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shiznak
Star Player
Joined: 09 Oct 2002
Posts: 1625
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 Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 1:56 am Post subject: |
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| vanexelent wrote: | | Quote: | | Who knows where it began. I could counter you with what Shaq did during preseason....."Pay Me, @%&^$!" ring a bell? I'm just glad the Lakers didn't fold like countless other professional teams would have, and pay that Ingrate to lead our team into oblivion. Kudos to the front office. |
You could argue about money, but Dr. Buss is still paying Odom, Kwame and Brian Grant and they haven't lead our team to a championship. The Lakers obviously made the right decision between the choices they had. But, Shaq has certainly not lead the Heat into oblivion. They are on the brink of a Finals appearance. Shaq's 5th in 7 seasons and 6th in his career. He's lazy, he's fat, he's comes to camp out of shape...but he certainly is a winner. |
You are fooling yourself if you think that we could have gotten the same effort from Snaq as Miami. It is quite possible that Snaq would be retired by now had he stayed. He would not have gotten in shape like he did for Miami, and he would not have deferred to Kobe like he is doing for Wade.
Imagine our team with no Kobe, and a retired Snaq making 30-40 mil a year..... Oblivion indeed.
_________________
Chris Mihm - "...the reason he's been forced to take as many shots as he has is because our offense tends to stagnate and then we just have a tendency to throw him the ball. When we don't keep moving, then he's kind of forced to get something up." |
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Sonicc64
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Joined: 19 Jul 2003
Posts: 4028
Location: Delaware
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 2:36 am Post subject: |
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| How true blue laker fans can still root for Snaq and snake-haired Riles is "unlakerable". |
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ACGreen'svcard
Starting Rotation
Joined: 14 May 2006
Posts: 491
Location: newport beach
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 3:26 am Post subject: |
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| thetin31 wrote: | | Hye4life wrote: |
1. Lakers did not let shaq go, he DEMANDED a trade.
2. He ripped the Lakers organization for over a year.
3. He constantly came into camp out of shape probably costing us another championship.
4. He would not accept that fact that he was no longer the best player on the team and needed to let the offense run through Kobe.
5. And most importantly, he is no longer a Laker and there is no reason that any Lakers fan MUST root for him and stop hating him. On the contrary, the hate should increase because of what he did to the Lakers organization. |
thank you, i agree completely |
say it louder! say it louder! Speak the truth! |
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prisma8slg
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Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 4664
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 3:46 am Post subject: |
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Shaq was my favorite player when he was a Laker and when he left the organization (I won't put the blame solely on him, there's plenty to go around with Kobe/Shaq, Phil & Dr. Buss) he didn't leave on the best of terms. Yeah, he was childish in refusing to acknowledge Kobe for over a year, but that's who Shaq is. He's always been like that -- the only difference now is that it was directed at the Lakers.
I want him to do well in Miami and if he wins a ring, good for him. I'm not rooting for the Heat to lose because he's on the Heat. If you want to, that's fine -- just don't expect me to. and don't imply that I'm any less of a Laker fan because I want the Heat to win. Last time I checked, the Lakers are out of the playoffs and unless the past few weeks have been a horrible dream -- I'm not going to wake up and they're going to be in the Finals. and since they're not -- I'm pulling for Miami.
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"I define success by championships, by winning..." Kobe Bryant
"I've seen it all. Sasha dunked on somebody," Kobe Bryant said. "I'm ready to retire now." |
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Texas_Pete
Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 12825
Location: Somewhere watching a Laker game
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 4:15 am Post subject: |
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Snaq had a subtle dig on Kobe again. Last night BSPN reported that Wade was his best teammate ever... Paraphrasing: "I never had one argument with him. Not even close. I am not used to that coming from a 2 guard." Or something to that effect.
Just as I was about to let my dislike of him go  |
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Zhengi
Star Player
Joined: 06 Sep 2004
Posts: 6445
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 4:30 am Post subject: |
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| prisma8slg wrote: | Shaq was my favorite player when he was a Laker and when he left the organization (I won't put the blame solely on him, there's plenty to go around with Kobe/Shaq, Phil & Dr. Buss) he didn't leave on the best of terms. Yeah, he was childish in refusing to acknowledge Kobe for over a year, but that's who Shaq is. He's always been like that -- the only difference now is that it was directed at the Lakers.
I want him to do well in Miami and if he wins a ring, good for him. I'm not rooting for the Heat to lose because he's on the Heat. If you want to, that's fine -- just don't expect me to. and don't imply that I'm any less of a Laker fan because I want the Heat to win. Last time I checked, the Lakers are out of the playoffs and unless the past few weeks have been a horrible dream -- I'm not going to wake up and they're going to be in the Finals. and since they're not -- I'm pulling for Miami. |
So that makes you a Shaq fan, doesn't it?
As for everyone else who is cheering for Shaq, what he accomplished here in Los Angeles has nothing to do with what he is doing with the Heat. When he retires, he's going to the HOF and the Lakers will retire his jersey, but until that happens, people can dislike him for all he wants.
He disrepected the Lakers, the owner, the FO, Kobe, and even the city of LA. If you can still respect a guy who would go out of his way to bash you, then all you're showing is that you need to wise up.
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vanexelent
Retired Number
Joined: 17 May 2005
Posts: 30081
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 am Post subject: |
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| shiznak wrote: | | vanexelent wrote: | | Quote: | | Who knows where it began. I could counter you with what Shaq did during preseason....."Pay Me, @%&^$!" ring a bell? I'm just glad the Lakers didn't fold like countless other professional teams would have, and pay that Ingrate to lead our team into oblivion. Kudos to the front office. |
You could argue about money, but Dr. Buss is still paying Odom, Kwame and Brian Grant and they haven't lead our team to a championship. The Lakers obviously made the right decision between the choices they had. But, Shaq has certainly not lead the Heat into oblivion. They are on the brink of a Finals appearance. Shaq's 5th in 7 seasons and 6th in his career. He's lazy, he's fat, he's comes to camp out of shape...but he certainly is a winner. |
You are fooling yourself if you think that we could have gotten the same effort from Snaq as Miami. It is quite possible that Snaq would be retired by now had he stayed. He would not have gotten in shape like he did for Miami, and he would not have deferred to Kobe like he is doing for Wade.
Imagine our team with no Kobe, and a retired Snaq making 30-40 mil a year..... Oblivion indeed. |
Yes, the senario you depict would be worth the term "oblivion". However, why would Shaq be retired and the Lakers be without Kobe? Shaq was inspired to get back into shape (for season 1 anyway), when traded to Miami. There is no reason to believe that IF the Lakers had chose to keep Shaq and let Kobe walk for nothing in return (highly unlikely), I'm certain that Shaq would have gotten into shape in no time.
And to be honest, this '08 plan would be alot more attainable with Shaq here, rather than Kobe. Players in the league would love to play with Shaq...until they discover they no longer can play with him. You got to believe that LeBron James would jump at the chance to come to the Lakers if Shaq were here and no Kobe. A) He would still get a lucrative deal through the Lakers, B) He would get his millions in bonus money through Nike and C) He would probably be playing under Phil Jackson, surrounded by a bunch of role players.
Dwayne Wade is lucky to have Shaq at the beginning of Wade's career and at the end of Shaq's. Here's why. Shaq has always played extremely well with an All-Star shooting guard (Penny and Kobe). They both got Shaq to the Finals, while Kobe was the only one to help him win. But after a few seasons, both Penny and Kobe and their respective franchises were all against Shaq and made the decision of which player to keep. Each chose the All-Star shooting guard. Wade will only play with Shaq for about 4 years max. He will always be in the "honeymoon" stage of their relationship. In addition, Shaq completely allows Wade to take the scoring lead. Shaq doesn't demand the ball as he once did. This is how, I believe, the Heat are so successful. Can you imagine the possibilty of Kobe dropping 40+ a night, with Shaq still getting 22 ppg and 10 rpg? |
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re4ee
Franchise Player
Joined: 07 Mar 2005
Posts: 12237
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 8:23 am Post subject: |
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| vanexelent wrote: | | TheRod wrote: | | vanexelent wrote: | | Vlade wrote: | ^what he did to the Lakers organization? How about 3 titles! I am eternally grateful for that, and believe that all this petty bickering will cease in years to come.
As for breaking up the championship team... Kobe is as much to blame as Shaq... the way I see it they were both a couple of selfish babies who couldn't recognize what a good thing they had going. |
Absolutely. Kobe was a FA so he had that over the Laker's head at the time. If Shaq was not traded before Kobe entered Free Agency, he would have walked and the Lakers would have nothing. They chose to trade Shaq because Kobe wanted him gone and they felt that after 2 consecutive non-championship seasons, a change was in order.
As for Shaq "demanding" a trade; it wasn't his idea in the first place. He only demanded a trade after Mitch Kupchak went public with the notion that the Lakers were willing to accept a trade for Shaq. How should have Shaq felt? How would Kobe have felt if Mitch told the media that "we would definitely consider trading Kobe?" Kobe would demand a trade immediately. Hell, Lamar Odom would demand a trade if it were him in that situation.
You can't forget all the joy Shaq brought this city. We are fortunate to have had him when he was dominating the league. We are even more fortunate to still have the best player in the league on our team. How many teams in history can afford to lose the MDE and STILL have the best player in the world in their lineup? |
Somewhat true.....but not really. Shaq made his intentions known in his press conference after losing to the Pistons in the Finals. If I remember correctly, the first words out of his mouth were:
"First off I gotta worry about the most important thing....ME, and what's best for me." (not an exact quote, but along those lines). He wanted out, even then.....he knew the Lakers had already chosen Kobe over him, and that Philip would not return. |
Either way you put it, the Lakers made it known to him that he was not in their future. How is that his choice then? He reacted to what was presented to him. That quote sounds rather selfish of him, but both the Lakers, Phil and Kobe were all thinking the same thing as far as themselves. Kobe was the most selfish person on the team in '04, with what he put his family and team through. That was a disaster. |
A little revisionist, no? Shaq tried to force the issue regarding Kobe's pending FA, before the season, with his demands that the Lakers re-negotiate HIS contract, 3 years before it was to expire! He cursed at Dr. Buss in the PRE-SEASON, because Kobe had hinted at testing out the FA waters, as his contract WAS due to expire! Buss even offered to negotiate, but Shaq insisted that he be extended a MAX offer, knowing full well that the Lakers HAD to extend a competitive offer to Kobe, AND needed to start working towards a future with at least some cosideration for cap-space!
SHAQ tied everyone's hands with his demands, and when Dr. Buss cut the negotiations off because of Shaq's recalcitrance, he started demanding a trade. The whole idea that Kobe would refuse the Lakers' offer if Shaq remained was entirely a media invention. Shaq wanted out, because he knew that the Lakers were going to do everything in their power to re-sign Kobe, and instill a new system featuring Kobe's game, that was the final blow to the BIG EGO, no more Phil to baby him and stroke his enormous ego, no more triangle where Kobe would be forced to get the ball to him, and a probable implementation of an up-tempo game which would expose Shaq's physical decline. THAT's why he wanted out, not because Kobe wanted him out! :roll: |
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Hye4life
Starting Rotation
Joined: 19 Jun 2005
Posts: 469
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 9:03 am Post subject: |
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| laker4life wrote: | | Hye4life wrote: | | prisma8slg wrote: | | Hye4life wrote: |
5. And most importantly, he is no longer a Laker and there is no reason that any Lakers fan MUST root for him and stop hating him. On the contrary, the hate should increase because of what he did to the Lakers organization. |
and there's also not a rule saying that I should hate Shaq because I'm a Laker fan, because I don't! |
I don't know what to say but that if your a fan of the organization and a player of another team badmouths your favorite organization over a year, I would find it reasonable that the fan would dislike that player. Think of it this way, if Ray Allen had ripped the Lakers for over a year I would think that a Lakers fan would not like him. |
It's not that simple. His hate towards this organization is due to Kobe and the Lakers decision involving Kobe. If there was no Kobe, Shaq would not ripped the organization. Shaq doesn't hate the Lakers. He hated Kobe. |
It IS that simple. His hate was not towards the organization? Are you kidding me? Have you even seen his comments? Where he ripped the owner and the team for choosing Kobe over him? And contrary to popular belief, the organization chose Kobe over him. The Lakers organization was at a point where they had to choose and they chose Kobe plain and simple. Instead of acting maturely he acted like a child.
Another thing, Kobe IS here and he IS a part of this organization so even if you choose to ignore the countless times he ripped the organization and say that he only hated kobe, you have to realize that by ripping Kobe he was badmouthing the Lakers overall.
By the way do you remember Shaq calling LA fake and Miami real? |
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Hye4life
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Joined: 19 Jun 2005
Posts: 469
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 9:21 am Post subject: |
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Hey Vlade, thanks for the response. I am glad that Kobe is still on the team too. You don't think he would have stayed if the Lakers made the decision to not trade Shaq? Of course not, why would he? He is arguably the best player in the game and Shaq did not want to adjust and still thought of himself as the MDE. Another thing, IF Kobe had left he wouldn't be opening his mouth like Shaq did and I respect Kobe for that.
You may not take Shaq's words seriously, but the problem is that he has tainted the great Lakers reputation for years to come and for that I won't forgive him.
Also, I could care less what Kobe did to Shaq and what Phil did to Kobe as long as they don't think that they are bigger than the team. If Shaq had just ripped Kobe I still wouldn't like him because I'm a Kobe fan but my hate wouldn't be as deep and just like you said in a couple of years I would come to forgive him and appreciate all the wonderful things he had done for the organization. However, what he did was he not only ripped Kobe but he ripped the organization, the owner, the general manager, and worst of all the city of LA.
Finally, it is not about protecting Kobe or liking shaq. It is about Shaq and the Lakers organization. I don't think I can ever like the Lakers AND Shaq which I believe is the view some members hold. |
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Lakerlyds
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Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Posts: 19
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 9:25 am Post subject: |
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Hi -- new(er) poster here, although I'm on here a lot getting "informed" Love this site and it's passionate and knowledgeable members!
I hardly EVER post but I had to break my silence today to respond to a pet peeve of mine -- the old, incorrect but taken for truth comment that "Kobe ratted out Shaq to the cops". Kobe did NOT rat out anyone.
If you'd followed the case as closely as I and a few of the more prolific posters on this site (yes, I lurked at the court t.v. site too!  ), you'd know this. Shaq was never in any danger of being arrested for ANYTHING let alone for anything connected to Kobe's case -- usually what "ratting out" implies!
Rather, his comments (which incidentally were not even deemed important enough to make a part of ANY record until right around the time the desperate and imcompetent investigators were trying to dig up dirt on Kobe from, among others -- yep, you guessed it! none other than SHAQ, who to his credit refused to cooperate) were simply those of a scared young man watching a nightmare unfold due to his STUPIDITY and yes, probably arrogance in thinking his adultery would never, COULD never come back to haunt him! These ALLEGED comments (couldn't be clearly heard on the illegal tape the cops submitted) were along the lines of "man, are you kidding me??!!! I shoulda done what (inaudible) does in these situations (adultery NOT anything worse) and paid her off. She's saying I did WHAT???!!"
Stupid? ABSOLUTELY! "ratting out" -- I don't think so!
Although I disagree with the poster vlade and others -- I'm sooooo rooting for Shaq to lose, just as I'm rooting for Raja and Stevie to lose due to my fanatic love for my team the LAKERS -- I just wanted to say I do respect your right to hold an opinion which differs from mine . . .
Sorry for the interruption and now back to your regurlarly scheduled programming . . .  |
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laker4life
Star Player
Joined: 26 Nov 2001
Posts: 7324
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 9:34 am Post subject: |
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| Hye4life wrote: | | laker4life wrote: | | Hye4life wrote: | | prisma8slg wrote: | | Hye4life wrote: |
5. And most importantly, he is no longer a Laker and there is no reason that any Lakers fan MUST root for him and stop hating him. On the contrary, the hate should increase because of what he did to the Lakers organization. |
and there's also not a rule saying that I should hate Shaq because I'm a Laker fan, because I don't! |
I don't know what to say but that if your a fan of the organization and a player of another team badmouths your favorite organization over a year, I would find it reasonable that the fan would dislike that player. Think of it this way, if Ray Allen had ripped the Lakers for over a year I would think that a Lakers fan would not like him. |
It's not that simple. His hate towards this organization is due to Kobe and the Lakers decision involving Kobe. If there was no Kobe, Shaq would not ripped the organization. Shaq doesn't hate the Lakers. He hated Kobe. |
It IS that simple. His hate was not towards the organization? Are you kidding me? Have you even seen his comments? Where he ripped the owner and the team for choosing Kobe over him? And contrary to popular belief, the organization chose Kobe over him. The Lakers organization was at a point where they had to choose and they chose Kobe plain and simple. Instead of acting maturely he acted like a child.
Another thing, Kobe IS here and he IS a part of this organization so even if you choose to ignore the countless times he ripped the organization and say that he only hated kobe, you have to realize that by ripping Kobe he was badmouthing the Lakers overall.
By the way do you remember Shaq calling LA fake and Miami real? |
Yeah, but do you also remember what he said about Orlando when he left. He basically said the same thing. He continues to have a home there and he talked about buying the organization.
Don't take every word literally. |
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MIMLaker
Franchise Player
Joined: 18 Jul 2001
Posts: 10015
Location: Los Angeles/ Alhambra, CA
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 9:52 am Post subject: |
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For those who've forgotten, a refresher quiz:
(1) How much was Shaq making in player salary his last year with the Lakers?
(2) How many years did he have left on his contract at that time?
(3) How much would he earn from the Lakers those years?
(4) How many games did he miss in the prior three seasons before the trade?
(5) How much money did he demand for his SECOND extension with the team?
(6) How much did Dr. Buss offer on that extension?
(7) How many games did Shaq miss his first two seasons with Miami?
(8) How much did Shaq agree to sign for at Miami?
(9) Which was greater per year -- the annual salary of the remaining years on Shaq's then-current Lakers contract and the Buss-extension offer OR the annual salary offered by Riley in the Heat-extension?
(10) How many times did Shaq say that the luxury tax and salary cap issues was not "his" problem while with the Lakers?
(11) How many times has the media stated that Shaq was willing to take less salary to allow the Heat to avoid luxury tax problems and sign other players?
Want to know why people are mad? There's one reason.
MIM
_________________
Keep or Dump Power Rankings (4/12/23):
1 - Bron; 1a - AD; 2 - Reaves; 2a - DLo; 3 - Vando; 4 - Rui; 5 - Shroo; 6 - Christie; 7- Brown; 8 - Gabriel; 9 - Beas; 10 - Bamba; 11- Lonnie
Last edited by MIMLaker on Wed May 31, 2006 10:18 am; edited 1 time in total |
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vanexelent
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Joined: 17 May 2005
Posts: 30081
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 9:56 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | A little revisionist, no? Shaq tried to force the issue regarding Kobe's pending FA, before the season, with his demands that the Lakers re-negotiate HIS contract, 3 years before it was to expire! He cursed at Dr. Buss in the PRE-SEASON, because Kobe had hinted at testing out the FA waters, as his contract WAS due to expire! Buss even offered to negotiate, but Shaq insisted that he be extended a MAX offer, knowing full well that the Lakers HAD to extend a competitive offer to Kobe, AND needed to start working towards a future with at least some cosideration for cap-space! |
So, which came first the chicken or the egg? Shaq curses at Buss in PRE-SEASON, BECAUSE Kobe hinted at free agency. This is effect following cause here. Both players were positioning themselves for a large payday. I have no problem with the outcome, I just refuse to believe that Shaq was the only reason he is in Miami.
Well Shaq got his MAX contract, he is probably on his way to the Finals, and the Heat still have alot of money to retain a bunch of expensive veterans and be able to sign Wade to a MAX deal! |
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Vlade
Star Player
Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 2373
Location: valley of dry bone dreams
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 10:07 am Post subject: |
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| Hye4life wrote: | Hey Vlade, thanks for the response. I am glad that Kobe is still on the team too. You don't think he would have stayed if the Lakers made the decision to not trade Shaq? Of course not, why would he? He is arguably the best player in the game and Shaq did not want to adjust and still thought of himself as the MDE. Another thing, IF Kobe had left he wouldn't be opening his mouth like Shaq did and I respect Kobe for that.
You may not take Shaq's words seriously, but the problem is that he has tainted the great Lakers reputation for years to come and for that I won't forgive him.
Also, I could care less what Kobe did to Shaq and what Phil did to Kobe as long as they don't think that they are bigger than the team. If Shaq had just ripped Kobe I still wouldn't like him because I'm a Kobe fan but my hate wouldn't be as deep and just like you said in a couple of years I would come to forgive him and appreciate all the wonderful things he had done for the organization. However, what he did was he not only ripped Kobe but he ripped the organization, the owner, the general manager, and worst of all the city of LA.
Finally, it is not about protecting Kobe or liking shaq. It is about Shaq and the Lakers organization. I don't think I can ever like the Lakers AND Shaq which I believe is the view some members hold. |
Thanks for your words. We see things differently, obviously, but you have helped me understand the anti-Shaq mindset more. I don't really take Shaq's words all that seriously... I think he is just hurt for feeling rejected from the Lakers. Others, as you point out, are still quite furious over his anti-Kobe and anti-Laker comments. At least we all share one thing in common: a strong desire to see the Lakers back in contention!
Cheers,
Vlade
_________________
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"All the truth in the world adds up to one big lie." |
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lakers0505
Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 10701
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 10:11 am Post subject: |
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| Runway8 wrote: | | Laker fans pulling for Shaq.... you guys know what you're asking for? The Big Dope will never shut up his mouth if he wins, and the media will be re-energized to bash the lakers for letting him go and more reason to bash Kobe. If you are a "true" laker fan, I don't know how you could be pulling for that. |
Preach too the choir |
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re4ee
Franchise Player
Joined: 07 Mar 2005
Posts: 12237
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 10:14 am Post subject: |
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| vanexelent wrote: | | Quote: | | A little revisionist, no? Shaq tried to force the issue regarding Kobe's pending FA, before the season, with his demands that the Lakers re-negotiate HIS contract, 3 years before it was to expire! He cursed at Dr. Buss in the PRE-SEASON, because Kobe had hinted at testing out the FA waters, as his contract WAS due to expire! Buss even offered to negotiate, but Shaq insisted that he be extended a MAX offer, knowing full well that the Lakers HAD to extend a competitive offer to Kobe, AND needed to start working towards a future with at least some cosideration for cap-space! |
So, which came first the chicken or the egg? Shaq curses at Buss in PRE-SEASON, BECAUSE Kobe hinted at free agency. This is effect following cause here. Both players were positioning themselves for a large payday. I have no problem with the outcome, I just refuse to believe that Shaq was the only reason he is in Miami.
Well Shaq got his MAX contract, he is probably on his way to the Finals, and the Heat still have alot of money to retain a bunch of expensive veterans and be able to sign Wade to a MAX deal! |
But you refuse to acknowledge the difference! SHAQ's contract was still in FULL FORCE, he was NOT DUE an extension, Kobe's was EXPIRING, and was DUE to be EXTENDED or allowed to LAPSE... IMMEDIATELY! SHAQ, ON HIS OWN ACCORD, demanded that HIS contract extention be addressed before Kobe's. SHAQ was already the beneficiary of a HUGE PAYDAY, he was, at that time already the HIGHEST PAID PLAYER in the NBA! He gave Buss and the Laker org. no choice, pay him EVEN MORE, or trade him.
And, BTW, Shaq did NOT get his MAX contract, he re-signed, taking a PAY-CUT with the Heat, in fact, he took EVEN LESS than what Dr. Buss had offered!
Those are the facts...
Shaq's contract was NOT up for extention
Kobe's was due for renewal or lapsing
Shaq was (as a Laker) the highest paid player in the NBA
Kobe was being paid pennies to Shaq's dollars
Shaq said, in effect, redo my contract for MORE, or trade me to someone who will
Shaq accepted even LESS than the Lakers had offered to extend him for, even though his contract was still in effect
Sure, Shaq balked because Kobe excercised his leverage of becoming a free-agent, but, being the BABY he is, he refused to play out his CONTRACT that he signed earlier in full faith.
Bottom line, Kobe was just doing what players are expected to do, SHaq demanded SPECIAL CONSIDERATION out of sequence! |
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Vlade
Star Player
Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 2373
Location: valley of dry bone dreams
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 10:17 am Post subject: |
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| lakers0505 wrote: | | Runway8 wrote: | | Laker fans pulling for Shaq.... you guys know what you're asking for? The Big Dope will never shut up his mouth if he wins, and the media will be re-energized to bash the lakers for letting him go and more reason to bash Kobe. If you are a "true" laker fan, I don't know how you could be pulling for that. |
Preach too the choir |
Maybe we are pulling for Shaq, and Riles, because what Shaq SAYS now doesn't erase what he DID then. Once the Lakers were out, I simply started rooting for teams with players I like. That included the Clips, the Spurs (Ginobili), and the Heat. Now Shaq's team is the only one left for me to root for.
I am not really concerned with the PR effect of Shaq winning another title. As far as I am concerned, whether or not the Heat win, the Lakers will be dealing with such criticism until we get back into contention, which hopefully won't be long.
_________________
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"All the truth in the world adds up to one big lie." |
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re4ee
Franchise Player
Joined: 07 Mar 2005
Posts: 12237
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 10:20 am Post subject: |
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| Vlade wrote: | | lakers0505 wrote: | | Runway8 wrote: | | Laker fans pulling for Shaq.... you guys know what you're asking for? The Big Dope will never shut up his mouth if he wins, and the media will be re-energized to bash the lakers for letting him go and more reason to bash Kobe. If you are a "true" laker fan, I don't know how you could be pulling for that. |
Preach too the choir |
Maybe we are pulling for Shaq, and Riles, because what Shaq SAYS now doesn't erase what he DID then. Once the Lakers were out, I simply started rooting for teams with players I like. That included the Clips, the Spurs (Ginobili), and the Heat. Now Shaq's team is the only one left for me to root for.
I am not really concerned with the PR effect of Shaq winning another title. As far as I am concerned, whether or not the Heat win, the Lakers will be dealing with such criticism until we get back into contention, which hopefully won't be long. |
Yeah, but was Shaq playing to win FOR THE LAKERS, or for Shaquille O'Neal? He has shown his TRUE motivations, and they have always been SELFISH!
Shaq is ALWAYS bigger than the team, the city and even the entire NBA, in his eyes!
Last edited by re4ee on Wed May 31, 2006 12:08 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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classytee
Sixth Man
Joined: 24 Jun 2005
Posts: 45
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 10:21 am Post subject: |
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Are some of you jokin'? You must be one of those Laker Fans that hate Kobe. The bottom line is this, Shaq can do no wrong to some peeps and this is even if he is indeed wrong. It hurt him that he would have to defer to Kobe, but he should have taken it like a MAN and not a big cryin' Tubbie. This whole thread reminds me of the many Laker/Shaq fights me and this guy I was talking to at the time used to have. Of course he was on team Shaq. His whole argument was just "you just don't trade Shaq" regardless, "you just don't trade him, period." I would tell him about being one-sided and he would say "there's no sides, you just don't trade him." Another one of his gems was "yeah, he should ask for that extension cause Kobe's about opt out to take all the money" LOL! No, Shaq wanted that extension because he wanted Kobe gone just as much as Kobe wanted him gone and it puts the org. in a position to have one or the other. Remember in pre-season when Shaq said this, "if he's gonna leave, then leave. I aint going nowhere." Some may use the Colorado thing as an excuse but it is what it is. Oh well. And another thing for those who look at people who are no longer rooting for him "petty." Does it make you superior or "mature" than others because you still root for him? Yeah he helped w/the 3 rings and won 3 finals MVPs, duh! That doesn't excuse his behavior and it doesn't say much for those whe excuse it or dismiss it as "he's just being Shaq." No, I'm not rooting for him, I can see him for what he is through the smokescreen and media fluff.
Last edited by classytee on Wed May 31, 2006 10:26 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Vlade
Star Player
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Posts: 2373
Location: valley of dry bone dreams
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 10:26 am Post subject: |
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It is hilarious to be accussed of being an anti-Kobe Laker fan when I spend so much time defending Kobe amongst friends and acquaintances. And I was FOR trading Shaq if that was the only way to keep Kobe, though I was certainly hoping for more in exchange. Some people see the world in black and white I guess... not me.
This whole thing is like when the Beatles broke up, and for some you could either be a fan of John or Paul, but not both... and that is just plain silly!
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TACH
Retired Number
Joined: 03 Nov 2005
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Location: Chillin on the Delaware.. from the Jersey Side
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 10:28 am Post subject: |
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| vanexelent wrote: | | Quote: | | A little revisionist, no? Shaq tried to force the issue regarding Kobe's pending FA, before the season, with his demands that the Lakers re-negotiate HIS contract, 3 years before it was to expire! He cursed at Dr. Buss in the PRE-SEASON, because Kobe had hinted at testing out the FA waters, as his contract WAS due to expire! Buss even offered to negotiate, but Shaq insisted that he be extended a MAX offer, knowing full well that the Lakers HAD to extend a competitive offer to Kobe, AND needed to start working towards a future with at least some cosideration for cap-space! |
So, which came first the chicken or the egg? Shaq curses at Buss in PRE-SEASON, BECAUSE Kobe hinted at free agency. This is effect following cause here. Both players were positioning themselves for a large payday. I have no problem with the outcome, I just refuse to believe that Shaq was the only reason he is in Miami.
Well Shaq got his MAX contract, he is probably on his way to the Finals, and the Heat still have alot of money to retain a bunch of expensive veterans and be able to sign Wade to a MAX deal! |
I have to agree,... Snaq hand tied the Lakers..... This how I saw it:
| Quote: |
2002-2003 - Shaquille O'Neal, who was sidelined with a toe injury. O'Neal could have had surgery on his toe early in the summer (which would have allowed him to return to playing sooner), however he decided to wait and have the surgery performed not long before the Lakers' pre-season training camp began, rationalizing that "I got hurt on company time, so I’ll heal on company time". The Lakers ended that season with the 5th seed in the Western Conference, failing to get home court advantage in the first round of the playoffs.
2003-2004 - O'Neal and Bryant began feuding once more. The opening salvo, at least publicly, came from O'Neal at the start of the Lakers' pre-season training camp. With Bryant absent from camp due to his legal situation and his recovery from knee surgery, O'Neal answered questions about the Lakers' not having their whole team together yet in camp by pointedly insisting that the whole team was in fact there. Though never mentioning Bryant by name, O'Neal's comments seemed clearly intended to belittle Bryant's importance to the team.
When Bryant joined the Lakers in camp, O'Neal then made a comment to the media suggesting he felt Bryant should look to be more of a passer than a scorer until Bryant's knee was fully healed. Although the comment, taken by itself, was not an overt criticism, in light of O'Neal's previous comments, Bryant took offense, and fired back that he did not appreciate unsolicited advice from O'Neal on how to play the guard position.
O'Neal then responded that he would voice his opinions as he saw fit because the Lakers were his team. Referring to the fact that Bryant would be able to become a free agent at the season's end, O'Neal commented that if Bryant didn't like what O'Neal had to say, Bryant should just leave the team and play elsewhere the next season.
Oct. 2003 - O'Neal talked about his desired extension in interviews before the exhibition opener Tuesday against Golden State. Then, in the third quarter of the game, after he made six straight shots, scored 14 points and emphatically rejected a shot by Golden State's Mike Dunleavy, O'Neal turned to the Lakers bench and yelled, "Now you gonna pay me?"
Owner Jerry Buss was seated on the other side of the court, however. A short time later, as O'Neal was on the bench during a timeout, he turned to reporters seated courtside and mouthed the words, "Pay me."
Before the game the next night, O'Neal saw reporters in the hallway outside the locker room, rubbed his fingers together in a money-counting gesture and shouted out, "Show me the money! Show me the money!"
Under National Basketball Association rules, O'Neal is eligible to receive a three-year extension worth upward of $108 million. O'Neal signed a maximum extension in 2000.
The extension for which O'Neal is eligible is so incredibly large because he is one of the rare players whose salary was grandfathered in before the latest collective bargaining agreement put a maximum on salaries.
The extension, which would start in 2006-'07, could make him the NBA's highest-paid player in that season by $12 million to $14 million over Minnesota's Kevin Garnett, who is also grandfathered in. Garnett, however, did not demand the maximum in his recent deal and "settled" for $100 million over five seasons, even though he was eligible for more than $180 million.
The way O'Neal looks at it, he is worth the maximum.
LINK |
| Quote: | After the Lakers failed to reach the Finals in 2003, the team made a concerted off-season effort to improve its roster. They sought the free agent services of forward Karl Malone and guard Gary Payton, but due to salary cap restrictions, could not offer either one nearly as much money as they could have made with other teams. O'Neal assisted in the recruitment efforts and personally lobbied both men to join the team. Ultimately, each of them did, forgoing larger salaries in favor a chance to win an NBA Championship, something neither had yet accomplished in their career.
At the beginning of the 2003-04 season, with two years left on his contract at the time, O'Neal informed the team of his desire for an extension to his contract. O'Neal remained persistently vocal about this desire, but Laker management was hesitant to meet his demands amid concerns about the possibility of further injuries and a general decline in his game as he continued to age. The Lakers did offer O'Neal a contract in February 2004 (according to the book Madmen's Ball by Mark Heisler) under which he would have continued to remain the highest paid player in the league, however only by a small margin, and O'Neal refused.
O'Neal would not be shy about launching criticisms toward teammates, usually without explicitly mentioning names, but with details that left no doubt he was referring primarily to Bryant. Bryant only responded publicly on one occasion, in an interview with Jim Gray of ESPN, where he called O'Neal "fat" and bristled at O'Neal's previous characterizations of their relationship as "big brother" and "little brother."
After the loss, the division between O'Neal and Bryant came to a head. At the news conference after the final game, O'Neal addressed the uncertainty around Coach Phil Jackson's now-expired contract, and Bryant's impending free agency, which meant either or both might not return to the Lakers the next season. With regard to the issue of people possibly leaving the team, O'Neal commented that he understood that everyone would need to do what was best for themselves, then adding "including me." That last comment was telling because there had previously been no signifcant speculation about O'Neal's future with the team, as he was under contract with the Lakers for two more years.
Eventually Jackson, a favorite of O'Neal, was not offered a new contract by the Lakers. Many assumed that this was because of Bryant, who had at times voiced displeasure with Jackson's offensive scheme. O'Neal, who wasn't notified of the move and learned of it by watching television, asked for a trade, making it clear that he felt the Laker organization was making moves designed primarily to placate Bryant. O'Neal's demand was soon indulged, as he was sent to the Miami Heat for Lamar Odom and other players. -- Wikipedia |
Last edited by TACH on Wed May 31, 2006 10:33 am; edited 1 time in total |
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vvbandit
Star Player
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Posts: 2413
Location: Newport Coast
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 10:30 am Post subject: |
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This topic sure does stir up a lot of emotions and with good reason of course. I agree with Vlade and Vanexcellent the most at this point. Ill try to give my two cents of how I percieved the break up.
The first thing that got me slightly worried is when Kobe decided to opt out of his contract. It was announced like a year in advance and I cant completely remember but the timing seemed odd. I cant blame him for opting out and trying to get a max contract a year earlier, money wise its a no brainer. I just didnt like that it was made public so early that it became an issue when it didnt have to be. I also thought KB might be opting out to gain leverage. Im pretty sure KB knew Phils contract would be up the same year and that Shaq was in the process of trying to get an extension. Im not saying Kobe ran to Dr Buss and gave him an ultimatem, but It was pretty obvious Phil didnt like Kobe and Kobe didnt like Phil. I think Phil had already tried to get KB traded once or twice by this point.
Second thing that started to concern me was when they decided not to extend Phils contract. Why in the hell wouldnt you make it a top priority to sign IMO the greatest coach of all time. Once I read Phils book it became a little clearer, I had no idea that Phil disliked KB so much on a personal level.
The third problem was Shaq v Kobe. These two just couldnt get along at all, and theres plenty of blame to go around. IMO KB shoulders a lot more of the blame in this case b/c it was pretty obvious that nobody liked KB. People like Rick Fox, Robert Horry, Phil Jackson, Shaq, nobody really liked him. He was too much of a loner especially in that social setting when you are supposed to be trying to win the favor of the veterans on the team. Those type of actions could be looked at as disrespectful and can rub people the wrong way He came into this league at 17 and joined a team full of men. When he arrived he acted as if he owned the joint and wasnt as humble as he shouldve been. I believe he got out of hand and Shaq had to slap him in practice one time. Im not sure what it is about his personality but nobody else seemed to hate Shaq, and Phil. Jordan loved Phil so did Pippen, Rodman, Shaq, so what the hell was Kobes problem. It always seemed like KB was the one who had issues with everyone. I cant give KB all the blame, he was only a kid and these grown men couldve treated him with more patience. I actually give a lot of the blame to Del Harris for not being able to control the situation. Although Shaq gets some of the blame its definately not 50/50.
It was now up to Dr Buss to make a decision. This is what he definately knows at this point.
1. Phil has said he wont coach a team with KB on it and wants him traded.
2. KB will most likely leave and go to another team if things stay the way they are.
3. Shaq is getting older and doesnt seem as if he will ever hand control over to KB b/c of his personal dislike for him.
4. Shaq is being a pain in the butt with his own contract negotiations.
5. Dr Buss says the fan mail he gets for KB is 5 to 1 compared to what Shaq gets.
6. KB is young and will sell out the building for 10-12 more years.
So Dr Buss went with the Kid just like every other owner would do if he was forced to make that decision. The problem I have is that he was forced to make that decision. Its all BS and the only ones who really suffered were Laker fans. We all know if Shaq and KB wouldve stayed together the Lakers wouldve made 5-6 more final appearences with at least 2-3 more titles. Mitch is forced to sell some stupid 07/08 plan as if that was the reason they broke up the team. Championships are damn near impossible to come by and we had something special. You dont just break that up if you dont have to. Ahh man now Im pissed again about the whole thing, this sucks.
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classytee
Sixth Man
Joined: 24 Jun 2005
Posts: 45
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 10:31 am Post subject: |
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| Vlade wrote: |
It is hilarious to be accussed of being an anti-Kobe Laker fan when I spend so much time defending Kobe amongst friends and acquaintances. And I was FOR trading Shaq if that was the only way to keep Kobe, though I was certainly hoping for more in exchange. Some people see the world in black and white I guess... not me.
This whole thing is like when the Beatles broke up, and for some you could either be a fan of John or Paul, but not both... and that is just plain silly! |
That's all fine and dandy but please stop looking at those who do not support Shaq and his shenannigans(however you spell it)as if something's wrong us or we're petty and immature and you're above us. |
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Vlade
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Joined: 08 May 2005
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Location: valley of dry bone dreams
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 10:47 am Post subject: |
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| classytee wrote: | | Vlade wrote: |
It is hilarious to be accussed of being an anti-Kobe Laker fan when I spend so much time defending Kobe amongst friends and acquaintances. And I was FOR trading Shaq if that was the only way to keep Kobe, though I was certainly hoping for more in exchange. Some people see the world in black and white I guess... not me.
This whole thing is like when the Beatles broke up, and for some you could either be a fan of John or Paul, but not both... and that is just plain silly! |
That's all fine and dandy but please stop looking at those who do not support Shaq and his shenannigans(however you spell it)as if something's wrong us or we're petty and immature and you're above us. |
If you read through the thread, you'll see I came to a better understanding of the anti-Shaq crowd. I apologize for insinuating you all were immature. Some of those who suggested it is somehow treasonous to still like Shaq, still have some apologies to make of their own.
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