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LTD
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Joined: 21 Jun 2005
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 Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Dumbest argument ever...lets break this down. 3pt shots are obviously more difficult to make than closer, midrange shots. Thus if a player takes more 3pt shots their percentage will go down. Jordan was primarily in the post in his years in Washington, Kobe, while he was put there for a minimal amount of time at the beginning of the season, sees most of time out on the perimeter. Thus my arugment is that Kobe would have a better midrange % than Jordan if you broke down Jordan then and Kobe now. So it factors into everything. |
Yeah, your argument is definitely the dumbest argument ever. Answer this, were you wrong when you said that dude was wrong with regards to the FG%? OK, then, that is ALL that I was saying. I could care less how he got the FG%.
My point was, and the reason that I made my post, was that he did in fact shoot 45% from the field. That's all. Nothing more, nothing less. |
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insidepresence
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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alright Kobe 27 -3pt = 49%
Jordan -3pt = 54%
and from this you can gather that Jordan is either a better midrange player or got to the basket more and that Kobe was a better perimeter player |
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insidepresence
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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| LTD wrote: | | Quote: | | Dumbest argument ever...lets break this down. 3pt shots are obviously more difficult to make than closer, midrange shots. Thus if a player takes more 3pt shots their percentage will go down. Jordan was primarily in the post in his years in Washington, Kobe, while he was put there for a minimal amount of time at the beginning of the season, sees most of time out on the perimeter. Thus my arugment is that Kobe would have a better midrange % than Jordan if you broke down Jordan then and Kobe now. So it factors into everything. |
Yeah, your argument is definitely the dumbest argument ever. Answer this, were you wrong when you said that dude was wrong with regards to the FG%? OK, then, that is ALL that I was saying. I could care less how he got the FG%.
My point was, and the reason that I made my post, was that he did in fact shoot 45% from the field. That's all. Nothing more, nothing less. |
But I wasn't wrong, and now your just wasting time. I said in my post Jordan shot 41% in Washington, he did, and he played 60 games, not exactly injury plagued, wake up junior |
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insidepresence
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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| it was the season after, when he played all 82 that he shot 45% |
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CorkyTomjanovich
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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| LTD wrote: |
Sine I won't dare watch Games 1,3, 4, and 5, I''m going to have to go back and watch game 2 because I sure don't remember Kobe being THAT much bigger during the 2004 finals than he is this season. |
That is the year Kobe came in at a very light 210. He eventually got up to 215, 5 pounds lighter than he is right now.
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LakerJam
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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| tgf5 wrote: | | LakerJam wrote: | | tgf5 wrote: | | insidepresence wrote: | | tgf5 wrote: | | MJ scores in every way better than Kobe except Kobe has the advantage in the range. That is about it. But Kobe's career isn't done yet and the difference is not substantial. |
Wrong, Kobe's midrange game is already better than MJ's...just about everybody agrees with that |
MJ was scoring 20+ PPG not too long ago at 40 years of age. And at 40, you aren't as fast or quick but MJs midrange game is deadly. MJ has a perfected fadeaway where Kobe's sometimes goes away. MJ also always shot around 50%, and even 45% at 40 years of age. Sorry but MJs experience over his entire career easily puts his midrange game above Kobe's. |
Kobe's mid range is just as lethal and potent as MJ's ever was. It's a well known truth that Michael was an attack-the-basket type of scorer who didn't even develop a true jump shot until his later years. The fact that Kobe already has that shot, and has had it since his early 20s, is astounding. Thus, unless you're suggesting Kobe hasn't bothered to improve on that area of his game - something that is quite rididulous given Kobe's work ethic - it sounds more like you just need to protect the greatness of Michael Jordan, which isn't necessary. It's okay that Kobe be just as good or better. The world won't collapse if MIchael Jordan doesn't forever stay the G.O.A.T. I promise. |
 MJ was always an attacker, but he also almost always had a jumpshot, it just wasn't perfected until later and he didn't use it because why take a 18ft jumpshot when you can drive and get a layup?
Kobe is my favourite player and I never liked Jordan, but you have to respect the player who is known as the greatest of all time for now by the majority of basketball fans. Nowhere did I say Kobe hasn't improved, he has, especially from last season to this season. |
I absolutely respect MJ's game, but that doesn't mean I have to buy into the silliness that his greatness can never be surpassed. By virtue of human nature, that argument is majorly flawed. Athletes always take what came before them and improve upon it. Always. Every time. The Olympics shows us that every four years. MJ will not remain the G.O.A.T. because players will take what he did and make it better, then add to it. Indeed, Kobe is working on that very thing as his career unfolds - and that's a good thing for basketball.
As to MJ's jump shot, what you're saying is not true. Even his ex-teammates and greats who played against him, acknowledge that MJ didn't develop a reliable jump shot until later when his athleticism started declining a bit. I appreciate your passion and how much you wish to honor the past, but don't fall into the trap of needing to "win" this argument so badly that you can't even be honest. At the end of the day, MJ’s weakness was outside shooting, but so what? He was still the most dominant player of his era. Kobe's weakness isn't in his skills, rather it's been about his decision making. But even that hasn't been a weakness this year.
The reality is that we may well be watching the G.O.A.T. develop in Kobe Bryant. We shouldn't waste it arguing about how the past was better. Let's let Kobe's career at the end of the day tell the story. In the meantime, I don't want to wake up when Kobe is 36 with his best behind him, and having failed to savor every moment of it. I know what I’m seeing and I know I’ve never seen it before. |
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LTD
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | But I wasn't wrong, and now your just wasting time. I said in my post Jordan shot 41% in Washington, he did, and he played 60 games, not exactly injury plagued, wake up junior |
60 games is not injury plagued? I won't even mention that he played quite a few games THROUGH the knee pain. Obviously you don't remember that season if you don't think MJ had an injury plagued season.
Anyway, I'm going to end it with this. THe dude said that Jordan shoot 45% at age 40. You then reference a season where he shot 41% at age 39, and you are calling my argument dumb? |
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tgf5
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerJam wrote: |
I absolutely respect MJ's game, but that doesn't mean I have to buy into the silliness that his greatness can never be surpassed. By virtue of human nature, that argument is majorly flawed. Athletes always take what came before them and improve upon it. Always. Every time. The Olympics shows us that every four years. MJ will not remain the G.O.A.T. because players will take what he did and make it better, then add to it. Indeed, Kobe is working on that very thing as his career unfolds - and that's a good thing for basketball.
As to MJ's jump shot, what you're saying is not true. Even his ex-teammates and greats who played against him, acknowledge that MJ didn't develop a reliable jump shot until later when his athleticism started declining a bit. I appreciate your passion and how much you wish to honor the past, but don't fall into the trap of needing to "win" this argument so badly that you can't even be honest. At the end of the day, MJ’s weakness was outside shooting, but so what? He was still the most dominant player of his era. Kobe's weakness isn't in his skills, rather it's been about his decision making. But even that hasn't been a weakness this year.
The reality is that we may well be watching the G.O.A.T. develop in Kobe Bryant. We shouldn't waste it arguing about how the past was better. Let's let Kobe's career at the end of the day tell the story. In the meantime, I don't want to wake up when Kobe is 36 with his best behind him, and having failed to savor every moment of it. I know what I’m seeing and I know I’ve never seen it before. |
Early in his career Jordan was not a good jumpshooter, yes. But Kobe is in his 10th season and in MJs 10th season his jumpshot was there. Was Kobe always a reliable jumpshooter when he came into the league the first few seasons? Probably, but not always either. |
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LakerJam
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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| CorkyTomjanovich wrote: | | LTD wrote: |
Sine I won't dare watch Games 1,3, 4, and 5, I''m going to have to go back and watch game 2 because I sure don't remember Kobe being THAT much bigger during the 2004 finals than he is this season. |
That is the year Kobe came in at a very light 210. He eventually got up to 215, 5 pounds lighter than he is right now. |
Allow me to add to this that there's a difference to being 215 in shape and just being 215. Kobe was not himself physically that year by any stretch of the imagination. |
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LakerJam
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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| re4ee wrote: | I don't care what anybody thinks/says/writes/posts, Kobe is flat out the best player in the NBA, hands down! By the time he's finished, knowledgeable BBall people will say... "Michael WHO?"
He holds himself back, so as to not lose contact with his teammates, yet still can fill a highlight reel, even when he can hardly breathe. I am just getting over a similar bronchitis, and I am just freaking exhausted!
Nobody, and I mean absolutely NOBODY has ever displayed such a wide range of skills, and basketball mastery, ever.
It's no wonder the powers that be had to knock him down so much, hyping every young stud, or even semi-stud that comes down the pike, just to keep the fans interested. Unleashed, Kobe would rule the league as none before has.
That off-balance, fade-away buzzer-beater last night was unworldly, and yet he made it look positively routine. |
I agree with this so much. In fact, I'm in awe watching this kid play. He's effortless out there and it's totally amazing.
About your post and the powers that be trying to minimize him: In spite of all that, U.S.A. Basketball is building the team around Kobe Bryant and that says it all. |
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insidepresence
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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| LTD wrote: | | Quote: | | But I wasn't wrong, and now your just wasting time. I said in my post Jordan shot 41% in Washington, he did, and he played 60 games, not exactly injury plagued, wake up junior |
60 games is not injury plagued? I won't even mention that he played quite a few games THROUGH the knee pain. Obviously you don't remember that season if you don't think MJ had an injury plagued season.
Anyway, I'm going to end it with this. THe dude said that Jordan shoot 45% at age 40. You then reference a season where he shot 41% at age 39, and you are calling my argument dumb? |
Yes very, and the fact is, he and I were both right, Jordan shot both 45% and 41% in Washingon, he is the one that made the statment that Jordan was 40 in Washington, and he was right. You were the one who said "who cares what factors into it" in regards to shooting percentage (DAE) and then you claimed I was wrong. So yes, very dumb |
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re4ee
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerJam wrote: | | re4ee wrote: | I don't care what anybody thinks/says/writes/posts, Kobe is flat out the best player in the NBA, hands down! By the time he's finished, knowledgeable BBall people will say... "Michael WHO?"
He holds himself back, so as to not lose contact with his teammates, yet still can fill a highlight reel, even when he can hardly breathe. I am just getting over a similar bronchitis, and I am just freaking exhausted!
Nobody, and I mean absolutely NOBODY has ever displayed such a wide range of skills, and basketball mastery, ever.
It's no wonder the powers that be had to knock him down so much, hyping every young stud, or even semi-stud that comes down the pike, just to keep the fans interested. Unleashed, Kobe would rule the league as none before has.
That off-balance, fade-away buzzer-beater last night was unworldly, and yet he made it look positively routine. |
I agree with this so much. In fact, I'm in awe watching this kid play. He's effortless out there and it's totally amazing.
About your post and the powers that be trying to minimize him: In spite of all that, U.S.A. Basketball is building the team around Kobe Bryant and that says it all. |
USA Basketball isn't the NBA, and doesn't subscribe to the sports media biases, they want to stop being embarassed by the rest of the world, having Kobe as a major part of the core is a pretty good first step. |
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LakerJam
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Warlord23 wrote: | As a fan of an opponent team, Kobe is the scariest player out there. But he is a double-edged sword. You just know that he's going to take more difficult shots, and might end up missing them. But the fear is always there.
The only time I've watched Kobe play with total detachment, without personal interest is the 2004 Finals. And the double-edged sword was cutting both ways. He knew he could beat the defense, and wanted to show the world. The Pistons knew this, and wanted him to take those tough shots.
The day Kobe sees basketball from the perspective of ruthlessly using his game to finish opponents (a la Jordan or Hakeem), instead of focusing on individual match-ups or shot attempts, is the day he'll make a legitimate case to be enshrined with the legends of the past.
Only problem is that this is not a sure thing. Will he get into that mode? Will he get the right teammates? We shall see. |
He's already there but you haven't been watching. Heck, you saw it last night. Kobe was cutting up the Spurs like they were nothing, yet he held back so his teammates could come along. Have you not noticed that even when we're struggling now, Kobe holds back? He's doing that because he needs confident teammates heading into the playoffs. That's why he passes when he can shoot and why we haven't been treated to anymore 60 pt. games.
Gotta give credit where credit is due. |
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LTD
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | You were the one who said "who cares what factors into it" in regards to shooting percentage (DAE) and then you claimed I was wrong. So yes, very dumb |
Obviously, you missed why I said that. You win. |
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tgf5
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerJam wrote: | | Warlord23 wrote: | As a fan of an opponent team, Kobe is the scariest player out there. But he is a double-edged sword. You just know that he's going to take more difficult shots, and might end up missing them. But the fear is always there.
The only time I've watched Kobe play with total detachment, without personal interest is the 2004 Finals. And the double-edged sword was cutting both ways. He knew he could beat the defense, and wanted to show the world. The Pistons knew this, and wanted him to take those tough shots.
The day Kobe sees basketball from the perspective of ruthlessly using his game to finish opponents (a la Jordan or Hakeem), instead of focusing on individual match-ups or shot attempts, is the day he'll make a legitimate case to be enshrined with the legends of the past.
Only problem is that this is not a sure thing. Will he get into that mode? Will he get the right teammates? We shall see. |
He's already there but you haven't been watching. Heck, you saw it last night. Kobe was cutting up the Spurs like they were nothing, yet he held back so his teammates could come along. Have you not noticed that even when we're struggling now, Kobe holds back? He's doing that because he needs confident teammates heading into the playoffs. That's why he passes when he can shoot and why we haven't been treated to anymore 60 pt. games.
Gotta give credit where credit is due. |
Kobe could have easily ran another pick and roll and dropped a 3 but instead he tried to get George a wide open 3 and he DID, but George could NOT make it. |
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LakerJam
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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| tgf5 wrote: | | LakerJam wrote: |
I absolutely respect MJ's game, but that doesn't mean I have to buy into the silliness that his greatness can never be surpassed. By virtue of human nature, that argument is majorly flawed. Athletes always take what came before them and improve upon it. Always. Every time. The Olympics shows us that every four years. MJ will not remain the G.O.A.T. because players will take what he did and make it better, then add to it. Indeed, Kobe is working on that very thing as his career unfolds - and that's a good thing for basketball.
As to MJ's jump shot, what you're saying is not true. Even his ex-teammates and greats who played against him, acknowledge that MJ didn't develop a reliable jump shot until later when his athleticism started declining a bit. I appreciate your passion and how much you wish to honor the past, but don't fall into the trap of needing to "win" this argument so badly that you can't even be honest. At the end of the day, MJ’s weakness was outside shooting, but so what? He was still the most dominant player of his era. Kobe's weakness isn't in his skills, rather it's been about his decision making. But even that hasn't been a weakness this year.
The reality is that we may well be watching the G.O.A.T. develop in Kobe Bryant. We shouldn't waste it arguing about how the past was better. Let's let Kobe's career at the end of the day tell the story. In the meantime, I don't want to wake up when Kobe is 36 with his best behind him, and having failed to savor every moment of it. I know what I’m seeing and I know I’ve never seen it before. |
Early in his career Jordan was not a good jumpshooter, yes. But Kobe is in his 10th season and in MJs 10th season his jumpshot was there. Was Kobe always a reliable jumpshooter when he came into the league the first few seasons? Probably, but not always either. |
Kobe at 23 was already being compared to MJ and it wasn't because of his dunking abilities. He was being compared to MJ because they had the same mid-range game. Indeed, I recall seeing a split screen video when NBA analysts were making the MJ/Kobe comparison - at 23, let me remind you - and it was showing Kobe and MJ making the exact same mid range moves. Thus, unless you think Kobe Bryant is basketball stunted or lazy, how can you continue to argue that MJ's mid-range game is so superior, when you know this kid (a) already had a superb mid-range game at 23, and (b) has relentlessly worked on improving every facet of his game? |
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Voice Of Reason
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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The funniest thing about these Jordan/Kobe comparison threads is how people try to pass off the 80s like it's a totally different game. yeah, teams fastbreaked more. We're always comparing the 80s and 2000+. What, did the 90s not happen? The game had slowed down significantly, was physical, dirty, refs forgot how to call illegal defense, there was better competition at SG - and Jordan totally dominated that decade.
I'm not saying Jordan > Kobe (though I do think that at this stage), I'm just saying everybody who thinks a span 20 years of basketball can somehow be totally incomparable are lying to themselves. Dude, it's comparable, there's too much overlap.
With continued efforts, and Kobe has definitely made an aggressive step in the right direction this year, he will reach that level.
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Last edited by Voice Of Reason on Tue Mar 07, 2006 4:05 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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BraveHeartII
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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Well, when a guy like Kobe works as hard on his game as Kobe does, you know he's going to be pretty good. IMO, his drive to win is probably 2x of that of Jordan(obviously, some of it is because of Shaq, but also some of it because he wanted to prove that he has a drive to win even more than Jordan.) Jordan relied on his quickness a lot, I don't think he ever really practiced on his jumper "that much," until he became a Wizard(when clearly you could tell that he must have practiced on his jumper a lot to shoot it like that at that age.)
Also, I don't think people realize how intimidating Kobe's physique is. Chauncey Billups saw Sasha on him and he didn't hesitate to jack up those threes. Yet the moment Kobe was on him, he didn't dare. |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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MJ had to reform his jumpshot midway through his career.
Anyone who watched MJ in UNC and the early Chicago years, wouldn't call that a jumpshot. They'd call that a shotput.
Watch later years and you can see just how much MJ went to develop a real jumpshot.
I really can't watch MJ of his early years. That was ugly form and flat shooting.
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KingKobeDubbz
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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| I mean for all of us who lives in Souther California, Los Angeles county even . We've witness his greatness since his birth in the NBA ten years ago. Seriously he just gets better and better. So improvement in his game anuualy comes at no surprise. |
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LakerJam
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Voice Of Reason wrote: | The funniest thing about these Jordan/Kobe comparison threads is how people try to pass off the 80s like it's a totally different game. yeah, teams fastbreaked more. We're always comparing the 80s and 2000+. What, did the 90s not happen? The game had slowed down significantly, was physical, dirty, refs forgot how to call illegal defense, there was better competition at SG - and Jordan totally dominated that decade.
I'm not saying Jordan > Kobe (though I do think that at this stage), I'm just saying everybody who thinks a span 20 years of basketball can somehow be totally incomparable are lying to themselves. Dude, it's comparable, there's too much overlap.
With continued efforts, and Kobe has definitely made an aggressive step in the right direction this year, he will reach that level. |
Actually, it isn't "WE" who brought that argument into it. The players of past eras are the ones who have said that. In fact, many of them were shocked by Kobe's 81 pts. specifically because they didn't think that would ever be possible "in this era".
As fans, we have our own opinions, but when the actual players point to these things, I have to believe they'd know better than we do. I've yet to hear any legend of the game come close to even implying that the differences in the eras are minute. Most think the eras are drastically different and the emphasis on defense, along with the considerable drop in scoring, supports those differences. |
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puajibai
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Voice Of Reason wrote: | The funniest thing about these Jordan/Kobe comparison threads is how people try to pass off the 80s like it's a totally different game. yeah, teams fastbreaked more. We're always comparing the 80s and 2000+. What, did the 90s not happen? The game had slowed down significantly, was physical, dirty, refs forgot how to call illegal defense, there was better competition at SG - and Jordan totally dominated that decade.
I'm not saying Jordan > Kobe (though I do think that at this stage), I'm just saying everybody who thinks a span 20 years of basketball can somehow be totally incomparable are lying to themselves. Dude, it's comparable, there's too much overlap.
With continued efforts, and Kobe has definitely made an aggressive step in the right direction this year, he will reach that level. |
I dont agree at all that in the 90s before Kobe there was better competition at SG. At that time the elite SGs after Jordan were a declining Clyde, Mitch Richmond, young Penny, etc. In my opinion Tmac, VC, Wade, Ray Allen, Paul Pierce are much more talented physically than those guys. Jordan dominated that decade, true, but he really took over after Magic, Bird, Isiah, etc left the game. Jordan played an efficient game and was truly dangerous because the triangle placed him in his prime scoring areas near the paint. Kobe has dominated much farther away from the basket due to present day rules, defenses, etc- Tex, PJ, AND MJ have said as much. MJ was great no doubt but his legacy is very much a product of media and hype. I believe we are witnessing the most talented individual the game has ever seen in Kobe Bryant. |
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puajibai
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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| o yeah the next time someone brings up the "no hand checking" rule to put down Kobe's 81 just offer the question "What would happen to MJ's defensive dominance if HE couldn't use his hands either?" |
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sodapoppenski
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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Agreed.
There are far better SG/SF's in today's game than when MJ played.
A huge reason for that is MJ himself.
He inspired tons of guards all over the country.
But Clyde and Richmond over T-Mac, Vince, LBJ, Wade, etc?
Gimme a break. |
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Voice Of Reason
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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| sodapoppenski wrote: |
But Clyde and Richmond over T-Mac, Vince, LBJ, Wade, etc?
Gimme a break. |
T-Mac, Vince, LBJ, Wade, etc. over Michael, Nique, Clyde, Isiah, Reggie Miller, Richmond, Reggie Lewis, Dale Ellis, Rice, Dumars, Bird, Magic, Payton, Spree, Derek Harper, The X-Man, Steve Smith, Alex English, Michael Adams, Grant Hill, and whoever the heck else from 85-00?
The top-end scorers of today are great, but the depth sucks. The guys below the Kobes, Wades, Iversons can't hold the jocks of the second-tier scorers of yesteryear. Yet another reason why the 80s and 90s > now in so many fans' eyes.
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David Thorpe: If Lamar Odom was 6'5", he'd be a shoe salesman. If Kevin Garnett was 6'2", he'd be Rajon Rondo.
Henry Abbott: Coach Thorpe, what makes you think Lamar Odom has what it takes to succeed in the competitive world of shoe sales? |
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