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And 1
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 Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 10:33 am Post subject: |
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| angel wrote: | | People overestimate Shaq's overall value. He was good for the short run, basically this year and last year. Shaq is 34 this month. The extra weight he has been carrying around for years will take it's toll physically. He's at 19.7ppg and 9.2rpg. His best years are already past. He's on the decline. On the other hand, Odom is 26 and Kwame is 23. The Lakers are on the rise. |
Bob?
"Baghdad" Bob? |
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 10:49 am Post subject: |
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We need to get over the Shaq and Kwame trade.
Move forward not backwards.
The roster is what it is. How do we get better? That's the question.
And I think the Lakers can get better. They have capspace in 2007 and some tradable assets (Odom, Mihm) in 2006 along with (LOL I know they don't ever use it) the MLE.
Not to mention - if guys like Kwame, Cook and Parker came off the bench I think they would be much better players for us.
So the million dollar solution is to upgrade the starting PF+PG positions. |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 10:51 am Post subject: |
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| lakers0505 wrote: | | ahh actually forget what i said partly , forgot about te contract issue with butler, but if we had traded odom for a big, who was a proven rebounder or a proven pg and defender then i would keep caron and sign him. |
Buss has proven he will pay for top talent. I couldn't imagine him giving Butler $10 million a season.
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 10:53 am Post subject: |
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| ThePageDude wrote: |
- how come, since Mihm's injury, we've been giving up 100+ points to mediocre teams, mostly in the paint. (No, its not because Kobe and Smush have suddenly become such poor defenders).
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It isn't? You can't blame those wide open perimeter shots on Kwame.
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 10:53 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | lakers0505 wrote: | | ahh actually forget what i said partly , forgot about te contract issue with butler, but if we had traded odom for a big, who was a proven rebounder or a proven pg and defender then i would keep caron and sign him. |
Buss has proven he will pay for top talent. I couldn't imagine him giving Butler $10 million a season. |
50 million over 6 years to be exact.
I agree that is not worth it. Good player and I liked him alot, but he was Eddie #2. Not needed as much as he would have gotten paid.
Meaning in 2006 summer we lose him for nothing.
I can somewhat see why they traded him. They had no other choice.
And who knows. Maybe Kwame might become better next season. I mean I think he's much better off coming off the bench as a backup Center than starting at C or PF. |
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Wino
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 10:58 am Post subject: |
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| CabinCreek44 wrote: | I've never been a Kwame fan, and said so loudly in this space when the trade was still a rumor. But I understand why they did it.
We would have only had Caron for this season and then he would have been gone. We were not going to pay him the kind of money he would have been able to command on the open market. We needed a big body in the low block. We hated Chucky Atkins and wanted to be rid of him too.
The fact is Kwame is the best low post defender on this team, and he is our best big at defending the high screen/roll. That is a fact. It's not his fault Phil has him sitting on the bench in big moments late in the game when teams are once again easily taking our lunch money away from us out top with high pick and rolls. That's on Phil.
Too many people get caught up in the fact that Kwame sucks offensively. That's true. And to that I say "so what?" This team's problem is not at the offensive end, it's on DEFENSE. And Kwame is semi-competent at that end of the floor and he makes the effort most of the time. He should be on the floor at the end of every game for his defense. That's the bottom line.
As for the Shaq trade, I guess some are never going to get over it, but perhaps we should try to remember two things...(1) It was time for him to go. The organization was not going to meet his huge contract demands when he did not have the professionalism and proper attitude to keep himself in proper physical condition. We were not a championship team by the end of Shaq's years here. And most of that was because Shaq did not care anymore.
(2) Kobe Bryant was a free agent. I don't think it's too much of a coincidence that he signed with the Lakers the day after Shaq was traded. He likely would have been gone if Shaq had not been dealt. The Lakers knew the clock was ticking. Kupchak did not have three months to work the phones and play chicken with other teams and get a better deal. If he had done that, Kobe probably would have been gone. OK, then maybe Shaq is still here but we are no longer a championship team anyway. Kobe would have been gone with nothing in return. Shaq would be fat, lazy and complaining. Yeah, that would have been fun!
The question is are we improving? I say yes. We still have the best player in the game. We have the theoretical best coach. We have some intriguing young talent. Yes, we are up and down and have suffered some horrible losses to pathetic teams. But we're a .500, middle of the pack ballclub. That's OK for now. This team is the victim right now of laughably unrealistic expectations. Once we broke up the dynasty it was never going to be easy. Incremental improvement, that's the best we can hope for with this young, untested squad.
The front office is maintaining the correct strategy...try to stay competitive and don't make panic trades or sign every aging has-been that hits the waiver wire. None of those things are going to make us a championship team right now. Stay the course, and wait for the right opportunity to get a BIG TIME player whose presence will give us an immediate and dramatic improvement and vault us back to the top. |
I've been the biggest proponent of all the things you say here but dang there have been a lot of very unfortunate things that have occurred and to some degree I am beginning to believe that someone on this team has to step up and be accountable for those things. I never expected that the Lakers would be competitive before the 2007 season and I understand their reluctance to mess with their salary cap until it has a good chance to bring them another set of rings.
But when you consider the economic factors and what the incentives are, the Lakers have wasted a lot of cap space on people like Divac, McKie, Profit and Kwame. I don't know if this third year deal is being blown up by a bunch of die hard zealots who don't have it right but if this is true and if Phil continues not to play Kwame in key moments to showcase his defense in the crunch and if Kwame just continues to be an under achiever, there is going to be little ability for the Lakers to trade him for equal value. Where is that all going to leave us? And I do think the Lakers have wasted money on too many players that haven't panned out. Say what you want, call it bad luck and coincidence. Too much bad stuff has happened to this team. Better small steps would have improved this team a lot. Someone else on this team other than McKie would be a good thing. This guy is NEVER going to play significant minutes for us and he is NEVER going to be a factor.
All this stuff keeps going on and they pass on a number of players who might actually help us. I never thought I would feel this way but right now I am feeling like the Lakers are NOT taking care of their business and they are making bad decisions for bad reasons.
I can say one thing with no doubt in my mind. If 2008 goes by and this same BS is still happening, I will jump a ship that I have happily been on since 1960!!! They don't have to win but they have to be competitive. I'll give them their chance to rebuild but if they continue to make too many bad decisions I will take a break. I sat throught all those years where they couldn't beat the Celtics with a bat. I saw almost every single heart wrenching loss they had and I loved those teams because they tried hard and they had talent.
What's going on now, just makes me sick. It's a drag and I pray that they find a way to right the ship that appears to have veered off course.
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raffi
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 11:29 am Post subject: |
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| Wino wrote: | | CabinCreek44 wrote: | I've never been a Kwame fan, and said so loudly in this space when the trade was still a rumor. But I understand why they did it.
We would have only had Caron for this season and then he would have been gone. We were not going to pay him the kind of money he would have been able to command on the open market. We needed a big body in the low block. We hated Chucky Atkins and wanted to be rid of him too.
The fact is Kwame is the best low post defender on this team, and he is our best big at defending the high screen/roll. That is a fact. It's not his fault Phil has him sitting on the bench in big moments late in the game when teams are once again easily taking our lunch money away from us out top with high pick and rolls. That's on Phil.
Too many people get caught up in the fact that Kwame sucks offensively. That's true. And to that I say "so what?" This team's problem is not at the offensive end, it's on DEFENSE. And Kwame is semi-competent at that end of the floor and he makes the effort most of the time. He should be on the floor at the end of every game for his defense. That's the bottom line.
As for the Shaq trade, I guess some are never going to get over it, but perhaps we should try to remember two things...(1) It was time for him to go. The organization was not going to meet his huge contract demands when he did not have the professionalism and proper attitude to keep himself in proper physical condition. We were not a championship team by the end of Shaq's years here. And most of that was because Shaq did not care anymore.
(2) Kobe Bryant was a free agent. I don't think it's too much of a coincidence that he signed with the Lakers the day after Shaq was traded. He likely would have been gone if Shaq had not been dealt. The Lakers knew the clock was ticking. Kupchak did not have three months to work the phones and play chicken with other teams and get a better deal. If he had done that, Kobe probably would have been gone. OK, then maybe Shaq is still here but we are no longer a championship team anyway. Kobe would have been gone with nothing in return. Shaq would be fat, lazy and complaining. Yeah, that would have been fun!
The question is are we improving? I say yes. We still have the best player in the game. We have the theoretical best coach. We have some intriguing young talent. Yes, we are up and down and have suffered some horrible losses to pathetic teams. But we're a .500, middle of the pack ballclub. That's OK for now. This team is the victim right now of laughably unrealistic expectations. Once we broke up the dynasty it was never going to be easy. Incremental improvement, that's the best we can hope for with this young, untested squad.
The front office is maintaining the correct strategy...try to stay competitive and don't make panic trades or sign every aging has-been that hits the waiver wire. None of those things are going to make us a championship team right now. Stay the course, and wait for the right opportunity to get a BIG TIME player whose presence will give us an immediate and dramatic improvement and vault us back to the top. |
I've been the biggest proponent of all the things you say here but dang there have been a lot of very unfortunate things that have occurred and to some degree I am beginning to believe that someone on this team has to step up and be accountable for those things. I never expected that the Lakers would be competitive before the 2007 season and I understand their reluctance to mess with their salary cap until it has a good chance to bring them another set of rings.
But when you consider the economic factors and what the incentives are, the Lakers have wasted a lot of cap space on people like Divac, McKie, Profit and Kwame. I don't know if this third year deal is being blown up by a bunch of die hard zealots who don't have it right but if this is true and if Phil continues not to play Kwame in key moments to showcase his defense in the crunch and if Kwame just continues to be an under achiever, there is going to be little ability for the Lakers to trade him for equal value. Where is that all going to leave us? And I do think the Lakers have wasted money on too many players that haven't panned out. Say what you want, call it bad luck and coincidence. Too much bad stuff has happened to this team. Better small steps would have improved this team a lot. Someone else on this team other than McKie would be a good thing. This guy is NEVER going to play significant minutes for us and he is NEVER going to be a factor.
All this stuff keeps going on and they pass on a number of players who might actually help us. I never thought I would feel this way but right now I am feeling like the Lakers are NOT taking care of their business and they are making bad decisions for bad reasons.
I can say one thing with no doubt in my mind. If 2008 goes by and this same BS is still happening, I will jump a ship that I have happily been on since 1960!!! They don't have to win but they have to be competitive. I'll give them their chance to rebuild but if they continue to make too many bad decisions I will take a break. I sat throught all those years where they couldn't beat the Celtics with a bat. I saw almost every single heart wrenching loss they had and I loved those teams because they tried hard and they had talent.
What's going on now, just makes me sick. It's a drag and I pray that they find a way to right the ship that appears to have veered off course. |
Both of you have made thoughtful posts, but what I have been pointing to since even before the Shaq trade, was the breakdown in the interplayer relations. That spoke to a major void in leadership from the top. When you add to that, the poor talent evaluation over the past several years, my lack of confidence in the FO had been realized 3 years ago. The day we made that trade, I predicted doom and gloom, but not as some knee-jerk reaction of a rabid fan. Results aside, you could see this coming. At some point, no matter how much success you've had, it it impossible to overcome poor decisionmaking and horrible trades (which have bordered on absolute stupidity). There isn't enough goodwill, money, pet rocks, peace pipes or prayers that can overcome these things. And trust me, as someone who pays over $16k a year for my season seats, I wish it wasn't so.
Barring a miracle this org. is in dire straits - a realization many of you are just coming to. |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 11:33 am Post subject: |
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| psydesho wrote: | | I never liked the trade. I did think Kwame would be much better with the fresh start. Oh well - Spilled Milk |
I didn't like it either, but was convinced there was potential there.
What is upsetting is, the trade hardly matched talent, and was basically made for a theorhetical cap space plan that may or may not exist anymore.
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And 1
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 11:42 am Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | psydesho wrote: | | I never liked the trade. I did think Kwame would be much better with the fresh start. Oh well - Spilled Milk |
I didn't like it either, but was convinced there was potential there.
What is upsetting is, the trade hardly matched talent, and was basically made for a theorhetical cap space plan that may or may not exist anymore. |
Would like to hear your thoughts on my opinion that Odom might have fetched us a better prospect at the PF or center position than Butler and then having the option to deal him (Butler) at the trade deadline or the upcoming off-season as part of a S&T. |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 11:44 am Post subject: |
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^I wouldn't have minded if Odom was done straight up for Boozer. Fans were absolutly convinced that Boozer was damaged goods.
But hey, we'd have 3 legit starters in Boozer, Butler, and Bryant. There goes the capspace plan right?
Would've been 1 PG and 1 solid center away from real playoff contention.
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CabinCreek44
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 11:57 am Post subject: |
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Wino, the responsibility lies at the top, with the same man who has brought so much success to the organization we all know and love.
Divac and McKie are disasters no question about it. But the reason we signed them was because they could be had on the cheap. Obviously, they were overpaid even at the bargain prices we obtained them at. But the org obviously has a financial plan that they are firmly committed to, and I recall Dr. Buss commenting on that as far back as the end of the lockout in 1999. He said at that time that he was going to live by the structure the league had put in place and had nearly sacrificed a season and much public goodwill toward. I believe his rationale was "why did we fight so hard for these things if we're not going to try and live by them?".
The senselss, endless battering of Mitch Kupchak is insane. The man has an employer who is setting the budget which he allows his GM to work with. That's the bottom line. It's not complicated stuff. They have a business plan and they are going to stick with it. It's a good discipline. I still believe in my heart that they will jump all over a big time player if they can find him. But they're not going to rush to overpay/obtain marginal guys who are not going to make us a championship club.
Profit was a big loss for us this season. He was playing well. But the guy got hurt. Kupchak can't be blamed for that. Kwame was nothing when we got him. Many of us knew that. I don't agree with everything the coaching staff is doing with the guy, but they are trying to turn him into something and it's not easy. The guy is simply not that talented.
Raffi, as to the third year already being guaranteed, didn't someone in here get an e-mail the other day from John Black saying that that was not true? Or was that a hoax? For the life of me, I can't imagine the Lakers doing that. If they did, it was a terrible, horrible, awful decision. But there has been no confirmation of this from anyone connected to the organization, and if the Black e-mail was legit, him saying it's not true would certainly be good enough for me.
As to the breakdown on interplayer relations, yes, there's a lot of blame to go around there but the main guy I blame on that is Phil Jackson. He was being paid handsomely to coach the team and his refusal to get involved with Shaq and Kobe was ridiculous. And not only that, he chose sides and fed Kobe's carcass to the wolves in the media on a regular basis. Allowed Shaq to be fat and lazy. A very stupid series of decisions on his part. Should Buss/Kupchak have intervened? Certainly. But they were paying the guy $6 million a year at the time, after all.
When I look at the future beyond Dr. Buss' tenure, yes, I am very concerned. But he's still there and I am firmly convinced that if the right deal for the right guy comes along, he will move mountains to get it done. When I see them bypass a chance at a KG or T-Mac, then I will join the chorus of negativity. But when they're bypassing marginal guys, cancers and has-beens, I'll choose to believe that they have a plan. |
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ThePageDude
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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Teams dont just come up and take wide open jumpers, its not that simple.
Teams generate these wide open jumbers by:
1. running a 2-man offense that targets a Laker big to generate an outside shot. For reference check out what Delonte West did with the
pick-n-roll in the Celtics game. Kobe and Smush defended this OK, Kwame and Cook didnt.
2. using their quicker PFs to drive, and get the Laker big out of position, forcing a Laker guard to rotate, thus yielding a perimeter jumper. Brand did some of this in the Clippers game. He also consistently shot over Kwame, because Kwame respected his quickness, and was reluctant to follow him outside the paint.
3. beat the Laker bigs to get offensive rebounds, again tempting the Laker guards to shade inwards to help with the rebounding, and then passing out for an easy perimeter shot. Again the Celtics game. Its amazing how the Celtics dominated the paint (40 POINTS!) despite being so much shorter than the Laker frontcourt.
I'm not saying Kobe and Smush are blameless. They deserve some of the blame for gambling too much, and allowing penetration. But our bigs share a lot of the blame for allowing easy access to the paint, thus lowering our guards ability to really stretch out our perimeter defense. This is why teams that have a reputation for great perimeter defense usually have superb all-around defensive bigs (Detroit, SA).
-ThePageDude
| venturalakersfan wrote: | | ThePageDude wrote: |
- how come, since Mihm's injury, we've been giving up 100+ points to mediocre teams, mostly in the paint. (No, its not because Kobe and Smush have suddenly become such poor defenders).
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It isn't? You can't blame those wide open perimeter shots on Kwame. |
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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Everytime you guys feel like (bleep) on the Lakers for the Shaq trade look and remember I saw on TNT 2 weeks ago
Orlando lost Shaq, T-Mac and Penny for
Ariza
That was their final product. Ariza.
We have Odom, Kwame, 2 picks (unknown who they will be) some lux tax savings (not important to us but to Buss it probably is) and cap room in 2007.
The final product won't be known until 2007. It could be Odom+2 draft picked players+All-Star from cappsace.
I think we shouldn't be so ungreatful to pile on a franchise that has shown over the longrun - they always have made good sound decisions. |
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angel
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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Shaq wanted to leave the Lakers. That didn't improve his value. A team could only field offers it receives. Nobody wanted to give up their young superstar. They really didn't even want to give up their young All-Star. Tge Lakers did the best they could to recover from a bad situation.
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expertla
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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I would still do the trade.
Some of you guys must have a very short memory. What happened when Kwame was out with the injury? WE WERE SOFT AS BUTTER IN THE PAINT. Our interior D was non-existant. Kwame obviously has major shortcomings offensively, but at least he is a presence that you can't just move out of the way whenever you feel like it. So for that reason alone, I would still do the trade. |
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LakerFan4L
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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| thumpinghead wrote: | | No. But, I like Kwame Brown, I think once he gets over the fact that he was an abused child he will be able to fill his potential and avg 9pt and 8rb and 1.5 blks. We don't know about Turiaf and Cook yet for next year...could be that Cook does not continue to improve and still struggles on the boards and on D, and Turiaf could be more like Madsen constantly getting into foul trouble, and less like Charles Oakley. So Kwame is insurance at the PF spot. But we could have gotten better, if we had waited on trading Caron, i do agree... |
...
Ok.
One last time.. HE WILL NEVER FILL THAT POTENTIAL. Thats the freaking problem with that bum! He's a waste of an NBA body.. he will NEVER be a 9 point, 8 rebound, 1.5 block a game guy.. hes not good enough mentally.
Face it.. HES A BUST.
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | he will NEVER be a 9 point, 8 rebound, 1.5 block a game guy |
Well he was close to that (better in points) in his third season where he had 10/7/1 type of season.
I think he can become a 9/8/1.5 player. But probably with age and when he is a complete veteran. Maybe by age 25-27.
| Quote: | | Face it.. HES A BUST |
Yes. He had physical talent to be a Karl Malone/Chris Webber type of player but wound up being a inconsistent role player.
That still does not mean that he will never be a 9/8 player. I think he can become a solid Antonio Davis type of PF/C.
You guys don't realize that bigs ussually don't hit their primes until 27. |
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expertla
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| Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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Any more questions? Unless of course anyone thinks Caron can compete with the Piston's frontline or guard Tim Duncan.
Case Closed! |
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ThaLakeShow
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| Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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| HELL YES i would still do it. without a doubt. |
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kups
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| Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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I liked the trade then & still like the trade now. Only regret is that Caron could've been used in a trade for Artest.
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angel
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| Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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Kwame had a 10.9/7.4 season with the Wiz prior to being hampered by an injury in his fourth season. He only needs to get back to whare he already was in his third season and make slight improvements in his rebounding. Kwame just turned 24, so he can still improve. 12/8 seems very possible. Look at how Mihm improved in the last season to this season. Kwame doesn't have to improve much to become a solid starter.
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CrimsonLaker
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| Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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Of course I'd do it again. Kwame Brown is a beast. Look at the facts fellas, he knows the triangle better than anyone on the team not named Kobe, Luke, or Brian Cook. Seriously. Ever see his movement - its superb. Yeah, he misses layups and botches plays when the focus is on him....but how many times does he set the perfect screen or seal his man so our player can penetrate? Dude is a brilliant ball player - just doesn't have the offensive patience yet, but its coming around.
Kwame is a beast of a man - the dude is just an intense physical specimen. That alone makes him worth more than Caron. Caron is also a Kobe hater. Seriously - I know they were good friends off the court, but caron hated kobe on the court. He was quoted as saying "If Gilbert scored 81, I'd hate him." Kwame on the other hand loves playing with Kobe, he loves to learn, he wants to become a better player.
Yeah I do the trade again. Should've gotten Dwade and Odom in the original trade though. |
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threetimechamps
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| Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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| thumpinghead wrote: | | No. But, I like Kwame Brown, I think once he gets over the fact that he was an abused child he will be able to fill his potential and avg 9pt and 8rb and 1.5 blks. We don't know about Turiaf and Cook yet for next year...could be that Cook does not continue to improve and still struggles on the boards and on D, and Turiaf could be more like Madsen constantly getting into foul trouble, and less like Charles Oakley. So Kwame is insurance at the PF spot. But we could have gotten better, if we had waited on trading Caron, i do agree... |
That was a bit ruff..."get over the fact he was an abused child" lets have a little more human decency |
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Nahtanoj
Star Player
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2854
Location: Qld, Australia
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| Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 12:53 am Post subject: |
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| Loved the trade, still lovin' it. |
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