Poll: Should Mitch Kupchak be fired or "reassigned" at the end of this season?
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JerryMagicKobe
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 11:42 am    Post subject:

magic_bryant wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
^I disagree about JRich. Rich is the finisher, but when Davis is in the game, he creates the shots, the plays, and takes the tough ones. Rich is just a beneficiary of the opportunities created.

I wish the Lakers didn't pull out of the deal.


Agreed. Baron does ALL the ball-handling and decision-making. That's why they have problems. Baron can't do it all by himself.

I was against the deal at first, but in retrospect, I wish they'd went through with it.


Sounds like you just listed the reasons why nobody wanted Steve Francis, and said he was not a fit for the triangle, but these same traits are OK in Davis?
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dcarter4kobe
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 11:54 am    Post subject:

How can you not get anything back when you are tradeing the best center ever(Even through I hate fat boy) Mitch?????????????
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JerryMagicKobe
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 1:49 pm    Post subject:

dcarter4kobe wrote:
How can you not get anything back when you are tradeing the best center ever(Even through I hate fat boy) Mitch?????????????


Did you hear ANY GMs say "I can't believe Mitch traded Shaq to Miami when I offered a better deal"? Don't you think there would be some report, anywhere that describes something better? I'm not saying there weren't other offers, I just haven't seen any. That being said, Mitch should have pressed harder for Wade in the deal.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:04 pm    Post subject:

JerryMagicKobe wrote:
dcarter4kobe wrote:
How can you not get anything back when you are tradeing the best center ever(Even through I hate fat boy) Mitch?????????????


Did you hear ANY GMs say "I can't believe Mitch traded Shaq to Miami when I offered a better deal"? Don't you think there would be some report, anywhere that describes something better? I'm not saying there weren't other offers, I just haven't seen any. That being said, Mitch should have pressed harder for Wade in the deal.




That is no small mistake there, at least you can admit he screwed that one up. One thing you forgot to mention is how many times those teams changed GM's during their period of futility.
You metioned San Antoinio, Detroit, Miami and Cleveland amongst others but you failed to mention how many times those teams fired and replaced their General Managers. Replacing a General manager is sometimes part of the rebuilding process.
You mentioned that turnaround time is 17 years(do you have a link for that BTW??) but how many times in that span was a general manager fired and replaced for doing an inadequate job? Should we give Mitch 17 years then? He has been GM for 6 and so far he hasn't exactly been in line for GM of the year at any time.
One more thing you mentioned is "that we all agree the he(Mitch) has gotten better." Really, when did we all come to that concensus? I would argue that he has gotten worse.
One thing we agree upon is that firing Mitch without a backup plan would be a mistake. If we cannot find anyone that would be a better fit then we must endure his mediocrity until a better GM becomes availiable. Until then the Lakers should start searching for a new GM.----This is all I ask for.
By the sound of Jeannies interview last week Mitch will not be the GM next season if the Lakers do not make the playoffs.

BTW I would try to offer an assistant GM of a successful front office a position with the Lakers(ex:Presti) We have to start somewhere.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:13 pm    Post subject:

JerryMagicKobe wrote:
dcarter4kobe wrote:
How can you not get anything back when you are tradeing the best center ever(Even through I hate fat boy) Mitch?????????????


Did you hear ANY GMs say "I can't believe Mitch traded Shaq to Miami when I offered a better deal"? Don't you think there would be some report, anywhere that describes something better? I'm not saying there weren't other offers, I just haven't seen any. That being said, Mitch should have pressed harder for Wade in the deal.



They said Indiana offered Jermaine and Artest. Shaq did not want to play there. Oh well sit his hat ass down or explore a three way trade to get the pieces you want.
Critical Mistake.
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dcarter4kobe
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:33 pm    Post subject:

Kobe>T-mac wrote:
JerryMagicKobe wrote:
dcarter4kobe wrote:
How can you not get anything back when you are tradeing the best center ever(Even through I hate fat boy) Mitch?????????????


Did you hear ANY GMs say "I can't believe Mitch traded Shaq to Miami when I offered a better deal"? Don't you think there would be some report, anywhere that describes something better? I'm not saying there weren't other offers, I just haven't seen any. That being said, Mitch should have pressed harder for Wade in the deal.



They said Indiana offered Jermaine and Artest. Shaq did not want to play there. Oh well sit his hat ass down or explore a three way trade to get the pieces you want.
Critical Mistake.


I was just about to say that to JerryMagicKobe.Just think of a deal of Shaq and Rush 4 JO Ron and a fillier(Jeff Foster).We would have looked like

Jeff
JO
Ron
KObe
Chris Duhon(draft him instead of Sasha)
But the past is the past
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dcarter4kobe
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:36 pm    Post subject:

Kobe>T-mac wrote:
JerryMagicKobe wrote:
dcarter4kobe wrote:
How can you not get anything back when you are tradeing the best center ever(Even through I hate fat boy) Mitch?????????????


Did you hear ANY GMs say "I can't believe Mitch traded Shaq to Miami when I offered a better deal"? Don't you think there would be some report, anywhere that describes something better? I'm not saying there weren't other offers, I just haven't seen any. That being said, Mitch should have pressed harder for Wade in the deal.



They said Indiana offered Jermaine and Artest. Shaq did not want to play there. Oh well sit his hat ass down or explore a three way trade to get the pieces you want.
Critical Mistake.


Its not like the Fat Boy had a no-trade caulse and if they win with Shaq he probaly would have stayed after his contract was up with INDY
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JerryMagicKobe
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 3:36 pm    Post subject:

Kobe>T-mac wrote:
JerryMagicKobe wrote:
dcarter4kobe wrote:
How can you not get anything back when you are tradeing the best center ever(Even through I hate fat boy) Mitch?????????????


Did you hear ANY GMs say "I can't believe Mitch traded Shaq to Miami when I offered a better deal"? Don't you think there would be some report, anywhere that describes something better? I'm not saying there weren't other offers, I just haven't seen any. That being said, Mitch should have pressed harder for Wade in the deal.




That is no small mistake there, at least you can admit he screwed that one up. One thing you forgot to mention is how many times those teams changed GM's during their period of futility.
You metioned San Antoinio, Detroit, Miami and Cleveland amongst others but you failed to mention how many times those teams fired and replaced their General Managers. Replacing a General manager is sometimes part of the rebuilding process.
You mentioned that turnaround time is 17 years(do you have a link for that BTW??) but how many times in that span was a general manager fired and replaced for doing an inadequate job? Should we give Mitch 17 years then? He has been GM for 6 and so far he hasn't exactly been in line for GM of the year at any time.
One more thing you mentioned is "that we all agree the he(Mitch) has gotten better." Really, when did we all come to that concensus? I would argue that he has gotten worse.
One thing we agree upon is that firing Mitch without a backup plan would be a mistake. If we cannot find anyone that would be a better fit then we must endure his mediocrity until a better GM becomes availiable. Until then the Lakers should start searching for a new GM.----This is all I ask for.
By the sound of Jeannies interview last week Mitch will not be the GM next season if the Lakers do not make the playoffs.

BTW I would try to offer an assistant GM of a successful front office a position with the Lakers(ex:Presti) We have to start somewhere.


The Shaq trade was forced by Kobe's free agency, and a deal had to be done fast, or they would have lost Kobe. Mitch took the best deal on the table to get rid of Shaq and resign Kobe. The main part was resigning Kobe, and they couldn't take half a year to trade him like Indy did with Artest.

http://www.nba.com/history/awards_finalschampsmvp.html
Is the link to the list NBA Champions through 2002, and I just did some simple math from there.

Mitch has gotten better at the draft - Bynum and Turiaf are nice picks.

Presti would be on my list of candidates as well. BTW Colangelo is being hired for the same reason that many hate Jim Buss - nepotism.

I am not a "Mitch Supporter" I am a Lakers fan. Pretend I am Jerry Buss and you have five minutes to convince me to fire Kupchak. As Buss, I will ask you to:
1. State your reason why he should be fired.
2. Give me your list of replacements.

If you can convince me, or at least make a good argument, I am all for it. If not, its just impatient (or ignorant) fans spouting off on the internet. Keep in mind, Buss and Kupchak speak every day, have a 20 year relationship, and know exactly what they are trying to do, how to accomplish it, what their roles are. They talk about players, deals, have conversations with other GMs and Agents and players, all of which we, as fans, know nothing about. And Buss is the most successful pro owner during his reign, and wants nothing more than to build a Championship team.

So convince me.
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 4:05 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
Did you hear ANY GMs say "I can't believe Mitch traded Shaq to Miami when I offered a better deal"? Don't you think there would be some report, anywhere that describes something better? I'm not saying there weren't other offers, I just haven't seen any. That being said, Mitch should have pressed harder for Wade in the deal.


Buss made two decisions: (1) trade Shaq, and (2) let Shaq pick the teams he will play for. The first decision was obvious under the circumstances. The second was pragmatic, as few teams would want to pay $28M to a disgruntled Shaq. The Pacers would not have given us Jermaine O'Neal and Ron Artest if Shaq said, "I won't play in Indiana." It doesn't matter that we had the legal right to trade him -- no other GM would have given us a lot of value if he had to deal with that headache.

Those decisions meant that we had little bargaining power with other teams. Miami was not going to put Wade on the table, and we had no leverage to force them to do it. Miami wasn't in a bidding war with anyone, and they weren't going to give us their franchise player.

The fact that people blame Kupchak for that particular mess shows the futility of this discussion.
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JerryMagicKobe
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 4:16 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Quote:
Did you hear ANY GMs say "I can't believe Mitch traded Shaq to Miami when I offered a better deal"? Don't you think there would be some report, anywhere that describes something better? I'm not saying there weren't other offers, I just haven't seen any. That being said, Mitch should have pressed harder for Wade in the deal.


Buss made two decisions: (1) trade Shaq, and (2) let Shaq pick the teams he will play for. The first decision was obvious under the circumstances. The second was pragmatic, as few teams would want to pay $28M to a disgruntled Shaq. The Pacers would not have given us Jermaine O'Neal and Ron Artest if Shaq said, "I won't play in Indiana." It doesn't matter that we had the legal right to trade him -- no other GM would have given us a lot of value if he had to deal with that headache.

Those decisions meant that we had little bargaining power with other teams. Miami was not going to put Wade on the table, and we had no leverage to force them to do it. Miami wasn't in a bidding war with anyone, and they weren't going to give us their franchise player.

The fact that people blame Kupchak for that particular mess shows the futility of this discussion.


C'mon Aeneas Hunter, if you start spreading truth like this, then how can we all take the easy way out and blame Mitch. After all, if Mitch is to blame, and then they fire Mitch, we'll be back winning rings in no time. Simple, right?

Darn you and your logic, DARN YOU. Now we have to wait for the team to actually execute their plan and rebuild.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 6:25 pm    Post subject:

no
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 6:45 pm    Post subject:

It is very hard to determine just how handcuffed Mitch has been as the GM. However, my gut instinct says to vote YES. Re-assign or fire the guy. The problem is, if the Buss family is really only interested in a puppet GM then either Mitch won't be fired, or if he is, another puppet will be hired or Jimmy will assume the throne.

So what I really hope is that Mitch just sucks, cuz that can be the most easily fixed. I'd like to see what a guy like Kiki V could do with the Lakers franchise.

My gut instinct also says that Mitch will NOT be fired or re-assigned though. Unfortunately, I think the Lakers continue to "stick to their guns" even though it's mostly a bunch of pea-shooters.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 6:55 pm    Post subject:

It was twelve years from the last Laker championship to the start of the Three-peat, when Jerry west suddenly became the greatest GM ever. By the standard of some of you guys Jerry would never have gotten the chance to draft Kobe and sign Shaq, but would have been fired 3 or 4 years into the rebuild.

Mitch is West's hand picked replacement and apprenticed under him for many years. I'm willing to give him a few more years to make the Lakers contenders. Last year under Rudy I thought the Lakers just plained sucked--I hated watching them (but still rooted for them).

This year they suck less. Sometimes I still hate watching them, but not as much. Sometimes I really love watching them play; I also love watching young players develop as a team. I'm looking forward to these Lakers developing as individuals and as team. I may be disappointed, but I'm involved, and good or bad I'm rooting for my team.

I prefer that to "trade anybody but Kobe, and win NOW!" Maybe it's because I enjoy life, and just view BBall as entertainment. I really don't know, but I do find the constant carping criticism of the Lakers GM (and owner, coach and young players) distasteful.
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