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Addicus
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Joined: 02 Sep 2005
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Location: Dave's Pimp Palace
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 Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:51 am Post subject: |
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| Warlord23 wrote: | | Impressive. Kobe is leading the NBA in efficiency rating. He's having a career year. Only, I wouldn't call it ground-breaking. Jordan had 9 seasons in his career with a higher efficiency rating. Jordan's career-best efficiency rating (37) is miles ahead of Kobe's season so far (28.0). |
I would like to see Kobe get to post up like MJ. I hate the damn rules about the zone and doubling a man before he has the ball.
Even MJ would not have been as effective if this happened. Truthfully it is what the Pistons used to do to him with the Jordan rules and we all know how hard he struggled against them.
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jbone2308
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:55 am Post subject: |
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This is a good post because I analyze Kobes game constantly. Jordan was and still is my #1 as Kobe is my current and Lebron is 3rd. I watched Jordan since '89 but have done my homework by adding games as early as his rookie year to my collection.
You have to get with gurus of the game to really have a meaningful discussion of the differences of the game now and in other eras. It was like that when Jordan played. I believe team defense is weaker, but one on one defense is superior. I say it's superior in certain guys like Artest, Bowen, Prince, Iggy, Kobe, and others because of how athletic each player is these days. The average player is a gym rat compared to the average back in the days. Even the superior workers like Magic, Bird, Dr J, and others didn't work as hard as Jordan. Even Jordan didn't get really started until he was getting beat up by Detroit.
Kobe is unreal. Yes it's cliche to say things like that but seriously examine the total offensive skill Kobe has. He can do everything with a basketball. I remember when everybody would say this about Jordan, but Kobes skill with the ball is better. Not saying he can score better or is more efficient but just from dribbling, passing, range, and midrange Kobe is above him. Now finishing Jordan will always be better than Kobe at the rim because purely his hands. When you can palm the ball like a grapefruit it's not getting stripped as much and throw downs and crazy layups are finished more often.
This is another thing that made Kobe so great. Kobe was dunkin on heads by cuffing the ball because he couldn't palm it on call. Kobe has taken Jordans game and extended some areas. His shot creation is simply that his creation. Sometimes you can see Jordan doing the exact move but at times you see something totally different in Kobe. Same with the dunks, ask Sprewell and Yarbourogh.
Last point. If Kobe is able to get his efficiency up to where he's hitting 52% on the regular which lately hes' been dang close, he'll average 40+ a game and he'll show again he's the most prolific shooting guard ever. Kobe can pass Jordan and probably will but this will have to continue till he's done. He's showing signs of possibly being the most prolific scorer ever and that includes Wilt with the 81, the streaks of 40, and games of putting highs in a quarter and halves. We just got to sit back and continue to watch greatness. Jordan said there is someone out there that will be better, that is working and busting his butt at an early age. Could Kobe have been that kid? |
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uberzev
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Joined: 25 Jan 2002
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:55 am Post subject: |
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Does anyone think Kobe will have a season where he averages 30+ points on 50%+ fg?
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tgf5
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Joined: 18 Jun 2005
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Location: Canada
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:58 am Post subject: |
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| Drifts wrote: | are you kidding me?
you're sinking faster than the Titanic, watch Kobe circa 2000-2001. You obviously missed a lot of him back then.
Turn around jumpshots? Who the hell brought that in? You're putting stuff out with no bearing to the topic. As I said, Kobe's fadeaways were lethal (yes I mean to say fadeaways, which technically are called jumpshots, and depending on how they're taken can also be called turnaround fadeways, or simply turnaround jumpshots).
Just to satisfy you, YES, Kobe's straight up "turnaround jumpshots" were also lethal, of course he normally takes these types of shots when he's free or guarded by smaller guys. But when going up against taller guys or guys his size, Kobe normally shoots those things called "turnaround fadeaways" (geezz, I'm surprised I have to explain these things, but my pleasure nonetheless  ...) Just from the top of my head, Finals 2001, 3rd quarter, games 3 (or 4), Kobe hits around 5 consecutive contested fadeways over Mckie (I think).
Again, you obviously missed a lot of Kobe. |
Kobe didn't have a FADEAWAY shot. He was a turnaround jumpshooter. Kobe probably hit 1 of 3-4 fadeaway shots then. Now he is hitting 3 of 4. You're maybe it out like Kobe was some God back then. If he had it then, what the hell has he been working on? Now he is actually jumping and fading. Maybe you should get some videos and prove it. Or how about watching some of Lakeshow09 vids of playoff series or old Kobe? Most of them are attacking the baskets, 3s, or straight up jumpers in the face. Kobe was skinny small first few seasons and was quick as hell attacking the basket.
Your saying Kobe had a lethal (basically perfect) fadeaway with no bearing on yours because really I don't see anything. A turnaround jumpshot has the player fadeaway because of momentum, but when it comes to a fadeaway, you actually propel yourself away from the basket.
Again, about the Mckie 2001 thing. That was 2001. You said 99-00 earlier... And I said Kobe didn't have a fadeaway in his first FEW seasons of his career. The 2001 Finals, he was already in his 5th |
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re4ee
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Joined: 07 Mar 2005
Posts: 12237
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:18 am Post subject: |
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| LakersAlldaWay wrote: | | ^Yea, that's one thing that has always irritated me. The difference between 44.8% and 46%, in Kobe's case, is 0.282 more shots made. I wish people would stop harping about something so minor. |
And to totally ignore when, where and why he's missing those shots is even MORE irritating. The Spur game is a perfect example. Kobe shot the lights out in the 1st, 2nd and 4th quarters, almost all of his misses came in the third, when the rest of his teammates completely retreated from shooting, instead looking to get the ball to Kobe, often with the shot clock very short!
Whenever the Laker opponents go on any sort of significant run, the rest of the Lakers stop shooting. The haters would have you believe that is because Kobe is forcing them to get him the ball, but that is just idiotic. Watch the damned games! It's painfully obvious that the rest of the team use Kobe as a crutch each and every time the game even remotely looks to be slipping away! |
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re4ee
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Joined: 07 Mar 2005
Posts: 12237
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:31 am Post subject: |
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| jbone2308 wrote: | This is a good post because I analyze Kobes game constantly. Jordan was and still is my #1 as Kobe is my current and Lebron is 3rd. I watched Jordan since '89 but have done my homework by adding games as early as his rookie year to my collection.
You have to get with gurus of the game to really have a meaningful discussion of the differences of the game now and in other eras. It was like that when Jordan played. I believe team defense is weaker, but one on one defense is superior. I say it's superior in certain guys like Artest, Bowen, Prince, Iggy, Kobe, and others because of how athletic each player is these days. The average player is a gym rat compared to the average back in the days. Even the superior workers like Magic, Bird, Dr J, and others didn't work as hard as Jordan. Even Jordan didn't get really started until he was getting beat up by Detroit.
Kobe is unreal. Yes it's cliche to say things like that but seriously examine the total offensive skill Kobe has. He can do everything with a basketball. I remember when everybody would say this about Jordan, but Kobes skill with the ball is better. Not saying he can score better or is more efficient but just from dribbling, passing, range, and midrange Kobe is above him. Now finishing Jordan will always be better than Kobe at the rim because purely his hands. When you can palm the ball like a grapefruit it's not getting stripped as much and throw downs and crazy layups are finished more often.
This is another thing that made Kobe so great. Kobe was dunkin on heads by cuffing the ball because he couldn't palm it on call. Kobe has taken Jordans game and extended some areas. His shot creation is simply that his creation. Sometimes you can see Jordan doing the exact move but at times you see something totally different in Kobe. Same with the dunks, ask Sprewell and Yarbourogh.
Last point. If Kobe is able to get his efficiency up to where he's hitting 52% on the regular which lately hes' been dang close, he'll average 40+ a game and he'll show again he's the most prolific shooting guard ever. Kobe can pass Jordan and probably will but this will have to continue till he's done. He's showing signs of possibly being the most prolific scorer ever and that includes Wilt with the 81, the streaks of 40, and games of putting highs in a quarter and halves. We just got to sit back and continue to watch greatness. Jordan said there is someone out there that will be better, that is working and busting his butt at an early age. Could Kobe have been that kid? |
Most intellegent BBall gurus will agree that the talent is much more diluted now than ever before in NBA history. So Kobe has to face defenses that are able to totally focus on stopping just him when they play the Lakers now. He doesn't have a Pippen, Ho Grant, or any of those 3pt shooters to open things up for him.
Also, try getting to the rim against a zone defense, where your teammates can't even delay their assigned man by drawing him away from the paint
 Eh,.... Could be!*
*thanks Bugs |
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tgf5
Franchise Player
Joined: 18 Jun 2005
Posts: 11581
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:57 am Post subject: |
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| re4ee wrote: | | jbone2308 wrote: | This is a good post because I analyze Kobes game constantly. Jordan was and still is my #1 as Kobe is my current and Lebron is 3rd. I watched Jordan since '89 but have done my homework by adding games as early as his rookie year to my collection.
You have to get with gurus of the game to really have a meaningful discussion of the differences of the game now and in other eras. It was like that when Jordan played. I believe team defense is weaker, but one on one defense is superior. I say it's superior in certain guys like Artest, Bowen, Prince, Iggy, Kobe, and others because of how athletic each player is these days. The average player is a gym rat compared to the average back in the days. Even the superior workers like Magic, Bird, Dr J, and others didn't work as hard as Jordan. Even Jordan didn't get really started until he was getting beat up by Detroit.
Kobe is unreal. Yes it's cliche to say things like that but seriously examine the total offensive skill Kobe has. He can do everything with a basketball. I remember when everybody would say this about Jordan, but Kobes skill with the ball is better. Not saying he can score better or is more efficient but just from dribbling, passing, range, and midrange Kobe is above him. Now finishing Jordan will always be better than Kobe at the rim because purely his hands. When you can palm the ball like a grapefruit it's not getting stripped as much and throw downs and crazy layups are finished more often.
This is another thing that made Kobe so great. Kobe was dunkin on heads by cuffing the ball because he couldn't palm it on call. Kobe has taken Jordans game and extended some areas. His shot creation is simply that his creation. Sometimes you can see Jordan doing the exact move but at times you see something totally different in Kobe. Same with the dunks, ask Sprewell and Yarbourogh.
Last point. If Kobe is able to get his efficiency up to where he's hitting 52% on the regular which lately hes' been dang close, he'll average 40+ a game and he'll show again he's the most prolific shooting guard ever. Kobe can pass Jordan and probably will but this will have to continue till he's done. He's showing signs of possibly being the most prolific scorer ever and that includes Wilt with the 81, the streaks of 40, and games of putting highs in a quarter and halves. We just got to sit back and continue to watch greatness. Jordan said there is someone out there that will be better, that is working and busting his butt at an early age. Could Kobe have been that kid? |
Most intellegent BBall gurus will agree that the talent is much more diluted now than ever before in NBA history. So Kobe has to face defenses that are able to totally focus on stopping just him when they play the Lakers now. He doesn't have a Pippen, Ho Grant, or any of those 3pt shooters to open things up for him.
Also, try getting to the rim against a zone defense, where your teammates can't even delay their assigned man by drawing him away from the paint
Eh,.... Could be!*
*thanks Bugs |
Try getting to the rim with physical defense. |
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LakerJam
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Joined: 02 Aug 2002
Posts: 18410
Location: Sherman Oaks, CA
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:13 am Post subject: |
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| tgf5 wrote: | | LakerJam wrote: |
As for Kobe, his all around game, his fadeaways, his killer instinct, his mid-range game - those were all being compared to a full MJ career - only Kobe was still in his early 20s when people really started seeing that they had very similer skill levels and game on the court. It wasn't just about "projecting" the similiarites, but realizing them in actuality. In fact, players who played with MJ or competed against him, were already saying that Kobe had all the same moves as MJ, only that was over 4 years ago. Considering Kobe relentlessly works on his game, it's absolutely silly for anyone to hold Jordan up so high, that despite the similiarities years ago between both their mid-range games, you still argue that MJ's mid-range game is still so superior. Why, because it's Michae Jordan? If they were close 4 years ago and given how hard Kobe works, I'm not buying that bs that there's still all these secrets to the mid-range game that Kobe doesn't yet know, and thus he remains mysteriously inferior.
Kobe Bryant isn't offensively inferior to anyone, including Michael Jordan. There is no weakness in Kobe's game from anywhere on the court, except for maybe decision making - but even that's dramatically improved this year. |
So instead of continually praising Kobe, how about finding a way to bring down Jordan's game? If you compare the games, it still doesn't mean Kobe is automatically above. |
I'm not "bringing Michael Jordan's game down" just because I think Kobe Bryant has a better offensive arsenal. Are you saying that if Kobe Bryant is praised for having possibly the greatest offensive game we've seen to date, that it's somehow an insult to Michael Jordan? What, is only MJ capable of developing skills to the highest level so that anyone after him will always be lesser than?
That's a silly argument. Michael Jordan doesn't hold the rights to having the most complete floor game on the planet or throughout NBA history. Indeed, he didn't have a complete floor game in the sense that his range was not elite.
While I do believe Kobe has a better offensive game than MJ, the comparison of who is better cannot yet be made because it still comes down to winning. Kobe has to win more titles period, but if he does that, then yes, I'll believe that he's better because his skills in terms of having them anywhere on the court, are already better. If he doesn't win more titles, then MJ remains the man.
Ultimately, it's always about winning because you can have all the skills in the world, but you have to also master the intangibles - decision making, will to win, clutch-factor - necessary to apply those skills in such a way that it leads to winning titles. When it comes to all of it combined, clearly MJ still walks alone. Only when Kobe wins more rings can the discussion really count, but it's no friggin insult to MJ that Kobe is other-worldly or superior in some aspects of the game; and if you seriously think that way, then why bother watching basketball because you've already decided that the best that will ever be is in the past? |
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LakerJam
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Joined: 02 Aug 2002
Posts: 18410
Location: Sherman Oaks, CA
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:24 am Post subject: |
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| tgf5 wrote: | | Drifts wrote: | | tgf5 wrote: | | Drifts wrote: | | tgf5 wrote: |
Early in his career Jordan was not a good jumpshooter, yes. But Kobe is in his 10th season and in MJs 10th season his jumpshot was there. Was Kobe always a reliable jumpshooter when he came into the league the first few seasons? Probably, but not always either. |
You better watch some Kobe vids then...sounds like you missed a lot of Kobe during his early days. Kobe had a lethal fadeway as early as 1999-2000, or even earlier (reason why I wanted him back to his normal 215-220 lbs weight, which he is reportedly at right now). See vintage Bryant version 2000-2001 - breathtaking. |
4th season. I said first few seasons. First few seasons he was all out attacker with the occasional jumpshot but oftentimes missed. And his fadeaway WASN'T lethal, it was good. Now it is lethal. It was even a pure fadeaway, it was a turnaround jumpshot. |
then that confirms what I suspected that you definitely missed a lot of Kobe...I rest my case. |
It wasn't lethal early in the season. That's when it started to develop and really didn't come until the playoffs. But like I said you can't seem to see the difference between an actual fadeaway and a turnaround jumpshot. You rest your case because that's all you got.  |
I think the point you're missing is that early Kobe already had a jump shot and mid-range game. He didn't just start developing it because his athleticism was declining - he was always working on it, even in high school. In contrast, MJ was more of a relentless attacker to the rim. He didn't start really working on a jump shot until he started declining a bit. It's why later MJ was more dominant than early MJ despite the #s - that and really learning how to win. |
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tgf5
Franchise Player
Joined: 18 Jun 2005
Posts: 11581
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:29 am Post subject: |
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| LakerJam wrote: | | tgf5 wrote: | | LakerJam wrote: |
As for Kobe, his all around game, his fadeaways, his killer instinct, his mid-range game - those were all being compared to a full MJ career - only Kobe was still in his early 20s when people really started seeing that they had very similer skill levels and game on the court. It wasn't just about "projecting" the similiarites, but realizing them in actuality. In fact, players who played with MJ or competed against him, were already saying that Kobe had all the same moves as MJ, only that was over 4 years ago. Considering Kobe relentlessly works on his game, it's absolutely silly for anyone to hold Jordan up so high, that despite the similiarities years ago between both their mid-range games, you still argue that MJ's mid-range game is still so superior. Why, because it's Michae Jordan? If they were close 4 years ago and given how hard Kobe works, I'm not buying that bs that there's still all these secrets to the mid-range game that Kobe doesn't yet know, and thus he remains mysteriously inferior.
Kobe Bryant isn't offensively inferior to anyone, including Michael Jordan. There is no weakness in Kobe's game from anywhere on the court, except for maybe decision making - but even that's dramatically improved this year. |
So instead of continually praising Kobe, how about finding a way to bring down Jordan's game? If you compare the games, it still doesn't mean Kobe is automatically above. |
I'm not "bringing Michael Jordan's game down" just because I think Kobe Bryant has a better offensive arsenal. Are you saying that if Kobe Bryant is praised for having possibly the greatest offensive game we've seen to date, that it's somehow an insult to Michael Jordan? What, is only MJ capable of developing skills to the highest level so that anyone after him will always be lesser than?
That's a silly argument. Michael Jordan doesn't hold the rights to having the most complete floor game on the planet or throughout NBA history. Indeed, he didn't have a complete floor game in the sense that his range was not elite.
While I do believe Kobe has a better offensive game than MJ, the comparison of who is better cannot yet be made because it still comes down to winning. Kobe has to win more titles period, but if he does that, then yes, I'll believe that he's better because his skills in terms of having them anywhere on the court, are already better. If he doesn't win more titles, then MJ remains the man.
Ultimately, it's always about winning because you can have all the skills in the world, but you have to also master the intangibles - decision making, will to win, clutch-factor - necessary to apply those skills in such a way that it leads to winning titles. When it comes to all of it combined, clearly MJ still walks alone. Only when Kobe wins more rings can the discussion really count, but it's no friggin insult to MJ that Kobe is other-worldly or superior in some aspects of the game; and if you seriously think that way, then why bother watching basketball because you've already decided that the best that will ever be is in the past? |
Jordan has the accolades yes, but I don't really care about them. This thread is about their game, and Jordan's is slightly surperior. I don't know why your arguing because Kobe is only halfway done and Jordan we have seen it all. In a couple of years I'll probably change my mind. |
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LakerJam
Franchise Player
Joined: 02 Aug 2002
Posts: 18410
Location: Sherman Oaks, CA
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:38 am Post subject: |
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| tgf5 wrote: | | re4ee wrote: | | jbone2308 wrote: | This is a good post because I analyze Kobes game constantly. Jordan was and still is my #1 as Kobe is my current and Lebron is 3rd. I watched Jordan since '89 but have done my homework by adding games as early as his rookie year to my collection.
You have to get with gurus of the game to really have a meaningful discussion of the differences of the game now and in other eras. It was like that when Jordan played. I believe team defense is weaker, but one on one defense is superior. I say it's superior in certain guys like Artest, Bowen, Prince, Iggy, Kobe, and others because of how athletic each player is these days. The average player is a gym rat compared to the average back in the days. Even the superior workers like Magic, Bird, Dr J, and others didn't work as hard as Jordan. Even Jordan didn't get really started until he was getting beat up by Detroit.
Kobe is unreal. Yes it's cliche to say things like that but seriously examine the total offensive skill Kobe has. He can do everything with a basketball. I remember when everybody would say this about Jordan, but Kobes skill with the ball is better. Not saying he can score better or is more efficient but just from dribbling, passing, range, and midrange Kobe is above him. Now finishing Jordan will always be better than Kobe at the rim because purely his hands. When you can palm the ball like a grapefruit it's not getting stripped as much and throw downs and crazy layups are finished more often.
This is another thing that made Kobe so great. Kobe was dunkin on heads by cuffing the ball because he couldn't palm it on call. Kobe has taken Jordans game and extended some areas. His shot creation is simply that his creation. Sometimes you can see Jordan doing the exact move but at times you see something totally different in Kobe. Same with the dunks, ask Sprewell and Yarbourogh.
Last point. If Kobe is able to get his efficiency up to where he's hitting 52% on the regular which lately hes' been dang close, he'll average 40+ a game and he'll show again he's the most prolific shooting guard ever. Kobe can pass Jordan and probably will but this will have to continue till he's done. He's showing signs of possibly being the most prolific scorer ever and that includes Wilt with the 81, the streaks of 40, and games of putting highs in a quarter and halves. We just got to sit back and continue to watch greatness. Jordan said there is someone out there that will be better, that is working and busting his butt at an early age. Could Kobe have been that kid? |
Most intellegent BBall gurus will agree that the talent is much more diluted now than ever before in NBA history. So Kobe has to face defenses that are able to totally focus on stopping just him when they play the Lakers now. He doesn't have a Pippen, Ho Grant, or any of those 3pt shooters to open things up for him.
Also, try getting to the rim against a zone defense, where your teammates can't even delay their assigned man by drawing him away from the paint
Eh,.... Could be!*
*thanks Bugs |
Try getting to the rim with physical defense. |
A great offensive player will always beat a great defensive player, thus it would still be easier to get to the bucket against 1 physical defender, than it would be to get past 2 or 3 swarming you before you even touch the ball. |
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LakerJam
Franchise Player
Joined: 02 Aug 2002
Posts: 18410
Location: Sherman Oaks, CA
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:45 am Post subject: |
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| tgf5 wrote: | | LakerJam wrote: | | tgf5 wrote: | | LakerJam wrote: |
As for Kobe, his all around game, his fadeaways, his killer instinct, his mid-range game - those were all being compared to a full MJ career - only Kobe was still in his early 20s when people really started seeing that they had very similer skill levels and game on the court. It wasn't just about "projecting" the similiarites, but realizing them in actuality. In fact, players who played with MJ or competed against him, were already saying that Kobe had all the same moves as MJ, only that was over 4 years ago. Considering Kobe relentlessly works on his game, it's absolutely silly for anyone to hold Jordan up so high, that despite the similiarities years ago between both their mid-range games, you still argue that MJ's mid-range game is still so superior. Why, because it's Michae Jordan? If they were close 4 years ago and given how hard Kobe works, I'm not buying that bs that there's still all these secrets to the mid-range game that Kobe doesn't yet know, and thus he remains mysteriously inferior.
Kobe Bryant isn't offensively inferior to anyone, including Michael Jordan. There is no weakness in Kobe's game from anywhere on the court, except for maybe decision making - but even that's dramatically improved this year. |
So instead of continually praising Kobe, how about finding a way to bring down Jordan's game? If you compare the games, it still doesn't mean Kobe is automatically above. |
I'm not "bringing Michael Jordan's game down" just because I think Kobe Bryant has a better offensive arsenal. Are you saying that if Kobe Bryant is praised for having possibly the greatest offensive game we've seen to date, that it's somehow an insult to Michael Jordan? What, is only MJ capable of developing skills to the highest level so that anyone after him will always be lesser than?
That's a silly argument. Michael Jordan doesn't hold the rights to having the most complete floor game on the planet or throughout NBA history. Indeed, he didn't have a complete floor game in the sense that his range was not elite.
While I do believe Kobe has a better offensive game than MJ, the comparison of who is better cannot yet be made because it still comes down to winning. Kobe has to win more titles period, but if he does that, then yes, I'll believe that he's better because his skills in terms of having them anywhere on the court, are already better. If he doesn't win more titles, then MJ remains the man.
Ultimately, it's always about winning because you can have all the skills in the world, but you have to also master the intangibles - decision making, will to win, clutch-factor - necessary to apply those skills in such a way that it leads to winning titles. When it comes to all of it combined, clearly MJ still walks alone. Only when Kobe wins more rings can the discussion really count, but it's no friggin insult to MJ that Kobe is other-worldly or superior in some aspects of the game; and if you seriously think that way, then why bother watching basketball because you've already decided that the best that will ever be is in the past? |
Jordan has the accolades yes, but I don't really care about them. This thread is about their game, and Jordan's is slightly surperior. I don't know why your arguing because Kobe is only halfway done and Jordan we have seen it all. In a couple of years I'll probably change my mind. |
I agree on individual accolades - much of those are really a popularity contest anyway - but I disagree on the winning titles. You have to consider the winning because winning is a direct reflection that a player has the rare intangibles that not every player has. Not every guy is a killer who wants the ball in the clutch - doesn't that count? Not every player gets better under the greatest of pressure - doesn't that count?
Lots of guys in this league will have and have had tons of skills, but almost all of them don't have the intangibles that lead to WINNING. When a guy wins multiple titles, it's no fluke. It's a testament not just to his skills, but to what separates him from the rest - and that most definitely counts. Heck, it's why Barkeley or Malone or Dr. J were never in the discussion of GOAT. They're respected and should be, but they're not in that conversation because they couldn't master how to win, even when they had talent around them. |
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tgf5
Franchise Player
Joined: 18 Jun 2005
Posts: 11581
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerJam wrote: | | tgf5 wrote: | | re4ee wrote: | | jbone2308 wrote: | This is a good post because I analyze Kobes game constantly. Jordan was and still is my #1 as Kobe is my current and Lebron is 3rd. I watched Jordan since '89 but have done my homework by adding games as early as his rookie year to my collection.
You have to get with gurus of the game to really have a meaningful discussion of the differences of the game now and in other eras. It was like that when Jordan played. I believe team defense is weaker, but one on one defense is superior. I say it's superior in certain guys like Artest, Bowen, Prince, Iggy, Kobe, and others because of how athletic each player is these days. The average player is a gym rat compared to the average back in the days. Even the superior workers like Magic, Bird, Dr J, and others didn't work as hard as Jordan. Even Jordan didn't get really started until he was getting beat up by Detroit.
Kobe is unreal. Yes it's cliche to say things like that but seriously examine the total offensive skill Kobe has. He can do everything with a basketball. I remember when everybody would say this about Jordan, but Kobes skill with the ball is better. Not saying he can score better or is more efficient but just from dribbling, passing, range, and midrange Kobe is above him. Now finishing Jordan will always be better than Kobe at the rim because purely his hands. When you can palm the ball like a grapefruit it's not getting stripped as much and throw downs and crazy layups are finished more often.
This is another thing that made Kobe so great. Kobe was dunkin on heads by cuffing the ball because he couldn't palm it on call. Kobe has taken Jordans game and extended some areas. His shot creation is simply that his creation. Sometimes you can see Jordan doing the exact move but at times you see something totally different in Kobe. Same with the dunks, ask Sprewell and Yarbourogh.
Last point. If Kobe is able to get his efficiency up to where he's hitting 52% on the regular which lately hes' been dang close, he'll average 40+ a game and he'll show again he's the most prolific shooting guard ever. Kobe can pass Jordan and probably will but this will have to continue till he's done. He's showing signs of possibly being the most prolific scorer ever and that includes Wilt with the 81, the streaks of 40, and games of putting highs in a quarter and halves. We just got to sit back and continue to watch greatness. Jordan said there is someone out there that will be better, that is working and busting his butt at an early age. Could Kobe have been that kid? |
Most intellegent BBall gurus will agree that the talent is much more diluted now than ever before in NBA history. So Kobe has to face defenses that are able to totally focus on stopping just him when they play the Lakers now. He doesn't have a Pippen, Ho Grant, or any of those 3pt shooters to open things up for him.
Also, try getting to the rim against a zone defense, where your teammates can't even delay their assigned man by drawing him away from the paint
Eh,.... Could be!*
*thanks Bugs |
Try getting to the rim with physical defense. |
A great offensive player will always beat a great defensive player, thus it would still be easier to get to the bucket against 1 physical defender, than it would be to get past 2 or 3 swarming you before you even touch the ball. |
How about the Bad Boys? |
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tgf5
Franchise Player
Joined: 18 Jun 2005
Posts: 11581
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerJam wrote: | | tgf5 wrote: | | LakerJam wrote: | | tgf5 wrote: | | LakerJam wrote: |
As for Kobe, his all around game, his fadeaways, his killer instinct, his mid-range game - those were all being compared to a full MJ career - only Kobe was still in his early 20s when people really started seeing that they had very similer skill levels and game on the court. It wasn't just about "projecting" the similiarites, but realizing them in actuality. In fact, players who played with MJ or competed against him, were already saying that Kobe had all the same moves as MJ, only that was over 4 years ago. Considering Kobe relentlessly works on his game, it's absolutely silly for anyone to hold Jordan up so high, that despite the similiarities years ago between both their mid-range games, you still argue that MJ's mid-range game is still so superior. Why, because it's Michae Jordan? If they were close 4 years ago and given how hard Kobe works, I'm not buying that bs that there's still all these secrets to the mid-range game that Kobe doesn't yet know, and thus he remains mysteriously inferior.
Kobe Bryant isn't offensively inferior to anyone, including Michael Jordan. There is no weakness in Kobe's game from anywhere on the court, except for maybe decision making - but even that's dramatically improved this year. |
So instead of continually praising Kobe, how about finding a way to bring down Jordan's game? If you compare the games, it still doesn't mean Kobe is automatically above. |
I'm not "bringing Michael Jordan's game down" just because I think Kobe Bryant has a better offensive arsenal. Are you saying that if Kobe Bryant is praised for having possibly the greatest offensive game we've seen to date, that it's somehow an insult to Michael Jordan? What, is only MJ capable of developing skills to the highest level so that anyone after him will always be lesser than?
That's a silly argument. Michael Jordan doesn't hold the rights to having the most complete floor game on the planet or throughout NBA history. Indeed, he didn't have a complete floor game in the sense that his range was not elite.
While I do believe Kobe has a better offensive game than MJ, the comparison of who is better cannot yet be made because it still comes down to winning. Kobe has to win more titles period, but if he does that, then yes, I'll believe that he's better because his skills in terms of having them anywhere on the court, are already better. If he doesn't win more titles, then MJ remains the man.
Ultimately, it's always about winning because you can have all the skills in the world, but you have to also master the intangibles - decision making, will to win, clutch-factor - necessary to apply those skills in such a way that it leads to winning titles. When it comes to all of it combined, clearly MJ still walks alone. Only when Kobe wins more rings can the discussion really count, but it's no friggin insult to MJ that Kobe is other-worldly or superior in some aspects of the game; and if you seriously think that way, then why bother watching basketball because you've already decided that the best that will ever be is in the past? |
Jordan has the accolades yes, but I don't really care about them. This thread is about their game, and Jordan's is slightly surperior. I don't know why your arguing because Kobe is only halfway done and Jordan we have seen it all. In a couple of years I'll probably change my mind. |
I agree on individual accolades - much of those are really a popularity contest anyway - but I disagree on the winning titles. You have to consider the winning because winning is a direct reflection that a player has the rare intangibles that not every player has. Not every guy is a killer who wants the ball in the clutch - doesn't that count? Not every player gets better under the greatest of pressure - doesn't that count?
Lots of guys in this league will have and have had tons of skills, but almost all of them don't have the intangibles that lead to WINNING. When a guy wins multiple titles, it's no fluke. It's a testament not just to his skills, but to what separates him from the rest - and that most definitely counts. Heck, it's why Barkeley or Malone or Dr. J were never in the discussion of GOAT. They're respected and should be, but they're not in that conversation because they couldn't master how to win, even when they had talent around them. |
So how does this help your argument of Kobe having a better midrange game than MJ? |
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re4ee
Franchise Player
Joined: 07 Mar 2005
Posts: 12237
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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| tgf5 wrote: | | LakerJam wrote: | | tgf5 wrote: | | re4ee wrote: | | jbone2308 wrote: | This is a good post because I analyze Kobes game constantly. Jordan was and still is my #1 as Kobe is my current and Lebron is 3rd. I watched Jordan since '89 but have done my homework by adding games as early as his rookie year to my collection.
You have to get with gurus of the game to really have a meaningful discussion of the differences of the game now and in other eras. It was like that when Jordan played. I believe team defense is weaker, but one on one defense is superior. I say it's superior in certain guys like Artest, Bowen, Prince, Iggy, Kobe, and others because of how athletic each player is these days. The average player is a gym rat compared to the average back in the days. Even the superior workers like Magic, Bird, Dr J, and others didn't work as hard as Jordan. Even Jordan didn't get really started until he was getting beat up by Detroit.
Kobe is unreal. Yes it's cliche to say things like that but seriously examine the total offensive skill Kobe has. He can do everything with a basketball. I remember when everybody would say this about Jordan, but Kobes skill with the ball is better. Not saying he can score better or is more efficient but just from dribbling, passing, range, and midrange Kobe is above him. Now finishing Jordan will always be better than Kobe at the rim because purely his hands. When you can palm the ball like a grapefruit it's not getting stripped as much and throw downs and crazy layups are finished more often.
This is another thing that made Kobe so great. Kobe was dunkin on heads by cuffing the ball because he couldn't palm it on call. Kobe has taken Jordans game and extended some areas. His shot creation is simply that his creation. Sometimes you can see Jordan doing the exact move but at times you see something totally different in Kobe. Same with the dunks, ask Sprewell and Yarbourogh.
Last point. If Kobe is able to get his efficiency up to where he's hitting 52% on the regular which lately hes' been dang close, he'll average 40+ a game and he'll show again he's the most prolific shooting guard ever. Kobe can pass Jordan and probably will but this will have to continue till he's done. He's showing signs of possibly being the most prolific scorer ever and that includes Wilt with the 81, the streaks of 40, and games of putting highs in a quarter and halves. We just got to sit back and continue to watch greatness. Jordan said there is someone out there that will be better, that is working and busting his butt at an early age. Could Kobe have been that kid? |
Most intellegent BBall gurus will agree that the talent is much more diluted now than ever before in NBA history. So Kobe has to face defenses that are able to totally focus on stopping just him when they play the Lakers now. He doesn't have a Pippen, Ho Grant, or any of those 3pt shooters to open things up for him.
Also, try getting to the rim against a zone defense, where your teammates can't even delay their assigned man by drawing him away from the paint
Eh,.... Could be!*
*thanks Bugs |
Try getting to the rim with physical defense. |
A great offensive player will always beat a great defensive player, thus it would still be easier to get to the bucket against 1 physical defender, than it would be to get past 2 or 3 swarming you before you even touch the ball. |
How about the Bad Boys? |
They still had to stay with reach of the man they were defending, and could double or triple team a player before he got the ball!
If Ho Grant stood out at the sidelines, Salley had to at least appear to be defending him, and couldn't collapse to the paint to double until the ball was passed in. |
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