Hope Phil considers this Line-up move...
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LakeShow06
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:59 pm    Post subject: Hope Phil considers this Line-up move...

i know people will flame me for even suggetsing this, but just stay with me as it's kinda long and consider what i'm saying....

i have tried to be patient with Brian Cook as a starter, but his good offence is not consistent enough (as a starter) and this is his biggest asset. His defence is terrible and his mind is not on the job enough, so i think he would be best used as a good scoring option off the bench, especially in a game like today, when Kobe was so cold early

Kwame is not consistent enough either to start and is also forming a good combination off the bench at C (with Mihm strating at C) - this is good for us - we need a legit big off the bench at C

moreover, it's obvious Phil is not going to play Bynum and Turiaf much at all from here on in, let alone start either of them (which i did throw up as an idea at one point to shake up the starters)

so, my point is.......i think Phil finally has to realise that Lamar can be utilised really effectively at PF - like he did tonight, as he was playing down low more often than not and produced both on offense and on the boards. Also, Lamar needs the burden of expectation of having to run the offense eased on him.....he will still get players involved and will still get his assits, that's just how he is naturally, but i think he can be used more effectively down low at PF

now, this means someone else has to take more responsibility as the "triangle initiator" and to start at SF (this is where i'm about to get flammed) and seeing that D George is horribly inconsistent and is best served as our 6th man off the bench (and is also currently injured)....so

why not go with the successful line-up Phil implemented late in the third and in the fourth against NOK tonight....it really seemed to work ok and could be good in the future.......and utilise Luke Walton

PG Smush Parker
SG Kobe Bryant
SF Luke Walton
PF Lamar Odom
C Chris Mihm

Bench

Sasha Vujacic
Jim Jackson
Devean George
Brian Cook
Kwame Brown

i know - it's Luke - or Puke as many people call him, but seriously his passing, rebounding and team-oriented play could make him the perfect middle-man in this line-up and as for the team D questions that will flood this post.....well it couldn't seriously be worse than it is now could it??

this is worth a try as far as i'm concerned........comments?
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jack13
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:01 pm    Post subject:

Luke for starter???? Dude...
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:09 pm    Post subject:

jack13 wrote:
Luke for starter???? Dude...


thanks for the comment, but what is your alternative, as Lamar needs to be moved to PF and into the post, so who is your alternative starter at SF at to initiate the offense?

It's all good to smack my idea, but would be better if you gave another view?
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:09 pm    Post subject:

Luke starting at the 3 and Odom at the 4?

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:12 pm    Post subject:

Hector the Pup wrote:
Luke starting at the 3 and Odom at the 4?



again, what's your alternative?

i just don't see us going anywhere with Cook starting and being so incocnsistent and horrible on D.....and Odom needs more freedom to play agressively and score and board like he did tonight and has done recently, which means less ball on his hands initiating?

it's easy to be critical without offering a better solution.....????
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:14 pm    Post subject:

LakeShow06 wrote:
Hector the Pup wrote:
Luke starting at the 3 and Odom at the 4?



again, what's your alternative?

i just don't see us going anywhere with Cook starting and being so incocnsistent and horrible on D.....and Odom needs more freedom to play agressively and score and board like he did tonight and has done recently, which means less ball on his hands initiating?

it's easy to be critical without offering a better solution.....????


A better alternative is pretty much any starting lineup but the one you proposed.
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LakeShow06
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:18 pm    Post subject:

topramen78 wrote:
LakeShow06 wrote:
Hector the Pup wrote:
Luke starting at the 3 and Odom at the 4?



again, what's your alternative?

i just don't see us going anywhere with Cook starting and being so incocnsistent and horrible on D.....and Odom needs more freedom to play agressively and score and board like he did tonight and has done recently, which means less ball on his hands initiating?

it's easy to be critical without offering a better solution.....????


A better alternative is pretty much any starting lineup but the one you proposed.


again a constructive comment, with no substance....thanks

also, why was it then, that this line-up got us back into the game tonight, with both Walton and Lamar on the court at the same time and Walton passing and Lamar scoring?

Walton, 7 points, 4 assists and played 23 mins, the same as Cook? (and i realise George was out, meaning Luke would play more minutes)
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kobe_somebody_odom
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:25 pm    Post subject:

Not bad, but I prefer

Sasha/ Kobe
Smush/ Jim Jackson
Kobe / George or Walton
Odom / Cook
Mihm/ Turiaf or Brown

Kobe can board and does a good job against 3's on D

Odom should always be playing 4. Why can't he initiate and play the 4. The triangle should be flexible enoug for this with Kobe on the block.

Kwame/Cook off the bench is pretty solid IMO

Smush/Sasha backcourt reminds me of Blake/Dixon. Not good by any means but serviceable.

I think Sasha facilitating would work, he likes to pass the rock and take the open shot. You cant just leave him open. Smush is also a threat from 3.

This is our best lineup, especially with George out
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kobe_somebody_odom
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:27 pm    Post subject:

LakeShow06 wrote:
topramen78 wrote:
LakeShow06 wrote:
Hector the Pup wrote:
Luke starting at the 3 and Odom at the 4?



again, what's your alternative?

i just don't see us going anywhere with Cook starting and being so incocnsistent and horrible on D.....and Odom needs more freedom to play agressively and score and board like he did tonight and has done recently, which means less ball on his hands initiating?

it's easy to be critical without offering a better solution.....????


A better alternative is pretty much any starting lineup but the one you proposed.


again a constructive comment, with no substance....thanks

also, why was it then, that this line-up got us back into the game tonight, with both Walton and Lamar on the court at the same time and Walton passing and Lamar scoring?

Walton, 7 points, 4 assists and played 23 mins, the same as Cook? (and i realise George was out, meaning Luke would play more minutes)


Walton is so inconstent its not even funny. He has played well lately, but I am not sure he should play more than 20 min. He is not good enough on defense or offense to compete on both ends of the floor while playing starter minutes. Luke is at best 6th man. Cook >>>> Walton most nights
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topramen78
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:28 pm    Post subject:

LakeShow06 wrote:
topramen78 wrote:
LakeShow06 wrote:
Hector the Pup wrote:
Luke starting at the 3 and Odom at the 4?



again, what's your alternative?

i just don't see us going anywhere with Cook starting and being so incocnsistent and horrible on D.....and Odom needs more freedom to play agressively and score and board like he did tonight and has done recently, which means less ball on his hands initiating?

it's easy to be critical without offering a better solution.....????


A better alternative is pretty much any starting lineup but the one you proposed.


again a constructive comment, with no substance....thanks

also, why was it then, that this line-up got us back into the game tonight, with both Walton and Lamar on the court at the same time and Walton passing and Lamar scoring?

Walton, 7 points, 4 assists and played 23 mins, the same as Cook? (and i realise George was out, meaning Luke would play more minutes)


How is that comment NOT constructive? ANY lineup, other than the lineup you suggested would be better. Its FULL of substance.

Kobe took the game over, that's why the game was won. You know, those 18 pts in the 4th? Walton was not the player of the game, sorry.

Ok, so let me get this straight...

Because of this ONE FREAKIN GAME you're going to pull Cook over Walton? (*#@$&(*#&$*#$&(*#$&#(*

In other words, whoever has a good game, gets the start in the next game? lol..... dumb dumb dumb dumb.

Walton is shooting 37% on the season. Cook is shooting 53% on the season.

Please tell me this post was a sick joke. I feel nauseous right now that there is actually a person out there who may feel this is a good idea.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:31 pm    Post subject:

I'd rather see Sasha or JJ or Devean starting over Luke. Kobe and Odom could share the initiator job.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:38 pm    Post subject:

topramen78 wrote:
LakeShow06 wrote:
topramen78 wrote:
LakeShow06 wrote:
Hector the Pup wrote:
Luke starting at the 3 and Odom at the 4?



again, what's your alternative?

i just don't see us going anywhere with Cook starting and being so incocnsistent and horrible on D.....and Odom needs more freedom to play agressively and score and board like he did tonight and has done recently, which means less ball on his hands initiating?

it's easy to be critical without offering a better solution.....????


A better alternative is pretty much any starting lineup but the one you proposed.


again a constructive comment, with no substance....thanks

also, why was it then, that this line-up got us back into the game tonight, with both Walton and Lamar on the court at the same time and Walton passing and Lamar scoring?

Walton, 7 points, 4 assists and played 23 mins, the same as Cook? (and i realise George was out, meaning Luke would play more minutes)


How is that comment NOT constructive? ANY lineup, other than the lineup you suggested would be better. Its FULL of substance.

Kobe took the game over, that's why the game was won. You know, those 18 pts in the 4th? Walton was not the player of the game, sorry.

Ok, so let me get this straight...

Because of this ONE FREAKIN GAME you're going to pull Cook over Walton? (*#@$&(*#&$*#$&(*#$&#(*

In other words, whoever has a good game, gets the start in the next game? lol..... dumb dumb dumb dumb.

Walton is shooting 37% on the season. Cook is shooting 53% on the season.

Please tell me this post was a sick joke. I feel nauseous right now that there is actually a person out there who may feel this is a good idea.


no it is not a joke.....and if you did bother to read my entire post instead of just seeing Luke mentioned in the starting line-up, you obviously didn't comprehend or understand most of my arguement and reasoning.....

you must be more shallow and superficial than you are suggesting i am, to think i would pull Cook for Walton on the strength of one game or even suggest that Walton was the player fo the game.....please????

i am talking about overall balance of the team, the need to get Lamar more involved offesnively (ie. scoring rather than handling) and Cook's poor D and disappearances in games being more of a factor than his very good 53% FG% (on fairly limited shots, which he could still get off the bench mind you)

my main focus is to move Lamar to PF and if that means pulling Cook from the starting line-up, then so be it, i outlined why i would replace him with Walton and stick by it and still maintain that his D or the new team D could be no worse than what it already is with Cook in there

Walton is a smart player and now that his shot seems to be improving again, Phill may just use him a lot more, maybe he will even start him....?
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:42 pm    Post subject:

kobe_somebody_odom wrote:
Not bad, but I prefer

Sasha/ Kobe
Smush/ Jim Jackson
Kobe / George or Walton
Odom / Cook
Mihm/ Turiaf or Brown

Kobe can board and does a good job against 3's on D

Odom should always be playing 4. Why can't he initiate and play the 4. The triangle should be flexible enoug for this with Kobe on the block.

Kwame/Cook off the bench is pretty solid IMO

Smush/Sasha backcourt reminds me of Blake/Dixon. Not good by any means but serviceable.

I think Sasha facilitating would work, he likes to pass the rock and take the open shot. You cant just leave him open. Smush is also a threat from 3.

This is our best lineup, especially with George out


so you agree with me that Lamar needs to be at the 4 and play PF and have less responsibility with handling the ball and initiating, cool.

so a shift in the line-up needs to happen to accomodate that obviously, but in this case, i think Sasha starting is not good, why?:

leaves 2 young guards starting in the backcourt and both have defensive problems and are very streaky scorers
leave zero legitimate PG's, other than JJ on the bench
makes more work on D and boards for Kobe by moving him closer in
overall, less balance on the bench and George and Walton are effectively wasted doubling up behind Kobe
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:45 pm    Post subject:

If DG was still available, I don't actually mind LO at PF.

I've never "pushed" for LO at the four, but I'm one of the (slight) minority
on the board who thinks he plays just as well at that position.

His numbers were actually better there last season, and I think under
Phil and with a full season now of the tri, they might even go up a bit.

That said, Luke simply isn't starting material.

DG could start, with LO at the four - but even then you could only use
that lineup against the right teams out there.

Too many PFs will get LO in foul-trouble in the West and end up killing
his minutes.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:46 pm    Post subject:

We played a small team tonight. A lot of Lamar's points were hook shots over smaller defenders. If we play a team with a legit offensive PF, we would be killed without Kwame.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:49 pm    Post subject:

topramen78 wrote:
LakeShow06 wrote:
Hector the Pup wrote:
Luke starting at the 3 and Odom at the 4?



again, what's your alternative?

i just don't see us going anywhere with Cook starting and being so incocnsistent and horrible on D.....and Odom needs more freedom to play agressively and score and board like he did tonight and has done recently, which means less ball on his hands initiating?

it's easy to be critical without offering a better solution.....????


A better alternative is pretty much any starting lineup but the one you proposed.


Go Lakers!


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:50 pm    Post subject:

kobenbynum wrote:
I'd rather see Sasha or JJ or Devean starting over Luke. Kobe and Odom could share the initiator job.


Sasha....doing a good job on bench, limited in other areas and still very raw and skinny frame to play long minutes starting and his D problems

JJ.....certainly could in the future, but 3:56 tonight is not encouraging regarding either his body or Phil's attitude, but certainly he could work into a starters role perhaps down the track

Devean.....well if people think Walton is inconsistent, thing again about Devean and he is doing really well off the bench as our 6th man and we still need a strong bench - him Kwame and Sasha are it basically??

also, Kobe and Lamar have been kinda sharing lately and still could, after all that's what the triangle is all about, everyone being correctly spaced, everyone having the ability to pass.....

just that by doing this, you (a) make more work for Kobe and (b) my point was to lesson Lamar's ball handling responsibilities so he could score more
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:52 pm    Post subject:

Charles wrote:
We played a small team tonight. A lot of Lamar's points were hook shots over smaller defenders. If we play a team with a legit offensive PF, we would be killed without Kwame.


Kwame is playing off the bench at C, so your point about being killed without Kwame is not applicable
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:57 pm    Post subject:

sodapoppenski wrote:
If DG was still available, I don't actually mind LO at PF.

I've never "pushed" for LO at the four, but I'm one of the (slight) minority
on the board who thinks he plays just as well at that position.

His numbers were actually better there last season, and I think under
Phil and with a full season now of the tri, they might even go up a bit.

That said, Luke simply isn't starting material.

DG could start, with LO at the four - but even then you could only use
that lineup against the right teams out there.

Too many PFs will get LO in foul-trouble in the West and end up killing
his minutes.


you agree about Odom at PF is or can be more effective, add another to the list

but i also agree that against bigger teams, Odom could certainly get into foul trouble, but then we have both Kwame AND Cook to come off the ebnch in that case, where as at the moment, Kwame is the only big getting playing time.....my whole point is about team balance

i certainly agree that Devean could be a good option at SF (if lamar was moved), but he is just as inconsistent as Luke can be, gives away silly fouls and is playing his best as an impact player off the bench....something that Luke isn't really, Luke needs to build momentum in games and slowly do all the little things....ala Rick Fox's role

also, Devean is hurt at the moment and could be out a while
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topramen78
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:01 pm    Post subject:

Odom at the 4 was tried last year with obvious results.

Moving Odom to the 4 versus 3 is not the reason we're 7th instead of 5th, 4th, or 3rd in the West.

A legit 4 and a solid PG is what we need. Plain and simple.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:06 pm    Post subject:

LakeShow06 wrote:
sodapoppenski wrote:
If DG was still available, I don't actually mind LO at PF.

I've never "pushed" for LO at the four, but I'm one of the (slight) minority
on the board who thinks he plays just as well at that position.

His numbers were actually better there last season, and I think under
Phil and with a full season now of the tri, they might even go up a bit.

That said, Luke simply isn't starting material.

DG could start, with LO at the four - but even then you could only use
that lineup against the right teams out there.

Too many PFs will get LO in foul-trouble in the West and end up killing
his minutes.


you agree about Odom at PF is or can be more effective, add another to the list

but i also agree that against bigger teams, Odom could certainly get into foul trouble, but then we have both Kwame AND Cook to come off the ebnch in that case, where as at the moment, Kwame is the only big getting playing time.....my whole point is about team balance

i certainly agree that Devean could be a good option at SF (if lamar was moved), but he is just as inconsistent as Luke can be, gives away silly fouls and is playing his best as an impact player off the bench....something that Luke isn't really, Luke needs to build momentum in games and slowly do all the little things....ala Rick Fox's role

also, Devean is hurt at the moment and could be out a while


Not saying DG's the long-term answer at SF if LO slides over on a night.

Just that I'd at least trust him to start, while Luke I wouldn't.

With our roster NOW, he's the guy I'd want at SF with LO out of that slot.

Effectively, you're replacing Kwame or Cook in the lineup with DG.

LO takes the spot of Kwame or Cook, while DG takes the spot of LO.

DG to me is a good defender, not great - mostly because of his fouls.

DG is moderate on offense, hot and cold.

Kwame = great post-defense, terrible on rotations (the last two games
withstanding).

Kwame = on offense, a total black-hole IMO.

So again, not an easy decision, but against the right lineups, yeah... I
like Mihm, LO, DG, Kobe, Smush over Mihm, Kwame, LO, Kobe, Smush.

All just depends on who we're playing.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:07 pm    Post subject:

Instead of Luke I think you start George. I don't think it would affect postions in the offense just because the triangle doesn't really require set positions. Defensively it would work out to, just because Lamar wouldn't have to guard a quicker small forward.

The reason I say George of Luke is just because George is a confidence kind of player. If he see's Luke starting over him his confidence goes down and will basically be lost not for that game but for the rest of the season.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:08 pm    Post subject:

topramen78 wrote:
Odom at the 4 was tried last year with obvious results.

Moving Odom to the 4 versus 3 is not the reason we're 7th instead of 5th, 4th, or 3rd in the West.

A legit 4 and a solid PG is what we need. Plain and simple.


firstly, last year was last year - this is this year, plain and simple.

a solid PG in the mould of a PG is not what Phil is looking for in the triangle, never has been and probably never will be and Smush - although again horribly inconsistent is starting to get his act together recently in the second 'Guard' role and is even dishing some dimes

and as far as a legit PF, this is my whole point - i think Lamar on top of his game can be that legit PF or as close as possible to one as there can be in the league, if he is not under the expectation to initiate the offense

18 points and 17 borads doesn't happen by accident and against PJ Brown, who although older is still very good on the boards
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:17 pm    Post subject:

sodapop and Lakers 2626,

i can understand both of your arguements about George starting over Luke IF Lamar was slid over to the 4, but a couple of thoughts?

who initiates the offence? Kobe and Lamar still as George cannot correctly initiate the offence (can't operate or initiate himself sometimes), which means it would again fall back to these guys and we NEED both of these guys scroing and being agressive on both ends of the court

also, Devean is playing at his best recently as an impact guy off the ebnch or 6th man and even admitted that himself in a trade deadline article and now realises his role on the team.....

i realise that Devean's D is > than Luke's, but i still maintain that what we lose there is about the same as what Cook gives us anyway and what we might lose in scoring with Cook, should technically (or hopefully) be made up for by Lamar being more free to score and Luke putting a few in too?
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:18 pm    Post subject:

Ok Luke is not starter material.
Reasons
-we loose size
-odom will be in foul trouble because of luke being a liability on the defensive end
-odom is a better intiator
-luke has no athletic ability
-he's only a passer, so we loose cooks scoring and luke has no defense so its a step backwards
-one game doesn't determine starters

Odom does play the 4 alot in the game, but he's best utilized as a combination. He needs to be given the ball in the post more, I watch him establish position often, but it doesn't get to him.
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