|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
magic_bryant
Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 18179
|
 Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 1:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| maddprophet wrote: | | magic_bryant wrote: | | maddprophet wrote: | | magic_bryant wrote: | Mihm's a more tradeable piece at this point, IMO. However, for THIS team, Tyson Chandler's impact would be felt much more.
We have offense guys at a pretty good effeciency as well. We have a horrible Defense compared to the offense. A guy like Chandler gives Parker, Kobe, and Odom the ability to go after more steals, because his ability to rotate and help is SUPERB. |
mihm is our only lost post back to the basket presence. and you guys would give that up for brds. and blcks.? i don't get it. no way do i take tyson over mihm, no way!
and he doesn't even avg. more blocks worth mentioning. |
The fact is we don't feature Mihm enough. He's a very good low-post scorer but isn't featured enough. With the way the offense is run, Tyson would be able to get more burn and make more impact. In the 25 or so minutes Mihm plays, how many do you think he's used on offense as something more than a "token" center? I'd say Mihm spends about 10-15 minutes on the court doing nothing but setting screens in his time. On Defense, he's not making much of an impact either.
Tyson would be grabbing all those rebounds and changing SO many more shots than Mihm in those 27 minutes he's on the court. Sure, he won't give the team a post threat, but he'll change the game defensively while still setting the screens that Mihm does. And as wolfpac said, you can actually have a lineup with Cook getting minutes alongside Odom and Tyson because they'll hide his lack of rebounding and defensive ability with their length, athleticism, and help D.
Contracts being equal, Tyson is a far better player alongside Kobe and Odom. |
i see your point, but thats just it. mihm is undeutilized. we should and can get more out of him if he's given the opportunity. more offense should be run through him at times. it opens things up for everyone else. |
But he won't be. He's been here over a year and a half and has not been utilized properly. That's likely never going to change. His offense is erratic. Sometimes the shots are dropping, then others he'll miss the easy ones 4-5 straight games. Tyson's defense would never waver.
Also, Tyson would allow Phil to use Cook more, who is PERFECT for the Triangle and knows the system well enough to find the open spots on the court and the guys look for him in those spots.
Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Mihm's game. For what he brings to the table, I'd say other than Dwight Howard, he's the most underpaid C in the league. However, Tyson's simply a better player, but obviously on a HORRBILE contract.
_________________
Stephon Marbury on Kobe: "He's the only person on 'dis earth that can do 'dat. He guards people, like shuts 'em down. Then, to do 'dat on 'da offensive end. It's like 'Damn, I can't score on him AND he about to bust my ass." |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
maddprophet
Star Player
Joined: 12 Apr 2001
Posts: 1952
Location: Hotlanta
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 1:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| magic_bryant wrote: | What's wrong with sucking on the offensive end when your impact is felt so strongly on the defensive end and in the intangibles? Look at a guy like Shawn Marion. How many plays are called for him to score? 3-4 per game, IF that?
Garbage guys who are willing and, more importantly, ABLE to do it all, regardless of touches are what makes for a winning formula. Mihm is willing to only rebound and play D regardless of touches. However, being just an above average athlete, he's not ABLE to be just that kind of player. His lack of elite athleticism causes him to pick up fouls when he's aggressive on D and going for rebounds causes him to pick up over-the-back calls. Tyson's athleticism allows for him to challenge the shot without leaving any question whether it was a clean block, and it allows him to just grab the rebound over top of the offensive player before an over-the-back call is made.
Tyson's the better player. No question. His contract is horrible though. |
you can't put chandler as a garbage man in the same sentence with marion who is an all-star. in theory what you're saying about a garbage man is all good, but tyson doesn't fit your description. we need a low post offensive presence, and there are a small number of back to the basket centers who can score. we got one in mihm, who is learning the offense more and more, and improving defensively. especially weak side rotation for blocks.
_________________
Spark the ism, my expertism, is lyracism, my flow will take you over like I was hypnotism...so where's the lighter, to start the cypher.... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
magic_bryant
Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 18179
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 1:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| SHAQ/KOBE=#1 wrote: | Chandler isn't really a post presence. He lacks the bulk to hold his position and gets pushed around a lot.
Good rebounder, but no offensive game. Putting him next to Kwame might work on defense, but we would have absolutely no offensive production from our bigs. Mihm gives us that. |
Offense from our bigs isn't exactly needed when you have one of the TOP post Defenders in the league in Kwame with one of the TOP shot blockers/changers in the league in Tyson. They complement each other's game beautifully on D.
On Offense, they're atrocious as a starting duo, but here's where the Triangle shines the most. It allows guys like Tyson and Kwame to "float" and it also allows for EASY offensive rebounding opportunities, which you'll notice that Kwame and Mihm get plenty of as well. Difference is, Mihm actually scores on the put-backs and Kwame doesn't.
Tyson would allow for more Brian Cook minutes. Brian Cook's ability to knock down the open shot and create his own shot off the dribble can NOT be overlooked in the triangle offense. Cook knows how to use the triangle to his advantage. He knows that when Kobe is in the post, to get on the other side of the court and be ready for the "kick out" to the wing player, who will then swing the ball opposite side of the court to Cook, who is ready and willing to take the shot. Catch, shoot, bang. Catch, shoot, bang. Rinse and repeat.
If Cook misses, guess who's already in position due to the triangle for easy offensive rebounding and put-back opportunities? Tyson and LO.
_________________
Stephon Marbury on Kobe: "He's the only person on 'dis earth that can do 'dat. He guards people, like shuts 'em down. Then, to do 'dat on 'da offensive end. It's like 'Damn, I can't score on him AND he about to bust my ass." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
magic_bryant
Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 18179
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 1:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| maddprophet wrote: | | magic_bryant wrote: | What's wrong with sucking on the offensive end when your impact is felt so strongly on the defensive end and in the intangibles? Look at a guy like Shawn Marion. How many plays are called for him to score? 3-4 per game, IF that?
Garbage guys who are willing and, more importantly, ABLE to do it all, regardless of touches are what makes for a winning formula. Mihm is willing to only rebound and play D regardless of touches. However, being just an above average athlete, he's not ABLE to be just that kind of player. His lack of elite athleticism causes him to pick up fouls when he's aggressive on D and going for rebounds causes him to pick up over-the-back calls. Tyson's athleticism allows for him to challenge the shot without leaving any question whether it was a clean block, and it allows him to just grab the rebound over top of the offensive player before an over-the-back call is made.
Tyson's the better player. No question. His contract is horrible though. |
you can't put chandler as a garbage man in the same sentence with marion who is an all-star. in theory what you're saying about a garbage man is all good, but tyson doesn't fit your description. we need a low post offensive presence, and there are a small number of back to the basket centers who can score. we got one in mihm, who is learning the offense more and more, and improving defensively. especially weak side rotation for blocks. |
Mihm gets blocks, yes. But he doesn't intimidate opposing players. Numerous times, NIGHTLY, I see players just ATTACK Mihm with wreckless abandon cause they know he's not going to get a piece of the ball.
Whereas with Tyson, like I said earlier, he makes the offensive player "think" about the shot. Tyson's ability to get in the air, forces the driving offensive player to pull up for a 15 foot shot, when he actually wanted to take the shot at 13 feet. With Tyson, an 8 Ft floater, becomes a 10 Foot jumper. A layup becomes a floater.
It may not seem like much, but it makes a world of difference, if you can make the opposition change what it wants to do on Offense. Even if it's just from layup to floater.
_________________
Stephon Marbury on Kobe: "He's the only person on 'dis earth that can do 'dat. He guards people, like shuts 'em down. Then, to do 'dat on 'da offensive end. It's like 'Damn, I can't score on him AND he about to bust my ass." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SHAQ/KOBE=#1
Star Player
Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 3260
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 1:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| magic_bryant wrote: |
Offense from our bigs isn't exactly needed when you have one of the TOP post Defenders in the league in Kwame with one of the TOP shot blockers/changers in the league in Tyson. They complement each other's game beautifully on D. |
Tyson is 24th in bpg, Mihm is 25. Tyson really doesn't alter that many more shots than Mihm.
| Quote: | | On Offense, they're atrocious as a starting duo, but here's where the Triangle shines the most. It allows guys like Tyson and Kwame to "float" and it also allows for EASY offensive rebounding opportunities, which you'll notice that Kwame and Mihm get plenty of as well. Difference is, Mihm actually scores on the put-backs and Kwame doesn't. |
The reason that Mihm and Kwame don't play together is because they mess up the offense with the lack of spacing. Swapping Chandler for Mihm is not going to help that because Chandler has zero offensive game.
| Quote: | | Tyson would allow for more Brian Cook minutes. Brian Cook's ability to knock down the open shot and create his own shot off the dribble can NOT be overlooked in the triangle offense. Cook knows how to use the triangle to his advantage. He knows that when Kobe is in the post, to get on the other side of the court and be ready for the "kick out" to the wing player, who will then swing the ball opposite side of the court to Cook, who is ready and willing to take the shot. Catch, shoot, bang. Catch, shoot, bang. Rinse and repeat. |
Great, we know that Cook can score. But his defensive liabilities won't be erased by Chandler.
| Quote: | | If Cook misses , guess who's already in position due to the triangle for easy offensive rebounding and put-back opportunities? Tyson and LO. |
We are 10th in rebounding and 8th in rebounding differential. Rebounding isn't our biggest problem. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
magic_bryant
Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 18179
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 1:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
You do know that you can be considered a shot-blocker if what you're really doing is changing shots, right? Mihm doesn't change shots. No player worries about whether or not he's going to block the shot.
_________________
Stephon Marbury on Kobe: "He's the only person on 'dis earth that can do 'dat. He guards people, like shuts 'em down. Then, to do 'dat on 'da offensive end. It's like 'Damn, I can't score on him AND he about to bust my ass." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SHAQ/KOBE=#1
Star Player
Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 3260
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 1:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| magic_bryant wrote: | | You do know that you can be considered a shot-blocker if what you're really doing is changing shots, right? Mihm doesn't change shots. No player worries about whether or not he's going to block the shot. |
Like I said, Chandler doesn't alter many more shots than Mihm. At least not enough to make a significant difference. I've seen plenty of players take it right at Chandler as well. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
magic_bryant
Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 18179
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 1:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
We'll just have to agree to disagree.
_________________
Stephon Marbury on Kobe: "He's the only person on 'dis earth that can do 'dat. He guards people, like shuts 'em down. Then, to do 'dat on 'da offensive end. It's like 'Damn, I can't score on him AND he about to bust my ass." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Dennis_D
LG Contributor
Joined: 12 Apr 2001
Posts: 2017
Location: North Dallas
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 2:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Looking at the stats, I don't see what Wolf and Magic_Bryant see. I have a hard time imagining that Chandler is a much superior shot blocker and yet has the same blocks per game as Mihm. As for rebounding, Mihm has as Odom rebounding with him, so there are less rebounds for him to get. Chandler doesn't play with a good rebounder like Odom. So, even though Mihm gets far fewer rebounds than Chandler, the Lakers are a better rebounding team, getting 51.2% of rebounds compared to 50.7% for Chicago.
When I see a player scoring only 5.2 ppg in 26.7 mpg, I see an offensive liability. I haven't watched any Bulls games, but I would guess that the other team's centers get to play one man zone all the time, shutting down the paint. Mihm is not a liability on either side of the court.
_________________
<-- My avatar is Margaret Nolan from one of the Carry On films. She was the girl who got painted gold in "Goldfinger". Thanks to CaliRyderX for identifying her. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
lakers1969
Star Player
Joined: 13 Jan 2006
Posts: 2197
Location: Temecula border of San Diego
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 2:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Rebounding can be solved by LO.
Tyson does not have tri experience.
I'll stick with Mihm especially he always get advice from Alcindor. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
magic_bryant
Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 18179
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 2:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Don't look at the stats. Watch Tyson on D compared to Mihm on D. Tyson rotates FAR more quickly and fluidly than Mihm. Mihm's simply not quick enough to rotate and change shots. Tyson is. He may not get the actual block, but the shot will be changed.
_________________
Stephon Marbury on Kobe: "He's the only person on 'dis earth that can do 'dat. He guards people, like shuts 'em down. Then, to do 'dat on 'da offensive end. It's like 'Damn, I can't score on him AND he about to bust my ass." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mike@LG
Moderator
Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 65135
Location: Orange County, CA
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 2:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Chandler can swat. He's proven that in the past and this year, he's regressed.
He's shown his ability, even against the Lakers several years ago. Intimidating on defense. Bulls won that game.
What's ironic is that the Bulls are trying to keep him grounded instead of going for the swat so much to keep him out of foul trouble. It's gotten worse.
Can't help but think of what Kareem would do for Tyson. He's from LA. He's not broken down like Kwame. I think he's willing to listen.
The boy can flat out rebound.
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/tyson_chandler/game_by_game_stats.html
_________________
Resident Car Nut.
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
magic_bryant
Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 18179
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 2:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
And the voice of reason speaks. Ball-game.
_________________
Stephon Marbury on Kobe: "He's the only person on 'dis earth that can do 'dat. He guards people, like shuts 'em down. Then, to do 'dat on 'da offensive end. It's like 'Damn, I can't score on him AND he about to bust my ass." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
magic_bryant
Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 18179
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 2:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Just too damn bad Tyson got that huge contract. 
Would have been a great player for the Lakers alongside Kwame.
_________________
Stephon Marbury on Kobe: "He's the only person on 'dis earth that can do 'dat. He guards people, like shuts 'em down. Then, to do 'dat on 'da offensive end. It's like 'Damn, I can't score on him AND he about to bust my ass." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mike@LG
Moderator
Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 65135
Location: Orange County, CA
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 2:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| magic_bryant wrote: | Just too damn bad Tyson got that huge contract.
Would have been a great player for the Lakers alongside Kwame. |
Funny to think Kwame beat him out in individual workouts, because Tyson had no offensive game.
We don't even have to ask the kid to be like Rodman or Ben Wallace. He's already trying.
_________________
Resident Car Nut.
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
magic_bryant
Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 18179
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 2:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Mike@LG wrote: | | magic_bryant wrote: | Just too damn bad Tyson got that huge contract.
Would have been a great player for the Lakers alongside Kwame. |
Funny to think Kwame beat him out in individual workouts, because Tyson had no offensive game. |
Yeah really. 
_________________
Stephon Marbury on Kobe: "He's the only person on 'dis earth that can do 'dat. He guards people, like shuts 'em down. Then, to do 'dat on 'da offensive end. It's like 'Damn, I can't score on him AND he about to bust my ass." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
magic_bryant
Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 18179
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 2:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Mike@LG wrote: | | magic_bryant wrote: | Just too damn bad Tyson got that huge contract.
Would have been a great player for the Lakers alongside Kwame. |
Funny to think Kwame beat him out in individual workouts, because Tyson had no offensive game.
We don't even have to ask the kid to be like Rodman or Ben Wallace. He's already trying. |
EXACTLY.
_________________
Stephon Marbury on Kobe: "He's the only person on 'dis earth that can do 'dat. He guards people, like shuts 'em down. Then, to do 'dat on 'da offensive end. It's like 'Damn, I can't score on him AND he about to bust my ass." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
vicman
Star Player
Joined: 25 Jun 2005
Posts: 2379
Location: Arcadia
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 2:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| i take tyson chandler for many reasons. age, athletisim, better hands more energy better rebounder, defender |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
magic_bryant
Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 18179
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 2:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| vicman wrote: | | i take tyson chandler for many reasons. age, athletisim, better hands more energy better rebounder, defender |
Exactly. Stop looking at stats and offensive ability. Mihm CAN score, but doesn't. He doesn't get used enough to make an impact. Tyson can and WOULD make an impact while letting LO and Kobe wreck shop.
_________________
Stephon Marbury on Kobe: "He's the only person on 'dis earth that can do 'dat. He guards people, like shuts 'em down. Then, to do 'dat on 'da offensive end. It's like 'Damn, I can't score on him AND he about to bust my ass." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
eldrunko714
Starting Rotation
Joined: 31 Dec 2005
Posts: 223
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 2:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Chandler is way overpaid and way overrated. Based on his salary he's crap. I never liked his game. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
lakers0505
Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 10701
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 2:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Tyson chandler is never going to be an offensive stud, but as he gets stronger, he is going to be a guy that gives you 12/10/2 every night. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SHAQ/KOBE=#1
Star Player
Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 3260
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 2:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Kareem would work well with Chandler because he is from LA? Wow, you really have me convinced.
Chandler is in his 5th season and has still shown no signs of an offensive game, and he has actually gotten worse since last season. Playing him and Kwame together would be a disaster for spacing, and it would allow teams to pressure Kobe even more.
Chandler can block shots, but he gets pushed around too easily. Sure he can rebound, but that really isn't a problem for us. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
lakers0505
Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 10701
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 2:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ^ He gets most of his points off, missed shots and nice inside passes, but the problem right now is that he cant finish strong enough, so he ends up getting fouled or blocked and doesnt get much. I saw it first hand, te bulls anouncers were talking about it ,during the caviliers , bulls game and i saw probably 3 easy oppurtunirtys were he had a chance for dunks/layups , but wasnt strong enough too go up and finish it. He'll give u 12 point , jus not right now in his career. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
magic_bryant
Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 18179
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 2:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| SHAQ/KOBE=#1 wrote: | Kareem would work well with Chandler because he is from LA? Wow, you really have me convinced.
Chandler is in his 5th season and has still shown no signs of an offensive game, and he has actually gotten worse since last season. Playing him and Kwame together would be a disaster for spacing, and it would allow teams to pressure Kobe even more.
Chandler can block shots, but he gets pushed around too easily. Sure he can rebound, but that really isn't a problem for us. |
Why be just a good rebounding team? Why not be the BEST rebounding team WITH the best offensive player in basketball?
The offense would be fine with guys like Cook being able to get more minutes and LO would be able to post up more. A guy like Sasha, who helps the spacing could be played more due to Chandler's D.
Ever notice that the offense runs smoothely when Sasha or Brian Cook are in? They alone help the spacing and the ball moves fluidly because of it.
Tyson
Cook
LO
Kobe
Sasha
Tyson alone makes that lineup possible cause Cook's rebounding is no longer a problem because LO and Tyson take care of it. Sasha's lack of foot speed isn't a problem because Tyson rotates as good as ANYONE.
_________________
Stephon Marbury on Kobe: "He's the only person on 'dis earth that can do 'dat. He guards people, like shuts 'em down. Then, to do 'dat on 'da offensive end. It's like 'Damn, I can't score on him AND he about to bust my ass." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SHAQ/KOBE=#1
Star Player
Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 3260
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 3:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| magic_bryant wrote: |
Why be just a good rebounding team? Why not be the BEST rebounding team WITH the best offensive player in basketball?
The offense would be fine with guys like Cook being able to get more minutes and LO would be able to post up more. A guy like Sasha, who helps the spacing could be played more due to Chandler's D.
Ever notice that the offense runs smoothely when Sasha or Brian Cook are in? They alone help the spacing and the ball moves fluidly because of it.
Tyson
Cook
LO
Kobe
Sasha
Tyson alone makes that lineup possible cause Cook's rebounding is no longer a problem because LO and Tyson take care of it. Sasha's lack of foot speed isn't a problem because Tyson rotates as good as ANYONE. |
Cook's problem isn't so much his rebounding. We are still a good rebounding team even though Cook plays 20+ minutes.
The problem is his defense. If you put Cook on the opposing teams best post player he gets abused. Put Chandler on him, and we still get abused, but we lose our shotblocking.
Put Kwame and Tyson out there and the offense falls to pieces.
As of right now with Mihm in the middle we hold teams to slightly fewer points than the Bulls with Chandler do. And the Bulls have plenty of good defenders (Duhon, Hinrich, Nocioni). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
