 or 40 ballgames? What's the difference between getting knocked out of the playoffs in the first round vs. the second round? Not much from where I'm standing.
It would be very disappointing if we do not make the playoffs. But even then, if I felt the team had improved over last season and had put together some good pieces for the future, I could live with that. We are not going to win a title this year. Ron Artest, Jalen Rose, Tony Delk, etc. would not have made that kind of a difference. Nor would Carlos Boozer.
Dr. Buss thinks big. Laker fans need to do the same. The owner and people running the organization want to get back to the top just as badly as the fans do. Dr. Buss has proven that time and again during his tenure. Anyone who can't understand that doesn't know what they're talking about. |
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numero-ocho
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Joined: 27 Jul 2004
Posts: 18203
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 7:24 am Post subject: |
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| topramen78 wrote: | | numero-ocho wrote: | I agreed with the trade, although I thought the price was a little steep. That's the price we had to pay to get him to sign a 3-year deal.
However, in retrospect, many of the bad moves Kupchak has made are the result of earlier bad trades and drafts. So you could say he wouldn't have had to make those moves if he'd drafted better.
Had we drafted David Harrison instead of Sasha or Boozer,Prince or Krstic instead of Rush, would we have still needed Kwame?
Just think how our roster could have looked if Kupchak had drafted wisely the previous three years.
Kobe
Odom
Caron
Mihm
DG
Bynum
Smush
Harrison (instead of Sasha)
Boozer,Krstic or Prince (instead of Rush)
Josh Howard (instead of Cook) |
Dumbest post ever. Wouldn't have mattered if we drafted all those guys, we wouldn't have been able to keep most of them. There's a thing called salary cap...this is NOT fantasy NBA.
Harrison can't even get the starting nod on a team with Jeff Foster and Scot Pollard.
Imagine if West drafted AK47 instead of Devean.... West sucks! |
As 1st round draft picks, all of those players would have been under rookie scale contracts. Didn't it occur to you that the players we drafted instead, with the exception of Kareem Rush are still with the team? The only reason Rush was let go is because the Lakers didn't think he was worth extending a qualifying offer. If they had, he'd still be a Laker.
By the time they reached their restricted free-agency status, they would have been with the Lakers three years and we would have had their Bird rights and we could have exceed the salary cap to re-sign them. |
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And 1
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Joined: 12 Apr 2001
Posts: 2586
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 9:16 am Post subject: |
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| lakers0505 wrote: | | ahh actually forget what i said partly , forgot about te contract issue with butler, but if we had traded odom for a big, who was a proven rebounder or a proven pg and defender then i would keep caron and sign him. |
I posted a similar thought on page 1 of this thread.
Essentially, I believe that Lamar Odom's trade value last off-season was higher than that of Butler's. I say that because of Odom's ability to play PF in the East and the fact that he was already locked up long term as opposed to Butler who would need to be resigned to a multi-year, high dollar contract.
As for who Odom could have fetched us, I assume that the Lakers would have only looked to secure a PF or center for him.
The options I proposed over the off-season included:
A) Tyson Chandler who was RFA; and,
B) Chris Bosh
You have to remember that, during this past off-season, people acknowledged that Bosh was a good developing player. But I'm unsure if anyone could imagine that he'd make All Star so soon. The deal that I proposed would have brought us Bosh and Jalen Rose for Odom, Chris Mihm, Devean George, and Miami's 1st. BTW, I've no doubts that Rose would have been significantly more effective as a facilitator than Odom could ever dream to be.
Another possibility was sending an Odom package to Philly for a resigned Sam Dalembert who is playing great defense this season.
As I said before, I don't believe that we could have resigned Butler long term. But I have no doubts that he would have played well enough with Kobe to attract a lot of attention this season. You could have traded him at the deadline or look to do a S&T with him over the summer. |
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Savory Griddles
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 9:25 am Post subject: |
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In hindsight, no. But that's only because I now know how many great players were on the block this year. Artest probably would have been ours if we still had Caron as a major piece for him. Caron+Miami pick+ Mihm>Peja.
Caron could have also helped in the quest for T Mac, R Lewis and maybe even KG. |
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bounty
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Posts: 3946
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 9:55 am Post subject: |
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this is where Mitches main weakness is it also what makes great GM's great.
Foresight. Kup so far hasnt proved to have any. Even if Bynum works out MOST assumed that was Jims pick, which could ultimately land him the job.
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Mailman04
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 10:02 am Post subject: |
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| If Profit had not been hurt, this trade wouldn't look as bad as it may now. They didnt give up anything in Atkins and Butler wasn't what they need any way. Kwame is a good defender for most part and Profit was really coming on when he was hurt. Trade wasn't as bad as most will lead you to believe. |
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pokoy
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 10:07 am Post subject: |
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| karlmalonefan wrote: | | I thought it was a big mistake at the time, but I was willing to see how it went. So no, I wouldn't have done the trade. I would have rather signed a big with the mle or something. If we couldn't have signed anyone, well, PHX and NO are doing fine playing small ball, I think we would have been ok. Like someone else said, though. No use crying over spilled milk, can't go back and change it now, just hope he gets better with time... |
Pretty much my feeling. I know a few LGers around here who are from the DC area too and I think they shared my adamant opposition to this trade when it was first rumored... but when it finally went through, and I couldn't really do anything but hope for the best.
Can't say I didn't see this coming, though. |
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angel
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Posts: 14226
Location: city of angels
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 10:15 am Post subject: |
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People overestimate Shaq's overall value. He was good for the short run, basically this year and last year. Shaq is 34 this month. The extra weight he has been carrying around for years will take it's toll physically. He's at 19.7ppg and 9.2rpg. His best years are already past. He's on the decline. On the other hand, Odom is 26 and Kwame is 23. The Lakers are on the rise.
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