The Problem with Odom is: Odom or Phil?
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:05 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
We didn't lose that game because of offense.

We just couldn't stop SA in the 2nd half. We tried to clog the paint and reduce penetration lanes through collapsing but that left thier 3 point shooters open - our rotation wasn't as good - they made us pay for that.

Why every game it comes down to this Odom role on offense I do not know. The Lakers scored a lot of points on a good percentage on a team that is the best in the NBA defensively. But they gave up pver 100+ (and 35+ in the 3rd)

That's what they (Phil) needs to be focusing on. How to make this ballclub better defensively.


Yep. Wasn't Odom's fault. You don't play D and give up wide open three after wide open three you are going to lose. If Odom would have scored 20 the Lakers still lose because no defense was being played.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:07 am    Post subject:

dgrynch wrote:
Odom is a veteran player in this league and it is up to him to get his game off.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:11 am    Post subject:

Supa wrote:
If Odom is really trying to get the ball in the post and they refuse get it to him, it's something that can be discussed outside of games and resolved. Just because you see it happen a few times, you can't make the conclusion that everyone else is at fault. If he really wants it, he'd make it known.

Besides, if you noticed, the team sometimes has problems even getting the ball to Kobe when he posts up his man. He always has to come out on the perimeter to get it.
Exactly! Many, many times, Lamar will make the initial pass and just stand around watching. When he gets to the post and takes an inlet, he often passes on taking the shot, and passes the ball out of the post, but doesn't agressively re-post. Which is what is called for in the triangle. When the shot clock is down under 10, and Lamar reluctant to shoot, passing him the ball anywhere is inviting a clock violation.

That is what happens in those runs by Laker opponents, whether the Lakers are losing a lead, or having a lead stretched on them, not only Lamar, but most of the other Lakers get reluctant to shoot, and just look to get the ball to Kobe. While the younger Lakers can be partially excused for that reluctance due to lack of experience, Lamar needs to be more confident, especially when things are not going the Lakers' way.

A lot of commentators, wrongly, attribute these tendencies to a lack of confidence from Kobe towards his teammates, but it is primarily his teammates lack of confidence in themselves!

The Lakers have shown that they can hang with any team in the league, and when it's early in the game, and they are not so reluctant or hesitant to take their shots, anyone with half a brain can see that Kobe has no problem getting them the rock! BUT, when the pressure builds, the Lakers, other than Kobe, George, Cook, and sometimes Mihm, hesitate, and just look for Kobe. Lamar has no excuse for this at all, maybe the addition of Jim Jackson will show him what veteran leadership should look like.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:15 am    Post subject:

re4ee wrote:
Supa wrote:
If Odom is really trying to get the ball in the post and they refuse get it to him, it's something that can be discussed outside of games and resolved. Just because you see it happen a few times, you can't make the conclusion that everyone else is at fault. If he really wants it, he'd make it known.

Besides, if you noticed, the team sometimes has problems even getting the ball to Kobe when he posts up his man. He always has to come out on the perimeter to get it.
Exactly! Many, many times, Lamar will make the initial pass and just stand around watching. When he gets to the post and takes an inlet, he often passes on taking the shot, and passes the ball out of the post, but doesn't agressively re-post. Which is what is called for in the triangle. When the shot clock is down under 10, and Lamar reluctant to shoot, passing him the ball anywhere is inviting a clock violation.

That is what happens in those runs by Laker opponents, whether the Lakers are losing a lead, or having a lead stretched on them, not only Lamar, but most of the other Lakers get reluctant to shoot, and just look to get the ball to Kobe. While the younger Lakers can be partially excused for that reluctance due to lack of experience, Lamar needs to be more confident, especially when things are not going the Lakers' way.

A lot of commentators, wrongly, attribute these tendencies to a lack of confidence from Kobe towards his teammates, but it is primarily his teammates lack of confidence in themselves!

The Lakers have shown that they can hang with any team in the league, and when it's early in the game, and they are not so reluctant or hesitant to take their shots, anyone with half a brain can see that Kobe has no problem getting them the rock! BUT, when the pressure builds, the Lakers, other than Kobe, George, Cook, and sometimes Mihm, hesitate, and just look for Kobe. Lamar has no excuse for this at all, maybe the addition of Jim Jackson will show him what veteran leadership should look like.


Agreed.

As for Jim Jackson...that's if Phil will ever use him. Ever.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:25 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
We didn't lose that game because of offense.

We just couldn't stop SA in the 2nd half. We tried to clog the paint and reduce penetration lanes through collapsing but that left thier 3 point shooters open - our rotation wasn't as good - they made us pay for that.

Why every game it comes down to this Odom role on offense I do not know. The Lakers scored a lot of points on a good percentage on a team that is the best in the NBA defensively. But they gave up pver 100+ (and 35+ in the 3rd)

That's what they (Phil) needs to be focusing on. How to make this ballclub better defensively.
That really isn't always a bad thing.

If you are getting beat inside, sometimes you need to force the opponent to take threes because it is a lower % shot. We can't match the Spurs mano a mano from the top of the roster to the bottom, that's a disadvantage you can't coach away. You have to pick your poison, so to speak, and force them to take a less adventagous attempt.

Because when he doesn't disappear, the Lakers usually win!

That's the short answer, see my previous post regarding the reluctance for most of the Lakers to take their shots when the opponent goes on a run. Some attribute ALL of the disapperances of the other Lakers, in those situations to Kobe "freezing" them out, or Kobe being "selfish" with the ball, which isn't the case at all.

While the Lakers were giving up that big third quarter surge to the Spurs, a lot of the defensive breakdowns were predicated on passive offense, leading to poor shots, long rebounds, and hence a big advantage on the other side for the Spurs.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:32 am    Post subject:

Drifts wrote:


Agreed.

As for Jim Jackson...that's if Phil will ever use him. Ever.
Quote:
"He was moving pretty well and he has a pretty good idea of what to do," Coach Phil Jackson said. "He's still not in rhythm of the offense or things like that, but he has a pretty good feel for what's going on."

Will Jim Jackson play tonight?

"We don't know about that yet," the Lakers' coach said following Tuesday's practice. "But we'll get him in at some point."
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:35 am    Post subject:

re4ee wrote:
Drifts wrote:


Agreed.

As for Jim Jackson...that's if Phil will ever use him. Ever.
Quote:
"He was moving pretty well and he has a pretty good idea of what to do," Coach Phil Jackson said. "He's still not in rhythm of the offense or things like that, but he has a pretty good feel for what's going on."

Will Jim Jackson play tonight?

"We don't know about that yet," the Lakers' coach said following Tuesday's practice. "But we'll get him in at some point."
<link>


that's good to know.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:24 am    Post subject:

I think Lamar just lets Kobe get the load offensively because he is not confident in his game
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:04 pm    Post subject:

psydesho wrote:
I put a lot of the blame on Mr. Bryant himself. He is the best passer we have and routinely refuses to give Lamar the ball when he has a smaller player on him in the post.

Kobe needs to correct this trend or he will truly find himself out in the cold for a numerous amount of years when it comes to getting rings. Why?

The team follows his lead. If he starts feeding Lamar, others will also. Remember that Lamar has no problem giving the ball up to someone open, so players don't mind moving to the open spaces. We watched Kobe feed McGrady in the all-star game. I'm not suggesting to feed Lamar to this extent, but to intentionally get Lamar involved somewhat like he did Tracy would go a long way. Remember Tracy is a shooter so when he got the ball we all knew it was going up. Lamar is a passer first so all the players are now looking to get to the open spots for that dunk or mid range jumper. Lamar would surely give the ball back to Kobe who can now move without the ball and not have to work as much for those much needed points he gives us.

This does not make Lamar the facilitor. It makes Kobe the facilitator as of now. If Jim Jackson can handle what I described for Kobe it will make him the facilitator and really open up a lot for the team.

Our big guys are not there just to rebound for the outside shooters. We stayed in the game in the first half against the Spurs because we feed the low post over and over again. Parker was driving in the 1st, but our rotations to the open shooters were much better and to be frank, Finley didn't heat up yet.

The third period came along and the post feeds stopped coming. All of a sudden our rotations got slower and Manu went hog wild.

The rhythm of this team predicates on feeding the post. It could be Kobe or whoever. When we do, the team has much better spacing and it seems as if the guys get back better on defense. Part of this is the opposing team is forced to come under the foul line when the post is a threat.

When we run a lot of iso in the middle and the ball movement stagnates there is no boxing out and poor defensive recovering.

I like Lamar in the mid post where he can go either left or right. Teams usually front him. This tactic should be useless because of his length and heigth but he doesn't get the ball. If he isn't fronted he is doubled from the middle to force him to the sideline. A lot of times teams send the double once he puts the ball down to insure Kobe isn't immediately wide open on the opposite side of the court.

The triangle is meant to give the offense the opportunity to overload one side of the court with it's best players. Phil will make the adjustment and start overloading Cook, Odom and Bryant on one side (probably the right if you are facing your tv). This isn't as effective as in previous years because you can double the man without the ball now, but with the shooting abilities of Cook and Kobe and Lamar's vision of the court even when the double has arrived, it will work. This will be much more effective once Kwame remembers how to catch the ball and dunk and once Mihm stops doing his best Kwame impression of dropping nice clean passes.

That's my daily rant. Hopefully we see more of what I spoke of against the Hornets. When JJ gets on the court I'm wishing to see a more fluid team out there,

Oh yeah, bench Sasha until he learns how to get to the hole. His inability to make a layup along with Kwame's offensive ineptitude really set us back when Lamar or Kobe aren't on the floor with them.





Sssssssssssssoooo accurate that I had to give that an applause, and that is not the first game. This is why I'm crazy about LO. He won't make waves about this issue either.

If that was Shaq the LA Times would be having a field day with the twosome. A lot of folks around here who have zip for understanding of the game, and hustle in after every LO game where he only got 7 or 8 opportunities, and those were off putbacks after watching just like us the same things you just said are just amazing.

In fact that group better be happy it is LO. The guys is just not an egotistical crybaby, and absolutely will not piss, and moan about his touches. You don't want to give him the ball? Fine LO says I'll find something else to do. Rebound, push it up the floor,set up others? Ok. How in thhhhheeee hell people can't appreciate that kind of player is just strange.

How many times have we seen LO get the ball a decent number of times, and produce? If anybody loves the hell out of LO you can bet it is most definitely KObe... LO respects him, and is quite animate about it. Never gripes. It is bull (bleep) how the respect for such player is so bad...
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:20 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
Why every game it comes down to this Odom role on offense I do not know. The Lakers scored a lot of points on a good percentage on a team that is the best in the NBA defensively. But they gave up pver 100+ (and 35+ in the 3rd)


Because you need to score to win. Rebounding doesn't do jack unless you can score off those posessions. The bottom line is you need to scoring wins games. Not only that but scoring forces the other team to use energy playing defence. If Kobe had another 20 point scorer to go with his performance we would be at least 5 games better right now.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:58 pm    Post subject:

Showtime_Returns wrote:
If Kobe had another 20 point scorer to go with his performance we would be at least 5 games better right now.


agree on that
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 1:06 pm    Post subject:

THE_SHOES wrote:
psydesho wrote:
I put a lot of the blame on Mr. Bryant himself. He is the best passer we have and routinely refuses to give Lamar the ball when he has a smaller player on him in the post.

Kobe needs to correct this trend or he will truly find himself out in the cold for a numerous amount of years when it comes to getting rings. Why?

The team follows his lead. If he starts feeding Lamar, others will also. Remember that Lamar has no problem giving the ball up to someone open, so players don't mind moving to the open spaces. We watched Kobe feed McGrady in the all-star game. I'm not suggesting to feed Lamar to this extent, but to intentionally get Lamar involved somewhat like he did Tracy would go a long way. Remember Tracy is a shooter so when he got the ball we all knew it was going up. Lamar is a passer first so all the players are now looking to get to the open spots for that dunk or mid range jumper. Lamar would surely give the ball back to Kobe who can now move without the ball and not have to work as much for those much needed points he gives us.

This does not make Lamar the facilitor. It makes Kobe the facilitator as of now. If Jim Jackson can handle what I described for Kobe it will make him the facilitator and really open up a lot for the team.

Our big guys are not there just to rebound for the outside shooters. We stayed in the game in the first half against the Spurs because we feed the low post over and over again. Parker was driving in the 1st, but our rotations to the open shooters were much better and to be frank, Finley didn't heat up yet.

The third period came along and the post feeds stopped coming. All of a sudden our rotations got slower and Manu went hog wild.

The rhythm of this team predicates on feeding the post. It could be Kobe or whoever. When we do, the team has much better spacing and it seems as if the guys get back better on defense. Part of this is the opposing team is forced to come under the foul line when the post is a threat.

When we run a lot of iso in the middle and the ball movement stagnates there is no boxing out and poor defensive recovering.

I like Lamar in the mid post where he can go either left or right. Teams usually front him. This tactic should be useless because of his length and heigth but he doesn't get the ball. If he isn't fronted he is doubled from the middle to force him to the sideline. A lot of times teams send the double once he puts the ball down to insure Kobe isn't immediately wide open on the opposite side of the court.

The triangle is meant to give the offense the opportunity to overload one side of the court with it's best players. Phil will make the adjustment and start overloading Cook, Odom and Bryant on one side (probably the right if you are facing your tv). This isn't as effective as in previous years because you can double the man without the ball now, but with the shooting abilities of Cook and Kobe and Lamar's vision of the court even when the double has arrived, it will work. This will be much more effective once Kwame remembers how to catch the ball and dunk and once Mihm stops doing his best Kwame impression of dropping nice clean passes.

That's my daily rant. Hopefully we see more of what I spoke of against the Hornets. When JJ gets on the court I'm wishing to see a more fluid team out there,

Oh yeah, bench Sasha until he learns how to get to the hole. His inability to make a layup along with Kwame's offensive ineptitude really set us back when Lamar or Kobe aren't on the floor with them.





Sssssssssssssoooo accurate that I had to give that an applause, and that is not the first game. This is why I'm crazy about LO. He won't make waves about this issue either.

If that was Shaq the LA Times would be having a field day with the twosome. A lot of folks around here who have zip for understanding of the game, and hustle in after every LO game where he only got 7 or 8 opportunities, and those were off putbacks after watching just like us the same things you just said are just amazing.

In fact that group better be happy it is LO. The guys is just not an egotistical crybaby, and absolutely will not piss, and moan about his touches. You don't want to give him the ball? Fine LO says I'll find something else to do. Rebound, push it up the floor,set up others? Ok. How in thhhhheeee hell people can't appreciate that kind of player is just strange.

How many times have we seen LO get the ball a decent number of times, and produce? If anybody loves the hell out of LO you can bet it is most definitely KObe... LO respects him, and is quite animate about it. Never gripes. It is bull (bleep) how the respect for such player is so bad...


I've been keeping quite about his for a while Shoes, but it really pissed me off against the Spurs because even Stu was saying if they front him with anyone not a 7ft give Lamar the ball on the block. I love the hell out of Lamar. I know he has focusing problems, but Kobe routinely ignores him on the block when he has fought and won position. This has to stop if the other 3 guys are going to be effective.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 4:37 pm    Post subject:

From CL.com

I just heard on the radio that Joe McDonald was talking to Lamar's college coach Jim Harrick, a great bball mind and I believe a current scout for the Nuggets. He apparently said that were using LO all wrong, and that having recruited him and watched his game develop he is much more effective in the post. Ive said basically the same thing for a while now, maybe not as a back to the basket post up player but we need to get him on the block and let him exploit the mismatches down there. Interesting that a guy who is very familiar with Lamar's game feels this way, I wonder if Phil has been considering it at all?

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 6:37 pm    Post subject:

Showtime_Returns wrote:
Quote:
Why every game it comes down to this Odom role on offense I do not know. The Lakers scored a lot of points on a good percentage on a team that is the best in the NBA defensively. But they gave up pver 100+ (and 35+ in the 3rd)


Because you need to score to win. Rebounding doesn't do jack unless you can score off those posessions. The bottom line is you need to scoring wins games. Not only that but scoring forces the other team to use energy playing defence. If Kobe had another 20 point scorer to go with his performance we would be at least 5 games better right now.


Watch the game before you post... Try and understand that if you don't have the ball you can't score, which means you're belittling the importance of rebounding is silly. Next, right here in the Hornets game Kobe is dribbling between double teams, and doing a solo act when at times it is certainly not a good idea.

Outside of Kobe ofcourse no one player has more than 6 shot attempts at the half. This is not due to lack of agression by any player. It is Kobe's domination of the ball. The Lakers have scored over 50pts at the half. More scoring is not the issue. 50+ points is good for any team at the half. If you want to see a 20+ per game scorer along with Bryant you would have to create a new environment on the Lakers to "share the ball" more, take LO out of the current role he is in, and, feed him in the post. Bryants average ppg would only go down is the only differance to be seen...

This team has issues on defense more than they do offense...

Now that I know you didn't understand one word of that back to your infernal whining...
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 6:42 pm    Post subject:

LkrsOvrMia wrote:
From CL.com

I just heard on the radio that Joe McDonald was talking to Lamar's college coach Jim Harrick, a great bball mind and I believe a current scout for the Nuggets. He apparently said that were using LO all wrong, and that having recruited him and watched his game develop he is much more effective in the post. Ive said basically the same thing for a while now, maybe not as a back to the basket post up player but we need to get him on the block and let him exploit the mismatches down there. Interesting that a guy who is very familiar with Lamar's game feels this way, I wonder if Phil has been considering it at all?

Go Lakers!


yup. Its everyone fault but LO's
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 2:38 am    Post subject:

THE_SHOES wrote:
Showtime_Returns wrote:
Quote:
Why every game it comes down to this Odom role on offense I do not know. The Lakers scored a lot of points on a good percentage on a team that is the best in the NBA defensively. But they gave up pver 100+ (and 35+ in the 3rd)


Because you need to score to win. Rebounding doesn't do jack unless you can score off those posessions. The bottom line is you need to scoring wins games. Not only that but scoring forces the other team to use energy playing defence. If Kobe had another 20 point scorer to go with his performance we would be at least 5 games better right now.


Watch the game before you post... Try and understand that if you don't have the ball you can't score, which means you're belittling the importance of rebounding is silly. Next, right here in the Hornets game Kobe is dribbling between double teams, and doing a solo act when at times it is certainly not a good idea.

Outside of Kobe ofcourse no one player has more than 6 shot attempts at the half. This is not due to lack of agression by any player. It is Kobe's domination of the ball. The Lakers have scored over 50pts at the half. More scoring is not the issue. 50+ points is good for any team at the half. If you want to see a 20+ per game scorer along with Bryant you would have to create a new environment on the Lakers to "share the ball" more, take LO out of the current role he is in, and, feed him in the post. Bryants average ppg would only go down is the only differance to be seen...

This team has issues on defense more than they do offense...

Now that I know you didn't understand one word of that back to your infernal whining...


Shoes did you notice the coaching staff and Kobe where looking at our post. They applied everything we said to the gameplan and booya - all of our players were more effective.

I really like that the first thing Jim Jackson did was feed Lamar in the post with no hesitation.

This is the key for the squad because the amount of mismatches are tremendous. We can really pound teams on the board and a good majority of our players are really good at scoring off of cuts and mid range shots.

The defense was better when we were feeding the post also, because the Hornets were forced to play under the foul line and weren't running out on us or taking off once getting those long rebounds.

18pts, 17 boards and 6 assists.

Feed the man in the post. Kobe will get his no matter what. Allow Lamar to get everyone else in the game ya'll.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:01 am    Post subject:

psydesho, that is no bull (bleep)... Even if you don't have the best of weapons fire all your damn guns anyway! Hell you may hit something!

With a better teamwork effort this team may have actually won at least 4, or 5 more games, and conserved Kobes energy for them "show stopping" 4th quarters. It is uneccessary for Bryant to work as hard as he does...
Especially, that even at this stage the youngn's are just about to the point that they are ready to at least keep up with some teams for three quarters, and set the table for the 4th...

Enter Kobe Bryant...

Now teams not only have to deal with a fresh Bryant, but even if he just may happen to not have it that day the rest are working in sync, and hell who knows! Kobe may be able to kick back on certain teams, and let his boys take care of the "light work" for the whole damned game with just a minimal effort from him... Sit down in the 4th! Read a newspaper! Call little Kobina down, and play with her!
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:17 am    Post subject:

I think Lamar's problem scoring as frequently is a three part problem. First he needs to get a few more post touches. Secondly, he needs to take the mid range jumper that treams give him. (quite frequently) and 3rdly and most important he needs to be a little more selfish with the basketball. I see him try to pass the ball in situations where he should take it upon himself to score. Lamar usually scores more when he becomes more agressive. Phil Jackson as well as his teamates need to encourage him to stay agressive.
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