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lakers399
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 Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:24 am Post subject: |
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| Desire. Curry didn't even average double figures in rebounding in high school, so it's no surprise there. |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:31 am Post subject: |
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^He did for 1 year and averaged over 9rpg in HS. Stats don't mean anything in high school. Tracy Murray averaged over 40ppg in 1 year. DeJuan Wagner scored over 100 points in 1 game. Doesn't mean a thing.
Point? Bigman, long arm, inconsistent boxing out. Sub average rebounder.
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thegreatest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:49 am Post subject: |
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| Gnat wrote: | I was at the game today.
Devin Green was really impressive today. He clearly looked better than Pinnock today. He really let loose.
Wafer was okay but looked lost on defense (My wife, who doesn't even watch sports, brought it up). His shot wasn't dropping and he was a little out of control at times.
Bynum had a monster game. I felt he could've had more rebounds as he doesn't actively box out. His most impressive sequence was when he went up for a rebound, tapped the ball off the backboard, sprung back up and caught the ball in the air and dunked it in one motion. To those who haven't seen him this summer, rest assured the kid gets off the floor quicker than last year. Trust me. He's no stiff. As far as his mobility is concerned, his speed can be helped. This guy doesn't know how to run. He doesn't lift his knees at all when he runs, still he's fairly quick. He actually lumbers faster than Michael Fey can run (and Fey has a decent running motion: higher knee lift and better arm swing). This kid needs a track coach.
Farmar played really well today. He showed no signed of being hurt. He did force a couple of passes that resulted in turnovers (one was on a fast break where failed to look off the defender before making the pass. Everyone in the gym knew where that pass was going. Farmer does move really well without the ball. He made the game look easy. |
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lakers399
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:50 am Post subject: |
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While high stats in high school doesn't necessarily mean anything, the reverse isn't necessarily true. If you do poorly at the lower level of competition, then there's no chance that you'll dominate at the top.
Anyway, what were Curry's rebounding numbers at his summer league? I bet he must have averaged around 5 or something. |
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:52 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Point? Bigman, long arm, inconsistent boxing out. Sub average rebounder |
Boxing out are part of fundamentals, right?
This is one of the BIG things Bynum is missing out on with not going to college. He is going to have to learn the fundamentals in the Pro's - which is going to be very hard.
I still think Bynum is up for the challenge. It will take him a few years - but his attitude is so much better than Curry's. It's night and day approach.
Curry got his guaranteed K through the draft and became fat. Improved, but slowly despite being handed a starting spot on a 20 win team. Bynum's gone the opposite route. He has lost weight and is in much better shape than in highschool. Has two quality big's that he will have to bea out to start. Not going to be handed minutes from a coach like Phil Jackson. Still has a ways to go - but I don't see similarities in Bynum and Curry - work ethic or situation wise. Bynum has a much better work ethic from what I have seen and will have to prove himself to get minutes. |
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lakers399
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:56 am Post subject: |
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| Holy (bleep), how prophetic I were. Curry's average in the summer league were 12 and 5. I must say, if Bynum kept this up, starting at the end of the year is not out of the question. |
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4OnTheFloor
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:57 am Post subject: |
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| ballerxj wrote: | | magic_bryant wrote: | | TheQuestForSeventeen wrote: | | magic_bryant wrote: | | lakers399 wrote: | Kobe's a guard, he's supposed to be able to score. His average was 23, 6 and 2, which is kind of so-so.
Anyway, if you want a better perspective, then compare him to Howard and Amare. Bynum's average so far is 15, 8 and 2. Howard's first summer league was 13, 10, and 3(but only 35% shooting.) Amare was 14 and 6 AND he's a year older, so you see, Bynum already compares very favorably with those two.
No one averages 20 and 10 in the summer league. If a guy did that, he'd be an immediate superstar. |
And Amare and Howard had the raw, natural athleticism to build upon there games. Bynum's bigger than everyone in the SPL. He should at least be CONSISTENT in SPL.
Look at any good player, he can and will be consistently good at the SPL level. Bynum isn't. He's great one minute, horrible the next. That has to be a concern if you're one of the homers who feels Bynum is going to be an All-Star.
And one other thing regarding Brad Miller: Yeah. Sure, he wasn't dominating anyone at 18. But you know what? That's why he went to college and developed his game more. |
But you said that if he were to become an all-star, he would be consistent in the SPL, whereas Stoudemire and Howard's performances are evidence that that is not the case.
I'm not sure exactly what your point is regarding Brad Miller going to college to work on his game. Who's to say that he wouldn't have become an all star had he started in the NBA at age 18. Kobe Bryant, Kevin Garnett, Moses Malone, Jermaine O'Neal, Amare Stoudemire, Dwight Howard, etc. are all evidence that college is not a necessity when it comes to developing your game to an all star level. I'm not sure where you're going with that one. |
Those stats for Amare and Howard were in their FIRST SPL. Why compare that to Bynum's SECOND? That's ridiculous. Bynum is a 1 year pro. He should be far more consistent in SPL. |
SECOND year spl stats Howard vs Bynum
Howard
19 PPG
7.5 RPG
0.8 APG
1.5 BPG
Bynum
13 PPG
8 RPG
2.3 ASP
2.5 BPG
Except for the points, bynum is holding his own against howard, rebounds are about the same, but bynum puts up more assist, and more block shots. I aint saying hes gonna be as good as howard, but howard wasnt doing any better than bynum,except for points, and Howard had more playing time his rookie year than bynum, more experience,and he only put up better numbers, so i would not consider bynum "behind the curve" |
If Bynum was in Vegas or even at the Rocky Mountain league putting up those numbers then he would get credit. I expected to see more from him esp. against the weak talent that he's been going up against in the spl. |
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Rick12322
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:59 am Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | ^He did for 1 year and averaged over 9rpg in HS. Stats don't mean anything in high school. Tracy Murray averaged over 40ppg in 1 year. DeJuan Wagner scored over 100 points in 1 game. Doesn't mean a thing.
Point? Bigman, long arm, inconsistent boxing out. Sub average rebounder. |
it seems to me boxing out is the easiest thing to do intellectually or skill wise. I will become concerned when Bynum reaches nba conditioning and he's not doing this no-brainer conditioning centric aspect of the game.
That's what makes sense to me. |
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lakers399
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:03 am Post subject: |
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Wrong. As I pointed it out, if he were playing in the Vegas summer league, he would be going against 6'8-7'0 guys, instead of a 7'2 guy, multiple times.
And I ask once again, did Howard or Amare ever get double team like Bynum did? People keep coming up with stuff that detracts Bynum's performance, yet can't even refute this one simple point. |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:07 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Wrong. As I pointed it out, if he were playing in the Vegas summer league, he would be going against 6'8-7'0 guys, instead of a 7'2 guy, multiple times.
And I ask once again, did Howard or Amare ever get double team like Bynum did? People keep coming up with stuff that detracts Bynum's performance, yet can't even refute this one simple point. |
When it comes to boxing out, height doesn't matter too much.
And yes, Howard and Stoudemire got doubled.
Giving up 11 rebounds to Glyniadakis?
10/12 respecfively to McCoy and DeAngelo Collins?
12/10 rebounds to Lawrence Roberts and Glyniadakis?
Real rebounders limit possessions to the opponent. Bynum did well against Ramos, Blatche, etc., but this is sub-par NBA talent grabbing a hihg amount of rebounds.
3x the Lakers outrebounded the opponent.
2x the Lakers were nearly even
2x the Lakers were outrebounded significantly
I don't know. For a bigman with above average athleticism who we all want to kill on the backboard, lack of consistency at the SPL level doesn't look well.
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Last edited by Mike@LG on Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:11 am; edited 1 time in total |
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lakers399
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:11 am Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | Quote: | Wrong. As I pointed it out, if he were playing in the Vegas summer league, he would be going against 6'8-7'0 guys, instead of a 7'2 guy, multiple times.
And I ask once again, did Howard or Amare ever get double team like Bynum did? People keep coming up with stuff that detracts Bynum's performance, yet can't even refute this one simple point. |
When it comes to boxing out, height doesn't matter too much.
And yes, Howard and Stoudemire got doubled. |
As much as Bynum had been? Be honest Mike, because from what I've read, it seems like Bynum's already been getting the Shaq treatment.
See, I think post presence is another thing that cannot be seen on the stats(usually it takes 2 or 3 passes after getting doubled from the post, to get the best shot.) All you have to do is compare Shaq and Duncan with KG. KG averages considerably more assists than both, but we know who's the more dangerous threat.
In fact, I'm really not sure if KG's assists have any impact on the game at all. All you have to do is visualize Chris Bosh, would he be any less of a player than KG, if he were able to rebound and defend like KG, despite not averaging any assists? I think not.
Last edited by lakers399 on Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:16 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Quack
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:11 am Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | Quote: | SECOND year spl stats Howard vs Bynum
Howard
19 PPG
7.5 RPG
0.8 APG
1.5 BPG
Bynum
13 PPG
8 RPG
2.3 ASP
2.5 BPG
Except for the points, bynum is holding his own against howard, rebounds are about the same, but bynum puts up more assist, and more block shots. I aint saying hes gonna be as good as howard, but howard wasnt doing any better than bynum,except for points, and Howard had more playing time his rookie year than bynum, more experience,and he only put up better numbers, so i would not consider bynum "behind the curve" |
Except:
Dwight Howard is an elite athlete.
Howard rarely misses box-outs
Howard rarely misses weakside defensive help situations.
Take that into consideration outside of the stats, and it's not surprising that Howard has done so well, so early.
It's not like Bynum has Howard's experience, which just put him further behind the learning curve. |
Mike, i agree with what your main point is, as i originally stated, i dont know if bynum will be as good as howard, but i was using those stats, because Magic Bryant was using the SPL numbers for bynum to show that he is behind, as he is not being a consistent double digit rebounder, and my personal point, which i have also posted, is that you cannot say a player will be great or a bust based on the summer league, as you stated, howard boxes out, and rotates,and that doesnt come out in the box score, which again goes back to my point that judging a players future greateness or bust on the summer league alone is not the best method
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Last edited by Quack on Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:18 am; edited 1 time in total |
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:12 am Post subject: |
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Didn't Bynum get constant doubles and even triples against Memphis? I don't think many teams played Bynum straight up. I read DB saying that one of the reason's Bynum didn't score much in a game was because of all the defensive attention he got.
While It is just Summer league play, it's still noteworthy that you have a player who's drawing so much defensive attention.
Last edited by wolfpaclaker on Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:14 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:13 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
As much as Bynum had been? Be honest Mike, because from what I've read, it seems like Bynum's already been getting the Shaq treatment. |
Yes. Bynum isn't getting doubled every time. Recall, Stoudemire and Howard didn't get the same illegal defense rules either.
The Shaq treatment? Well, what do you expect 8-10 borderline NBA talents to do? They're not in the NBA for a lot of reasons.
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:17 am Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | Didn't Bynum get constant doubles and even triples against Memphis? I don't think many teams played Bynum straight up. I read DB saying that one of the reason's Bynum didn't score much in a game was because of all the defensive attention he got.
While It is just Summer league play, it's still noteworthy that you have a player who's drawing so much defensive attention. |
In the most recent game? Yes. Did he get the same coverage the first two times against Memphis? No.
They watch gametape in the SPL and adjust defense accordingly.
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lakers399
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:27 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Yes. Bynum isn't getting doubled every time. Recall, Stoudemire and Howard didn't get the same illegal defense rules either.
The Shaq treatment? Well, what do you expect 8-10 borderline NBA talents to do? They're not in the NBA for a lot of reasons. |
Sorry, I don't buy it. If you look at the numbers, Howard averaged .8 assists, Bynum 2.5. Even though I've implied that the assists for a center don't show fully his impact, a center that gets Shaq-like treatment still has to average 2 or 3 a game. When Howard came into the league, he lacks the post touch that Bynum does(and still does now.) It's hard to believe that he would have commanded the same double-teams that Bynum does.
Sorry Mike, I think your refusal to be wrong about Bynum, have made you've gone as far as intentionally skewing your observations, knowing that we can't really prove it, except to go by the stats, which fortunately has a large enough discrepancy, to falsify your observation. |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:29 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Sorry, I don't buy it. If you look at the numbers, Howard averaged .8 assists, Bynum 2.5. Even though I've implied that the assists for a center don't show fully his impact, a center that gets Shaq-like treatment still has to average 2 or 3 a game. When Howard came into the league, he lacks the post touch that Bynum does(and still does now.) It's hard to believe that he would have commanded the same double-teams that Bynum does.
Sorry Mike, I think your refusal to be wrong about Bynum, have made you've gone as far as intentionally skewing your observations, knowing that we can't really prove it, except to go by the stats, which fortunately has a large enough discrepancy, to falsify your observation. |
What in the world? Forget it then. I've been to every game. I'm being honest.
You don't like it, and you think it's because I'm hating on Bynum?
:roll:
I'm not going to write about what people want to hear. The media does that enough as it is to sell papers. I've got nothing to sell.
Maybe if you paid attention to the games, you'd realize that A) I never docked Bynum's passing ability, always praised it, and B) instead of just looking at 1 6 assist game, look at the 2 games he didn't get any, and C) If Howard can finish over SPL talent, why would he pass it out?
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LakerJam
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:33 am Post subject: |
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| 4OnTheFloor wrote: |
If Bynum was in Vegas or even at the Rocky Mountain league putting up those numbers then he would get credit. I expected to see more from him esp. against the weak talent that he's been going up against in the spl. |
The talent might not be great, but he's still putting up those stats against double and tripple teams. That's nothing to merely discount. |
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lakers399
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:34 am Post subject: |
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| Well, it's possible that he was picked over a guy you liked and you don't want to be wrong about him. |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:38 am Post subject: |
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| lakers399 wrote: | | Well, it's possible that he was picked over a guy you liked and you don't want to be wrong about him. |
:roll:
Bynum was #3 on my list of draft picks for that year behind Felton and Granger. Now you want to assume things about me?
This isn't about me being right or wrong. This is me assessing the game as it happens. Perhaps you'd like me to lie and say "Oh he's a great rebounder, so explosive, boxing out all the time, and seals his man well."
Too bad. It's not true. 10 for 10 last night? You realize he got doubled less than a handful of times against Washington? Most of those field goals were on 1 on 1 play.
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Quack
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:44 am Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: |
Bynum was #3 on my list of draft picks for that year behind Felton and Granger. |
Mike, i have a question regarding sean may, as their were some here who felt he should have been picked, if the lakers were to take a big, do you have any info on hows hes doing in the summer league, and on how his game compares to bynum?, thanks
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LakerJam
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:45 am Post subject: |
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| lakers399 wrote: | | Well, it's possible that he was picked over a guy you liked and you don't want to be wrong about him. |
Nah, that's not Mike - and believe me when I say he and I have "discussed" Bynum ad nauseum.
What Mike is, is conservative and practical. He doesn't "credit" future improvements, he merely talks about what he sees on the court and then projects how that translates should a player become consistent with that level of play. In essence, when Mike is analyzing a player, what he sees is what you'll get. Having said that, Mike has also given a bit on Bynum, as evidenced by his acknowledging better athleticism than he originally thought the kid possessed, as well as recognizing the defensive presence Bynum is starting to bring. Other than that, Mike doesn't give free rides. Bynum will have to show it before Mike concedes it - but he IS willing to concede it in those times when the kid shows it.
Some of us might enjoy talking about Bynum's ceiling, but there's nothing wrong with sticking to what's right in front of you and dealing with it on those terms. After all, none of us really knows how good Bynum will become, as that rests solely on 2 things: health and work ethic.
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lakers399
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:45 am Post subject: |
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| LakerJam wrote: | | 4OnTheFloor wrote: |
If Bynum was in Vegas or even at the Rocky Mountain league putting up those numbers then he would get credit. I expected to see more from him esp. against the weak talent that he's been going up against in the spl. |
The talent might not be great, but he's still putting up those stats against double and tripple teams. That's nothing to merely discount. |
Well, I've already pointed out the size difference(it's less teams, but that doesn't necessarily mean the competition is less, IMO, people are confusing the difference between "varied" and "tougher.") However, there's another difference between the Vegas league and Long Beach, that favors the Vegas league, and that's the no foul-out rule(well technically, you don't foul out here either, but the penalty is such that it forces you to avoid fouling.)
What people failed to realize is that Howard averaged 5.8 fouls a game in that SPL. If he fouled like that here, he would not have been able to play as much as he did, limiting his stats even further. |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:52 am Post subject: |
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^You're really going to bank on the officiating of the Summer Pro League when it's admitted to be training for amatuer refs?
Just look at the pro level. 3.4 fouls in 36 minutes.
Love it. You want to compare SPL stats when Howard's rookie season was excellent for a HS rookie.
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Freakout
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:03 am Post subject: |
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| I just don't get the point of purposely trying to piss a large group of posters off on this board and then run to another board and talk about it like it's a big (bleep) joke. People need to grow the hell up. |
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