Is anyone else still amazed at Kobe's ability to shoot 3's, drive and play from mid-range at an elite level?
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lakers0505
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 5:06 pm    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
Warlord23 wrote:
Impressive. Kobe is leading the NBA in efficiency rating. He's having a career year. Only, I wouldn't call it ground-breaking. Jordan had 9 seasons in his career with a higher efficiency rating. Jordan's career-best efficiency rating (37) is miles ahead of Kobe's season so far (28.0).

Oh Jordan was the more effecient player. No doubt.

But there are players that score more effeciently than Kobe IMO. That's not what I was talking about.

I was talking about his ability to just flat out score the ball anyway he wants to. If the team gets down and we need 3's he will flat out start hitting them. Factor in he is one of the best mid-range players and can drive like a PG.

I don't know. I just have never seen a basketball player as completely skilled as Kobe Bryant in my 15+ years of being a hardcore basketball fan.

Charles Barkley has it totally wrong. The Roger Federer of the NBA is Kobe Bryant. It's not Tim Duncan. The difference is that basketball is a team sport and that you will only win accolades if your team is good enough (not the case in tennis)



However the game of basketball is different now , than it was then. Then scoring over 100 was a regular run off the mill team. I would like too other player efficeny rating compared To M.J, and kobe's compared to other players now for a better indicator.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 5:14 pm    Post subject:

Agreed. Fg% and efficiency ratings or whatever stat is commonly used to compare MJ to Kobe needs to be compared to the league average in order to gauge their true dominance over the nba at that time. MJ was truly dominant starting in the early 90s after his first ring ending after his 6th ring eight years later. We are all just starting to see Kobe at his fullest now that the Lakers are being built around him (and no this time is not built around Kobe's strengths at all) so whatever happens from now until his 35th birthday will determine in my eyes just how great Kobe truly is. I mean comparisons between MJs ENTIRE career/legacy and Kobe's pre-Prime career are already rampant. Just wait until Kobe's run has ended...
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 5:21 pm    Post subject:

LakerJam wrote:
tgf5 wrote:
LakerJam wrote:
tgf5 wrote:
insidepresence wrote:
tgf5 wrote:
MJ scores in every way better than Kobe except Kobe has the advantage in the range. That is about it. But Kobe's career isn't done yet and the difference is not substantial.


Wrong, Kobe's midrange game is already better than MJ's...just about everybody agrees with that


MJ was scoring 20+ PPG not too long ago at 40 years of age. And at 40, you aren't as fast or quick but MJs midrange game is deadly. MJ has a perfected fadeaway where Kobe's sometimes goes away. MJ also always shot around 50%, and even 45% at 40 years of age. Sorry but MJs experience over his entire career easily puts his midrange game above Kobe's.


Kobe's mid range is just as lethal and potent as MJ's ever was. It's a well known truth that Michael was an attack-the-basket type of scorer who didn't even develop a true jump shot until his later years. The fact that Kobe already has that shot, and has had it since his early 20s, is astounding. Thus, unless you're suggesting Kobe hasn't bothered to improve on that area of his game - something that is quite rididulous given Kobe's work ethic - it sounds more like you just need to protect the greatness of Michael Jordan, which isn't necessary. It's okay that Kobe be just as good or better. The world won't collapse if MIchael Jordan doesn't forever stay the G.O.A.T. I promise.


MJ was always an attacker, but he also almost always had a jumpshot, it just wasn't perfected until later and he didn't use it because why take a 18ft jumpshot when you can drive and get a layup?

Kobe is my favourite player and I never liked Jordan, but you have to respect the player who is known as the greatest of all time for now by the majority of basketball fans. Nowhere did I say Kobe hasn't improved, he has, especially from last season to this season.


I absolutely respect MJ's game, but that doesn't mean I have to buy into the silliness that his greatness can never be surpassed. By virtue of human nature, that argument is majorly flawed. Athletes always take what came before them and improve upon it. Always. Every time. The Olympics shows us that every four years. MJ will not remain the G.O.A.T. because players will take what he did and make it better, then add to it. Indeed, Kobe is working on that very thing as his career unfolds - and that's a good thing for basketball.

As to MJ's jump shot, what you're saying is not true. Even his ex-teammates and greats who played against him, acknowledge that MJ didn't develop a reliable jump shot until later when his athleticism started declining a bit. I appreciate your passion and how much you wish to honor the past, but don't fall into the trap of needing to "win" this argument so badly that you can't even be honest. At the end of the day, MJ’s weakness was outside shooting, but so what? He was still the most dominant player of his era. Kobe's weakness isn't in his skills, rather it's been about his decision making. But even that hasn't been a weakness this year.

The reality is that we may well be watching the G.O.A.T. develop in Kobe Bryant. We shouldn't waste it arguing about how the past was better. Let's let Kobe's career at the end of the day tell the story. In the meantime, I don't want to wake up when Kobe is 36 with his best behind him, and having failed to savor every moment of it. I know what I’m seeing and I know I’ve never seen it before.


Exactly. I did that with MJ. I hated the man with everything I had. How dare he think he can surpass Magic. How dare his fans think that he's better than MJ.

Wanna know when it REALLY hit me how damned good MJ was? 1998, Game 6, with some 6 seconds still left on the clock and MJ's arm still stretched in the air.

That was THE moment that it donned on me how damn good he really was. I had spent all those years, just disregarding everything he did, that I didn't get a chance to really appreciate him. I was still a teenager at the time, and I remember thinking to myself, "Damn. He IS the one. He's the man. That was probably the last shot I'll ever see him take...I feel cheated. By my own hate." I remember having chills all over. I was rooting for Malone and Stockton the WHOLE time. But I had chills all over when I realized that was in all likelihood "the end".

Don't let your past faves cloud your judgement, as Jam so eloquently put it. Do your best to remain unbiased. You do NOT want to miss a second of it.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 5:32 pm    Post subject:

puajibai wrote:
Agreed. Fg% and efficiency ratings or whatever stat is commonly used to compare MJ to Kobe needs to be compared to the league average in order to gauge their true dominance over the nba at that time. MJ was truly dominant starting in the early 90s after his first ring ending after his 6th ring eight years later. We are all just starting to see Kobe at his fullest now that the Lakers are being built around him (and no this time is not built around Kobe's strengths at all) so whatever happens from now until his 35th birthday will determine in my eyes just how great Kobe truly is. I mean comparisons between MJs ENTIRE career/legacy and Kobe's pre-Prime career are already rampant. Just wait until Kobe's run has ended...



Great point. Jordan is a finished product. Kobe, despite all he has already accomplished, is still unfolding before our eyes. It's quite a journey we are being taken on. And I, for one, and doing my best to enjoy every minute of it. We are so lucky to see true transcendent greatness come to be once again in a Laker uniform.

And for those not old enough to remember Jordan before the rings, take it from someone who remembers those times. Jordan was lit up in the papers everyday. A gunslinger could never be a champion..blah blah blah. And the same hacks who said those things then would now drink his dirty bath water if he let them. And the irony of it all is Jordan as an individual didn't change his game to win. Winning simply changed the way we saw him.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 5:46 pm    Post subject:

sodapoppenski wrote:
Agreed.

There are far better SG/SF's in today's game than when MJ played.

A huge reason for that is MJ himself.

He inspired tons of guards all over the country.

But Clyde and Richmond over T-Mac, Vince, LBJ, Wade, etc?

Gimme a break.


In general, I wholeheartedly agree with a point you're making here. Players have to surpass MJ because whenever 1 guy raises the bar, human nature demands that guys who comes after, exceed that bar. Has to. That's the way it is and has always been in competitive sports. That's why records are broken each and every year.

As for diminishing the newbies, I don't think that's at all fair. Some of those guys are equal to or better than their predecesors at the same age. Not all, but some. You're just discounting them with a flip of the hand. Believe me, I'm no Wade or LBJ fan, but I likewise do leave the door open for them to be better than those who came before. I don't "expect" it, but it is possible. Physically, they're already stronger, bigger, more athletic - and if they work hard, that athleticism gives them a distinct edge.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 5:48 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
Jordan relied on his quickness a lot, I don't think he ever really practiced on his jumper "that much," until he became a Wizard(when clearly you could tell that he must have practiced on his jumper a lot to shoot it like that at that age.)



That's simply not true. The man's jumper was money during the second threepeat.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 5:48 pm    Post subject:

Heh on NBA TV they showed the game where Jordan had returned from his first retirement (jersey #45) against the Knicks and he was being guarded by Greg Anthony and Derek Harper. Knicks were at the time a great defensive team and their best defenders were greg anthony and derek harper. Compare that to Prince, Bowen, Artest, Hassell, AK 47 etc that guard Kobe throughout the season.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 5:49 pm    Post subject:

hoopschick29 wrote:
puajibai wrote:
Agreed. Fg% and efficiency ratings or whatever stat is commonly used to compare MJ to Kobe needs to be compared to the league average in order to gauge their true dominance over the nba at that time. MJ was truly dominant starting in the early 90s after his first ring ending after his 6th ring eight years later. We are all just starting to see Kobe at his fullest now that the Lakers are being built around him (and no this time is not built around Kobe's strengths at all) so whatever happens from now until his 35th birthday will determine in my eyes just how great Kobe truly is. I mean comparisons between MJs ENTIRE career/legacy and Kobe's pre-Prime career are already rampant. Just wait until Kobe's run has ended...



Great point. Jordan is a finished product. Kobe, despite all he has already accomplished, is still unfolding before our eyes. It's quite a journey we are being taken on. And I, for one, and doing my best to enjoy every minute of it. We are so lucky to see true transcendent greatness come to be once again in a Laker uniform.

And for those not old enough to remember Jordan before the rings, take it from someone who remembers those times. Jordan was lit up in the papers everyday. A gunslinger could never be a champion..blah blah blah. And the same hacks who said those things then would now drink his dirty bath water if he let them. And the irony of it all is Jordan as an individual didn't change his game to win. Winning simply changed the way we saw him.


Excellent post. Love the highlighted part, especially.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 5:59 pm    Post subject:

lakers0505 wrote:
However the game of basketball is different now , than it was then. Then scoring over 100 was a regular run off the mill team. I would like too other player efficeny rating compared To M.J, and kobe's compared to other players now for a better indicator.


EFF 1988-89
Michael Jordan: 36.99
Magic Johnson: 33.31
Charles Barkley: 32.68
Hakeem Olajuwon: 31.02
Clyde Drexler: 28.87
Fat Lever: 27.48
Kevin Johnson: 27.06

EFF 1992-93
Hakeem Olajuwon: 34.73
Charles Barkley: 31.84
Michael Jordan: 31.56
David Robinson: 29.83
Brad Daugherty: 27.28
Patrick Ewing: 26.33
Domnique Wilkins: 25.24

EFF 1995-96
David Robinson: 32.02
Hakeem Olajuwon: 30.18
Michael Jordan: 28.88
Karl Malone: 28.33
Shaquille O'Neal: 27.33
Alonzo Mourning: 27.25
Grant Hill: 25.20

EFF 2002-03
Tim Duncan: 29.94
Tracy McGrady: 28.80
Kobe Bryant: 28.02
Dirk Nowitzki: 27.73
Paul Pierce: 22.91
Jason Kidd: 22.81
Allen Iverson: 20.85


So, aside from a monster season in 1988-89, Jordan hasn't been head and shoulders above his peers in terms of efficiency.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 6:21 pm    Post subject:

LakerJam wrote:
tgf5 wrote:
LakerJam wrote:

I absolutely respect MJ's game, but that doesn't mean I have to buy into the silliness that his greatness can never be surpassed. By virtue of human nature, that argument is majorly flawed. Athletes always take what came before them and improve upon it. Always. Every time. The Olympics shows us that every four years. MJ will not remain the G.O.A.T. because players will take what he did and make it better, then add to it. Indeed, Kobe is working on that very thing as his career unfolds - and that's a good thing for basketball.

As to MJ's jump shot, what you're saying is not true. Even his ex-teammates and greats who played against him, acknowledge that MJ didn't develop a reliable jump shot until later when his athleticism started declining a bit. I appreciate your passion and how much you wish to honor the past, but don't fall into the trap of needing to "win" this argument so badly that you can't even be honest. At the end of the day, MJ’s weakness was outside shooting, but so what? He was still the most dominant player of his era. Kobe's weakness isn't in his skills, rather it's been about his decision making. But even that hasn't been a weakness this year.

The reality is that we may well be watching the G.O.A.T. develop in Kobe Bryant. We shouldn't waste it arguing about how the past was better. Let's let Kobe's career at the end of the day tell the story. In the meantime, I don't want to wake up when Kobe is 36 with his best behind him, and having failed to savor every moment of it. I know what I’m seeing and I know I’ve never seen it before.


Early in his career Jordan was not a good jumpshooter, yes. But Kobe is in his 10th season and in MJs 10th season his jumpshot was there. Was Kobe always a reliable jumpshooter when he came into the league the first few seasons? Probably, but not always either.


Kobe at 23 was already being compared to MJ and it wasn't because of his dunking abilities. He was being compared to MJ because they had the same mid-range game. Indeed, I recall seeing a split screen video when NBA analysts were making the MJ/Kobe comparison - at 23, let me remind you - and it was showing Kobe and MJ making the exact same mid range moves. Thus, unless you think Kobe Bryant is basketball stunted or lazy, how can you continue to argue that MJ's mid-range game is so superior, when you know this kid (a) already had a superb mid-range game at 23, and (b) has relentlessly worked on improving every facet of his game?


So was Vince Carter. So were other players early in their career. So is Dwyane Wade. Comparisons are just similarities between players but it doesn't exactly mean they are better. Being compared for the same midrange game doesn't mean it's better either.

From what others are saying, yes the comparisons are unfair to Kobe because Jordan's career is done and Kobe is only halfway. Yet it seems people think I'm some Jordan Jocker. Well wake up.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 6:34 pm    Post subject:

tgf5 wrote:
LakerJam wrote:
tgf5 wrote:
LakerJam wrote:

I absolutely respect MJ's game, but that doesn't mean I have to buy into the silliness that his greatness can never be surpassed. By virtue of human nature, that argument is majorly flawed. Athletes always take what came before them and improve upon it. Always. Every time. The Olympics shows us that every four years. MJ will not remain the G.O.A.T. because players will take what he did and make it better, then add to it. Indeed, Kobe is working on that very thing as his career unfolds - and that's a good thing for basketball.

As to MJ's jump shot, what you're saying is not true. Even his ex-teammates and greats who played against him, acknowledge that MJ didn't develop a reliable jump shot until later when his athleticism started declining a bit. I appreciate your passion and how much you wish to honor the past, but don't fall into the trap of needing to "win" this argument so badly that you can't even be honest. At the end of the day, MJ’s weakness was outside shooting, but so what? He was still the most dominant player of his era. Kobe's weakness isn't in his skills, rather it's been about his decision making. But even that hasn't been a weakness this year.

The reality is that we may well be watching the G.O.A.T. develop in Kobe Bryant. We shouldn't waste it arguing about how the past was better. Let's let Kobe's career at the end of the day tell the story. In the meantime, I don't want to wake up when Kobe is 36 with his best behind him, and having failed to savor every moment of it. I know what I’m seeing and I know I’ve never seen it before.


Early in his career Jordan was not a good jumpshooter, yes. But Kobe is in his 10th season and in MJs 10th season his jumpshot was there. Was Kobe always a reliable jumpshooter when he came into the league the first few seasons? Probably, but not always either.


Kobe at 23 was already being compared to MJ and it wasn't because of his dunking abilities. He was being compared to MJ because they had the same mid-range game. Indeed, I recall seeing a split screen video when NBA analysts were making the MJ/Kobe comparison - at 23, let me remind you - and it was showing Kobe and MJ making the exact same mid range moves. Thus, unless you think Kobe Bryant is basketball stunted or lazy, how can you continue to argue that MJ's mid-range game is so superior, when you know this kid (a) already had a superb mid-range game at 23, and (b) has relentlessly worked on improving every facet of his game?


So was Vince Carter. So were other players early in their career. So is Dwyane Wade. Comparisons are just similarities between players but it doesn't exactly mean they are better. Being compared for the same midrange game doesn't mean it's better either.

From what others are saying, yes the comparisons are unfair to Kobe because Jordan's career is done and Kobe is only halfway. Yet it seems people think I'm some Jordan Jocker. Well wake up.


But the difference is that Kobe was compared down to every little detail. Wade gets compared cause of his relentless attacking. VC for the dunks. Kobe's overall "floor game" was where the comparisons were made.

That's a 23 yr old Kobe Bryant being compared to the 96-98 Jordan that was the most skilled player in the league. These other guys get compared to the early Jordan who had accomplished nothing. Kobe was being compared to the "winning" Jordan that we all remember.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 6:39 pm    Post subject:

magic_bryant wrote:
tgf5 wrote:
LakerJam wrote:
tgf5 wrote:
LakerJam wrote:

I absolutely respect MJ's game, but that doesn't mean I have to buy into the silliness that his greatness can never be surpassed. By virtue of human nature, that argument is majorly flawed. Athletes always take what came before them and improve upon it. Always. Every time. The Olympics shows us that every four years. MJ will not remain the G.O.A.T. because players will take what he did and make it better, then add to it. Indeed, Kobe is working on that very thing as his career unfolds - and that's a good thing for basketball.

As to MJ's jump shot, what you're saying is not true. Even his ex-teammates and greats who played against him, acknowledge that MJ didn't develop a reliable jump shot until later when his athleticism started declining a bit. I appreciate your passion and how much you wish to honor the past, but don't fall into the trap of needing to "win" this argument so badly that you can't even be honest. At the end of the day, MJ’s weakness was outside shooting, but so what? He was still the most dominant player of his era. Kobe's weakness isn't in his skills, rather it's been about his decision making. But even that hasn't been a weakness this year.

The reality is that we may well be watching the G.O.A.T. develop in Kobe Bryant. We shouldn't waste it arguing about how the past was better. Let's let Kobe's career at the end of the day tell the story. In the meantime, I don't want to wake up when Kobe is 36 with his best behind him, and having failed to savor every moment of it. I know what I’m seeing and I know I’ve never seen it before.


Early in his career Jordan was not a good jumpshooter, yes. But Kobe is in his 10th season and in MJs 10th season his jumpshot was there. Was Kobe always a reliable jumpshooter when he came into the league the first few seasons? Probably, but not always either.


Kobe at 23 was already being compared to MJ and it wasn't because of his dunking abilities. He was being compared to MJ because they had the same mid-range game. Indeed, I recall seeing a split screen video when NBA analysts were making the MJ/Kobe comparison - at 23, let me remind you - and it was showing Kobe and MJ making the exact same mid range moves. Thus, unless you think Kobe Bryant is basketball stunted or lazy, how can you continue to argue that MJ's mid-range game is so superior, when you know this kid (a) already had a superb mid-range game at 23, and (b) has relentlessly worked on improving every facet of his game?


So was Vince Carter. So were other players early in their career. So is Dwyane Wade. Comparisons are just similarities between players but it doesn't exactly mean they are better. Being compared for the same midrange game doesn't mean it's better either.

From what others are saying, yes the comparisons are unfair to Kobe because Jordan's career is done and Kobe is only halfway. Yet it seems people think I'm some Jordan Jocker. Well wake up.


But the difference is that Kobe was compared down to every little detail. Wade gets compared cause of his relentless attacking. VC for the dunks. Kobe's overall "floor game" was where the comparisons were made.

That's a 23 yr old Kobe Bryant being compared to the 96-98 Jordan that was the most skilled player in the league. These other guys get compared to the early Jordan who had accomplished nothing. Kobe was being compared to the "winning" Jordan that we all remember.


True, yet that doesn't exactly mean being compared will mean he is equal or better.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 6:42 pm    Post subject:

tgf5 wrote:
magic_bryant wrote:
tgf5 wrote:
LakerJam wrote:
tgf5 wrote:
LakerJam wrote:

I absolutely respect MJ's game, but that doesn't mean I have to buy into the silliness that his greatness can never be surpassed. By virtue of human nature, that argument is majorly flawed. Athletes always take what came before them and improve upon it. Always. Every time. The Olympics shows us that every four years. MJ will not remain the G.O.A.T. because players will take what he did and make it better, then add to it. Indeed, Kobe is working on that very thing as his career unfolds - and that's a good thing for basketball.

As to MJ's jump shot, what you're saying is not true. Even his ex-teammates and greats who played against him, acknowledge that MJ didn't develop a reliable jump shot until later when his athleticism started declining a bit. I appreciate your passion and how much you wish to honor the past, but don't fall into the trap of needing to "win" this argument so badly that you can't even be honest. At the end of the day, MJ’s weakness was outside shooting, but so what? He was still the most dominant player of his era. Kobe's weakness isn't in his skills, rather it's been about his decision making. But even that hasn't been a weakness this year.

The reality is that we may well be watching the G.O.A.T. develop in Kobe Bryant. We shouldn't waste it arguing about how the past was better. Let's let Kobe's career at the end of the day tell the story. In the meantime, I don't want to wake up when Kobe is 36 with his best behind him, and having failed to savor every moment of it. I know what I’m seeing and I know I’ve never seen it before.


Early in his career Jordan was not a good jumpshooter, yes. But Kobe is in his 10th season and in MJs 10th season his jumpshot was there. Was Kobe always a reliable jumpshooter when he came into the league the first few seasons? Probably, but not always either.


Kobe at 23 was already being compared to MJ and it wasn't because of his dunking abilities. He was being compared to MJ because they had the same mid-range game. Indeed, I recall seeing a split screen video when NBA analysts were making the MJ/Kobe comparison - at 23, let me remind you - and it was showing Kobe and MJ making the exact same mid range moves. Thus, unless you think Kobe Bryant is basketball stunted or lazy, how can you continue to argue that MJ's mid-range game is so superior, when you know this kid (a) already had a superb mid-range game at 23, and (b) has relentlessly worked on improving every facet of his game?


So was Vince Carter. So were other players early in their career. So is Dwyane Wade. Comparisons are just similarities between players but it doesn't exactly mean they are better. Being compared for the same midrange game doesn't mean it's better either.

From what others are saying, yes the comparisons are unfair to Kobe because Jordan's career is done and Kobe is only halfway. Yet it seems people think I'm some Jordan Jocker. Well wake up.


But the difference is that Kobe was compared down to every little detail. Wade gets compared cause of his relentless attacking. VC for the dunks. Kobe's overall "floor game" was where the comparisons were made.

That's a 23 yr old Kobe Bryant being compared to the 96-98 Jordan that was the most skilled player in the league. These other guys get compared to the early Jordan who had accomplished nothing. Kobe was being compared to the "winning" Jordan that we all remember.


True, yet that doesn't exactly mean being compared will mean he is equal or better.


No but it says a GREAT deal.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 7:26 pm    Post subject:

shnjb wrote:
Yes
But I would rejoice a lot more if he were shooting 46+ % though.



That 1 percentage point is the reason huh
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 7:58 pm    Post subject:

OdomX2 wrote:
shnjb wrote:
Yes
But I would rejoice a lot more if he were shooting 46+ % though.



That 1 percentage point is the reason huh


Yep that one precent makes a huge difference! :roll:
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 9:07 pm    Post subject:

^Yea, that's one thing that has always irritated me. The difference between 44.8% and 46%, in Kobe's case, is 0.282 more shots made. I wish people would stop harping about something so minor.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 9:58 pm    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
Warlord23 wrote:
Impressive. Kobe is leading the NBA in efficiency rating. He's having a career year. Only, I wouldn't call it ground-breaking. Jordan had 9 seasons in his career with a higher efficiency rating. Jordan's career-best efficiency rating (37) is miles ahead of Kobe's season so far (28.0).

Oh Jordan was the more effecient player. No doubt.

But there are players that score more effeciently than Kobe IMO. That's not what I was talking about.

I was talking about his ability to just flat out score the ball anyway he wants to. If the team gets down and we need 3's he will flat out start hitting them. Factor in he is one of the best mid-range players and can drive like a PG.

I don't know. I just have never seen a basketball player as completely skilled as Kobe Bryant in my 15+ years of being a hardcore basketball fan.

Charles Barkley has it totally wrong. The Roger Federer of the NBA is Kobe Bryant. It's not Tim Duncan. The difference is that basketball is a team sport and that you will only win accolades if your team is good enough (not the case in tennis)

as you stated, you can only compare him to the 90's guys. I've seen tap of the 70's early 80's, but i remember the mid to late 80's and all the 90's. I will say this. When you watch kobe, its like watching a machine. I'm serious. I'm not saying that just as fan. I'm saying that as a guy who loved to actually play basketball, and watch it very closely.

see i will go as far as to tell you to watch how Superiour is foot work is to everyone else out there. The reason the guy can post people up and make BIGMEN Hakeem type of post moves, is because his foot work is as good as your favorite bigman.

let me hit you with this. from watching him and others. I have come to a conclusion that footwork is half the battle for any player trying to score. if you dont have it. or you dont have it to a certain degree, no matter what you think you want to do, you will not be able to do it with the same balance. therefore your shot will be slightly off All the time, when making that move. Kobe on the other hand. has practiced these moves and balancing moves. its to the point where, if he chooses to do something, he can do it. no matter what it is in his mind. If its physically possible. he can and will do that move before the years up. its that crazy. because of his balance. is remarkable.

I seen Mjay, but I also saw Mjay over power alot of weaker shorter guards, or Jumping clearly over guys to get his shot off. the guy would jump SKY high, then balance, then hit the big shot. Kobe jumps a few inches off the ground in darn near perfect balance no matter how weird the shot is. thats just crazy. if you play ball or has a friend who plays ball. watch his/her feet. the people that have a better chance at succeeding are those that can do all kinds of things without losing balance (spin, drop step, crossover then spin, between the legs fake, then back, then go, etc.)
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:54 am    Post subject:

tgf5 wrote:
LakerJam wrote:
tgf5 wrote:
LakerJam wrote:

I absolutely respect MJ's game, but that doesn't mean I have to buy into the silliness that his greatness can never be surpassed. By virtue of human nature, that argument is majorly flawed. Athletes always take what came before them and improve upon it. Always. Every time. The Olympics shows us that every four years. MJ will not remain the G.O.A.T. because players will take what he did and make it better, then add to it. Indeed, Kobe is working on that very thing as his career unfolds - and that's a good thing for basketball.

As to MJ's jump shot, what you're saying is not true. Even his ex-teammates and greats who played against him, acknowledge that MJ didn't develop a reliable jump shot until later when his athleticism started declining a bit. I appreciate your passion and how much you wish to honor the past, but don't fall into the trap of needing to "win" this argument so badly that you can't even be honest. At the end of the day, MJ’s weakness was outside shooting, but so what? He was still the most dominant player of his era. Kobe's weakness isn't in his skills, rather it's been about his decision making. But even that hasn't been a weakness this year.

The reality is that we may well be watching the G.O.A.T. develop in Kobe Bryant. We shouldn't waste it arguing about how the past was better. Let's let Kobe's career at the end of the day tell the story. In the meantime, I don't want to wake up when Kobe is 36 with his best behind him, and having failed to savor every moment of it. I know what I’m seeing and I know I’ve never seen it before.


Early in his career Jordan was not a good jumpshooter, yes. But Kobe is in his 10th season and in MJs 10th season his jumpshot was there. Was Kobe always a reliable jumpshooter when he came into the league the first few seasons? Probably, but not always either.


Kobe at 23 was already being compared to MJ and it wasn't because of his dunking abilities. He was being compared to MJ because they had the same mid-range game. Indeed, I recall seeing a split screen video when NBA analysts were making the MJ/Kobe comparison - at 23, let me remind you - and it was showing Kobe and MJ making the exact same mid range moves. Thus, unless you think Kobe Bryant is basketball stunted or lazy, how can you continue to argue that MJ's mid-range game is so superior, when you know this kid (a) already had a superb mid-range game at 23, and (b) has relentlessly worked on improving every facet of his game?


So was Vince Carter. So were other players early in their career. So is Dwyane Wade. Comparisons are just similarities between players but it doesn't exactly mean they are better. Being compared for the same midrange game doesn't mean it's better either.

From what others are saying, yes the comparisons are unfair to Kobe because Jordan's career is done and Kobe is only halfway. Yet it seems people think I'm some Jordan Jocker. Well wake up.


Those comparisons are made in terms of what those players were initially looking like. Vince Carter was being compared because of his explosive dunking abilities, that's all. He didn't continue to work on his game, thus, the comparison died. Wade is being compared to MJ because his game is all about attacking the hoop like MJ use to, without having a reliable outside shot shot - just like MJ. If he never adds to his game, those comparisons will die. If he does, we'll see if they continue to compare.

As for Kobe, his all around game, his fadeaways, his killer instinct, his mid-range game - those were all being compared to a full MJ career - only Kobe was still in his early 20s when people really started seeing that they had very similer skill levels and game on the court. It wasn't just about "projecting" the similiarites, but realizing them in actuality. In fact, players who played with MJ or competed against him, were already saying that Kobe had all the same moves as MJ, only that was over 4 years ago. Considering Kobe relentlessly works on his game, it's absolutely silly for anyone to hold Jordan up so high, that despite the similiarities years ago between both their mid-range games, you still argue that MJ's mid-range game is still so superior. Why, because it's Michae Jordan? If they were close 4 years ago and given how hard Kobe works, I'm not buying that bs that there's still all these secrets to the mid-range game that Kobe doesn't yet know, and thus he remains mysteriously inferior.

Kobe Bryant isn't offensively inferior to anyone, including Michael Jordan. There is no weakness in Kobe's game from anywhere on the court, except for maybe decision making - but even that's dramatically improved this year.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:59 am    Post subject:

LakerJam wrote:

As for Kobe, his all around game, his fadeaways, his killer instinct, his mid-range game - those were all being compared to a full MJ career - only Kobe was still in his early 20s when people really started seeing that they had very similer skill levels and game on the court. It wasn't just about "projecting" the similiarites, but realizing them in actuality. In fact, players who played with MJ or competed against him, were already saying that Kobe had all the same moves as MJ, only that was over 4 years ago. Considering Kobe relentlessly works on his game, it's absolutely silly for anyone to hold Jordan up so high, that despite the similiarities years ago between both their mid-range games, you still argue that MJ's mid-range game is still so superior. Why, because it's Michae Jordan? If they were close 4 years ago and given how hard Kobe works, I'm not buying that bs that there's still all these secrets to the mid-range game that Kobe doesn't yet know, and thus he remains mysteriously inferior.

Kobe Bryant isn't offensively inferior to anyone, including Michael Jordan. There is no weakness in Kobe's game from anywhere on the court, except for maybe decision making - but even that's dramatically improved this year.


So instead of continually praising Kobe, how about finding a way to bring down Jordan's game? If you compare the games, it still doesn't mean Kobe is automatically above.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:16 am    Post subject:

Once Kobe develops that "Ref/Stern love" Jordan was so good at, Kobe will shatter every legend there was/is in the game. Being the tireless worker that he is, I'm sure he'll work on that this coming off-season.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:22 am    Post subject:

tgf5 wrote:

Early in his career Jordan was not a good jumpshooter, yes. But Kobe is in his 10th season and in MJs 10th season his jumpshot was there. Was Kobe always a reliable jumpshooter when he came into the league the first few seasons? Probably, but not always either.


You better watch some Kobe vids then...sounds like you missed a lot of Kobe during his early days. Kobe had a lethal fadeway as early as 1999-2000, or even earlier (reason why I wanted him back to his normal 215-220 lbs weight, which he is reportedly at right now). See vintage Bryant version 2000-2001 - breathtaking.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:28 am    Post subject:

Drifts wrote:
tgf5 wrote:

Early in his career Jordan was not a good jumpshooter, yes. But Kobe is in his 10th season and in MJs 10th season his jumpshot was there. Was Kobe always a reliable jumpshooter when he came into the league the first few seasons? Probably, but not always either.


You better watch some Kobe vids then...sounds like you missed a lot of Kobe during his early days. Kobe had a lethal fadeway as early as 1999-2000, or even earlier (reason why I wanted him back to his normal 215-220 lbs weight, which he is reportedly at right now). See vintage Bryant version 2000-2001 - breathtaking.


4th season. I said first few seasons. First few seasons he was all out attacker with the occasional jumpshot but oftentimes missed. And his fadeaway WASN'T lethal, it was good. Now it is lethal. It was even a pure fadeaway, it was a turnaround jumpshot.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:31 am    Post subject:

tgf5 wrote:
Drifts wrote:
tgf5 wrote:

Early in his career Jordan was not a good jumpshooter, yes. But Kobe is in his 10th season and in MJs 10th season his jumpshot was there. Was Kobe always a reliable jumpshooter when he came into the league the first few seasons? Probably, but not always either.


You better watch some Kobe vids then...sounds like you missed a lot of Kobe during his early days. Kobe had a lethal fadeway as early as 1999-2000, or even earlier (reason why I wanted him back to his normal 215-220 lbs weight, which he is reportedly at right now). See vintage Bryant version 2000-2001 - breathtaking.


4th season. I said first few seasons. First few seasons he was all out attacker with the occasional jumpshot but oftentimes missed. And his fadeaway WASN'T lethal, it was good. Now it is lethal. It was even a pure fadeaway, it was a turnaround jumpshot.


then that confirms what I suspected that you definitely missed a lot of Kobe...I rest my case.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:35 am    Post subject:

Drifts wrote:
tgf5 wrote:
Drifts wrote:
tgf5 wrote:

Early in his career Jordan was not a good jumpshooter, yes. But Kobe is in his 10th season and in MJs 10th season his jumpshot was there. Was Kobe always a reliable jumpshooter when he came into the league the first few seasons? Probably, but not always either.


You better watch some Kobe vids then...sounds like you missed a lot of Kobe during his early days. Kobe had a lethal fadeway as early as 1999-2000, or even earlier (reason why I wanted him back to his normal 215-220 lbs weight, which he is reportedly at right now). See vintage Bryant version 2000-2001 - breathtaking.


4th season. I said first few seasons. First few seasons he was all out attacker with the occasional jumpshot but oftentimes missed. And his fadeaway WASN'T lethal, it was good. Now it is lethal. It was even a pure fadeaway, it was a turnaround jumpshot.


then that confirms what I suspected that you definitely missed a lot of Kobe...I rest my case.


It wasn't lethal early in the season. That's when it started to develop and really didn't come until the playoffs. But like I said you can't seem to see the difference between an actual fadeaway and a turnaround jumpshot. You rest your case because that's all you got.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:50 am    Post subject:

tgf5 wrote:
Drifts wrote:
tgf5 wrote:
Drifts wrote:
tgf5 wrote:


Early in his career Jordan was not a good jumpshooter, yes. But Kobe is in his 10th season and in MJs 10th season his jumpshot was there. Was Kobe always a reliable jumpshooter when he came into the league the first few seasons? Probably, but not always either.


You better watch some Kobe vids then...sounds like you missed a lot of Kobe during his early days. Kobe had a lethal fadeway as early as 1999-2000, or even earlier (reason why I wanted him back to his normal 215-220 lbs weight, which he is reportedly at right now). See vintage Bryant version 2000-2001 - breathtaking.


4th season. I said first few seasons. First few seasons he was all out attacker with the occasional jumpshot but oftentimes missed. And his fadeaway WASN'T lethal, it was good. Now it is lethal. It was even a pure fadeaway, it was a turnaround jumpshot.


then that confirms what I suspected that you definitely missed a lot of Kobe...I rest my case.


It wasn't lethal early in the season. That's when it started to develop and really didn't come until the playoffs. But like I said you can't seem to see the difference between an actual fadeaway and a turnaround jumpshot. You rest your case because that's all you got.


are you kidding me?
you're sinking faster than the Titanic, watch Kobe circa 2000-2001. You obviously missed a lot of him back then.

Turn around jumpshots? Who the hell brought that in? You're putting stuff out with no bearing to the topic. As I said, Kobe's fadeaways were lethal (yes I mean to say fadeaways, which technically are called jumpshots, and depending on how they're taken can also be called turnaround fadeways, or simply turnaround jumpshots).

Just to satisfy you, YES, Kobe's straight up "turnaround jumpshots" were also lethal, of course he normally takes these types of shots when he's free or guarded by smaller guys. But when going up against taller guys or guys his size, Kobe normally shoots those things called "turnaround fadeaways" (geezz, I'm surprised I have to explain these things, but my pleasure nonetheless ...) Just from the top of my head, Finals 2001, 3rd quarter, games 3 (or 4), Kobe hits around 5 consecutive contested fadeways over Mckie (I think).

Again, you obviously missed a lot of Kobe.
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Last edited by Drifts on Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:51 am; edited 1 time in total
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