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Aeneas Hunter
Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763
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 Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 11:25 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Laker4Life -- Mindless? Please explain.
I think some of the people have explained their logic and reasoning behind it. That is not mindless. It may be wrong but, it is definitely not mindless. |
Just look at the responses to Ziggy's post on the first page of this thread. That's what we see when this topic comes up. It is absolutely mindless.
Maybe there are some of you who can discuss this rationally. I've tried to do that before, but it always turns into a bunch of mindless "Mitch Sucks!" posts. There are a lot of fans who just can't deal with the realities of a rebuilding process, and Kupchak is a convenient scapegoat for those folks. Maybe that description doesn't apply to you. If you look at these threads honestly, though, you'll have to admit that I've got a point.
I'd write a defense of Kupchak, but what's the point? It would just draw the same sorts of responses that Ziggy got. I have better things to do with my time that running up my post count arguing with people who aren't willing to listen. Once again, that may not apply to you personally, but it absolutely does apply the majority of the people in the "Mitch Sucks!" threads.
But since a couple other posts took the bait, I'll add to what they said.
| Quote: | | LA Lakers Rule -- But at the same time I think these people will also have to conclude that the Laker ownership is ultimately at fault as well since as we all know Buss was not willing to sign Shaq and as a result placed the burden on the organization to make a move at a disadvantage. |
It actually goes back one year before then. After the '03 season, we needed to start rebuilding. Shaq was beginning his inevitable decline, we had no young talent, our depth was spotty at best, and the relationship between Shaq and Kobe was toxic. Rather than starting the rebuilding process right there (which would have been a difficult choice to make, in all fairness), we gambled that we could squeeze out one more title by signing Payton and Malone. It almost worked, but all of our proverbial chickens came home to roost after we lost to the Pistons.
| Quote: | | JerryMagicKobe -- - Baron Davis, Steve Francis - If you added either to this roster, they would not be a championship contender, and you would be over the cap for the remainder of Kobe's most productive years. |
You skipped Artest. That's the one that will be a flashpoint for the "Mitch Sucks!" crowd, at least until Artest blows up again and reminds everyone why most of the teams in the league weren't interested in him.
| Quote: | | JerryMagicKobe -- - All of the FAs that this board was after this past offseason were overpaid BUSTS. None would have improved the team significantly. |
On message boards, 20/20 hindsight is regularly employed. You don't see anyone complaining about our failure to sign Antonio Daniels.
| Quote: | | JerryMagicKobe -- - The rest are just the usual wishes - T-Mac, KG, JO, AI - Mid season deals didn't happen, maybe someone will move this offseason, but you still have to make the trade work for the other team, too. |
And none of the other GMs made those deals, either. The only significant deal at the trading deadline was the acquisition of Francis by Isiah "Activity is more important than achievement" Thomas. |
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LALfan4life
Star Player
Joined: 11 Jul 2004
Posts: 1266
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 11:38 am Post subject: |
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| Yes Kupchak has to move on. It is irrelevant at this point if he is solely responsible for the situation the Lakers currently find themselves. The fact of the matter is the Laker org has been pretty ineffective in adding important pieces under Kupchak and like any other business, ineffective mangers are removed to make way for new people and new ideas. |
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gng930
Franchise Player
Joined: 13 Apr 2001
Posts: 11475
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Sister Golden Hair wrote: | I think Mitch's sex organs need to be re-assigned.
SGH |
You're assuming he has any balls in the first place... |
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CBaller8
Franchise Player
Joined: 17 Feb 2002
Posts: 14876
Location: Reseda, CA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Fire this clown |
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RabidCB
Starting Rotation
Joined: 27 Jun 2005
Posts: 246
Location: Oxnard, CA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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| JerryMagicKobe wrote: | Of course Mitch should not be fired.
The peolpe who run the Lakers don't believe he should be, therefore, he shouldn't be. Buss has a plan for this franchise, he has detailed it to Phil, Kobe, and Mitch, and Mitch is carrying forward according to that plan. The only problem is that:
1. It Takes Time. The average turnaround time for a team that makes it to the finals (win or lose) to return to the finals after a major roster overhall (since 1970) is 17 Years. The Lakers, under Jerry West did it in 11 (1989 - 2000). The only "problem" is that as fans, we have unrealistic expectations, and expect immediate gratification.
2. Youth - Lakers are the second youngest team in the league, and that means erratic play, and bad defense. Mitch doesn't give a crap about signing mediocre veteran free agents to slightly improve this team. He would rather give the minutes to young guys, to see what they will do (good or bad).
3. They want cap space in 2007 so that they can significantly add to this team. All of you who are frustrated in watching some of our current players, please realize that this is a two year audition for the Lakers, who are looking for core players. Kobe, Bynum, Odom (or whoever they trade him for) are in. Mihm, Cook, Turiaf, Smush have shown improvement. Kwame has shown the Lakers things that they like, but has alot to overcome. Sasha, Luke, Devean, Slava, Green, Wafer, Mckie are questions. But they will not sign a medium tier player (borderline starter) until they make a significant move (Odom trade or 07 FA). They want the main pieces in place before they get complimantary players.
4. What deal did Mitch fail to make?
- Baron Davis, Steve Francis - If you added either to this roster, they would not be a championship contender, and you would be over the cap for the remainder of Kobe's most productive years.
- All of the FAs that this board was after this past offseason were overpaid BUSTS. None would have improved the team significantly.
- The rest are just the usual wishes - T-Mac, KG, JO, AI - Mid season deals didn't happen, maybe someone will move this offseason, but you still have to make the trade work for the other team, too.
5. Look at the teams at the top of the standings, and see how many times they were in the Lottery. San Antonio (Tim Duncan), Phoenix (Amare Stoudemire, Shawn Marion, Jared Jeffries, Luol Dang), Miami (Qyntel Woods, Dwyane Wade), Detroit (Rodney White, Darko Millicic) , Cleveland (Andre Miller, Jamal Crawford, DeSagana Diop, Caron Butler, Lebron James, Luke Jackson). Only Dallas has stayed out recently. Maybe you want Don Nelson as your GM? He'll keep you competitive and ringless.
And before you tell me Mitch should be fired, you have to say who you would hire in his place (don't cop out and give me "Anyone is better than Mitch" - I want names). |
Awesome post. Mitch blamers please read and absorb. |
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lakers0505
Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 10701
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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| RabidCB wrote: | | JerryMagicKobe wrote: | Of course Mitch should not be fired.
The peolpe who run the Lakers don't believe he should be, therefore, he shouldn't be. Buss has a plan for this franchise, he has detailed it to Phil, Kobe, and Mitch, and Mitch is carrying forward according to that plan. The only problem is that:
1. It Takes Time. The average turnaround time for a team that makes it to the finals (win or lose) to return to the finals after a major roster overhall (since 1970) is 17 Years. The Lakers, under Jerry West did it in 11 (1989 - 2000). The only "problem" is that as fans, we have unrealistic expectations, and expect immediate gratification.
2. Youth - Lakers are the second youngest team in the league, and that means erratic play, and bad defense. Mitch doesn't give a crap about signing mediocre veteran free agents to slightly improve this team. He would rather give the minutes to young guys, to see what they will do (good or bad).
3. They want cap space in 2007 so that they can significantly add to this team. All of you who are frustrated in watching some of our current players, please realize that this is a two year audition for the Lakers, who are looking for core players. Kobe, Bynum, Odom (or whoever they trade him for) are in. Mihm, Cook, Turiaf, Smush have shown improvement. Kwame has shown the Lakers things that they like, but has alot to overcome. Sasha, Luke, Devean, Slava, Green, Wafer, Mckie are questions. But they will not sign a medium tier player (borderline starter) until they make a significant move (Odom trade or 07 FA). They want the main pieces in place before they get complimantary players.
4. What deal did Mitch fail to make?
- Baron Davis, Steve Francis - If you added either to this roster, they would not be a championship contender, and you would be over the cap for the remainder of Kobe's most productive years.
- All of the FAs that this board was after this past offseason were overpaid BUSTS. None would have improved the team significantly.
- The rest are just the usual wishes - T-Mac, KG, JO, AI - Mid season deals didn't happen, maybe someone will move this offseason, but you still have to make the trade work for the other team, too.
5. Look at the teams at the top of the standings, and see how many times they were in the Lottery. San Antonio (Tim Duncan), Phoenix (Amare Stoudemire, Shawn Marion, Jared Jeffries, Luol Dang), Miami (Qyntel Woods, Dwyane Wade), Detroit (Rodney White, Darko Millicic) , Cleveland (Andre Miller, Jamal Crawford, DeSagana Diop, Caron Butler, Lebron James, Luke Jackson). Only Dallas has stayed out recently. Maybe you want Don Nelson as your GM? He'll keep you competitive and ringless.
And before you tell me Mitch should be fired, you have to say who you would hire in his place (don't cop out and give me "Anyone is better than Mitch" - I want names). |
Awesome post. Mitch blamers please read and absorb. |
Great post, but the sad thing is that many of us, have said about all of those things and it just usually gets pushed by the side, and i dont care too repeat them anymore because logic isnt as fun as making stuff up.. |
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LA_Lakers_Rule
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Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 19482
Location: The X-Files
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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JerryMagicKobe wrote:
| Quote: |
Of course Mitch should not be fired.
The peolpe who run the Lakers don't believe he should be, therefore, he shouldn't be. Buss has a plan for this franchise, he has detailed it to Phil, Kobe, and Mitch, and Mitch is carrying forward according to that plan. The only problem is that:
1. It Takes Time. The average turnaround time for a team that makes it to the finals (win or lose) to return to the finals after a major roster overhall (since 1970) is 17 Years. The Lakers, under Jerry West did it in 11 (1989 - 2000). The only "problem" is that as fans, we have unrealistic expectations, and expect immediate gratification.
2. Youth - Lakers are the second youngest team in the league, and that means erratic play, and bad defense. Mitch doesn't give a crap about signing mediocre veteran free agents to slightly improve this team. He would rather give the minutes to young guys, to see what they will do (good or bad).
3. They want cap space in 2007 so that they can significantly add to this team. All of you who are frustrated in watching some of our current players, please realize that this is a two year audition for the Lakers, who are looking for core players. Kobe, Bynum, Odom (or whoever they trade him for) are in. Mihm, Cook, Turiaf, Smush have shown improvement. Kwame has shown the Lakers things that they like, but has alot to overcome. Sasha, Luke, Devean, Slava, Green, Wafer, Mckie are questions. But they will not sign a medium tier player (borderline starter) until they make a significant move (Odom trade or 07 FA). They want the main pieces in place before they get complimantary players.
4. What deal did Mitch fail to make?
- Baron Davis, Steve Francis - If you added either to this roster, they would not be a championship contender, and you would be over the cap for the remainder of Kobe's most productive years.
- All of the FAs that this board was after this past offseason were overpaid BUSTS. None would have improved the team significantly.
- The rest are just the usual wishes - T-Mac, KG, JO, AI - Mid season deals didn't happen, maybe someone will move this offseason, but you still have to make the trade work for the other team, too.
5. Look at the teams at the top of the standings, and see how many times they were in the Lottery. San Antonio (Tim Duncan), Phoenix (Amare Stoudemire, Shawn Marion, Jared Jeffries, Luol Dang), Miami (Qyntel Woods, Dwyane Wade), Detroit (Rodney White, Darko Millicic) , Cleveland (Andre Miller, Jamal Crawford, DeSagana Diop, Caron Butler, Lebron James, Luke Jackson). Only Dallas has stayed out recently. Maybe you want Don Nelson as your GM? He'll keep you competitive and ringless.
And before you tell me Mitch should be fired, you have to say who you would hire in his place (don't cop out and give me "Anyone is better than Mitch" - I want names).
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Excellent post, an example of a voice of reason on this topic.
The fact is I think Mitch will return the Lakers to a competitive level MUCH SOONER than the average TURN AROUND TIME, THUS Mitch will ultimately prove he is an excellent GM in the end, and all of this ranting will have gone by the way side. Problem is for the next year or two we'll have to still put up with this.
_________________
Rule = win titles  
Good judgment comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. - Will Rogers ...  |
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Socks
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Joined: 01 Feb 2006
Posts: 10761
Location: Bay Area, CA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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Excellent post LA_Lakers_Rule.
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angel
Franchise Player
Joined: 31 Jul 2004
Posts: 14226
Location: city of angels
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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Mitch should get a contract extension after this draft.
_________________
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness. Only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate. Only love can do that." ~~Martin Luther King Jr.~~ |
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sodapoppenski
Star Player
Joined: 24 Apr 2005
Posts: 7364
Location: Washington, DC
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 4:33 pm Post subject: Re: Poll: Should Mitch Kupchak be fired or "reassigned" at the end of this season? |
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| yesman wrote: | | sodapoppenski wrote: | | LakerLanny wrote: | Should Mitch Kupchak be fired or "reassigned" at the end of this season?
Very simple, yes or no? |
Ummm, color me logical....
....but that's not even a "yes or no" question? 
Do you like apples or oranges? Yes or no?!?!?! |
He wasn't asking which of the two should be done, he was asking should one of the two be done. Use your head before bashing next time. |
Ahhhh, now I see.
My bad Lanny, I was hitting the bottle again (no, seriously!)  |
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sodapoppenski
Star Player
Joined: 24 Apr 2005
Posts: 7364
Location: Washington, DC
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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| lakers0505 wrote: | | RabidCB wrote: | | JerryMagicKobe wrote: | Of course Mitch should not be fired.
The peolpe who run the Lakers don't believe he should be, therefore, he shouldn't be. Buss has a plan for this franchise, he has detailed it to Phil, Kobe, and Mitch, and Mitch is carrying forward according to that plan. The only problem is that:
1. It Takes Time. The average turnaround time for a team that makes it to the finals (win or lose) to return to the finals after a major roster overhall (since 1970) is 17 Years. The Lakers, under Jerry West did it in 11 (1989 - 2000). The only "problem" is that as fans, we have unrealistic expectations, and expect immediate gratification.
2. Youth - Lakers are the second youngest team in the league, and that means erratic play, and bad defense. Mitch doesn't give a crap about signing mediocre veteran free agents to slightly improve this team. He would rather give the minutes to young guys, to see what they will do (good or bad).
3. They want cap space in 2007 so that they can significantly add to this team. All of you who are frustrated in watching some of our current players, please realize that this is a two year audition for the Lakers, who are looking for core players. Kobe, Bynum, Odom (or whoever they trade him for) are in. Mihm, Cook, Turiaf, Smush have shown improvement. Kwame has shown the Lakers things that they like, but has alot to overcome. Sasha, Luke, Devean, Slava, Green, Wafer, Mckie are questions. But they will not sign a medium tier player (borderline starter) until they make a significant move (Odom trade or 07 FA). They want the main pieces in place before they get complimantary players.
4. What deal did Mitch fail to make?
- Baron Davis, Steve Francis - If you added either to this roster, they would not be a championship contender, and you would be over the cap for the remainder of Kobe's most productive years.
- All of the FAs that this board was after this past offseason were overpaid BUSTS. None would have improved the team significantly.
- The rest are just the usual wishes - T-Mac, KG, JO, AI - Mid season deals didn't happen, maybe someone will move this offseason, but you still have to make the trade work for the other team, too.
5. Look at the teams at the top of the standings, and see how many times they were in the Lottery. San Antonio (Tim Duncan), Phoenix (Amare Stoudemire, Shawn Marion, Jared Jeffries, Luol Dang), Miami (Qyntel Woods, Dwyane Wade), Detroit (Rodney White, Darko Millicic) , Cleveland (Andre Miller, Jamal Crawford, DeSagana Diop, Caron Butler, Lebron James, Luke Jackson). Only Dallas has stayed out recently. Maybe you want Don Nelson as your GM? He'll keep you competitive and ringless.
And before you tell me Mitch should be fired, you have to say who you would hire in his place (don't cop out and give me "Anyone is better than Mitch" - I want names). |
Awesome post. Mitch blamers please read and absorb. |
Great post, but the sad thing is that many of us, have said about all of those things and it just usually gets pushed by the side, and i dont care too repeat them anymore because logic isnt as fun as making stuff up.. |
Agreed, people are awfully quite to bash and that post was a great
explaination of why we should be patient.
That said, I'll disagree with the notion that "of course Mitch shouldn't be
fired" at the beginning.
Not saying we should fire him now - but just because teams take a long
time to get back to the top, doesn't mean we should blindly keep the
reins in the same guy's hands without critically evaluating him.
Mitch should still be given a bit more time, but he's rightly considered
to be walking a fine line.
Mitch isn't as bad as some make him out to be, but if a better GM is
available and Buss will shell out the loot (Kiki for instance), I have no
problem letting Mitch walk. |
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Mike@LG
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Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 65135
Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Of course Mitch should not be fired.
The peolpe who run the Lakers don't believe he should be, therefore, he shouldn't be. Buss has a plan for this franchise, he has detailed it to Phil, Kobe, and Mitch, and Mitch is carrying forward according to that plan. The only problem is that:
1. It Takes Time. The average turnaround time for a team that makes it to the finals (win or lose) to return to the finals after a major roster overhall (since 1970) is 17 Years. The Lakers, under Jerry West did it in 11 (1989 - 2000). The only "problem" is that as fans, we have unrealistic expectations, and expect immediate gratification.
2. Youth - Lakers are the second youngest team in the league, and that means erratic play, and bad defense. Mitch doesn't give a crap about signing mediocre veteran free agents to slightly improve this team. He would rather give the minutes to young guys, to see what they will do (good or bad).
3. They want cap space in 2007 so that they can significantly add to this team. All of you who are frustrated in watching some of our current players, please realize that this is a two year audition for the Lakers, who are looking for core players. Kobe, Bynum, Odom (or whoever they trade him for) are in. Mihm, Cook, Turiaf, Smush have shown improvement. Kwame has shown the Lakers things that they like, but has alot to overcome. Sasha, Luke, Devean, Slava, Green, Wafer, Mckie are questions. But they will not sign a medium tier player (borderline starter) until they make a significant move (Odom trade or 07 FA). They want the main pieces in place before they get complimantary players.
4. What deal did Mitch fail to make?
- Baron Davis, Steve Francis - If you added either to this roster, they would not be a championship contender, and you would be over the cap for the remainder of Kobe's most productive years.
- All of the FAs that this board was after this past offseason were overpaid BUSTS. None would have improved the team significantly.
- The rest are just the usual wishes - T-Mac, KG, JO, AI - Mid season deals didn't happen, maybe someone will move this offseason, but you still have to make the trade work for the other team, too.
5. Look at the teams at the top of the standings, and see how many times they were in the Lottery. San Antonio (Tim Duncan), Phoenix (Amare Stoudemire, Shawn Marion, Jared Jeffries, Luol Dang), Miami (Qyntel Woods, Dwyane Wade), Detroit (Rodney White, Darko Millicic) , Cleveland (Andre Miller, Jamal Crawford, DeSagana Diop, Caron Butler, Lebron James, Luke Jackson). Only Dallas has stayed out recently. Maybe you want Don Nelson as your GM? He'll keep you competitive and ringless.
And before you tell me Mitch should be fired, you have to say who you would hire in his place (don't cop out and give me "Anyone is better than Mitch" - I want names). |
1. The Lakers shouldn't hold themselves to the expectations of the average turnaround for all the other teams. That is what made the franchise great. High risk moves. Great drafts. Luck. To the point of not just one championship, but dominating 5-10 year periods. This franchise is supposed to set the bar, not the rest of the league with poor ownership setting the bar for us.
2. Youth. While the team is young, the point to having a young team is seeing high turnovers, but usually flashes of brilliance. Take the Hornets for example. That's a young team too. Think Chris Paul, Desmond Mason, and JR Smith are struggling? No. Unlike the current crop of kids the Lakers have, those guys a very good talents. That's the difference.
3. The capspace dream. Here's my problem with that. If you want capspace to workout, the best is to draft unique talent first. That way you've got highly talented players on rookie contract scales. That's EXACTLY what happened in the mid 90s.
Think:
Eddie Jones
Nick Van Exel
Anthony Peeler
George Lynch
Vlade Divac
Elden Campbell
3 of them were All-Star players. 4 of them were very solid starters. The rest? Quality bench players. From #10 to #37 in the draft. Position didn't matter. The talent was there.
Now:
Mark Madsen
Kareem Rush
Andrew Bynum
Ronny Turiaf
Von Wafer
Brian Cook
Luke Walton
None of these guys have had the impact of the forementioned players early on.
4. The free agents. Assumptions. With Baron Davis, Bryant, and Odom on the team, capspace is gone, but do you think we'd be hurting so badly for talent? PG defense? Leadership? 2nd scoring options? Fast break points? No way. Get 2 bigmen who can play defense and work well off-the-ball and you've got a team that works. Ronny Turiaf and Bynum are on their way. Think Rasheed Wallace and Ben Wallace do the majority scoring for Detroit? What about Detroit in the late 80s, Laimbeer, Rodman, Mahorn, John Salley. They won multiple championships, period. Elite bigmen would be great, but if we have bigmen that can neutralize opposing elite bigmen defensively, the Lakers can be VERY competitive.
5. The lottery isn't necessary to field a competitive playoff team. Just finding the right talent. Working the right deals. It took Kupchak 5 years for a draft that most of us actually agree with. Dealwise, something else. Mihm was a steal. Kwame? No.
_________________
Resident Car Nut.
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans.
Last edited by Mike@LG on Fri Mar 03, 2006 4:56 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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wolfpaclaker
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Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 58336
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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^
Baron was not traded for because of his non-insured contract and constant health concerns
He has a more talented team in the GS and where are they?
5-6 games lower than the Lakers and not in the playoff 8.
Baron would have been a big upgrade in talent - but he was a big risk in terms of contract and health. |
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Mike@LG
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Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 65135
Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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Baron is still the #1 option in GSW. Wouldn't have that responsibility in LA.
_________________
Resident Car Nut.
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans. |
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wolfpaclaker
Retired Number
Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 58336
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | Baron is still the #1 option in GSW. Wouldn't have that responsibility in LA. |
Actually the number 1 option on many nights is J-Rich. Takes more shots and has more points.
Baron would have to do less here with Bryant and Odom - but that still doesn't mean his injuries and non-insured contract won't be an issue.
The reason the Lakers pulled out wasn't because of his talent. I think Mitch loves the guy (I heard he has wanted him for ages) |
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Mike@LG
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Posts: 65135
Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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^I disagree about JRich. Rich is the finisher, but when Davis is in the game, he creates the shots, the plays, and takes the tough ones. Rich is just a beneficiary of the opportunities created.
I wish the Lakers didn't pull out of the deal.
_________________
Resident Car Nut.
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans. |
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magic_bryant
Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 18179
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | ^I disagree about JRich. Rich is the finisher, but when Davis is in the game, he creates the shots, the plays, and takes the tough ones. Rich is just a beneficiary of the opportunities created.
I wish the Lakers didn't pull out of the deal. |
Agreed. Baron does ALL the ball-handling and decision-making. That's why they have problems. Baron can't do it all by himself.
I was against the deal at first, but in retrospect, I wish they'd went through with it.
_________________
Stephon Marbury on Kobe: "He's the only person on 'dis earth that can do 'dat. He guards people, like shuts 'em down. Then, to do 'dat on 'da offensive end. It's like 'Damn, I can't score on him AND he about to bust my ass." |
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KingKobeDubbz
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Joined: 09 Jun 2005
Posts: 734
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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| YES |
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Drifts
Retired Number
Joined: 22 Nov 2004
Posts: 28374
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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| JerryMagicKobe wrote: | Of course Mitch should not be fired.
The peolpe who run the Lakers don't believe he should be, therefore, he shouldn't be. Buss has a plan for this franchise, he has detailed it to Phil, Kobe, and Mitch, and Mitch is carrying forward according to that plan. The only problem is that:
1. It Takes Time. The average turnaround time for a team that makes it to the finals (win or lose) to return to the finals after a major roster overhall (since 1970) is 17 Years. The Lakers, under Jerry West did it in 11 (1989 - 2000). The only "problem" is that as fans, we have unrealistic expectations, and expect immediate gratification.
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There are no unrealistic expectations. The complaints against Mitch are valid. No one is complaining about Mitch not getting KG, or Mitch not making a deal in exchange for a future top pick. It's Mitch inability to draft sensibly/properly, and his incredible ability to sign players who either can't play or who are too old to play (Mckie/Divac). Take a look at Mitch's draft picks and his FA pickups. Do you really think those moves are good enough for Mitch to stay?
| Quote: |
2. Youth - Lakers are the second youngest team in the league, and that means erratic play, and bad defense. Mitch doesn't give a crap about signing mediocre veteran free agents to slightly improve this team. He would rather give the minutes to young guys, to see what they will do (good or bad).
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What? Are you kidding me? Did you miss the Divac and Mckie signings?
The last time I checked, Phil decides who gets the minutes and who gets to sit.
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3. They want cap space in 2007 so that they can significantly add to this team. All of you who are frustrated in watching some of our current players, please realize that this is a two year audition for the Lakers, who are looking for core players. Kobe, Bynum, Odom (or whoever they trade him for) are in. Mihm, Cook, Turiaf, Smush have shown improvement. Kwame has shown the Lakers things that they like, but has alot to overcome. Sasha, Luke, Devean, Slava, Green, Wafer, Mckie are questions. But they will not sign a medium tier player (borderline starter) until they make a significant move (Odom trade or 07 FA). They want the main pieces in place before they get complimantary players.
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It's not only this year or the past 2 years. It's longer than that. We're suffering from critical mistakes Mitch committed in the past.
Cook over Josh Howard
Rush over Prince
Baron Davis
Sasha over Duhon
Gilbert Arenas
Ron Artest
Divac/Mckie signings
Signing Kwame for 8 million
These things didn't happen overnight.
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4. What deal did Mitch fail to make?
- Baron Davis, Steve Francis - If you added either to this roster, they would not be a championship contender, and you would be over the cap for the remainder of Kobe's most productive years.
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As you see, not having someone like Baron Davis, the Lakers are lottery contenders or are barely in playoff contention. This team would've been able to use someone like Baron.
Baron would've made this team a contender, IMO. A bonefide all-star. Him instead of Smush would've been awesome.
I'm tired of posters dogging other players just because they're not wearing the Laker colors...or Mitch Kupchak didn't sign them.
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- All of the FAs that this board was after this past offseason were overpaid BUSTS. None would have improved the team significantly.
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By overpaid BUSTS, did you mean...Kwame and Lamar? Mckie and Divac?
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- The rest are just the usual wishes - T-Mac, KG, JO, AI - Mid season deals didn't happen, maybe someone will move this offseason, but you still have to make the trade work for the other team, too.
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No one's complaining about Mitch not getting those players.
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5. Look at the teams at the top of the standings, and see how many times they were in the Lottery. San Antonio (Tim Duncan), Phoenix (Amare Stoudemire, Shawn Marion, Jared Jeffries, Luol Dang), Miami (Qyntel Woods, Dwyane Wade), Detroit (Rodney White, Darko Millicic) , Cleveland (Andre Miller, Jamal Crawford, DeSagana Diop, Caron Butler, Lebron James, Luke Jackson). Only Dallas has stayed out recently. Maybe you want Don Nelson as your GM? He'll keep you competitive and ringless.
And before you tell me Mitch should be fired, you have to say who you would hire in his place (don't cop out and give me "Anyone is better than Mitch" - I want names). |
Spurs and Detroit has done a good job of building their team. Detroit didn't tank to draft Darko, they traded for the pick if I'm not mistaken. And none of the other teams you've mentioned has someone like Kobe Bryant. It's Kobe Bryant, the best player in the game.
I want Jerry West. I know getting him is very unlikely, but getting rid of Mitch Kupchak would be a very nice start.
_________________
"Now, if life is coffee, then the jobs, money & position in society are the cups. They are just tools to hold & contain life, but the quality of life doesn't change. Sometimes, by concentrating only on the cup, we fail to enjoy the coffee in it." |
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angel
Franchise Player
Joined: 31 Jul 2004
Posts: 14226
Location: city of angels
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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I wouldn't mind seeing Baron play with Kobe. The Lakers were after both Boozer and Baron during last year's trade deadline. Unfortunately, it didn't happen. On the other hand, Bynum has become a hot property.
_________________
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness. Only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate. Only love can do that." ~~Martin Luther King Jr.~~ |
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BigRedApple13
Star Player
Joined: 22 May 2002
Posts: 2275
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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Fired or Reassigned???
Definitely not fired (because Buss is as much to blame(if you want to blame anyone) for a lot of the team's current problems).
I think the question is if you believe Mitch (under this Lakers management and their "rebuilding" plan) can bring in the talent necessary to eventually compete for titles again? If the answer is YES, then he stays for one more season and his Judgement Day/Time is Summer 2007.
If the answer is NO, then he should be fired or reassigned as a Lakers scout or financial "guru" and try desperately to bring in an experienced guy to work with the Busses, who also isn't looked at publically as a puppet.
Personally, I think the answer is NO and he should be placed back in his former role as the Lakers GM Assistant.
Jimmy Buss becomes the Lakers General Manager. He gets most of the credit for the Bynum pick, he has the power and he's gonna be the future majority owner of the franchise whether the fans like it or not.
The entire Lakers scout team (American and Overseas with the exception of Mitch) is released the week after the Lakers final game this season.
I don't think Phil will stay as head coach if the Lakers aren't title contenders going into 2008(and they won't be barring an offseason miracle trade). So with that said..........if the Lakers believe in Brian Shaw???
Like Avery Johnson and Don Nelson in Dallas 2 years ago, Shaw is personally groomed by Phil to be the next Lakers coach starting next training camp. Either at the end of next season or the middle/end of 2008, Phil steps down and Brian takes over. Phil gets a nice going-away present from Dr. Buss and a future management spot in the org.
The full MLE gets used this summer on the BPA who doesn't have a dangerous recent injury history. (My pipedream-Mike James lol)
The LLE gets used this summer on the best vet big available. (Mike or whoever keeps up with the future Free Agent List, would appreciate a link 
Keepers: Kobe, Bynum, Smush(off the bench though), Mihm or Kwame, Turiaf, Cook (This list only changes if KG is LEGITIMATELY on the table in a deal)
Expendable: Odom (in the right deal for at least a very good player), George, Mihm or Kwame, Slava, Walton, Sasha, Green
The Lakers have to make a trade for an Impact Player either with Odom's "potential" and huge salary or the best deal they can offer including Mihm.
______
From the beginning of my post until the bolded sentence actually refers to Lanny's question. So if the mods want me to edit the rest out, I'll post it in a new thread later tonight. |
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JerryMagicKobe
Moderator
Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Posts: 15100
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Drifts wrote: | | JerryMagicKobe wrote: | Of course Mitch should not be fired.
The peolpe who run the Lakers don't believe he should be, therefore, he shouldn't be. Buss has a plan for this franchise, he has detailed it to Phil, Kobe, and Mitch, and Mitch is carrying forward according to that plan. The only problem is that:
1. It Takes Time. The average turnaround time for a team that makes it to the finals (win or lose) to return to the finals after a major roster overhall (since 1970) is 17 Years. The Lakers, under Jerry West did it in 11 (1989 - 2000). The only "problem" is that as fans, we have unrealistic expectations, and expect immediate gratification.
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There are no unrealistic expectations. The complaints against Mitch are valid. No one is complaining about Mitch not getting KG, or Mitch not making a deal in exchange for a future top pick. It's Mitch inability to draft sensibly/properly, and his incredible ability to sign players who either can't play or who are too old to play (Mckie/Divac). Take a look at Mitch's draft picks and his FA pickups. Do you really think those moves are good enough for Mitch to stay?
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2. Youth - Lakers are the second youngest team in the league, and that means erratic play, and bad defense. Mitch doesn't give a crap about signing mediocre veteran free agents to slightly improve this team. He would rather give the minutes to young guys, to see what they will do (good or bad).
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What? Are you kidding me? Did you miss the Divac and Mckie signings?
The last time I checked, Phil decides who gets the minutes and who gets to sit.
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3. They want cap space in 2007 so that they can significantly add to this team. All of you who are frustrated in watching some of our current players, please realize that this is a two year audition for the Lakers, who are looking for core players. Kobe, Bynum, Odom (or whoever they trade him for) are in. Mihm, Cook, Turiaf, Smush have shown improvement. Kwame has shown the Lakers things that they like, but has alot to overcome. Sasha, Luke, Devean, Slava, Green, Wafer, Mckie are questions. But they will not sign a medium tier player (borderline starter) until they make a significant move (Odom trade or 07 FA). They want the main pieces in place before they get complimantary players.
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It's not only this year or the past 2 years. It's longer than that. We're suffering from critical mistakes Mitch committed in the past.
Cook over Josh Howard
Rush over Prince
Baron Davis
Sasha over Duhon
Gilbert Arenas
Ron Artest
Divac/Mckie signings
Signing Kwame for 8 million
These things didn't happen overnight.
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4. What deal did Mitch fail to make?
- Baron Davis, Steve Francis - If you added either to this roster, they would not be a championship contender, and you would be over the cap for the remainder of Kobe's most productive years.
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As you see, not having someone like Baron Davis, the Lakers are lottery contenders or are barely in playoff contention. This team would've been able to use someone like Baron.Baron would've made this team a contender, IMO. A bonefide all-star. Him instead of Smush would've been awesome.
I'm tired of posters dogging other players just because they're not wearing the Laker colors...or Mitch Kupchak didn't sign them.
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- All of the FAs that this board was after this past offseason were overpaid BUSTS. None would have improved the team significantly.
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By overpaid BUSTS, did you mean...Kwame and Lamar? Mckie and Divac?
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- The rest are just the usual wishes - T-Mac, KG, JO, AI - Mid season deals didn't happen, maybe someone will move this offseason, but you still have to make the trade work for the other team, too.
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No one's complaining about Mitch not getting those players.
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5. Look at the teams at the top of the standings, and see how many times they were in the Lottery. San Antonio (Tim Duncan), Phoenix (Amare Stoudemire, Shawn Marion, Jared Jeffries, Luol Dang), Miami (Qyntel Woods, Dwyane Wade), Detroit (Rodney White, Darko Millicic) , Cleveland (Andre Miller, Jamal Crawford, DeSagana Diop, Caron Butler, Lebron James, Luke Jackson). Only Dallas has stayed out recently. Maybe you want Don Nelson as your GM? He'll keep you competitive and ringless.
And before you tell me Mitch should be fired, you have to say who you would hire in his place (don't cop out and give me "Anyone is better than Mitch" - I want names). |
Spurs and Detroit has done a good job of building their team. Detroit didn't tank to draft Darko, they traded for the pick if I'm not mistaken. And none of the other teams you've mentioned has someone like Kobe Bryant. It's Kobe Bryant, the best player in the game.
I want Jerry West. I know getting him is very unlikely, but getting rid of Mitch Kupchak would be a very nice start. |
I read your post, and still don't see you answer my points. You express yours with a lot of heart, but it still misses my point. So let me be clear:
(And before you tell me Mitch should be fired, you have to say who you would hire in his place (don't cop out and give me "Anyone is better than Mitch" - I want names).
I contend that Mitch is employed by someone (Dr. Buss) who is the owner most qualified to build a Championship team.
I state that Mitch was trained by Jerry West, who endorsed him for the job.
I assert that he is qualified for the job, and that his superriors believe so, too.
I am open to the possibility that he may not be the best person for the job.
I ask you who is? So far your only answer is impossible, Jerry isn't available, and you only have to see my name to know how I feel about The Logo. But surely you must have 10 or 15 names of better GMs, Right?
Just in case you need to think awhile, here are quick responses to your points.
1. There are no unrealistic expectations. There certainly are unrealistic expectations. I read it in posts, and in the newspaper, and hear it on the radio. Everyone wants this team to win, and win now. I do too, but that doesn't make it realistic. That's why I put that the soonest any team has ever returned to the finals after a roster overhaul is 11 years. That means we have 8 to go, best case, if you are realistic.
2. McKie and Divac were not free agent signings, as much as stop-gap roster filler, who took deals that fit into the 2007 plan. Mitch wasn't building a roster, he was preserving cap space, and these guys fit.
3.Cook over Josh Howard Just look at the draft board, and tell me how many GMs made the same mistake.
http://www.nba.com/draft2003/board.html I did the next one for you:
Rush over Prince - OK, CHI took Jay Williams, GS took Dunleavy, MEM took Drew Gooden, DEN took Nikoloz Tskitishvili, CLE took Wagner, NY took Nene, Clips-Wilcox, MIA-Butler, WAS-Jeffries, Clips-Ely, MIL-Haislip, IND-Jones, HOU-Nachbar, PHI-Welsch, WAS-Dixon, ORL-Bourchard, UTA-Humphrey, POR- Woods, PHX-Jacobson all before Prince was drafted. I guess all these guys should be fired too? I'd take Prince over any of them, but you might be able to make an argument for a couple of them. But after seeing this, you only have a problem with Mitch, Right?
Baron Davis- Injured and overpaid. Very-Nice player when healthy, but questionable attitude and bad back. Wore out his welcome, and doing it again.
Sasha over Duhon
http://www.nba.com/draft2004/board.html Again, look at the board, and tell me how this was a Mitch problem, rather than an illustration of the difficulty the draft presents.
Gilbert Arenas I like Arenas alot, but what is your point. What was the deal that Mitch should have done to get him here?
Ron Artest I like Artest, but Odom was too high of a price to pay for a question mark.
Divac/Mckie signings already addressed
Signing Kwame for 8 million Who would play PF now, if not for Kwame? Elaborate please. Are you criticizing the trade, or his salary?
4. This team would've been able to use someone like Baron- I agree, but because of the salary cap, being able to use someone doesn't justify adding them to your team. Davis, Kobe, Odom, Cook, and Mihm is not a Championship team, but you would be capped out for most of Kobe's productive life. This would prevent you from winning a ring.
5. By overpaid BUSTS, did you mean...Kwame and Lamar? Mckie and Divac? No, I was referring to all of the OTHER FA busts. Again, you are only looking at the Lakers, and ignoring all of the other unproductive moves done throughout the league. Again, only Mitch gets your blame.
6. Spurs and Detroit has done a good job of building their team - I agree, and in MANY posts on this board, I have stated that I believe Joe Dumars of Detroit and RJ Buford of SA are the two best GMs in the league, and would love to see them as GM of the Lakers. However, they aren't available, and neither is Jerry West.
And before you tell me Mitch should be fired, you have to say who you would hire in his place (don't cop out and give me "Anyone is better than Mitch" - I want names. |
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Drifts
Retired Number
Joined: 22 Nov 2004
Posts: 28374
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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| JerryMagicKobe wrote: |
I read your post, and still don't see you answer my points. You express yours with a lot of heart, but it still misses my point. So let me be clear:
(And before you tell me Mitch should be fired, you have to say who you would hire in his place (don't cop out and give me "Anyone is better than Mitch" - I want names).
I contend that Mitch is employed by someone (Dr. Buss) who is the owner most qualified to build a Championship team.
I state that Mitch was trained by Jerry West, who endorsed him for the job.
I assert that he is qualified for the job, and that his superriors believe so, too.
I am open to the possibility that he may not be the best person for the job.
I ask you who is? So far your only answer is impossible, Jerry isn't available, and you only have to see my name to know how I feel about The Logo. But surely you must have 10 or 15 names of better GMs, Right?
Just in case you need to think awhile, here are quick responses to your points.
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I'll make it simple, I'm not in the business of looking for available GMs. So I'm not the best person to find one for the Lakers. But I'm pretty sure Brian Colangelo is now with the Raptors, and Kiki might be available next year. Until Mitch resigns or is fired, we'll never know who's available or not.
But as a fan, I've watched Mitch fail miserably. Year in, year out.
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1. There are no unrealistic expectations. There certainly are unrealistic expectations. I read it in posts, and in the newspaper, and hear it on the radio. Everyone wants this team to win, and win now. I do too, but that doesn't make it realistic. That's why I put that the soonest any team has ever returned to the finals after a roster overhaul is 11 years. That means we have 8 to go, best case, if you are realistic.
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Again, I don't see anything unrealistic. This is Mr. Kupchak's job, and he's not doing it right. No one's asking for the moon. Just sensible moves from Mr. Kupchak. Build an NBA team around the best player in the game.
Picking Josh Howard, Prince and/or Duhon is not unrealistic. Those guys were available, the pick was there at Mitch's disposal.
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2. McKie and Divac were not free agent signings, as much as stop-gap roster filler, who took deals that fit into the 2007 plan. Mitch wasn't building a roster, he was preserving cap space, and these guys fit.
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let's see...that's 5 mil to Divac and 2.5 mil to Mckie well spent. Nice way to preserve cap space, isn't it?
I really don't care about any other dumb GM who made the same mistake/s Mr. Kupchak did. I don't give a rat's ass who they pick. As a matter of fact, I wish all GMs in the NBA are dumb/stupid...All I want is for our own GM to recognize talent and cash in when they are available. This is where it becomes very realistic. Josh Howard was possible. He could've been a Laker, not just wishful thinking. He could've been a Laker!
20+ GMs missing on Josh Howard doesn't justify Mitch Kupchak missing on him also. It just makes Mitch one of those who failed to recognize Josh Howard.
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Rush over Prince - OK, CHI took Jay Williams, GS took Dunleavy, MEM took Drew Gooden, DEN took Nikoloz Tskitishvili, CLE took Wagner, NY took Nene, Clips-Wilcox, MIA-Butler, WAS-Jeffries, Clips-Ely, MIL-Haislip, IND-Jones, HOU-Nachbar, PHI-Welsch, WAS-Dixon, ORL-Bourchard, UTA-Humphrey, POR- Woods, PHX-Jacobson all before Prince was drafted. I guess all these guys should be fired too? I'd take Prince over any of them, but you might be able to make an argument for a couple of them. But after seeing this, you only have a problem with Mitch, Right?
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Mitch scouted Prince. I was expecting him to draft Prince. I was surprised Mitch chose Rush without even scouting him. Prince was our guy all along.
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Baron Davis- Injured and overpaid. Very-Nice player when healthy, but questionable attitude and bad back. Wore out his welcome, and doing it again. |
We can argue about this. Depends really whether you like Baron or not. Personally, Baron would've been a nice fit with Kobe. Kobe/Baron/Odom/Mihm would've been good if not great. But again, depends on whether you like Baron or not.
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Sasha over Duhon
http://www.nba.com/draft2004/board.html Again, look at the board, and tell me how this was a Mitch problem, rather than an illustration of the difficulty the draft presents.
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1st - Cook over Howard
2nd - Rush over Prince
3rd - Vujacic over Duhon
Same excuses.
See any pattern here?
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Gilbert Arenas I like Arenas alot, but what is your point. What was the deal that Mitch should have done to get him here?
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We couldve had Arenas...that is if Mitch didn't trade the pick that could've gotten us Arenas.
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Ron Artest I like Artest, but Odom was too high of a price to pay for a question mark.
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Same thing with the Baron Davis issue. It's arguable. To be honest, I wasn't too sure about it either. But I now feel we should've made that deal. Artest brings a lot to the table, a lot more than Odom does. Besides, rumor has it that Odom wasn't even included in the deal (not sure if true).
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Divac/Mckie signings already addressed
Signing Kwame for 8 million Who would play PF now, if not for Kwame? Elaborate please. Are you criticizing the trade, or his salary?
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Kwame is overpaid and is a bust. I know he's young, and for the Lakers sake I wish and hope and pray that he'll become a decent/serviceable player. Having said that, he's overpaid, especially if rumors are true that the Lakers have guaranteed his 3rd year (or has picked that option).
See, Kwame ONLY asked for the MLE for 3 years (around 15 million). The Lakers re-adjusted his contract so that he'll get that amount in 2 years (that's why he earns 8 million per year) so the Lakers can keep the 2007 cap dream alive. Critical mistake.
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4. This team would've been able to use someone like Baron- I agree, but because of the salary cap, being able to use someone doesn't justify adding them to your team. Davis, Kobe, Odom, Cook, and Mihm is not a Championship team, but you would be capped out for most of Kobe's productive life. This would prevent you from winning a ring.
5. By overpaid BUSTS, did you mean...Kwame and Lamar? Mckie and Divac? No, I was referring to all of the OTHER FA busts. Again, you are only looking at the Lakers, and ignoring all of the other unproductive moves done throughout the league. Again, only Mitch gets your blame.
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Again, I don't care about the dumb decisions done around the league. I don't care if San Antonio signs Vlade Divac for $20 million. In fact, as I've already stated, I hope the rest of the league make stupid moves and sign guys 4 feet or under to play Center. All I want is for OUR OWN GM to make good decisions.
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6. Spurs and Detroit has done a good job of building their team - I agree, and in MANY posts on this board, I have stated that I believe Joe Dumars of Detroit and RJ Buford of SA are the two best GMs in the league, and would love to see them as GM of the Lakers. However, they aren't available, and neither is Jerry West.
And before you tell me Mitch should be fired, you have to say who you would hire in his place (don't cop out and give me "Anyone is better than Mitch" - I want names. |
Kiki or somebody else. No I'm not sure if he's/or they're available. I just want Mitch out, or relegated to some other job. I want him away from GM duties.
_________________
"Now, if life is coffee, then the jobs, money & position in society are the cups. They are just tools to hold & contain life, but the quality of life doesn't change. Sometimes, by concentrating only on the cup, we fail to enjoy the coffee in it." |
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JerryMagicKobe
Moderator
Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Posts: 15100
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| Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 11:06 am Post subject: |
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Drifts, Your entire argument is based on what you want, and you haven't addressed anything that doesn't support you argument. You can't blame MITCH for missing Prince when EVERY GM except Dumars missed him. If you tell me we can get Dumars, then Great, let's get him. If not then Mitch is in the same boat as everyone else. YOU ARE CONDEMNING MITCH based on 20-20 hindsight, and if that is the standard you use, then EVERY GM is worthless and should be fired. It's a fun game, DRIFTS, and I can play it against any GM in any sport. But how does it help the team? Give Mitch time, he is facing impossible opposition from the fans, but I have yet to hear ONE realistic name of a replacement.
You did mention Kiki, but I'll respecfully hold my tongue. Look at his moves since taking over, and tell me if you would be happy if Mitch made those moves.
Last edited by JerryMagicKobe on Sat Mar 04, 2006 11:45 am; edited 1 time in total |
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JerryMagicKobe
Moderator
Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Posts: 15100
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| Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 11:38 am Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | Quote: | Of course Mitch should not be fired.
The peolpe who run the Lakers don't believe he should be, therefore, he shouldn't be. Buss has a plan for this franchise, he has detailed it to Phil, Kobe, and Mitch, and Mitch is carrying forward according to that plan. The only problem is that:
1. It Takes Time. The average turnaround time for a team that makes it to the finals (win or lose) to return to the finals after a major roster overhall (since 1970) is 17 Years. The Lakers, under Jerry West did it in 11 (1989 - 2000). The only "problem" is that as fans, we have unrealistic expectations, and expect immediate gratification.
2. Youth - Lakers are the second youngest team in the league, and that means erratic play, and bad defense. Mitch doesn't give a crap about signing mediocre veteran free agents to slightly improve this team. He would rather give the minutes to young guys, to see what they will do (good or bad).
3. They want cap space in 2007 so that they can significantly add to this team. All of you who are frustrated in watching some of our current players, please realize that this is a two year audition for the Lakers, who are looking for core players. Kobe, Bynum, Odom (or whoever they trade him for) are in. Mihm, Cook, Turiaf, Smush have shown improvement. Kwame has shown the Lakers things that they like, but has alot to overcome. Sasha, Luke, Devean, Slava, Green, Wafer, Mckie are questions. But they will not sign a medium tier player (borderline starter) until they make a significant move (Odom trade or 07 FA). They want the main pieces in place before they get complimantary players.
4. What deal did Mitch fail to make?
- Baron Davis, Steve Francis - If you added either to this roster, they would not be a championship contender, and you would be over the cap for the remainder of Kobe's most productive years.
- All of the FAs that this board was after this past offseason were overpaid BUSTS. None would have improved the team significantly.
- The rest are just the usual wishes - T-Mac, KG, JO, AI - Mid season deals didn't happen, maybe someone will move this offseason, but you still have to make the trade work for the other team, too.
5. Look at the teams at the top of the standings, and see how many times they were in the Lottery. San Antonio (Tim Duncan), Phoenix (Amare Stoudemire, Shawn Marion, Jared Jeffries, Luol Dang), Miami (Qyntel Woods, Dwyane Wade), Detroit (Rodney White, Darko Millicic) , Cleveland (Andre Miller, Jamal Crawford, DeSagana Diop, Caron Butler, Lebron James, Luke Jackson). Only Dallas has stayed out recently. Maybe you want Don Nelson as your GM? He'll keep you competitive and ringless.
And before you tell me Mitch should be fired, you have to say who you would hire in his place (don't cop out and give me "Anyone is better than Mitch" - I want names). |
1. The Lakers shouldn't hold themselves to the expectations of the average turnaround for all the other teams. That is what made the franchise great. High risk moves. Great drafts. Luck. To the point of not just one championship, but dominating 5-10 year periods. This franchise is supposed to set the bar, not the rest of the league with poor ownership setting the bar for us.
2. Youth. While the team is young, the point to having a young team is seeing high turnovers, but usually flashes of brilliance. Take the Hornets for example. That's a young team too. Think Chris Paul, Desmond Mason, and JR Smith are struggling? No. Unlike the current crop of kids the Lakers have, those guys a very good talents. That's the difference.
3. The capspace dream. Here's my problem with that. If you want capspace to workout, the best is to draft unique talent first. That way you've got highly talented players on rookie contract scales. That's EXACTLY what happened in the mid 90s.
Think:
Eddie Jones
Nick Van Exel
Anthony Peeler
George Lynch
Vlade Divac
Elden Campbell
3 of them were All-Star players. 4 of them were very solid starters. The rest? Quality bench players. From #10 to #37 in the draft. Position didn't matter. The talent was there.
Now:
Mark Madsen
Kareem Rush
Andrew Bynum
Ronny Turiaf
Von Wafer
Brian Cook
Luke Walton
None of these guys have had the impact of the forementioned players early on.
4. The free agents. Assumptions. With Baron Davis, Bryant, and Odom on the team, capspace is gone, but do you think we'd be hurting so badly for talent? PG defense? Leadership? 2nd scoring options? Fast break points? No way. Get 2 bigmen who can play defense and work well off-the-ball and you've got a team that works. Ronny Turiaf and Bynum are on their way. Think Rasheed Wallace and Ben Wallace do the majority scoring for Detroit? What about Detroit in the late 80s, Laimbeer, Rodman, Mahorn, John Salley. They won multiple championships, period. Elite bigmen would be great, but if we have bigmen that can neutralize opposing elite bigmen defensively, the Lakers can be VERY competitive.
5. The lottery isn't necessary to field a competitive playoff team. Just finding the right talent. Working the right deals. It took Kupchak 5 years for a draft that most of us actually agree with. Dealwise, something else. Mihm was a steal. Kwame? No. |
Mike,
1. Average turnaround is 17 years, West did it in 11. If Mitch does it sooner are we ready to say that it was the fastest turn-around by a GM in the history of the NBA? -That's what Mitch is up against.
2. Youth - true, our youth isn't as good as other teams, but how many YEARS did the Hornets spend in the Lottery. How many top 5, top 10 picks have they had. Are you, as a Laker Fan prepared to spend that much time at the bottom to make it a fair comparison for Mitch? Of course not. Mitch has had to build this out of scraps. -Higher picks (Walton, Cook, Sasha, Turiaf, Von Wafer), other teams cast-offs (Mihm, Kwame), The youngest player ever drafted (Bynum), and the forgotten (Smush, Green)
3. Agreed - West was a great GM, and everyone pales in comparison. How does that mean we should fire Mitch. West made those moves in 1989 (Vlade)-1994(EJ) after a couple decades as Lakers GM. And Mitch's draft record is improving. Cook is looking servicable in the triangle, Turiaf has good potential, and was there potentially a bigger steal in the draft than Bynum? You are also comparing 4 year college graduates that were common in the draft then, to underclassman, and High school kids more common today. Of course they take longer to contribute.
4. We would be better with Baron, and I woulld love to see him in P+G. But he wasn't a fit due to cap-space and our need of a PF. The Lakers have a plan to add 1 more Max player, do you really want it to be Davis? He's injury prone, sometimes out of shape, often a pain in the neck, and always dominates the ball. He's just not the right fit. And those players are available every year. Can't we wait 1 more year to target a PF, and let that acquisition coincide with Bynum entering the starting line-up?
5. Mitch's first few drafts were not good, but he was drafting at the end of the first, and you are comparing him to the legend of Jerry West. There is no pressure like expecting Mitch to equal or surpass the Greatest GM in any sport, within 5 years of replacing him. And we all acknowledge that he has gotten better. As for comparing our players to Jerry's, you are givng away a huge advantage to West by comapring his players at the end of their careers, to Mitch's at the beginning of theirs.
Last edited by JerryMagicKobe on Sat Mar 04, 2006 11:48 am; edited 1 time in total |
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