For a GM that is so hated around here, Mitch has had a number of steals in the last few years .....
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 5:20 pm    Post subject:

angel wrote:
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The relative cost for Mihm was low whe you consider GP and the late #1 also included Jumaine Jones and a PG rental. Chandler cost the Bulls Elton Brand. Dampier cost Dallas a couple of first round picks and eating a bad contract in addition to a big salary. Mihm was a real bargain. Getting Smush was outstanding. Cook has also been getting opportunities as a starter. That's very good from a late first round PF. As much as I like Butler, Kwame can play Tim Ducan, which is something Butler cannot do. Big bodies who can bang on the other team's PF are very valuable, despite the lack of numbers. Odom and Kwame are improving and Shaq is declining. Bynum and Turiaf are waiting in the wings. The Lakers have done an excellent job of reloading the front line. A Lakers fan has to feel there have been several additons to replace an aging Shaq.


Well said...

On drafting:
In another 3 years when we really see what we have in Bynum, Turiaf, Wafer, Bynum, Walton etc. I think that the opinion on Mitch's drafting acumen will be totally revamped by those who are so critical of Mitch today.

On trades:
In another couple of years when we see how Odom (26) works out at his new assignment as facilitator after absorbing the Triangle (which commonly takes 2 years to learn) along with development of Kwame (24) and Mihm (26) all still very young, along with the draft pick we get for the Shaq trade. I think maybe the same thing can be said regarding Mitch's trading ability as well.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 5:29 pm    Post subject:

_#1_ wrote:
wolf- Mihm was a nice add but I still hate the way the deal went down. First off the buzz coming out of the Kings was Vlade had serious drop off and health concerns. They were seemingly ignored. If we had kept the MLE we could have basically blackmailed the Celts.

Mihm had been on the blocks for his entire stay there. No takers at the price. Celts wanted him out. We could have had the threat of a near full MLE offer to a RFA. They would not have matched. They would absolutely not exceed the cap by that much in penalty. I was told that by a guy who knows. With that threat the original deal would have gone down, Payton's mouth means little. Having Banks now would be great.

Also, Mitch should have laid the groundwork with Payton. He coldcocked him. That is part of making the deal go down right.

We could have also used the MLE on Mihm and still have our #1 this year. We further could have done a deal that the Celts would have preferred using Payton and still taken Chucky and Banks. Relieving them of salary.

Mitch has done well in some things but I can think of more than a few things I wish had gone different.

I don't know about how much of this is true but I read that Ainge had actually offered Mihm more than the Lakers eventually gave him (Not sure if Ainge is liaing about this or not)

The Lakers offered him some 12-13 million over 3 years so the C's probably offered him more.

Before Vlade, I heard the Lakers had been interested in Mihm. Who really knows how it all went down, but from what I read and heard - the Lakers were talking with Mihm and the C's for a while (before the deal actually went down)

If Mitch tells Payton that he's going to be traded - Mr. Payton makes a wishlist that would basically consist of Cali teams. Clippers, Warriors and Kings. None of those teams were willing to deal a Center.

I would have liked Banks too. I do not know why Mitch never got him back. But I guess he got his strong "bullish" guard in Parker a season or so later.

We can probably make it all up by using the MLE money this season to sign Banks.

Parker-Banks combo would be solid IMO.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 5:50 pm    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
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If Mitch tells Payton that he's going to be traded - Mr. Payton makes a wishlist that would basically consist of Cali teams. Clippers, Warriors and Kings. None of those teams were willing to deal a Center.


Good point...

As an afterthough I've thought the same thing on this one. Mitch sort of had his hands tied on this one. What he did was gamble that it would work out, but as it turned out we end up with Jones which isn't a bad substitution. Hopefully the pick we end up with will help in the end.

But as you say, Payton would have put a monkey wrench into the works for sure if he were aprised of the trade in advance, which is something that was probably not considered by many who were critical of the outcome at the time (including me).
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 5:55 pm    Post subject:

In terms of drafting, while I like Turiaf and Wafer and root for them, what about passing on Ryan Gomes?

And saying there's no value in the 2nd round is nuts. Walton was taken in 2003 before Zaza Pachulia, Steve Blake, Kyle Korver, James Jones and Mo Williams, all of whom I would trade him for in a heartbeat. So even that pick was a mistake.

Not saying West never had mistakes, but his history of real talent at the end of rounds was uncanny. For every Billy Thompson and Mike McGee, there's a Vlade and Van Exel that far surpass it.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 6:33 pm    Post subject:

I like Mihm (I thank Kobe for flying all the way to Boston to get convince Mihm to sign), I thought getting Mihm was a steal but...didn't Mitch got himself a deal there where he could get ripped off??

We got JJ instead of Banks, I like JJ better actually but it's moot since we traded him away for nothing.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 7:10 pm    Post subject:

Aussiesuede wrote:
Uhhhhh...who is Frankie King??


sorry should've clarified that. 95 west draft pick
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 8:03 pm    Post subject:

Supposedly Kobe sought out Mihm.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 8:27 pm    Post subject:

and Mitch showed his incompetency when he signed Divac and Mckie....wasting the MLE on 2 players that could not play at all,

And no, wolf you are totally wrong, it was Dr Buss who refused to pay long term big contracts for non-all star players, so Mitch got stuck with short term deals, which he blew up 2 signings and lucked out a couple. Mitch is average at best, certaining not up to the high standards required of being the Lakers gm. The truth is, he turned Lakers into the Clippers of LA. pathetic.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 9:06 pm    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
thumpinghead wrote:
You know what Wolf, those deals fall in his lap because he's got an ideal job to begin with. I mean to be te GM of the LA Lakers, its pretty hard to mess up having the best players in the world want to play for you. Remember Shaq, Karl Malone or Gary Payton? What makes people frusterated is the fact that he manages to do only a satisfactory job in a position that should excel to begin with...

Did you see me mention Gary and Karl?

Guess what?

Chris Mihm and Smush Parker DID NOT fall into his lap. He actually aquired them himself through GM duties.

And if you think not making bad moves isn't part of a GM's duty - then you don't know how things are run.

How many times have people said Mitch can't make small pickups? That all his stuff falls into his lap.

How did Chris Mihm + Smush Parker (Combined less than the MLE) fall into his lap?

Let me guess. It wasn't Mitch that got them. It was someone else that we don't know of. Only the bad moves can be made by Mitch and the good one's are always someone else's doing. :roll:


I thought the critcism of Mitch wasn't the small pickups but the big ones. He can't pull off a blockbuster where he gets a good deal. Look at the Butler or Shaq trades and his lack of action during the deadline.

Mihm and Smush were good pickups. It's the transformation move that I don't think he can make. The Shaq trade or the Kobe draft.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 9:46 pm    Post subject:

I'm not a Mitch hater and like the Kwame trade. I don't even gripe about his drafts. What I do gripe about is this team would have much better depth if Mitch hadn't completely wasted the last two MLE's. Vlade and McKie were both washed up and that money could have been spent much wiser.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 10:37 pm    Post subject:

I thought signing Vlade was a great idea. Someone here said Vlade was damaged goods. Do you not remember that he hurt his back in training camp?

Mckie is playing just as much as Derek Anderson, as far as I know. At least Mckie is gone in two years. Anderson and Daniels wanted what?, five year committments? Give me a break.

What other veteran was there? Yes, this young team needed a veteran.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember reading that Phil was the one who prompted talking Mckie out of signing with New Jersey. You Mitch bashers always, always, always, conveniently hold him accountable for fulfilling the wishes of coaches. Phil does have input, as it should be.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 10:38 pm    Post subject:

I don't blame Mitch because I don't think he has full decision making power.

There is alot of 'Shadow GM'ing' (as Sky would say) going on. Be it Phil Jackson or apparently now Jimmy Buss.

Since Jerry West left the Lakers FO has been an absolute joke. When I analyze a GM there are three things that I look at.

Number one is the draft. The Lakers haven't produced an NBA starting caliber player in the draft since 96. (Fisher and KObe's year). They have passed up some pretty good players. Most notably Tayshaun Prince who Kupchek was set on drafting but Shadow GM Jackson opted for Rush. A guy that the Lakers didn't even workout.

Number 2 is trades. Lately it seems the Lakers have been getting fleeced on trades. I am not even getting into the Shaq trade. It was an absolute joke.

Number 3 is FA. Since West left the only Notable FA pickups were GP/Malone and that was facilatated by Shaq. Still remeber the DG slip up and who can forget Vlade and Mckie stealing money from the franchise.

The Lakers FO needs to get it together. Be it Mitch or the other Shadow GM's. Yeah Mihm and Smush were 'steals' compared to other players but looking at the Lakers whole book of work since West left it's suspect.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 2:47 am    Post subject:

can anyone here defend the Jumaine Jones trade? he played well last season and is doing even better now. still relatively young and not undeserving of a multi-year contract. we have Danny Ainge to thank for JJ and now the Bobcats can thank Mitch Kupchak.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 5:03 am    Post subject:

rscogold wrote:
can anyone here defend the Jumaine Jones trade? he played well last season and is doing even better now. still relatively young and not undeserving of a multi-year contract. we have Danny Ainge to thank for JJ and now the Bobcats can thank Mitch Kupchak.


Actually, yes, DG is playing even better. I value things like defense, hustle over three-point shooting. I'd rather resign DG over JJ to a multi-year contract.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 8:06 am    Post subject:

JJ is a better rebounder and 3 point shooter.
DG is the better man defender and mid-range scorer.

Overall, I think both are solid role players. I think Phil chose DG because he wouldn't have to learn the Tri and could bring a vet presence in the 2nd unit (very important)
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 9:00 am    Post subject:

Mark, if you want to ask me to give you a break, get your facts straight first. Derek Anderson didn't ask for a five year contract and yes he is helping more than McKie. What's your point? I didn't want Anderson either. I would have preferred a younger guard such as Pargo with the LLE and used the MLE for someone who could help at whatever position. Yes, I remember Vlade got hurt in training camp, but I also remember many saying he was washed up when the Lakers signed him and they were correct. Mitch has wasted the MLE the past two years and there is no way around it.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 9:19 am    Post subject: Re: For a GM that is so hated around here, Mitch has had a number of steals in the last few years .....

wolfpaclaker wrote:
1- Chris Mihm.

Considered a backup stiff when in Boston. Came over to LA for a 1st rounder and Gary Payton. Right now, Mihm is putting forth production that exceeds big contract Centers such as Eric Dampier and Tyson Chandler.

Funny thing - If you recall summer of 2004 (I Do) most were bashing Mitch for not getting Tyson or Damp and belittling Mihm.

Tyson Chandler ........ 9/1/05 6 $64 million '11

Erick Dampier ......... 8/25/04 7 $73 million '11

Considering the contract and production - Would we still want Damp or Tyson over Mihm? Would we ever be able to trade those players once signing them to that kind of contract?

Steal #1 - Chris Mihm

2- Smush Parker

Considered NDBL/SPL talent and nothing more than a backup TO machine (basically another Tierre Brown)

Cost us? Nothing basically. A vet min K that has an option for next season too. Excellent price and great production considering that.

Mitch was ripped for not signing - Daniels and Watson. Compare Watson and Daniels K's and production to Smush Parker.

Earl Watson ........... 9/7/05 5 $29 million '10

Antonio Daniels ....... 8/2/05 5 $30 million '10

Steal #2 - Smush Parker

So basically what other teams are paying 60+ million for (Tyson, Eric D to get a starting Center) and 25-30 million for (Watson, Daniels to get a combo guard) the Lakers are getting for 4 million and less than 1 million.

Mitch has made some mistakes. He is NOT the best GM in the NBA. He still has to learn and needs to step up more against Buss etc.

BUT those that raped him for the non-signings in the last 2 summers and that he has no ability to make sharp "pick ups" better come in here and admit that Mitch stole 2 players under the radar that are giving us exactly what you guys wanted for 10 times the money.


1. People often don't realize just how much we gave up to get Mihm. In Payton and Fox, we gave up a little over 10 million in expiring contracts. Plus, Payton still had value in the league, although it had declined. Just one season before he was traded for Ray Allen, after all. Then Mitch had to throw in a #1 pick and take Jones instead of Banks, the young PG we needed. So a veteran, former all star PG, a number one pick, and a total of over 10 million in expiring deals. Mihm has played well, but that package could have gotten us an all star at the deadline.

2. Mitch got lucky that Smush picked up his game. What GM in their right mind goes into the season with a guy who was consistently cut from other teams as his only true PG? Don't get me wrong, I like Smush, but let's face it, doing nothing to get your team some insurance in case he doesn't pan out is downright idiotic. But then again, Mitch did spend all of last season with a glut of small forwards and did nothing to fix it despite the glaring problems it was creating.

I really do like Smush and Mihm. Both give us more than what they are paid for, although I would like to see Mihm be able to finish games. Don't forget that we gave up a lot to get Mihm, and regardless of whether or not Mitch predicted that Smush would play well, having someone that untested as the teams only PG is very, very foolish.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 10:39 am    Post subject:

Mark Hurlbarf, Esq. wrote:
Quote:
I thought signing Vlade was a great idea. Someone here said Vlade was damaged goods. Do you not remember that he hurt his back in training camp?

Mailman04 wrote:
Quote:
Yes, I remember Vlade got hurt in training camp, but I also remember many saying he was washed up when the Lakers signed him and they were correct.


Vlade had been reasonable prodective and consistent the last 2 years of his career before coming to the Lakers and exhibited no signs of dropping of appreciably. Most felt that Vlade was still a top 10 center in the league at the time of the trade as well. Any time you can acquire a legit 7 foot center to can average around 10 ppg with 5-7 rpg and dish out assists at around 5 pg for MLE, you do it, imo. A proven legit center in the NBA who has not dropped off appreciably in performance is worth the MLE and that is what appeared to be the case when Vlade was signed.

Vlade's last 3 year stats (rounded off to the nearest whole number):

2002:
mpg: 30
ppg: 11
fg: 47%
ft: 62%
rpg: 8
apg: 4

2003:
mpg: 30
ppg: 10
fg: 47%
ft: 71%
rpg: 7
apg: 3

2004:
mpg: 30
ppg: 10
fg: 47%
ft: 65%
rpg: 7
apg: 5

As anyone can see Vlade's last three years (prior to our acquiring Vlade) were virtually identical, thus there was absolutely no sign of any dropoff in performance.

To take a bit further take a look at Vlade's CAREER averages:
ENTIRE CAREER:
mpg: 29
ppg: 12
fg: 50%
ft: 70%
rpg: 8
apg: 3

Vlade's LAST 3 YEARS, which were ALL virtually IDENTICAL are ALSO virtually IDENTICAL to his CAREER STATS, as well. So it would appear that Vlade was generally performing at his customary level of play up until we acquired him with no significant sign of slowing down appreciably and no sign of possibly injury. As we all know no one can predict or anticipate injury thus the Vlade signing was on paper a very solid move.

The stats don't lie and to acquire a 7 foot center who can pass the ball off like Vlade can in the Triangle is clearly a player we needed at the time. Vlade had the BEST season in his ENTIRE CAREER as far as ASSISTS were concerned JUST THE YEAR BEFORE AT 5.3 APG. So with virtually no dropoff in performance and with Vlade dishing out in the middle a healthy Vlade (which he was at the time of the acquisition) would have been a huge benefit to the Lakers, imo.

So it is OBVIOUS that Vlade was STILL performing at his CUSTOMARY LEVEL of play and with that and the clear common knowledge that Vlade was a ligit highly regarded center in the league there was no reason not to conclude that this was a solid acquisition.

If I recall correctly the vast majority of opinions before Vlade's injury occured was that this signing would DEFINITELY HELP the Lakers considering that the NEED for a legit CENTER was an obvious issue for the team at that time. We had not acquired Mihm at that point and it was critical that we acquire a legit center or simply face domination at that position by the opposition.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 11:12 am    Post subject:

DaggerInTheHeart wrote:
Once again, how can anyone say Jerry West didn't win Jack squat when no one else did in the 90's besides the Rockets and that time Jordan was not playing?

Are we forgetting who Jerry West was? or are we beginning to hate a person who helped us get Kobe and made sure we landed Shaq through Free Agency in 96?


I think what was being implied is that it took 10 years for West to put together a winner, so why can we not allow Mitch the same time period?? As for the bad drafts Mitch is being bashed for would somebody point out Mitch's draft failures and what players were taken after our pick that panned out better and how many other GM's passed on the same players Mitch passed on. Also if we are gonna compare West and Mitch's GM record lets look at the last couple of moves West has made for Memphis and see how those moves have fared. I am content with Mitch as our GM. Could he have done better? Of course but at least he hasn't signed a bunch of mediocre players to large contracts just to keep us in the playoffs and has kept focus on the long term.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 11:46 am    Post subject:

We still don' t know how the draft picks will do. Bynum is going to be at least a good center, but how good remains to be seen. The signs to this point indicate he can become something special. It's pretty safe to say Bynum was worth a top five pick. It's debatable, but it can be argued he was worth the top pick.

I like Turiaf where he was picked. He seems to be a first round talent.

Wafer is a selection based on upside potential. Second round picks are an opportunity to gamble. Coming out of H.S. Wafer was a top prospect. He had a great workout. He played well in the SPL against young Memphis guards with NBA experience. He has had trouble learning the triangle, which has limited his NBA playing time. He may turn out to be an excellent player. Time will tell.

As for drafting Gomes, the Lakers wanted to subtract two SFs. Why would they draft a SF when they needed a center, a PF and a SG? The Lakers drafted for need, but they also drafted for upside. If there were no minutes for JJ, how many minutes would there be for Gomes?
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 12:07 pm    Post subject: Re: For a GM that is so hated around here, Mitch has had a number of steals in the last few years .....

wolfpaclaker wrote:
1- Chris Mihm.

Considered a backup stiff when in Boston. Came over to LA for a 1st rounder and Gary Payton. Right now, Mihm is putting forth production that exceeds big contract Centers such as Eric Dampier and Tyson Chandler.

Funny thing - If you recall summer of 2004 (I Do) most were bashing Mitch for not getting Tyson or Damp and belittling Mihm.

Tyson Chandler ........ 9/1/05 6 $64 million '11

Erick Dampier ......... 8/25/04 7 $73 million '11

Considering the contract and production - Would we still want Damp or Tyson over Mihm? Would we ever be able to trade those players once signing them to that kind of contract?

Steal #1 - Chris Mihm

2- Smush Parker

Considered NDBL/SPL talent and nothing more than a backup TO machine (basically another Tierre Brown)

Cost us? Nothing basically. A vet min K that has an option for next season too. Excellent price and great production considering that.

Mitch was ripped for not signing - Daniels and Watson. Compare Watson and Daniels K's and production to Smush Parker.

Earl Watson ........... 9/7/05 5 $29 million '10

Antonio Daniels ....... 8/2/05 5 $30 million '10

Steal #2 - Smush Parker

So basically what other teams are paying 60+ million for (Tyson, Eric D to get a starting Center) and 25-30 million for (Watson, Daniels to get a combo guard) the Lakers are getting for 4 million and less than 1 million.

Mitch has made some mistakes. He is NOT the best GM in the NBA. He still has to learn and needs to step up more against Buss etc.

BUT those that raped him for the non-signings in the last 2 summers and that he has no ability to make sharp "pick ups" better come in here and admit that Mitch stole 2 players under the radar that are giving us exactly what you guys wanted for 10 times the money.


Landing an average center at an average price and not overpaying for Antonio Daniels doesn't give Mitch a pass in my book for getting the short end of possibly the worst trade in NBA history. Props for getting Smush and a solid draft, but Earl Watson is young and is worth the money he's getting. Face it you're not going to get good players by being cheap sooner or later you'll have to shell out money.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 12:47 pm    Post subject:

Cook was excellent for the position where he was drafted.
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