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LA Lakers 41790 Sixth Man
Joined: 29 Jun 2005 Posts: 68
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Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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BraveHeartII wrote: | da ocho wrote: | BraveHeartII wrote: | da ocho wrote: | this completely boggles my mind. young, cheap better gordan for old, expensive and worst francis? |
Younger and cheaper, yes. Better? No. Look at the stats and think for yourself, instead of falling for the media rhetoric. Gordon is a 40% 17 PPG, low assist, low rebound matador. Offensively, Francis is better in all aspects, and about the same at D. |
braveheart there are things about basketball not found on the stat sheet. this is why you love stephon marbury so much. gordan has a better attitude, is more open to coaching, has more of a clutch factor than francis, and is a creative, dependeble go-to scorer. that coupled with his age and contract make him a much better score for the knicks than for the bulls. |
More open to coaching? Cook is more open to coaching than Kwame, does that make him better? No.
More clutch is arguable. And looking at their stats, it's clear that even if Gordon is clutch, he's clutch in just one area.
Age and contract, I already conceded that, so you can't count that twice. I was arguing the better part. The problem I had was that you automatically bought into the media's brainwashing, even though Gordon's stats were clearly inferior, and doesn't even make up for that on D. |
I totally agree. When did Francis become a non-skilled bad player. I'll admit that I even fell for the media's ploy and though Francis just killed ur franchise, but look at him he can play and I don't recall him pulling a TO or Artest |
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LA Lakers 41790 Sixth Man
Joined: 29 Jun 2005 Posts: 68
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Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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sry typo I meant thought instead of though |
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LakerJam Franchise Player
Joined: 02 Aug 2002 Posts: 18408 Location: Sherman Oaks, CA
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Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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Oh come on, guys. Ben Gordon is not a better player than Steve Francis. It's a ridiculous statement.
Francis has career #s of 19/6/6.3 with 1.52 stls.
Gordon's numbers are 16/2.7/2.5 with .79 stls.
Their numbers aren't even close and while Steve tries to score too much, he does rebound, dish, get steals and at least play a modicum of defense. Can't say the same for Ben. Ben is the perfect 6th man off the bench - instant offense, but only offense.
Just because you don't like a player personally, has nothing to do with his play. I'm certainly no Francis fan, but I can acknowledge that the guy was a superstar for a reason. Ben scores. Doesn't rebound. Doesn't dish. Doesn't defend. Ben Gordon is not on the verge of becoming a franchise caliber player and while neither is Francis anymore, he's still the better overall player between the 2. |
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gng930 Franchise Player
Joined: 13 Apr 2001 Posts: 11475
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Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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Oh man this is one of the most ridiculous deals I've ever heard of on Chicago's end. The ONLY reason Chicago does this is out of pure guilt for stealing those lottery picks.
The reason they want to move Gordon is because he is a poor fit at SG next to Hinrich. How does Francis help this?
In order to make this deal, Chicago loses A LOT of their cap room. The same cap room that makes them the most attractive partner in a deal with Minnesota for KG this summer. The same cap room that helps them get a true post scorer to start next to Chandler. And they give it up for Steve Francis, a perennial loser, known pouter, and borderline team cancer?
Of course as a Laker fan I pray for this to happen because it increases our chances for KG and because it'll create an even bigger glut for them at PG; a glut that will convince them to trade Duhon. _________________ Luxury Tax/FA Spreadsheet (Save to your Google Drive to edit) |
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CorkyTomjanovich Star Player
Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 3486
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Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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It is obviously BS, and even if it were true, the salaries have to be at least somewhat close. _________________ JVG FOR LAKERS HEAD COACH |
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LakersInFour Star Player
Joined: 16 Apr 2001 Posts: 6725 Location: New Mexico
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Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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CorkyTomjanovich wrote: | It is obviously BS, and even if it were true, the salaries have to be at least somewhat close. |
No they don't. Chicago is far enough under the cap that they can absorb Francis' salary without exceeding the cap. Thus, they can trade with anyone they want, and the salaries DO NOT have to match, or be somewhat close.
Not that this has only been stated several times in this thread already. _________________ "It’s like going to the Getty and standing in front of Van Gogh’s Irises while some schmuck next to you critiques individual brush strokes. Just shut up already. The more you talk, the more you embarrass yourself." |
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lakers0505 Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 10701
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Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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LakersInFour wrote: | CorkyTomjanovich wrote: | It is obviously BS, and even if it were true, the salaries have to be at least somewhat close. |
No they don't. Chicago is far enough under the cap that they can absorb Francis' salary without exceeding the cap. Thus, they can trade with anyone they want, and the salaries DO NOT have to match, or be somewhat close.
Not that this has only been stated several times in this thread already. |
Let me visually show u what we mean. Lets say the
Salary cap = 50 million
Total slaries on team A= 40 million
Salary Cap= 50 million
Total Salaries on team B=100 million
Team B, wants too trade a player @ 9 million too Team A, which would send player @ 4 million salary.
What happens is that since Team A is under the cap, they have 10 million too work with , so then you would add on 5 million too Team A's salary, and they would be @ 45 million still under the cap of 50 million.
Now team B, would save money @ their salary would be @ 95 million.
Still not postive, about this part, dont the salary have too be within a certain percentage because in this case the knicks are way of the cap. |
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LakersInFour Star Player
Joined: 16 Apr 2001 Posts: 6725 Location: New Mexico
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Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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lakers0505 wrote: | LakersInFour wrote: | CorkyTomjanovich wrote: | It is obviously BS, and even if it were true, the salaries have to be at least somewhat close. |
No they don't. Chicago is far enough under the cap that they can absorb Francis' salary without exceeding the cap. Thus, they can trade with anyone they want, and the salaries DO NOT have to match, or be somewhat close.
Not that this has only been stated several times in this thread already. |
Let me visually show u what we mean. Lets say the
Salary cap = 50 million
Total slaries on team A= 40 million
Salary Cap= 50 million
Total Salaries on team B=100 million
Team B, wants too trade a player @ 9 million too Team A, which would send player @ 4 million salary.
What happens is that since Team A is under the cap, they have 10 million too work with , so then you would add on 5 million too Team A's salary, and they would be @ 45 million still under the cap of 50 million.
Now team B, would save money @ their salary would be @ 95 million. |
That's correct. If a team is under the cap, they can take on any amount of salary from a trade partner as long as they do not exceed the cap in doing so.
Quote: | Still not postive, about this part, dont the salary have too be within a certain percentage because in this case the knicks are way of the cap. |
Nope. _________________ "It’s like going to the Getty and standing in front of Van Gogh’s Irises while some schmuck next to you critiques individual brush strokes. Just shut up already. The more you talk, the more you embarrass yourself." |
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jwbrown77 Star Player
Joined: 21 Jun 2004 Posts: 3271
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Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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TERRIBLE deal for Chicago. Can't be right. |
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Socks Franchise Player
Joined: 01 Feb 2006 Posts: 10761 Location: Bay Area, CA
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Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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Terrible for Chicago if they do it.
I agree with LakerJam - Francis is the better player. But the thing is, I just don't see what this does for Chicago.
- They need big guys, not guys who are gonna jack up more outside shots.
- Their cap room takes a huge hit.
- Francis has been a locker room cancer. Gordan and Skiles had issues between them about Gordon's shot selection and lack of defensive intensity. Man, wait until Skiles gets a load of Francis and his black hole style offense. Wait 'til Francis starts pouting when Skiles takes away some of his minutes and gives them to Chris Duhon. It'll be Larry Brown/Stephon Marbury lite. |
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wolfpaclaker Retired Number
Joined: 29 May 2002 Posts: 58318
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Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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My guess is that this deal could lead to Gordon + Chandler for Francis + Frye.
Chicago saves themselves from a big K to Tyson that they somewhat regret giving and at the same time get an All-Star production player that they currently lack. The youth is still there with Frye.
New York does it because they want a guard that will match Isiah's model and well they really need to improve defensively. |
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lakers0505 Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 10701
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Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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wolfpaclaker wrote: | My guess is that this deal could lead to Gordon + Chandler for Francis + Frye.
Chicago saves themselves from a big K to Tyson that they somewhat regret giving and at the same time get an All-Star production player that they currently lack. The youth is still there with Frye.
New York does it because they want a guard that will match Isiah's model and well they really need to improve defensively. |
man serirously i cant imagine begin a chicago bulls fans right now, they messed up on two top 5 picks in 1 year, with curry and chandler....but then again 6/8, u always have too pay up....unless your the lakers |
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jbjb Star Player
Joined: 11 Apr 2001 Posts: 5401
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Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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"Chicago willing to take on the salary for a good chance at a lotto pick" makes sense to me. |
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Jacko Star Player
Joined: 25 Oct 2005 Posts: 5159
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Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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if this trade is real, then I think Mitch isn't bad after all!! |
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DancingBarry Editor-in-Chief
Joined: 07 Sep 2001 Posts: 40188 Location: O.C.
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Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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angrypuppy wrote: | This would only make sense if an unconditional Knick first rounder is thrown in for next year, and if the Bulls are convinced that the Knicks will continue to implode. That would give the Bulls an excellent shot at Greg Oden. |
BINGO.
I don't think anyone would do a Francis for Gordon trade straight up. This about a high lotto pick when a real Franchise player comes out in the draft next year... One small step backwards, but potentially a huge step forward. |
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LakerJam Franchise Player
Joined: 02 Aug 2002 Posts: 18408 Location: Sherman Oaks, CA
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Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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lakers0505 wrote: | man serirously i cant imagine begin a chicago bulls fans right now... |
Why? Their team is clearly an up and coming young team that plays great defense. I wouldn't be feeling too bad if I was a Bulls fan at all. |
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ocho Retired Number
Joined: 24 May 2005 Posts: 53713
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Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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BraveHeartII wrote: | da ocho wrote: | BraveHeartII wrote: | da ocho wrote: | this completely boggles my mind. young, cheap better gordan for old, expensive and worst francis? |
Younger and cheaper, yes. Better? No. Look at the stats and think for yourself, instead of falling for the media rhetoric. Gordon is a 40% 17 PPG, low assist, low rebound matador. Offensively, Francis is better in all aspects, and about the same at D. |
braveheart there are things about basketball not found on the stat sheet. this is why you love stephon marbury so much. gordan has a better attitude, is more open to coaching, has more of a clutch factor than francis, and is a creative, dependeble go-to scorer. that coupled with his age and contract make him a much better score for the knicks than for the bulls. |
More open to coaching? Cook is more open to coaching than Kwame, does that make him better? No.
More clutch is arguable. And looking at their stats, it's clear that even if Gordon is clutch, he's clutch in just one area.
Age and contract, I already conceded that, so you can't count that twice. I was arguing the better part. The problem I had was that you automatically bought into the media's brainwashing, even though Gordon's stats were clearly inferior, and doesn't even make up for that on D. |
francis has done wonders for the knicks. :roll:
the "media hype" has nothing to do with my opinion on this issue. if the media influenced my opinion on basketball player i surely woudln't be a laker fan or a kobe bryant fan. you accuse me of jumping to conclusions based on the media however you jumped to conclusions and assumed that i was being brainwashed by the media (even though you had no knowledge of this). that's hypocrisy...and it weakens your argument (and you made a decent one).
steve francis is better at aspects of the game than gordon. however i think they are pretty close right now and gordon is already better in some ways than francis. if i were chicago i would NEVER complete that deal...because it's a bad deal for them. to me, francis is a non-impact player with an impact player's contract. i think he has the tendency to cause more harm than good despite his stats. thats why houston got rid of him and thats why orlando got rid of him. that's also why the knicks are getting rid of him. _________________ 14-5-3-12 |
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