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wolfpaclaker
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 Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 11:33 am Post subject: |
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In what system, Mike? Was it the Triangle?
Payton averaged 20/8 the year before he came here. What did he average as a Laker? 14/5? That for an elite PG.
Banks in Minny is a bad comparison. It's not like Radmanovic, who's job is much simpler. Shoot the open looks. With Banks, he was the undisputed PG as a Wolve. In LA, he will have to adapt and his numbers will be different.
I'm not saying Banks can't adapt - but I totally disagree that he's a 12/5 player right off the bat as a Laker. For starters, he would have to beat out Parker to start and at the same time show that he can learn the Triangle. |
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Car54
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| Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 11:34 am Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | Car, that doesn't mean a PG has to blow up on the team every single time.
You need someone to stop the basketball, and pray for 2 guys who can swat for weakside help.
That's how you contain PGs.
You already gave up on the fact that "You can't defend a good PG." A shame. |
Nash kills any team he wants even one with Banks & KG(blocks) playing on it. Banks aggressive play will have him on the bench watching parker play now thats a fact.
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 11:34 am Post subject: |
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^That's what I'm hoping for.
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JerryMagicKobe
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| Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 11:37 am Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | Quote: | | He had several offers, including from the Suns, a team that many on this board (including you Mike @ LG) point to as a FO that evaluates players well. |
Obviously. See the the looks Tim Thomas got?
So really, why do you have to point me out? My arguments aren't solid enough for you?
Really I don't understand why fans get so offended with an opposing view. I'm not being offensive to those who are being respectful. |
Offended? moi? I pointed you out because I respect your opinion, and you are good at evaluating talent and the draft.
The Lakers and the rest of the league are reacting to the new style of the NBA - the wide open, spread the floor, first-team-to-100-wins style exhibited by Phoenix and Dallas. Vlad fits this system well. And the fact that Thomas got good looks in PHX is exactly the reason that Vlad is coveted around the league, and in particular by the Lakers. Phoenix wanted Vlad, offered him the MLE and yet they let Thomas go. Kobe draws more attention than Nash, and Vlad can be a beneficiary of that. We still need a 1 that can knock down shots and defend, but Vlad came here for LESS than the Seattle offer and chose the Lakers over several other teams (some with better records) because it makes as much sense to him to come HERE because it is such a good fit. The player is happy, the Gm is, the coach is, the star playeris and the retired star is. Why aren't you?
The truth is Banks won't stop Nash. He won't change anything that Phoenix wants to do. Personally, I think you use up alot of hard fouls to slow down Nash, and you have a stay at home shot blocker clogging the middle (Bynum) to discourage penetration and allow everyone else to stay with the perimeter shooters. Defense at the 1 would help, but Vlad was a nice addition to the team, not something to complain about.
And Banks is quickly running out of teams to sign with. No one has offered the MLE, and Minny can't do a sign and trade. What teams are left that need him, can offer starters minutes and can offer something better than the LLE? This isn't a rhetorical question, I would love to know who we are competing against to still sign him. |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 11:59 am Post subject: |
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We don't need Banks to just stop Nash.
Defense is a team effort, but it takes the accumulated individual efforts and talent to make a great defensive scheme work.
Banks has all the athletic tools and good defensive IQ.
Having 2 swatters from the weakside help completes the scheme just for the PG.
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Payton averaged 20/8 the year before he came here. What did he average as a Laker? 14/5? That for an elite PG. |
What did he average as a Miami Heat starter? He's clearly in decline.
His numbers don't show the fact that the Lakers were able to go #1 in the Pacific and back to the Finals despite all the injuries.
Adding Malone was a huge opening of the triangle dimensionally. Not just midrange jumper, but high post passing, post defense, and rebounding.
| Quote: | | Banks in Minny is a bad comparison. It's not like Radmanovic, who's job is much simpler. Shoot the open looks. With Banks, he was the undisputed PG as a Wolve. In LA, he will have to adapt and his numbers will be different. |
Think of the Wolves offensive scheme. It's mostly ran off of KG at the high post. KG is an excellent high post playmaker with his 4-6apg. I think Banks did a solid job complimenting that, despite having the offense initiated through KG. Not much different with Odom and Bryant.
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CBaller8
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| Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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| So many homers...Vlad becomes a Laker and everyone thinks he's gonna turn into an All Star avg 20pts and 8-10 boards. |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The player is happy, the Gm is, the coach is, the star playeris and the retired star is. Why aren't you? |
I don't agree with all the philosophies of the Laker team since Shaq got traded in 04.
I've almost never agreed with the draft since 2000. '05 was the only time it was close, and we got darn good players from that draft. '06 was just as good.
Use of the MLE? Never really liked except for GP Malone.
Trades? Mihm was steal. Payton robbed us of Banks. Wasn't that big a fan of the Kwame trade though I'm glad to see the 180* improvement with post D. Now the O has to come along.
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JerryMagicKobe
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| Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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| CBaller8 wrote: | | So many homers...Vlad becomes a Laker and everyone thinks he's gonna turn into an All Star avg 20pts and 8-10 boards. |
So many haters...Vlad becomes a Laker and everyone thinks he's Brian Cook. Why don't you trust your team again? Buss, Mitch, Phil, Kobe and Magic are wrong but you are right? |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Vlad becomes a Laker and everyone thinks he's Brian Cook. |
About the same size. More athletic. Better ball-handler. Quicker.
In terms of game? Both take a HUGE amount of shots behind the arc. The comparison is understandable.
Vlad is a better rebounder and offensive threat, agreed.
I just would've felt better with the Turiaf/Cook tandem at PF and Banks/Parker at PG.
I think that offers a lot more flexibility to the triangle offense and, helps dramatically defensively.
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JerryMagicKobe
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| Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | Quote: | | The player is happy, the Gm is, the coach is, the star playeris and the retired star is. Why aren't you? |
I don't agree with all the philosophies of the Laker team since Shaq got traded in 04.
I've almost never agreed with the draft since 2000. '05 was the only time it was close, and we got darn good players from that draft. '06 was just as good.
Use of the MLE? Never really liked except for GP Malone.
Trades? Mihm was steal. Payton robbed us of Banks. Wasn't that big a fan of the Kwame trade though I'm glad to see the 180* improvement with post D. Now the O has to come along. |
Dude, I understand that. Plain to see now that the original plan was to retool and run and gun with Rudy T. That was Buss and Mitch's big mistake. But that was immediately addressed with the firing, er I mean retiring of Rudy, and the rehiring of Phil. Since that time, it is hard to fault the overall decisions and progress of the FO. They are on the right track, and I really don't see many teams that scare me right now. |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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Well just to point out one example of Phil.
There was a time when the Bulls assistant coaches Cleamons, Winter, etc. all felt that with MJ gone from the team, the Bulls should've gone with Finley out of Nebraska (I believe). Local Chi-town kid. Great athleticism, skills.
Phil overruled all of them for Jason Caffey.
Filled in the blanks with Pete Myers.
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re4ee
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| Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Car54 wrote: |
Nash kills any team he wants even one with Banks & KG(blocks) playing on it. Banks aggressive play will have him on the bench watching parker play now thats a fact. |
That is a huge over-statement. As good as Nash may be, he ain't all that! Granted, with Parker guarding him, in the POs, he looked all world, but there are more than a handful of defenders that slow his penetration down to a managable level. If he were able to "kill any team he wants", what, exactly, kept the Suns from winning it all!
Elite PGs will do damage, but EFFORT to keep them working as hard as possible is what makes a deefensive PG valuable. Slow them down to the point that they're dealing with a short shot clock, disrupt their preferred movements, alter their passing angles, make them uncomfortable as often as possible.
Every second you make your opponent burn setting their plays up, is one second less they are spending scoring! |
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LakerJam
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| Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | Quote: |
I know you wanted Banks, so did I, but you're downplaying this signing far too much here - and it's not at all reasonable. We NEEDED this type of signing period. Just like we need a PG who can play defense. |
I've already said that it fulfills a need.
Just so happens, there's also a need defensively at PF and C. Radmanovic doesn't fill that. |
So instead of raging on and on about how terrible this is, stop crucifying this move for not being the PG or PF move. We filled 2 holes with this signing and can now move on to other holes.
I really don't get all the complaining here. We finally do something quality with our MLE, even if it's not the move or hole some of us would have filled first. That's great. I'll also point out again that Vlad would be much easier to move, if it became necessary should a certain someone decide not to sign his extension. The beauty of that is that it allows us to (a) improve the team in the present, while (b) not pinning us to an unfriendly, hard to move contract of a player that clearly isn't majorly coveted. |
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hoopschick29
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| Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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| re4ee wrote: | | Car54 wrote: |
Nash kills any team he wants even one with Banks & KG(blocks) playing on it. Banks aggressive play will have him on the bench watching parker play now thats a fact. |
That is a huge over-statement. As good as Nash may be, he ain't all that! Granted, with Parker guarding him, in the POs, he looked all world, but there are more than a handful of defenders that slow his penetration down to a managable level. If he were able to "kill any team he wants", what, exactly, kept the Suns from winning it all!
Elite PGs will do damage, but EFFORT to keep them working as hard as possible is what makes a deefensive PG valuable. Slow them down to the point that they're dealing with a short shot clock, disrupt their preferred movements, alter their passing angles, make them uncomfortable as often as possible.
Every second you make your opponent burn setting their plays up, is one second less they are spending scoring! |
Actually, the best way to slow down guys like Nash and TP is to make them have to play defense. Make them have to worry about your offense. Particularly with Nash, this will tire him out before making him use a few extra seconds of shot clock.
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re4ee
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| Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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| hoopschick29 wrote: | | re4ee wrote: | | Car54 wrote: |
Nash kills any team he wants even one with Banks & KG(blocks) playing on it. Banks aggressive play will have him on the bench watching parker play now thats a fact. |
That is a huge over-statement. As good as Nash may be, he ain't all that! Granted, with Parker guarding him, in the POs, he looked all world, but there are more than a handful of defenders that slow his penetration down to a managable level. If he were able to "kill any team he wants", what, exactly, kept the Suns from winning it all!
Elite PGs will do damage, but EFFORT to keep them working as hard as possible is what makes a deefensive PG valuable. Slow them down to the point that they're dealing with a short shot clock, disrupt their preferred movements, alter their passing angles, make them uncomfortable as often as possible.
Every second you make your opponent burn setting their plays up, is one second less they are spending scoring! |
Actually, the best way to slow down guys like Nash and TP is to make them have to play defense. Make them have to worry about your offense. Particularly with Nash, this will tire him out before making him use a few extra seconds of shot clock. |
I have yet to see Steve Nash play ANY defense, at all! Unless you call jumping back and forth waving your arms like a turkey vulture... defense! |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I have yet to see Steve Nash play ANY defense, at all! |
Me too. Phoenix knows he's a liability, so they just switch him around. With Diaw, Marion, Bell, and Barbosa on the floor at differing times, they take the tough assignments, not Nash.
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RG73
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| Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Car54 wrote: | | Nash kills any team he wants even one with Banks & KG(blocks) playing on it. |
Nonsense.
Billups in his two match ups last season held Nash to 36% shooting, 15.5 ppg and 8.5 assists. Boston held Nash to 27% shooting, 11 points and 6 assists in two games. Kidd held him to 48%, 13.5 and 5.5. In fact Kidd held Nash scoreless, 0-5, with 5 assists in their last meeting. So he can be checked by good man defenders which Detroit, Boston and NJ all have at the point.
The problem is that there are not actually a whole lot of good defenders in the league at the 1. Which is what makes Banks so valuable to anyone willing to open their eyes. None of the other contending teams in the west really have a great man defender at the 1. Banks would give us something that the other teams don't have and he'd give Nash something that he rarely faces--actual defense. Give Nash 20 odd minutes of dealing with Banks who has both size and speed advantages on Nash and its going to wear on him and disrupt their offense.
Another consideration, of course, is that Banks can easily outrun Nash end to end. That is going to cut down on them pushing the ball. You get someone who can sprint out in front of Nash and slow them down and you force them into the half court set. And we know they don't like the half court set. He doesn't even need to "stop" Nash, just slow him. By simply staying in front of him and disrupting the offense you take time off the clock and you slow their offense down. Even if Nash scores on him, if he scores with 4 seconds left on the clock instead of 20 I consider that a net benefit. |
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hoopschick29
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| Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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Most nights, Nash doesn't have to. Most nights, Nash is up against guys who either can't score, or aren't bright enough to exploit their match up with their scoring.
And of course, Nash isn't gonna dig his heels in drape himself on anybody. But if he has to worry about where his guy's at and what he's doing, then that's time not spent planning the next 3 fastbreaks on his side of the floor.
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LakerJam
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| Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | Quote: | | The urgency wasn't so much a greater team NEED, but was forced by market considerations. |
And that I do have a problem with. Market considerations took priority over focusing on actual team needs.
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I agree that there is a definate need for a defensive upgrade @ PG, we'll have to wait and see if it can be addressed before Oct.
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Agreed, because the Lakers can't afford anymore PG projects now that Parker and Farmar are on board. |
You should reclarify because it looks like you're talking out of two sides of your mouth. First, you acknowledge that the Vlad signing did fill some needs. Now, you say you have a problem because the market took priority over team needs. The truth is that the market did NOT over-ride team needs. It merely dictated which need was filled first.
Perhaps you believe that a raw and inconsistent project -and Banks is still very much a project - is of more value to the team right now than an established plaeyr, but it's clear that the Lakers felt that easing some of the pressure off of Kobe and opening things up for him so he's not trying to be effective with 3 guys on him at all times, was more important. While I, too, covet Banks, I have agree with the Lakers thinking. I don't want Kobe getting injured because he's so exhausted having to bear too much of the burden. No fan should ask that of him just because you want a defensive PG right this second.
I know you'll likely bring up the year in the triangle, which is a valid point, but it still doesn't mean that we should suddenly expect Kwame, Smush, Cook, Walton and every other young player on this team, to now be instantly consistent every night. That's not realistic. Those players have been inconsistent in their careers as a whole. To expect more than improvement is folly.
Kobe, more than anyone else, needed this signing and since I view him as giving a champion's effort every single night, if Vlad Radmonovic eases his burden this seaon, I'm all for it. No other guy works as hard as he does, and he dam well deserves more than a project with major potential, even if I agree that Banks could have been a solid answer defensively at PG. |
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LakerJam
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| Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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| CBaller8 wrote: | | So many homers...Vlad becomes a Laker and everyone thinks he's gonna turn into an All Star avg 20pts and 8-10 boards. |
First of all, it's KOBE who thinks he'll average between 18-20ppg. Secondly, where has anyone posted that they think Vlad is going to be a 20/8-10 player?
How sad you have to constantly exaggerate like that. |
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hoopschick29
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| Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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^^^ Learning the triangle was only a part of problem. While that was a factor, no one can deny there is a serious glut of guys who are simply not that good offensively. Learning the tri has nothing to do with not being able to make a wide open shot consistently. And these guys throughout the season had long painful stretches where they couldn't hit anything. And Kobe had bad nights, but that's with 2 or 3 guys in his grill. He also had many more great nights with 2 or 3 guys in his grill. Kobe needs someone he can count on to help him on a nightly basis. Phil Jackson needs someone he can count on to help Kobe on a nightly basis. Kobe's body simply will not hold up having to continue to carry that type of burden.
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_#1_
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| Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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I’ve been jocking Banks along with Sky from way back. Best upside defender available and he has room for growth in his offensive game. But, you don’t need a PG stopper to win. I agree with all the theories but the reality is other than Billups playing tough and to some degree Terry the others are getting it done without much defense at the 1 and instead are shooting it up. Willams and Payton can’t guard a chair these days.
The issue for us is Smush and Sasha can’t either. We may not need Banks but we have got to have something other than a zero at the 1 unless Bynum and Kwame suddenly decide the paint is theirs and we get consistent defense at the SF. Since we can’t count on that and Farmer can’t be counted on, we should address the 1. Another season of Smush and Sasha will bum me out since neither one makes up for the defense with a superb passing game or ability to breakdown defenders leaving them weak SGs playing the point with limited spot up games unable to even draw one defender at times, let alone a double. |
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Dr. Laker
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| Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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Banks is a moot point right now - let him go.
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CBaller8
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| Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerJam wrote: | | CBaller8 wrote: | | So many homers...Vlad becomes a Laker and everyone thinks he's gonna turn into an All Star avg 20pts and 8-10 boards. |
First of all, it's KOBE who thinks he'll average between 18-20ppg. Secondly, where has anyone posted that they think Vlad is going to be a 20/8-10 player?
How sad you have to constantly exaggerate like that. |
Take off the purple/gold sunglasses. Vlad is not that good...it's the same thing when Fisher was here. People thought he was such a great player when in reality Fisher is slow, poor defender, and has sorry ass handles to boot. The Lakers are still the same team that barely got into the playoffs. |
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LakerJam
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| Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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| hoopschick29 wrote: | | ^^^ Learning the triangle was only a part of problem. While that was a factor, no one can deny there is a serious glut of guys who are simply not that good offensively. Learning the tri has nothing to do with not being able to make a wide open shot consistently. And these guys throughout the season had long painful stretches where they couldn't hit anything. And Kobe had bad nights, but that's with 2 or 3 guys in his grill. He also had many more great nights with 2 or 3 guys in his grill. Kobe needs someone he can count on to help him on a nightly basis. Phil Jackson needs someone he can count on to help Kobe on a nightly basis. Kobe's body simply will not hold up having to continue to carry that type of burden. |
It's a point Wolf brought up and I really took it to heart, too. I hadn't really looked at in that light so much. Rather, I was viewing Rad as yet another hole we filled (or 2 holes, really, because he will be 3rd scorer every night, for the most part). Once I saw that point, it made me realize how important it really was to get Kobe some immediate help.
He keeps himself in great shape, but last year's load, even with some improvements just by the team getting better, was far too much. If he had to do close to that again, we'd seriously be courting major injury for him and that's not cool.
Last edited by LakerJam on Thu Jul 06, 2006 2:01 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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