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| Send Kwame back to Washington for Caron? |
| No, Mitch made a good trade |
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92% |
[ 77 ] |
| Yes, Kwame is a bust. |
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7% |
[ 6 ] |
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| Total Votes : 83 |
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topramen78
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 Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 1:34 pm Post subject: Kwame Brown - Hindsight is 20/20 |
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A lot of you have bashed Mitch for trading one-of-a-king wunderkind Caron Butler (who I've always believed is a dime a dozen, to a degree).
Since we get to play armchair GM, and bash when a player plays badly, and praise when he plays now ...
If you had the chance to undo that trade and bring Caron back to LA for Kwame ... would you do it knowing now, what you know about Kwame? |
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20,000
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| Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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I was one of the ones who liked the trade from the beginning. So I would say no. Besides, you never trade big for small.
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Socks
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| Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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I've never been a fan of Kwame's and still am not sold on him, though definitely have to appreciate that he's been playing well of late.
That said, you can't fault mitch for the trade. Taking a gamble like that on an unproven big with upside was the way to go. Even if Kwame reverts back to his old ways, mitch had to do that trade at the time. Now if we coulda swung a deal for Darko also, I'd be an unabashed Mitch guy! |
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bounty
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| Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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Could Caron have gotten us Artest? I think he would of. Like Peja hes in the last year so Indy probably would have moved. Kwame has made everyone not named Kobe expendable this off season so for that things should work out
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Car54
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| Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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| bounty wrote: | | Could Caron have gotten us Artest? I think he would of. Like Peja hes in the last year so Indy probably would have moved. Kwame has made everyone not named Kobe expendable this off season so for that things should work out |
LMAO funny how Odom doesnt get that pass from you yet hes the big reason Kwame is playing well today |
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Billy
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| Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Hmmmm.... speaking of short memories ... only one vote for Butler ... |
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bounty
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| Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Car54 wrote: | | bounty wrote: | | Could Caron have gotten us Artest? I think he would of. Like Peja hes in the last year so Indy probably would have moved. Kwame has made everyone not named Kobe expendable this off season so for that things should work out |
LMAO funny how Odom doesnt get that pass from you yet hes the big reason Kwame is playing well today |
Its called opinion, please, no need for you and the kitty cat gang to flame.
peace
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sodapoppenski
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| Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Socks wrote: | I've never been a fan of Kwame's and still am not sold on him, though definitely have to appreciate that he's been playing well of late.
That said, you can't fault mitch for the trade. Taking a gamble like that on an unproven big with upside was the way to go. Even if Kwame reverts back to his old ways, mitch had to do that trade at the time. Now if we coulda swung a deal for Darko also, I'd be an unabashed Mitch guy! |
Pretty much what I was gonna say.
Also - the poll is a bit misleading because there's no mention of the fact
that Caron's contract was about to end and we wouldn't have matched.
I'm still not sold on Kwame either, but obviously I'm glad to see his recent
improvement and hope it holds up.
If the poll essentially said "If we could have kept Caron for three more
years, would you have moved him for Kwame" - it would be a more
interesting thing to ask.
Anyone with their head screwed on right likely thinks making the Kwame
trade was good - given that we were gonna lose Caron either way.
That doesn't mean everyone thinks Kwame is or will end up the more
valuable player. |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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| bounty wrote: | | Could Caron have gotten us Artest? I think he would of. |
If it came down to Caron or Peja, the Pacers go with Peja, as would most people. The only thing Caron was good at, scoring, Peja is better at.
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LakersInFour
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| Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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| encina1 wrote: | | I was one of the ones who liked the trade from the beginning. So I would say no. Besides, you never trade big for small. |
Ditto.
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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| sodapoppenski wrote: |
That doesn't mean everyone thinks Kwame is or will end up the more
valuable player. |
Based on Caron's one year with the Lakers, and Kwame's almost one year with the Lakers, Kwame has seemed to be the more valuable of the two. While there is still room for growth with both of them, a good big man is always more valuable than a good small.
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Car54
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| Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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| bounty wrote: | | Car54 wrote: | | bounty wrote: | | Could Caron have gotten us Artest? I think he would of. Like Peja hes in the last year so Indy probably would have moved. Kwame has made everyone not named Kobe expendable this off season so for that things should work out |
LMAO funny how Odom doesnt get that pass from you yet hes the big reason Kwame is playing well today |
Its called opinion, please, no need for you and the kitty cat gang to flame.
peace |
Ok tell me how kwames 6pts 6rebs season gets a pass & odoms 14pts 9rebs 6ast season doesnt? |
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sodapoppenski
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| Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | sodapoppenski wrote: |
That doesn't mean everyone thinks Kwame is or will end up the more
valuable player. |
Based on Caron's one year with the Lakers, and Kwame's almost one year with the Lakers, Kwame has seemed to be the more valuable of the two. While there is still room for growth with both of them, a good big man is always more valuable than a good small. |
I agree and have made that point many times.
I'm not saying I think Kwame is less valuable than Caron.
Just saying the poll and OP more or less imply that the results are
indicative of which player we think is better.
The landslide of Kwame votes is more a sign of people knowing we had
to move Caron than it is solely for Kwame over Caron.
I personally think they're roughly a wash right now.
For this season alone - Caron is a better player, but Kwame being a big
and a defensive-minded big puts him on even ground.
The difference is Kwame seems to have more room for improvement,
which would be the tiebreaker for me.
I'd choose Kwame over Caron - even given 3-year contracts for each.
BUT - my point is, the poll wouldn't be 10-to-1 in favor of Kwame if
it were worded that way - as far as which player (outside of contract
situations) people would prefer. |
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sodapoppenski
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| Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Car54 wrote: | | bounty wrote: | | Car54 wrote: | | bounty wrote: | | Could Caron have gotten us Artest? I think he would of. Like Peja hes in the last year so Indy probably would have moved. Kwame has made everyone not named Kobe expendable this off season so for that things should work out |
LMAO funny how Odom doesnt get that pass from you yet hes the big reason Kwame is playing well today |
Its called opinion, please, no need for you and the kitty cat gang to flame.
peace |
Ok tell me how kwames 6pts 6rebs season gets a pass & odoms 14pts 9rebs 6ast season doesnt? |
True, Kwame's not making drastically less than LO after all.
I'm guessing the go-to answer would be Kwame's post defense, although
I'm not so sure that's enough to make up the difference in those overall
numbers by LO  |
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bounty
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| Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Car54 wrote: | | bounty wrote: | | Car54 wrote: | | bounty wrote: | | Could Caron have gotten us Artest? I think he would of. Like Peja hes in the last year so Indy probably would have moved. Kwame has made everyone not named Kobe expendable this off season so for that things should work out |
LMAO funny how Odom doesnt get that pass from you yet hes the big reason Kwame is playing well today |
Its called opinion, please, no need for you and the kitty cat gang to flame.
peace |
Ok tell me how kwames 6pts 6rebs season gets a pass & odoms 14pts 9rebs 6ast season doesnt? |
this isnt about Lo. I would like to answer but the kitty cat gang continues to flame. You have your opinion, I have mine.
Peace
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Car54
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| Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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| sodapoppenski wrote: | | Car54 wrote: | | bounty wrote: | | Car54 wrote: | | bounty wrote: | | Could Caron have gotten us Artest? I think he would of. Like Peja hes in the last year so Indy probably would have moved. Kwame has made everyone not named Kobe expendable this off season so for that things should work out |
LMAO funny how Odom doesnt get that pass from you yet hes the big reason Kwame is playing well today |
Its called opinion, please, no need for you and the kitty cat gang to flame.
peace |
Ok tell me how kwames 6pts 6rebs season gets a pass & odoms 14pts 9rebs 6ast season doesnt? |
True, Kwame's not making drastically less than LO after all.
I'm guessing the go-to answer would be Kwame's post defense, although
I'm not so sure that's enough to make up the difference in those overall
numbers by LO |
I guess shoes and the others are right when they say he hates odom. |
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Car54
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| Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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| bounty wrote: | | Car54 wrote: | | bounty wrote: | | Car54 wrote: | | bounty wrote: | | Could Caron have gotten us Artest? I think he would of. Like Peja hes in the last year so Indy probably would have moved. Kwame has made everyone not named Kobe expendable this off season so for that things should work out |
LMAO funny how Odom doesnt get that pass from you yet hes the big reason Kwame is playing well today |
Its called opinion, please, no need for you and the kitty cat gang to flame.
peace |
Ok tell me how kwames 6pts 6rebs season gets a pass & odoms 14pts 9rebs 6ast season doesnt? |
this isnt about Lo. I would like to answer but the kitty cat gang continues to flame. You have your opinion, I have mine.
Peace |
it has nothing to do with opinion as you say. odom has performed all season at a higher level than kwame. now they're both playing at the levels we expected them to play but you say kwame is making everyone not named kobe tradable is crazy. how do you come up with this stuff? odom is the main reason kwame is playing well. odom is looking for kwame every time he touches the ball. |
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angel
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| Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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What a difference a couple of weeks make.
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rwongega
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| Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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| The Kwame business isn't really decisive but if he can keep this up for the rest of his time here, then it's a good trade. If this is another flash-in-the-pan episode of his career, then it's probably not such a good move. I'm hoping Kwame can play this way consistently from now on and maybe at a 15 footer to his arsenal in the offseason like Ben Wallace tried to do. |
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bounty
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| Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Car54 wrote: | | bounty wrote: | | Car54 wrote: | | bounty wrote: | | Car54 wrote: | | bounty wrote: | | Could Caron have gotten us Artest? I think he would of. Like Peja hes in the last year so Indy probably would have moved. Kwame has made everyone not named Kobe expendable this off season so for that things should work out |
LMAO funny how Odom doesnt get that pass from you yet hes the big reason Kwame is playing well today |
Its called opinion, please, no need for you and the kitty cat gang to flame.
peace |
Ok tell me how kwames 6pts 6rebs season gets a pass & odoms 14pts 9rebs 6ast season doesnt? |
this isnt about Lo. I would like to answer but the kitty cat gang continues to flame. You have your opinion, I have mine.
Peace |
it has nothing to do with opinion as you say. odom has performed all season at a higher level than kwame. now they're both playing at the levels we expected them to play but you say kwame is making everyone not named kobe tradable is crazy. how do you come up with this stuff? odom is the main reason kwame is playing well. odom is looking for kwame every time he touches the ball. |
IMO- When LO was playing well in march we were 500. LO has been unable as that "2nd star" to help get us over the 500 mark. All year.
Kwame starts to play good D and we win 4 games in a row. Kwames D is making LO better, not vice versa. Lo doesnt have to help as much. Lo is able to get better position leaking out, getting into position offensively b/c hes not pinned under the hoop as much.
We have lost games all year when LO had good games. we won games all year when LO bad games. We have not lost games when kwame plays well. No matter what LO does
Kwame has become our second best defender. That is our 2nd option. Couple games ago LO had 13 pts. 9 in the first quarter. we havent been missing O all year we have been missing that defensive presence. EVERYONE is now funneling their guy into the middle where kwame is cleaning it up on sheer size alone.
LO has indeed picked it up, but he isnt a difference maker. He is a complimentry 3rd staple. defense wins and kwames has made everyones better. take that out and we are still choking around 500.
the minute kwames defense slips (if it does) you will see the Lakers come back to 500. LO isnt a good enough star to help Kobe drag a team to where it needs to go.
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postandpivot
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| Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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| sodapoppenski wrote: | | Socks wrote: | I've never been a fan of Kwame's and still am not sold on him, though definitely have to appreciate that he's been playing well of late.
That said, you can't fault mitch for the trade. Taking a gamble like that on an unproven big with upside was the way to go. Even if Kwame reverts back to his old ways, mitch had to do that trade at the time. Now if we coulda swung a deal for Darko also, I'd be an unabashed Mitch guy! |
Pretty much what I was gonna say.
Also - the poll is a bit misleading because there's no mention of the fact
that Caron's contract was about to end and we wouldn't have matched.
I'm still not sold on Kwame either, but obviously I'm glad to see his recent
improvement and hope it holds up.
If the poll essentially said "If we could have kept Caron for three more
years, would you have moved him for Kwame" - it would be a more
interesting thing to ask.
Anyone with their head screwed on right likely thinks making the Kwame
trade was good - given that we were gonna lose Caron either way.
That doesn't mean everyone thinks Kwame is or will end up the more
valuable player. |
sodapop, I hear what you're saying, but I will say that anyone with an understanding of "you can't teach height". will understand, that even though we all loved what caron could do. he could never feel that Big man defensive void. Kwame without the offense of late has done that against all the main superstar bigs(minus i think elton brand). he has played them straight up, without a ton of double teams/help. Who in the league do you know besides one of the named Big Superstars, could pull that off? NO one. thats why he is so much more valuable then a short SF/SG like Butler.
lets be realistic, how many bigmen are even earning their check, that are not superstars or atleast stars? Camby( i guess cause he's always hurt, it kills his star status a bit), Ilgauskus, and brad miller. thats pretty much it. and guess what, no way we could get those guys for caron. not one of them. so Kwame was the best option. with his bad hands. its funny how people will rave about ben wallace, but the guy still can't score really. Its the same principle. if you can leave your big 1 on 1, against one of the stars/superstar bigs of the league, then you have a winner, its that simple. now if the guy can score 10 or more, and snag more then 6 boards, then thats a bonus.
So what is the debate even about really? we liked caron, but we didn't NEED caron. we needed a profit type more so then a caron. a guy who is content with coming off the pine putting up decent bench numbers, and playing good defense, thats it. at that position. but we were down two bigs. we needed 2 bigmen. 1 to defend the stars, and another as a backup to the Center spot and/or PF spot. thats what the lakers NEEDED.
and check out carons #'s. he's scoring well. but thats about it. his FG%is low, his 3pt% isn't great.
now you see what kwame CAN do after being in the offense for nearly a season, and with starting job and a ton of minutes,as of today. But he still has tremendous upside. thats the scary part.
check out two of kwame's stats that go right along with what I said is a great value that the lakers needed.
Defensive rebounds High-10boards vs Detroit on 03-04-06(against the wallace brothers),
Total Rebounds-13boards vs Minnesota and KG(superstarBig)
^^do you now get the point. |
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LakerJam
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| Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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| sodapoppenski wrote: | | Socks wrote: | I've never been a fan of Kwame's and still am not sold on him, though definitely have to appreciate that he's been playing well of late.
That said, you can't fault mitch for the trade. Taking a gamble like that on an unproven big with upside was the way to go. Even if Kwame reverts back to his old ways, mitch had to do that trade at the time. Now if we coulda swung a deal for Darko also, I'd be an unabashed Mitch guy! |
I'm still not sold on Kwame either, but obviously I'm glad to see his recent
improvement and hope it holds up.
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Based upon his POST-DEFENSE alone, how can anyone not be sold on Kwame Brown? Seriously, if you don't have a strong post defender, you're never winning a championship. Kwame's offense has finally been coming along, but the man has been playing man sized post defense all season long. He's always been worth the trade for that reason alone. He's right, though, no one seems to appreciate the defense he brings until and unless it's wrapped around offense.
Sad considering it's much harder to find a guy who can defend the post than it is to find guys willing and able to score.
I'm glad that 3rd year was guaranteed. |
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KoolMo
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| Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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| I don't mean to be a punk, but I'm hesitant to vote. It looks like Kwame is more valuable because of his low post defense. Caron would bring points and slasing, but defense ni the LP is invaluable in the Western Conference. Actually, I'm not scared to vote anymore. |
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Car54
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| Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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| bounty wrote: | | Car54 wrote: | | bounty wrote: | | Car54 wrote: | | bounty wrote: | | Car54 wrote: | | bounty wrote: | | Could Caron have gotten us Artest? I think he would of. Like Peja hes in the last year so Indy probably would have moved. Kwame has made everyone not named Kobe expendable this off season so for that things should work out |
LMAO funny how Odom doesnt get that pass from you yet hes the big reason Kwame is playing well today |
Its called opinion, please, no need for you and the kitty cat gang to flame.
peace |
Ok tell me how kwames 6pts 6rebs season gets a pass & odoms 14pts 9rebs 6ast season doesnt? |
this isnt about Lo. I would like to answer but the kitty cat gang continues to flame. You have your opinion, I have mine.
Peace |
it has nothing to do with opinion as you say. odom has performed all season at a higher level than kwame. now they're both playing at the levels we expected them to play but you say kwame is making everyone not named kobe tradable is crazy. how do you come up with this stuff? odom is the main reason kwame is playing well. odom is looking for kwame every time he touches the ball. |
IMO- When LO was playing well in march we were 500. LO has been unable as that "2nd star" to help get us over the 500 mark. All year. |
Your a joke for real. How is it that when we win and Odom plays well it wasnt because of Odom? But when we lose and he played good its because of Odom. Last time I checked Kobe is the one whos supposed to carry this team not Odom. Now where over 500 again and you say its because Kwame makes Odom better? WTF type of dumb logic is that? How the Bleep does Kwame defense make Odom a better offensive player? Your talking stupid real stupid. You act as if Odom poked your wife, What is it with you that you cant give the man credit, so you go and make an arse of yourself? Odom gets the defense to collapse on him then sets Kwame up for the easy bucket and you respond that Kwame's defense is making Odom better? Address what I said in the original post and stop getting off topic with your insane theories of what happens in the game. Kwame has been playing good for 4 games but you excuse that and say hes doing more than Odom???? Your a Joke. |
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topramen78
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| Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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| KoolMo wrote: | | I don't mean to be a punk, but I'm hesitant to vote. It looks like Kwame is more valuable because of his low post defense. Caron would bring points and slasing, but defense ni the LP is invaluable in the Western Conference. Actually, I'm not scared to vote anymore. |
But I think the point is...
Is it harder to find points and slashing or interior defense with marginal offense? I'd say the latter. By a wide margin. The Desmond Masons and Caron Butlers of the world are a dime a dozen. Almost EVERY team has one slashing and dashing 3.
Am I the only one that finds it interesting that it seemed as if almost EVERY poster included the Caron for Kwame trade as a reason for why Mitch sucks ... and now, 95% (42/45) of posters would do the trade!
If Kwame can become a 14 and 10 guy like Phil Jackson has suggested he might average next year ... the combination of that plus his post defense makes the Butler for Kwame trade HUGELY lopsided in the Lakers' favor.
Kudos Mitch, at least on this one. |
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