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KingKobeDubbz Starting Rotation
Joined: 09 Jun 2005 Posts: 734
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Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 2:48 am Post subject: |
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He's above them all. It should be the legends and present day stars compare to Kobe. Kobe Bryant is by far the greatest basketball player to ever walk the planet today!!!!!!!!!!! |
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ElginBaylor Franchise Player
Joined: 05 Nov 2005 Posts: 10775 Location: Hoosier Nation
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Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 6:20 am Post subject: |
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So I guess we all agree that Kobe is better than Jordan and LBJ. Glad this topic came up. I needed some intellectual stimulation.
_________________ Not a legend |
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LakerJam Franchise Player
Joined: 02 Aug 2002 Posts: 18410 Location: Sherman Oaks, CA
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Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:38 am Post subject: |
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astrallionheart wrote: | Das wrote: | K8KillerInstinct wrote: | jminges wrote: | Basically - Kobe is better than Michael Jordan and LeBron James. Thank you. |
No I didn't say that. You missed the whole frekin point. What you just said is what I am trying to disprove. |
So are you saying that Kobe is not better than Jordan or LBJ? |
If Kobe had the hustle and energy on defense Jordan had, then yes, he would be a better player. The guy was literally everywhere, covered in sweat, leading his team in scoring and on the defensive end, first back. |
It's these comments when you see how much people romantacize Jordan. Jordan was NOT the team leader in defense - Pippen was. It was Pippen who was always on the opponent's best player, Pippen with the toughest defensive assignment, Pippen who set the defensive tone - not MJ. Jordan was allowed to roam and grab steals and break up passes, specifically because he had a Pippen to handle the primary defensive assignment. You also have to consider that Jordan played defense under different rules. He was allowed to put hands on his opponent, which players can no longer do. Now, a player has to "shadow" his man, but never touch him. You don't think that would have affected how good Jordan looked defensively, were he not allowed to touch? Or how about how good Kobe would look defensively if he was allowed to touch?
Point is, Jordan has always gotten way too much credit on the defensive end, when it's his teammate who deserved that credit far more. Jordan would win DPOY, but it was Pippen who did all the dirty work on defense and deserved it. No different that that one year when MJ won MVP, but Pippen was really the won who deserved MVP. Jordan deserves his respect, but it's always bugged me how much credit HE got for Pippen's work. |
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Sage_10 Star Player
Joined: 24 Dec 2005 Posts: 6668
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Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:47 am Post subject: |
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Lets just wait until Kobe finishes his career, then everyone will be compared to him and not Michael Jorg...Gerod... what was his name again? |
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LakerFan4Lyfe Starting Rotation
Joined: 30 Sep 2005 Posts: 761
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Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:01 am Post subject: |
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jack13 wrote: | Kobe is better then Jordan...Period. |
im not gonna say Kobe is better than MJ....but what I am gonna say. is without Pippen.... Jordan would not have won anything!!!
however, Kobe is young and He might pull a championship without SHaq
Last edited by LakerFan4Lyfe on Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:05 am; edited 1 time in total |
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tgf5 Franchise Player
Joined: 18 Jun 2005 Posts: 11581 Location: Canada
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Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:03 am Post subject: |
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LakerJam wrote: | astrallionheart wrote: | Das wrote: | K8KillerInstinct wrote: | jminges wrote: | Basically - Kobe is better than Michael Jordan and LeBron James. Thank you. |
No I didn't say that. You missed the whole frekin point. What you just said is what I am trying to disprove. |
So are you saying that Kobe is not better than Jordan or LBJ? |
If Kobe had the hustle and energy on defense Jordan had, then yes, he would be a better player. The guy was literally everywhere, covered in sweat, leading his team in scoring and on the defensive end, first back. |
It's these comments when you see how much people romantacize Jordan. Jordan was NOT the team leader in defense - Pippen was. It was Pippen who was always on the opponent's best player, Pippen with the toughest defensive assignment, Pippen who set the defensive tone - not MJ. Jordan was allowed to roam and grab steals and break up passes, specifically because he had a Pippen to handle the primary defensive assignment. You also have to consider that Jordan played defense under different rules. He was allowed to put hands on his opponent, which players can no longer do. Now, a player has to "shadow" his man, but never touch him. You don't think that would have affected how good Jordan looked defensively, were he not allowed to touch? Or how about how good Kobe would look defensively if he was allowed to touch?
Point is, Jordan has always gotten way too much credit on the defensive end, when it's his teammate who deserved that credit far more. Jordan would win DPOY, but it was Pippen who did all the dirty work on defense and deserved it. No different that that one year when MJ won MVP, but Pippen was really the won who deserved MVP. Jordan deserves his respect, but it's always bugged me how much credit HE got for Pippen's work. |
Back then Jordan was a good defender, in these days he may be overrated, but he puts more effort than Kobe does and he is better on the defensive end without a doubt. MJ didn't play with Pippen his entire career so he had to develop his defense. |
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ppineda Starting Rotation
Joined: 12 Aug 2003 Posts: 701
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Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:25 am Post subject: |
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LakerFan4Lyfe wrote: | jack13 wrote: | Kobe is better then Jordan...Period. |
im not gonna say Kobe is better than MJ....but what I am gonna say. is without Pippen.... Jordan would not have won anything!!!
however, Kobe is young and He might pull a championship without SHaq |
You are insane... without Pippen, he would not of won anything... You do know you get to replace him in the lineup and not just play 4 vs 5.... He might not have reeled off 6 championships, but he definately could have found someone else to get him to 1.
Kobe is a great player, and maybe even on skills alone, better than MJ. But I'll take MJ every day of the week and twice on Sunday over Kobe for his leadership and the intangibles that he brings to the court. Did you ever watch some his series vs. the Pistons? They physically kicked the crap out of him and he still scored like a man possessed. I've seen Kobe do amazing things, but MJ exerted his will to control games, series, and seasons... I would also need to see a 70+ win season from a Kobe led team (ending with a championship) to make me believe that he is better than MJ.
Just enjoy Kobe for what he is: The best player in the game today.
And let time tell where he is placed among the absolute greats. |
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_LAKESHOW_ Star Player
Joined: 22 Apr 2001 Posts: 6138 Location: hot dog stand across from staples
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Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:27 am Post subject: |
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LakerFan4Lyfe wrote: | jack13 wrote: | Kobe is better then Jordan...Period. |
im not gonna say Kobe is better than MJ....but what I am gonna say. is without Pippen.... Jordan would not have won anything!!!
however, Kobe is young and He might pull a championship without SHaq |
kobe will have more years left in the tank to prove that. but LAKER history shows, without a bigman in the middle, we dont win the bling.
mikan - 5(?)
chamberlain - 1
kareem - 5
shaq - 3 _________________ Los Angeles Lakers |
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Laker's Fan Franchise Player
Joined: 27 Jun 2002 Posts: 12861
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Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:14 am Post subject: |
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tgf5 wrote: | Laker's Fan wrote: | Offensively: Kobe is currently playing better than any NBA player I have ever seen. That dates back to the early/mid 80's.
Defensively: Has proven himself to be an excellent defender when he commits energy to it. This season he has been saving his legs for offense but spurts of hard nosed defense have surfaced. |
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=AsQT4ePpkftOEOZHoFIcer28vLYF?slug=50pointsinagame&prov=st&type=lgns
Apparently you don't know Michael Jordan of 87-88. |
Kobe's Offensive game is much more Cerebral than a young Jordans. In fairness that is in part because Jordan helped develop the blue print. Kobe could score 20 a game on just his superior understanding of offensive basketball sans the athletic gymnastics.
Ther are differences between the two. Kobe hits the angles much better than Jordan ever did. His superior footwork and sleeker frame lets him slither around defenders. Jordan was more athletic and when he got a possitonal advantage he generally jumped away from (or through) his opponents. Kobe is also a better shooter although Jordan is underrated in that category. (I don't see Zone defense as a big difference either. It effects low post players more than guards. Guard play in the NBA is too fast for Zones to greatly hinder a great player.) _________________ Austin Reaves keeps his game tight, like Kobe Bryant on game night. |
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jxhopper Star Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2004 Posts: 1029
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Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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ppineda wrote: | LakerFan4Lyfe wrote: | jack13 wrote: | Kobe is better then Jordan...Period. |
im not gonna say Kobe is better than MJ....but what I am gonna say. is without Pippen.... Jordan would not have won anything!!!
however, Kobe is young and He might pull a championship without SHaq |
You are insane... without Pippen, he would not of won anything... You do know you get to replace him in the lineup and not just play 4 vs 5.... He might not have reeled off 6 championships, but he definately could have found someone else to get him to 1.
Kobe is a great player, and maybe even on skills alone, better than MJ. But I'll take MJ every day of the week and twice on Sunday over Kobe for his leadership and the intangibles that he brings to the court. Did you ever watch some his series vs. the Pistons? They physically kicked the crap out of him and he still scored like a man possessed. I've seen Kobe do amazing things, but MJ exerted his will to control games, series, and seasons... I would also need to see a 70+ win season from a Kobe led team (ending with a championship) to make me believe that he is better than MJ.
Just enjoy Kobe for what he is: The best player in the game today.
And let time tell where he is placed among the absolute greats. |
You probably won't see any team have a 70 win season like that because the rest of the league was rather weak in terms of competition. Also Jordan had a team stacked with talent.... LOADED. |
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DrDoom Starting Rotation
Joined: 20 Aug 2005 Posts: 505
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Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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Jordan scored in an era were what would be a flagrant foul today was considered a love tap. The man was without question, the greatest guard to ever play the game. It is unfair to compare anybody to a legend like Jordan.
But if we were to do it. This is where I would say Kobe would have to improve.
Defense: Since Snaq has left Kobe has been exposed as being a vastly overrated defender. Sure you can gamble constantly and overplay your man when you have a 7 foot 360 pound agile center in the middle that cleans up everything. But now that Kobe has a Chris mihm type he gets torched fairly consistently. Last year was an all time new low for Kobe on defense. Sure he scored 30 a night but he also gave up 25 on the defensive end. Kobe has a terrific defensive skillset, but he gambles way too much, does not exert enough energy on it and has yet to learn how to lead his team by example on the defensive end.
Leadership: Kobe has proven to be an up and down leader. In early dec Kobe was being the leader we all hoped he could be. He was vocal, exerting energy on d, passing the ball, encouraging teammates and taking control when it was time. That said, that was only a few week period and the past two years he has shown questionable at best leadershipskills. Jordan, along with Magic, Bird and Russell, was undoubtedly one of the top 5 leaders to ever play the game. Kobe isn't even close.
Knowledge of the game: Many people have pointed this out before, but Kobe almost knows too many moves. Jordan could do anything, but wouldn't. He would stick to a few moves and repeatedly do it to get his points. Kobe is still sometimes like a 19 year old that is out there playing on pure adrenalin and not with his head. He needs to learn that sometimes efficiency is better then flash.
Hustle: Jordan played every minute of the game seemingly as intent as he was playing his last. He dove for lose balls, never gave up on a play and was one of those types that were always in the right place at the right time. Bryant does not do this. Without the ball in his hands bryant seems to be conserving his energy for times when the ball will be in his hands. Unfortunately, hustle plays create those key moments that are often the difference in the game and kobe doesn't get too many of those.
-Doom |
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astrallionheart Star Player
Joined: 17 May 2005 Posts: 1292 Location: Windbloom
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Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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LakerJam wrote: | astrallionheart wrote: | Das wrote: | K8KillerInstinct wrote: | jminges wrote: | Basically - Kobe is better than Michael Jordan and LeBron James. Thank you. |
No I didn't say that. You missed the whole frekin point. What you just said is what I am trying to disprove. |
So are you saying that Kobe is not better than Jordan or LBJ? |
If Kobe had the hustle and energy on defense Jordan had, then yes, he would be a better player. The guy was literally everywhere, covered in sweat, leading his team in scoring and on the defensive end, first back. |
It's these comments when you see how much people romantacize Jordan. Jordan was NOT the team leader in defense - Pippen was. It was Pippen who was always on the opponent's best player, Pippen with the toughest defensive assignment, Pippen who set the defensive tone - not MJ. Jordan was allowed to roam and grab steals and break up passes, specifically because he had a Pippen to handle the primary defensive assignment. You also have to consider that Jordan played defense under different rules. He was allowed to put hands on his opponent, which players can no longer do. Now, a player has to "shadow" his man, but never touch him. You don't think that would have affected how good Jordan looked defensively, were he not allowed to touch? Or how about how good Kobe would look defensively if he was allowed to touch?
Point is, Jordan has always gotten way too much credit on the defensive end, when it's his teammate who deserved that credit far more. Jordan would win DPOY, but it was Pippen who did all the dirty work on defense and deserved it. No different that that one year when MJ won MVP, but Pippen was really the won who deserved MVP. Jordan deserves his respect, but it's always bugged me how much credit HE got for Pippen's work. |
Hmm, LakerJam, you seem to have either misread my post or just bolded what was convenient. It seems like so many recycled anti-Jordan arguments. I said he was the guy who was first back on D, always covering for other guys mistakes, and had a passion to break up passes and impose his will on the ENTIRE opposing team.
I never said he was a good man defender, or said he was the number 1 defender. I even explicitly said he wasn't, but strangely you point this out to me...to repeat what I've said. I'm glad there are alot of other people who've watched basketball long enough to chime in on Jordan's "hustle" after your post.
No where here are we trying to put down Kobe or elevate Jordan above what he is. We are even specifically pointing out his faults. The point is, he had this *quality* of defensive willpower. It wasn't the dirty Bruce Bowen antics or the Ron Artest "I'll steer you the direction I want when you drive." It's chasing down the ball, closing down passing lanes, and *hustle." It was a amazing quality he had, and part of it I believe is mental--playing D with reckless abandon.
Yes, he played the "free safety" position. No, Scottie Pippen was not the reason he was "allowed" to play that way. He played defense like that no matter what, that was his "style." It's a reckless abandon style you see once a generation, and that's defense that's "beautiful" to watch. There's another guy in this league that despite being a great man defender, also has this "help D" mentality--Ben Wallace. Everyone on Detroit always says Big Ben "erases so many mistakes." Mistakes on rotations, misjudgment on where the offensive player will drive. He will deflect the ball at the last second when it seems an easy layup is coming.
Michael Jordan averaged 2.5 steals per game (pre Washington). Some guys get a lot of steals from "gambling," and yes, Michael got a fair amount that way too. But gambling is a term referring when you predetermine where your opponent will go and try to swipe the ball away. You can't average 2.5 steals and be gambling all night, otherwise you would be losing more games than winning if all your team did was play 4 on 5 D all night. All we are saying--and if you've watched Michael play you'll know what we're saying--when the ball is on the other side of the court he will rush over to block entry passes (now your team is playing 3 on 2 or 4 on 3 defense on that side of the court and can easily deflect passes, close off lanes). When the opponent is in transition, he'll get steals by knocking the ball out of bounds and off the opponent (one of his pet tricks). He had very high defensive "IQ." Yes, he was not a great lockdown defender. But he knew what he was good at and put his heart into it. Blah blah blah.
It's a style of defense. Keeping your man down to 4-20 shooting is one way. Another way is to force shot clock violations, and force turnovers to get your running game going (and the Bulls always were a high scoring, high number of possession team).
Last edited by astrallionheart on Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:39 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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OX1947 Franchise Player
Joined: 30 Jun 2001 Posts: 14951 Location: Winchester, CA.
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Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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Comparing someones career who's hasnt ending yet to someone else who has retired is a waste of time. Kobe this year has offically hit his prime. And with his work ethic and dedication, if god willing, he stays healthy for another ten years, there is no doubt he has the chance to be the greatest basketball player to ever live. If Kobe ends up winning 3 or 4 more championships and passes Kareem in scoring, and above all, stay with the Lakers for 20 years and doesnt stray some place else, I just can not see how he wouldnt be. The guy would be the complete package. Talent, dedication, loyalty champion, indiviudal stats, everything..... |
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venturalakersfan Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144468 Location: The Gold Coast
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Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:29 pm Post subject: |
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jack13 wrote: | Kobe is better then Jordan...Period. |
Neither one compares to Magic. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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K8KillerInstinct Starting Rotation
Joined: 26 Jan 2006 Posts: 434
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Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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To answer some general questions about this thread I started yesterday:
First, I am not saying LBJ & MJ are better than Kobe. I understand the Jordan part of this question, but LBJ??
Hell no, LBJ is NOT BETTER THAN Kobe. Not even close (at least not as of today). But enough clues have appeared to say that Kobe will not be surpassed this generation. But Jordan is the question??
Yes there are some aspects of Kobe's game (shooting ability, scoring) that are better than Jordan already. That can be said with pride, but as for who is the better player, that question is the reason the thread was created.
They cannot be compared right now, simple as that. Instead of repeating my reasoning please read the first post of this thread. _________________ Be nice to Mitch and everyone in this planet. Never do evil or commit any act that might hurt others' feelings. We must all become environmentalists.
***Beware of Sarcasm*** |
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